The Dresden Files > DFRPG
Aren't Claws Too Weak?
Moriden:
I'm going to take my own advice here and take a step back, lets look at the precedents and the math. A character with inhuman strength which is incredibly likely for anyone who has claws. especially as Iago said we could think of claws as an upgrade to inhuman strength. could instead take. Off-Hand Weapon Training, Wall of Death, or Lethal Weapon. So why don't we compare these four stunts keeping the criteria you listed in mind and see what shakes loose.
I'm arbitrarily giving all of these things equal weighting. Claws
Claws one extra physical stress inflicted, one refresh, always usable, stacks, need high concept, cant be concealed.
+1 damage 1 Stacks 1 Always usable 1 need high concept -1 cant be concealed-1 = [1]
With inhuman strength +2 damage done [3]
Lethal Weapon
Lethal weapon is a flat weapon rating 2 when unarmed, and your opponent is unarmored and you need to qualify for it, one refresh , only works against some targets, stacks.
+2 damage 2 Stacks1 situationaly available -1 need other stunt -1 can be concealed 1 [1]
With inhuman strength +2 damage done [3]
Lethal weapon is also considered underpowered, at least according to the post dedicated to discussing underpowered stunts.
weapon training
A character with Inhuman strength could certainly duel wield basterd swords if he so choose which to my understanding is a weapon three. when using "weapon training" such a character is gaining 2 extra stress of damage on all weaponry attacks for one refresh, always available and stacks.
+2 damage 2 Stacks1 Always useable1 need weapon -1 can be concealed1 [5]
With inhuman strength +2 damage done [7]
Wall of Death
When using wall of death [and there's no restriction on how often you can use this other then having targets] your base weapon damage is multiplied by the lessor of your successes to hit or available targets. again for one refresh, always available and stacks.
+N damage N Stacks1 situationally usable-1 need weapon -1 can be concealed 1
Base [1-1]x3 =0 or [1-5]x3=12
With inhuman strength +2 damage done [1-1]x5 =0 or [1-5]x5=20
with inhuman strength and combining duel wield [1-1]x5 =0 or [1-5]x7=28/2 =14each
--- Quote ---where x equals the number of targets available-1 times the weapon rating used.
lets assume the max number of people in range at a time will be 5 and that we are using a weapon rating 3 bastard sword. so we will solve for the minimum and maximum amounts then.
--- End quote ---
In summation it appears that lethal blows and claws in no way stand up to duel wield or wall of death no less the two being combined. all of them appear to stack with each other and while claws is always available for use it cant be concealed and being obviously inhuman isn't exactly a good thing in the dresdenverse. lethal blows is only available if your opponent isn't wearing armor, and wall of death depends on the situation. however duel wield gives a flat 2 shifts of extra damage all the time[ especially if your designed to always have weapons on you or go the extra mile and enchant swords to teleport to your hands when needed]
My proposal would be to change claws to "Your unarmed attacks are considered to be Weapon rating one." at -0 refresh
and lethal blows to not require your opponent to be unarmored. at its current -1
Deadmanwalking:
--- Quote from: iago on April 25, 2010, 09:22:33 PM ---(There's also very little expectation that characters would take it as a solo power. It's an embellishment. If you like, look at it as an upgrade on the strength abilities.)
--- End quote ---
See, this is a problem. Because alot of concepts require claws, but in no way require any enhanced strength. So this screws over all the were-foxes, were-jackals, spider monsters, and other Claw-needing characters rather badly. Heck, one of the characters in my potential DFRPG game (the Changeling Fetch-spawn I've mentioned a few times) actually does have Claws sans Inhuman Strength, so it's not a 'never gonna happen' kinda thing here, it can and will come up. Heck, a character with Claws as their only power (as some sort of ki attack) is a reasonable concept...but not a viable one mechanically, since claws isn't close to worth the 3 Refresh this concept requires.
Which gets back to that whole "punishing people for their concept" thing, which is something the DFRPG mostly manages to avoid. And it's a legitimate punishment, too, since it's not situational or ever a weakness (and will thus never grant Fate Points)...it's just not as good as a 1 Refresh ability should be.
And what about the comparisons to Inhuman Strength? You've addressed comparisons to Lethal Weapon quite well, and I'm now willing to accept that Claws is likely equal to it (I missed the reduced effectiveness of stacking in Stunts)...but shouldn't it be better? I mean, Lethal Weapon stacks with Inhuman Strength, too, doesn't it? And that's the only thing Claws are basically ever going to stack with.
I'll refer again to all the benefits Inhuman Strength grants (well over 1 Refresh worth, honestly) in addition to the damage bonus (which will also still be better even if claws is improved since it applies to Weapons attacks, that's nearly double the effectiveness). Claws should really be being compared to other damage adding Powers not Mundane Stunts for play balance, shouldn't it?
And yeah, this'll make characters with claws a bit more dangerous. Precisely as much more dangerous as giving a character without claws a knife or brass knuckles (or a sword, if he's got a knife). Which is to say, a bit, but not an unreasonable amount.
Any change will also fit better thematically, IMO, it'll add in to that whole "if he got his hands on me I was dead." thing. Which, thematically, really should apply to things with claws even if they aren't superhumanly strong. I mean, the Alphas are given Inhuman Strength...but if you read the passages where Harry talks about how deadly they are it's usually the razored fangs he's talking about at least as much as the speed and strength.
Victim:
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on April 26, 2010, 03:37:46 AM ---
And yeah, this'll make characters with claws a bit more dangerous. Precisely as much more dangerous as giving a character without claws a knife or brass knuckles (or a sword, if he's got a knife). Which is to say, a bit, but not an unreasonable amount.
--- End quote ---
Or as if the character with the claws just picked up a better weapon. You don't want a Red Court Vampire to be using a crowbar or bat for extra damage instead of their natural attacks.
Deadmanwalking:
Eh. The Red Court using swords isn't actually inappropriate.
On the other hand, on a balance note, I'm doing my own breakdowns of how many Mundane Stunts some powers are worth:
Echoes of the Beast [-1]: +1 to two skills under certain circumstances, +1 to a third OR a new Skill Trapping. 2 or 3 total.
Cloak of Shadows [-1]: +2 to Stealth for all uses in darkness. Ignore darkness penalties. 1 and a half or so. Maybe 2.
Marked By Power [-1]: +1 to all social skills with supernaturals. At least 2, maybe more like 4, since it applies to all social skills.
Inhuman Strength [-2]: +3 lifting and breaking (3 stunts right there), +1 to grappling (1 more), Might always complements (we'll call this a freebie), +2 Stress to both Fists and Weapons attacks (Call it 2 more). About 6 total.
Incite Emotion [-1]: Adds a new skill trapping (inciting emotions to Deceit), adds a +2 bonus to that use. 2 Stunts.
Claws [-1]: +1 Stress damage to Fists attacks. 1 Stunt.
So, yeah, that's a thoroughly random sampling of powers (aside from Inhuman Strength, which I'll admit to having picked for effect). What do they all have in common? Being something like twice as good as Claws (in Inhuman Strength's case, 3 times as good per Refresh). These are obviously only rough equivalents...but I think my point stands.
luminos:
I think a lot of the supernatural powers are actually overpowered. An unconditional +1 to all attacks that stacks is actually okay with me for a -1 refresh power. Sure, if that is the only power your character has, then its a rip-off, and I'd ask the GM to house rule it as +0 or some such thing, but in most cases, its going to be one of many supernatural powers and the total offsetting effect of those powers makes the power very much worth it. Of course, I'm biased towards pure mortal character concepts, which are probably the weakest in the game at the moment, so any proposed power increases that privilege supernatural character concepts over pure mortal ones even more than the default is going to make me want to oppose it.
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