A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?

[Mr. Death]

Suppose you want to make a powerful old wizard who isn't physically gifted or a skilled crafter.

If the Lore score is high enough that it's a good defense, why isn't this wizard just using the resources he already has to make an armor or block item for free?

[Llayne]

It's not really free. They take up enchanted item slots and they are limited use.

[Mr. Death]

It's not really free. They take up enchanted item slots and they are limited use.

I meant they don't cost refresh, they're something the wizard is getting built in. And they're not a roll, so there's no chance of, say, getting -2 or -4 on your stat for them.

Or, for the same refresh, you can get four enchanted item slots--plenty to make a defense item that's +1 or +2 your Lore with enough uses to get you through almost any fight.

[Tedronai]

If the Lore score is high enough that it's a good defense, why isn't this wizard just using the resources he already has to make an armor or block item for free?

Suppose you want to make a powerful old wizard who isn't [...] a skilled crafter.

(bolding added)

Or, maybe you want to have a character with high lore that doesn't use evocation/thaumaturgy or variants thereof?

[Mr. Death]

(bolding added)

Even without a single specialization in crafting, a wizard can make an enchanted item up to his Lore rating--being a wizard means you can do some crafting, even if you're not particularly "skilled" at it; just like how Harry can do veils, but he's not terribly good at them.

And Sanctaphrax specified a "powerful old wizard," so that's what I'm working off of.

Or, maybe you want to have a character with high lore that doesn't use evocation/thaumaturgy or variants thereof?

That makes little sense to me. Why wouldn't you use spellcasting of some kind if you're making a character based on Lore? That's kind of missing out on a huge chunk of that skill's usefulness.

Honestly, it seems like it's the most useful on a character who's already badly balanced. One who's going to be doing physical fighting--but doesn't have any good physical skills; has high Lore--but no spellcasting, or spellcasting skills high enough to be useful...so what are the character's high skills, then? From the sounds of it, this character probably needs a boost in physical defense, because they don't seem to have much of a way to physically defend themselves otherwise.

I'd support having AFSA only apply to physical attacks--frankly, it applying to social defense just doesn't make sense to me. The few times I've seen precognition occur in social interaction in fiction (Looking at you, Mrs. Cake), all it seems to do is give both parties a headache.

[toturi]

It really depends on what you mean by a skilled crafter though. But I reckon it is pretty difficult to have a powerful old wizard that isn't any good at crafting. I think at some point that powerful old wizard would have used enchanted items or would have had a specialisation in crafting (I mean if you had enough Refinements and you put them into Thaum, you'd have to put something into crafting sooner or later).

Looking from another perspective, I do not think that it is likely that a wizard would have lived long enough to be old and powerful without being physically gifted (even if it was Injun Joe "I can shapeshift into a bear" kind of physically gifted) or have some skill in crafting.

I think the choices given presumes that any other Power chosen would produce a character weaker than the character with AFSA. Choice B could have been "Choose not to spend the Refresh and get an extra Fate Point" or "Choose some other Power".

[Wordmaker]

That makes little sense to me. Why wouldn't you use spellcasting of some kind if you're making a character based on Lore? That's kind of missing out on a huge chunk of that skill's usefulness.

It depends on the concept. You could be playing an expert in supernatural lore and arcane knowledge who has no spellcasting ability whatsoever.

[Mr. Death]

It depends on the concept. You could be playing an expert in supernatural lore and arcane knowledge who has no spellcasting ability whatsoever.

That's a fairly specific instance, though--and I can think of other, potentially better ways to have physical defense with that character type.

Maybe use Lore to set up blocks via declarations (having a different monster's weakness on hand, for example).

Or just give them decent regular defenses, with a stunt to have Lore modify them by +1 when fighting something monstrous.

One of my players (a wizard who has a Block:7 defensive item anyway) has a stunt he came up with called, "I've Fought A Lot Of Monsters," that lets him use the character's Lore as defense, but only when fighting something clearly monstrous (vampires, ghouls, yes, regular guys with guns, no).

And the stunts would allow the character to keep the +2 mortal bonus, while the power wouldn't.

[Wordmaker]

Yup, I was just giving an example of a Lore-heavy character that might not be a spellcaster.

[cold_breaker]

Sooo... it seems like it IS balanced then. Other powers (nevermind stunts) can get you a similiar effect, but it's more powerful than your typical stunt thanks to eliminating a possible +2 mortal bonus. Seems fair.

Although I agree that it seems weird that it'd help in social defense - but I could see the argument both ways. If it bothers you, I'd say:

a) retune it into a mortal stunt and remove the second trapping or
b) change the second trapping. Possibly dodge rolls AND stealth rolls? There are others that seem like they make sense thematically.

[Tedronai]

Sooo... it seems like it IS balanced then. Other powers (nevermind stunts) can get you a similiar effect, but it's more powerful than your typical stunt thanks to eliminating a possible +2 mortal bonus. Seems fair.

It's not merely 'more powerful than your typical stunt'.  It is more than twice as powerful.  Probably somewhere in the 3-4x as powerful range.
It is probably among the top 3 most powerful stand-alone single-refresh powers printed in either book.

[Mr. Death]

How, exactly, are we determining its power? In terms of how many trappings it moves? In terms of the boost it gives compared to rolling the regular skill? In the case of the former, yes, it's considerably powerful.

In terms of the latter, though, it's only going to be very powerful in fairly specific builds--those where the player has considerably neglected both physical and social skills. And even then, the best the power's doing is bringing the character up to par with what others are rolling for defense. If the character's neglected the physical skills to the point where this power is most attractive, then by inference they probably have very low Fists, or Weapons scores (because otherwise they'd just use those to defend), ergo there's not much they're going to be doing on offense.

So in short, the way I look at it, this power is going to make its biggest difference on a character who's practically handicapped in physical/social conflict to start with.

[Lavecki121]

It's not merely 'more powerful than your typical stunt'.  It is more than twice as powerful.  Probably somewhere in the 3-4x as powerful range.
It is probably among the top 3 most powerful stand-alone single-refresh powers printed in either book.

Its not though...Its two stunts. which per rules you can move any trapping from one to another though you may need conditions depending on the skill.

[Tedronai]

Well, I had a nicely crafted post rebutting recent arguments, but alas, it is lost, so I'll have to make do with this cruder version, as I have things to do offline.

The most likely characters to take a trapping-mover stunt or power ARE those that have 'neglected' the skill normally associated with the trapping in question.  Coincidentally, they are also the characters that most benefit from such stunts/powers.  They are the ones that balance should be measured around, not some imbecilic character with Athletics near peak that nevertheless decided to use Lore as their defense rather than just boosting their athletics for the purposes of defense.


There are a total of 2 canon stunts, of which I am aware off hand, which are directly comparable to this power.  Both have a significant limitation.  I believe that there is a reason for this.  If anyone has reason to believe otherwise, and wishes to share that reasoning with the board, I would be glad to hear it.  Otherwise, claims of 'you don't necessarily need one' sound like nothing other than 'nuh-uh!' to my ears.

[Lavecki121]

True. Do you mind posting the stunts you are talking about? I cant seem to find them, not to say that they dont exits, but I cant make any point without knowing about the stunts.