The Dresden Files > DFRPG
Aren't Claws Too Weak?
Moriden:
--- Quote ---This is not true on either count.
A) You can take this power if you want your wolf\cat\bear form to have any sort of weapon. The reasons are cosmetic\character driven. There is no rules reason to take them, but that does not mean there is no reason to take the power.
B) Mundane and supernatural powers being interchangeable is not a flaw in the system. In fact, the option to do one thing many ways seems like a strength to the system to me.
--- End quote ---
You are entitled to your opinion, however when you are dealing with a rules system that gives you an extremely limited number of "points" to use when designing your character, and you are looking at an easily obtainable, easily concealed, easily used, mundane item that statistically dose the exact same thing as something that cost 16% to 11% of the powers you can start with and even in the most high powered of games will still be 3-5% of your available powers there is something seriously wrong
you would never dream of forcing someone to devote 10% of there resources to obtaining a knife, or even a dozen knives. why are you saying you should have to for "claws" that are in no way more beneficial? if your arguing because there more "thematically?" appropriate, and the system is "inherently flexible" then why cant someone just have metal claws magically/technologically implanted for zero refresh?
Deadmanwalking:
--- Quote from: paul_Harkonen on April 25, 2010, 07:56:22 PM ---"Pack more of a wallop" is due to higher refresh costs.
-Your Story 158, emphasis mine
--- End quote ---
Yes. Two shifts, like say, +2 damage, maybe? I'm not suggesting the Stunt be better than the listed criteria here, just as good.
--- Quote from: paul_Harkonen on April 25, 2010, 07:56:22 PM ---I want to say that I agree that there is a power discrepancy between the powers. I disagree that Claws is vastly underpowered, and feel that either solution makes them more powerful than is intended. I also want to note that Breath weapon is ranged and a wpn 2, but that it does not stack with any other effect, giving claws an advantage in many cases. Plus your breath weapon is useless against a fairly large number of targets (no matter what element you pick).
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Yes, because lots of things are immune to acid, or lightning. Wait, no they aren't.
--- Quote from: paul_Harkonen on April 25, 2010, 07:56:22 PM ---I will say that a bonus to certain maneuvers would not be out of line. Another option is to add an upgrade to them "Supernaturally Sharp\hard". For one extra refresh you could add two points of shift (for a total of -2 refresh and +3 effect, a perfectly reasonable number in my mind) to the effect.
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So...why couldn't the original just have 2 shifts of effect? That's all I'm arguing for here.
--- Quote from: paul_Harkonen on April 25, 2010, 07:56:22 PM ---This is not true on either count.
A) You can take this power if you want your wolf\cat\bear form to have any sort of weapon. The reasons are cosmetic\character driven. There is no rules reason to take them, but that does not mean there is no reason to take the power.
--- End quote ---
Yes, such characters in fact require it. Which (as previously mentioned) is one of my primary reasons for having problems with it. A sub-par stunt that nobody ever needs to take is a much smaller deal than one large numbers of people are required to have.
--- Quote from: paul_Harkonen on April 25, 2010, 07:56:22 PM ---B) Mundane and supernatural powers being interchangeable is not a flaw in the system. In fact, the option to do one thing many ways seems like a strength to the system to me.
--- End quote ---
Mundane stunts and supernatural powers being interchangeable is a strength of the system. Mundane items and supernatural powers being interchangeable, while inevitable in the case of weapon powers, are not usually something to be looked for.
Falar:
Most of the time, if you're going to take a character that gets into the scrum of the fight, you'll generally have the option of Inhuman Strength - especially for shapeshifters. Let's say you're down to choosing between Inhuman Strength or Claws.
Claws - Weapon: 1, uses Fists, unconcealable. 1 Refresh.
Inhuman Strength - Weapon: 2, Fists or Weapons. +1 whenever Might modifies a skill. +1 to Might for grapples. +3 to Might when lifting or breaking inanimate objects. You look normal. 2 Refresh.
Even playing at the lowest refresh, Claws is never really an economical choice. Double the cost and you get MORE than double the use and, hey, you can still say you have horns or whatever. It functions basically the same.
Basically, you're penalizing people for using Claws in their character concept by making them have to pay for a subpar supernatural power. Or rewarding people who think that they want claws or horns but don't want to spend the Refresh on it so they go another route. Either way, if someone makes the choice that their character concept needs to have Claws, they'll be operating below the level of someone who worked around it or doesn't have a concept that comes close to Claws.
iago:
Claws are an edge case. They're comparing to a 1 refresh stunt, by and large. Here's what they get vs. a stunt that provides Weapon:2 in a particular situation:
- Applicable in practically all uses of Fists (the stunt has to be restricted)
- Stacking
Those are two things that you *can't* get with a stunt; you can't get something which applies all the time, and you can't stack multiple stunt effects together. One of those would be enough to make it a power-class thing. Since there are two, the bonus provided got knocked down a titch.
(There's also very little expectation that characters would take it as a solo power. It's an embellishment. If you like, look at it as an upgrade on the strength abilities.)
That said, ain't nothin' wrong with the houserules I've seen folks toss up (costing zero, or just boosting its bonus to 2). Either way you'll end up with more dangerous clawed adversaries in addition to making it make sense for your players and your table, so I figure that sort of hack is self-balancing.
Victim:
The problem with Claws is that its closest equivalents are mundane weapons that cost no refresh. And a knife isn't exactly uncommon or hard to conceal. And that's just the lowest weapon value. A Greatsword still costs no refresh but hits as a hard Claws+Inhuman Strength (granted, it's not really concealable, can be disarmed, and lacks the grappling/Might bonuses of Strength). If we want huge damage, it's easy to stack a big mortal weapon with a strength power and hit for 5 damage at a mere -2, or 7 at -4 (magical attacks can also do tons of damage but tend to be more skill intensive and has limited ammo).
Hmm, no other power does physical damage at better than 1 for 1. However, Incite Emotion seems like it can get +2 attack and Weapon 4 for -3 if I'm reading it correctly. That's actually better than 2 for 1. Plus it's an inobvious attack, can't be noticed when not in use, goes against the mental track which is often shorter than the physical one...
So maybe Claws at +2 for -1 is okay (or +1 attack, +1 damage). It still wouldn't be the same damage potential as the biggest weapons, but the gap is a bit narrower.
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