Author Topic: Discontinuity = clue? [GS sample ch spoilers]  (Read 42518 times)

Offline Ziggelly

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Re: Discontinuity = clue? [GS sample ch spoilers]
« Reply #105 on: July 18, 2011, 08:24:06 PM »
Nevermind... I answered my own question.
Nothing to see here.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 08:34:15 PM by Ziggelly »

Offline Barzai

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Re: Discontinuity = clue? [GS sample ch spoilers]
« Reply #106 on: July 18, 2011, 09:58:41 PM »
Thing is, it's more than just forgotten memories.  If you look at Serack's OP, you'll find that Mort had moved away from his California-style house by the beginning of DB.  So either Mort moved back so the place he had previously sold - just in time for Harry to go there (remember he writes down a specific address, not just "take me to Morty"), or *something else* is going on.  

My current take on things is that's it's an "Enterprise C" sort of scenario, i.e. Harry has been transported to a sort of alternate universe where "history" is different:

effects so far:

1) Mort never moved.
2) He's known about his grandfather/daughter for a while.
3) His hand never got burned.

Following this logic down a rabbit hole, all this suggests that the point of change took place between chapter 10 of Dead Beat (when he visits Mort) and the story of Death Masks (when Maggie is conceived).

So why?

- One possibility is that the "timeline shift" is actually an attempt by Uriel et al. to help Harry (i.e. make it easier for him to solve his murder and thereby get back).

- The other possibility I am currently playing with is that the murder weapon itself was a sort of Entropy Curse (possibly pointing toward Lord Raith as the culprit - which matches the timeline):

Consider that a turkey falling out of an airplane flying at 30,000 feet can take around a minute to hit the ground.  This means that in order for a falling turkey hit a moving target (especially when the target gets changed at the last moment), you need to somehow know in advance where your target will be standing.  Assuming we accept this, it means that an entropy curse can somehow reach back in time to achieve the currently desired effects.  Yadda Yadda.


Wait (if this has been brought up, I apologize - I haven't gotten to the end of the thread before posting):

What if the discrepancies are because Harry died before he was able to time travel in a later book.  As in, somewhere in the future, he would be going back and meddling in various ways (or he would send someone else back).  Therefore, he remembers certain things, but not others - and changes he would have gone back and done have been undone...

Ok - that all hurts.  The paradox, it burns...

[attempt to edit for clarity - capitalizing Changes in the second to last sentence was a cute play on book names, but really confusing.]
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 10:03:12 PM by Barzai »

Offline Serack

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Re: Discontinuity = clue? [GS sample ch spoilers]
« Reply #107 on: July 19, 2011, 02:02:50 AM »
Wait (if this has been brought up, I apologize - I haven't gotten to the end of the thread before posting):

What if the discrepancies are because Harry died before he was able to time travel in a later book.  As in, somewhere in the future, he would be going back and meddling in various ways (or he would send someone else back).  Therefore, he remembers certain things, but not others - and changes he would have gone back and done have been undone...

Ok - that all hurts.  The paradox, it burns...

[attempt to edit for clarity - capitalizing Changes in the second to last sentence was a cute play on book names, but really confusing.]

Oooh, oooh...

Here's what it might be.  Harry, as dead Harry, is living in a world where time is a different mechanism.  In the series up to Ghost Story, things have been effected by something that time traveler Harry from the future (likely within the story of Ghost Story) did.  Now, having died, time isn't effecting him in the normal "stream" and that timeline shift is no longer effecting him, and he is experiencing things as if that change had never happened.  He can't know about it, or paradoxageddon...

So Harry at some point in Ghost Story is likely to go back and do something that effects where Mort lives, so that he ends up moving out of the California import, and moves to the duplex, rectifying the timeline he is currently experiencing, back into the one he has experienced up to this point...

Or something like that.
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taishojojo

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Re: Discontinuity = clue? [GS sample ch spoilers]
« Reply #108 on: July 19, 2011, 01:01:12 PM »
I get that Harry will break all the laws... yadda yadda.

There's a thematic difference in going back in time to say... the dawn of time and say somewheres in your own lifespan +\- 100 years.

This whole time-y whime-y wibbly-wobbly is disturbing.

Offline Serack

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Re: Discontinuity = clue? [GS sample ch spoilers]
« Reply #109 on: July 19, 2011, 01:21:52 PM »
I get that Harry will break all the laws... yadda yadda.

There's a thematic difference in going back in time to say... the dawn of time and say somewheres in your own lifespan +\- 100 years.

This whole time-y whime-y wibbly-wobbly is disturbing.

Yah, I'm always very skeptical of any theory based off of time travel (including this one).  Because I usually think they are cheap, and are likely to introduce more problems in the story than they fix.

However, as the title implies, there is a serious, almost blatant discontinuity here.

On top of that we have the author strongly implying that Harry will break the law on time travel at some point in the series.  There is also a seperate comment comparing the opening timeline of this book to the first scene of BTTF2... which might be a big flashing arrow to time travel being the culprit for the discontinuity as well.

Speaking of magical solutions creating more problems than they fix.  I haven't plugged Brandon Sanderson's First Law of magic in a while.  It basically states that if a writer is writing a book with magic, that magic's ability to solve problems in the book has to be proportional to how well the readers understand how it works.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 01:24:55 PM by Serack »
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taishojojo

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Re: Discontinuity = clue? [GS sample ch spoilers]
« Reply #110 on: July 19, 2011, 03:11:38 PM »
Yah, I'm always very skeptical of any theory based off of time travel (including this one).  Because I usually think they are cheap, and are likely to introduce more problems in the story than they fix.

However, as the title implies, there is a serious, almost blatant discontinuity here.

On top of that we have the author strongly implying that Harry will break the law on time travel at some point in the series.  There is also a seperate comment comparing the opening timeline of this book to the first scene of BTTF2... which might be a big flashing arrow to time travel being the culprit for the discontinuity as well.

Speaking of magical solutions creating more problems than they fix.  I haven't plugged Brandon Sanderson's First Law of magic in a while.  It basically states that if a writer is writing a book with magic, that magic's ability to solve problems in the book has to be proportional to how well the readers understand how it works.
Like I said, theres time travel and theres time travel.... I'm ok with the Molly and Harry go to the dawn of time and she ascends to Mab-hood... that kinda time travel brings an entirely new setting... author is not modifying his/her current one.
Sandersons First Law... I just read it. probably explains why I dont like fantasy. I say that and one of my favorite books, coincidentally, Enchantment by Orson Scott Card; expressly because I liked the way he handled magic.

Offline Jaeh

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Re: Discontinuity = clue? [GS sample ch spoilers]
« Reply #111 on: July 19, 2011, 03:45:30 PM »
(2 cents for OP tho it's from way back, but whatever)

I just assumed he moved back for the threshold. maybe he knows something's up and all.

(ftr: haven't finished reading the rest of the posts)
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Offline toodeep

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Re: Discontinuity = clue? [GS sample ch spoilers]
« Reply #112 on: July 19, 2011, 05:59:30 PM »
I believe ghost dust is too heavy for a ghost to manipulate.  Remember how Agatha had to rip her arm off to move?

SHAZAM!!!! I think  you got it, especially cause of bob's eye color!!!!!

Edit:  Hold up... on second thought, I was thinking you ment he was in Dead Beat's time line, but that doesn't quite work...  I'm a little wierded out here, but I think you might be on to something.
Maybe Harry's ghost dust with depleted uranium in it is too heavy to move when actually attached to a ghost, but I was thinking other types might just essentially make object solid to those of the ghostly world.  Unlikely, but I was throwing it out there.

I like the idea that the entire situation at Mort's could be happening back during Dead Beat, after Cowl stole Bob, but before the darkhallow.  It make some sense that the necromancers would have been ani-mort, though it seems like they would have had bigger things on their minds at the time.  Of course, I haven't reread to check, but was there snow on the ground at the time?  Also, it totally goes in the face of what Sir Stu said.

Finally, I like the discussion of this possibly being the book where Harry time-travels.  After all, Harry is big on magic having to follow the rules of physics, and when you actually think of the physics of moving someone back in time (removing all that e=mc^2 from here to there) that would be staggering amounts of energy, but if he did it while a ghost, then there would be no movement of mass...  It also ties into comments about spirits being able to view time differently, while mortal bodies have limitations.

Offline itari

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Re: Discontinuity = clue? [GS sample ch spoilers]
« Reply #113 on: July 19, 2011, 06:10:02 PM »
This is because time does not exist indepedently. Events (defined as points in the timespace) can probably be perceived in a different way by non-human entities. The Gatekeeper is a strong candidate too.

http://does-time-exist.info/

Offline LewisH

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Re: Discontinuity = clue? [GS sample ch spoilers]
« Reply #114 on: July 26, 2011, 01:45:30 PM »
So now that the book is released (at least for some people) do we have a definitive answer about the discontinuities. I'd really like to know if it is a true plot point and not just Jim having forgotten something he had written in a previous book.

Offline Saspirilla

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Re: Discontinuity = clue? [GS sample ch spoilers]
« Reply #115 on: July 26, 2011, 02:01:27 PM »
Just sat and thread through the entire thread. Thanks for the headache, guys. I agree there is something strange about the blatant discontinuity (sp?) but the leap from there to time-travel is astonishing  :o

T minus 3 hours until I get my copy of GS. Then we'll see  ;D
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Offline AcornArmy

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Re: Discontinuity = clue? [GS sample ch spoilers]
« Reply #116 on: July 26, 2011, 08:28:27 PM »

[ Spoilers which include the rest of Ghost Story beyond the Sample Chapters. ]

So now that the book is released (at least for some people) do we have a definitive answer about the discontinuities. I'd really like to know if it is a true plot point and not just Jim having forgotten something he had written in a previous book.
(click to show/hide)

ETA: Edited to spoilerize my reply, as knnn suggested. I'd forgotten that the subject was only for the sample chapters.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 08:46:42 PM by AcornArmy »
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Offline JEdward

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Re: Did the Beta's notice this (GS sample chapters spoilers)
« Reply #117 on: July 26, 2011, 08:36:06 PM »
Somethings up. 

Now the thing is, Harry is at the address that he gave Capt. Jack.  If he isn't remembering the events of DB (or at least those particular ones) He might not remember the correct address...


Or maybe Harry is omniscient at this point, and doesn't know it.

Offline knnn

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Re: Discontinuity = clue? [GS sample ch spoilers]
« Reply #118 on: July 26, 2011, 08:39:04 PM »
Edit:  I'd rather not post anything here even resembling spoilers.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 08:41:00 PM by knnn »
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Offline itari

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Re: Discontinuity = clue? [GS sample ch spoilers]
« Reply #119 on: July 26, 2011, 08:40:44 PM »
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 08:46:04 PM by itari »