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Messages - umdshaman

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31
DFRPG / Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« on: April 11, 2014, 06:25:12 PM »
Seriously, why do you care?

Because I made a suggestion, which I was pretty clear about, but you keep pushing "self-sponsored" magic and arguing because my suggestion doesn't fit your pet model. And, frankly, because you act like yours is the only opinion that matters. And make no mistake that it is an opinion. Why do you care?

I object to MOST of what Sponsored Magic does as a mechanism for specialization (as I've stated elsewhere but I will summarize one final time and then I am done explaining it).
* Sponsor debt. You disagree with my reasons but I've stated them pretty clearly. Without the outside agenda, this is literally just borrowing against future Fate Points. Sponsor debt has a catch to that borrowing that self-sponsored debt does not.
* Bonuses. There is already a way to bigger numbers. I think creating a class of powers specifically to circumvent the downsides of those methods is a bad idea.
* Evothaum. I'm marginally okay but gets overused and isn't terrifically useful for most things. I think for a lot of Thaumaturgy, this probably isn't even necessary. A 1-power-draw spell with materials at hand could take as little as a minute; which even in combat is not a huge chunk of time (in my opinion).
* Special abilities. And here's where the other big problem comes in. The book seems pretty clear on how extreme specialization should be modeled. You CAN do things like shapeshifting or worldwalking with spells, but if you want to do them with a snap of your finger (and not create a nuclear explosion while you're at it, in the case of shifting) then you take a dedicated power. Superior Pyromancy? Breath Weapon. Superior Worldwalking? Worldwalker. Same basic idea (obviously not comprehensive, as is), but no stress or magic rolls required; which is a huge benefit. And let me just point out if you tried to model shapeshifting with "self-sponsored" magic, you'd just be begging for a world of hurt.
* Cost. A lot of them should really only affect Thaumaturgy or Evocation but because people are modelling them after Sponsored Magic, they make it both and throw in Evothaum just because, ratcheting up the cost. On the reverse side of this, Sponsored Magic can only be used to further the sponsors agenda and the extra benefits only affect the sponsored magic, so adding these features to normal magic should probably cost a pretty hefty chunk more.
* Ambiguity. There's a lot of problems with using a model to represent something very different from what it originally represented but the biggest one here is that some of the way Sponsored Magic works is left ambiguous. When you base an entire model on a particular interpretation or on a 'by the way' and ignore a lot of the very specific 'this is how this works' (assuming its just flavoring, instead), you create a barrel of issues.

32
DFRPG / Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« on: April 11, 2014, 07:21:59 AM »
Anyway, depending on how you count that's either one third or one half of the canon examples which don't fit the model you propose for all Sponsored Magic
Depending on how I count Place of Power is one or none. I count it as none, because external source with an agenda even if its not sentient (ley lines).

And yeah, you've provided other methods. But not a "better" method, one which would make self-sponsored magic unnecessary.
"Better" is entirely subjective. Frankly, I think I have given examples of methods that are mechanically and fictively superior to "self-sponsored" magic. Meanwhile, you haven't given me any reasons at all why "self-sponsored" magic is necessary at all.

33
DFRPG / Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« on: April 11, 2014, 05:20:40 AM »
But not in this setting. Or in the games people play. So something more is needed.
[....]
It's not actually very specific narratively. Only half of the canon examples are actually clearly provided by a sponsor. Place Of Power magic comes from a place, Kemmlerian Necromancy never mentions an actual sponsor, and Soulfire is weird.
Place of Power has a genius loci as the sponsor. My thoughts on Kemmlerian Necromancy are in here, but although the RAW doesn't specify who the sponsor is it is very clear that there must be a sponsor. I also think Soulfire should not have been sponsored magic since it just doesn't fit from what we've seen so far, but its also clear that Soulfire (or God) has an agenda in this context. What the RAW DOES say is that "sponsored magic is the name we're giving to spellcasting that draws on power sources other than the caster himself." There's also "In order to gain the benefits
of sponsored magic, the spell you’re casting must align with the agenda of the sponsor." And finally, "Every type of sponsored magic comes with an agenda of some sort[....] The GM should know what that agenda is whether or not she chooses to share some or all of it with the character in question."

So however you design it "self-sponsored" magic isn't Sponsored Magic, because its not actually sponsored. I've provided several methods for specializing that don't involve "self-sponsored" magic and allowing a player to keep borrow against future Fate Points without some catch is just bad practice.

A ward isn't just a magical block.
"A ward is basically a very potent version of a block using Thaumaturgy instead of Evocation." But no, not just.

Is it supposed to be usable as an action in combat?
Technically, yes.

How long does it last?
Scene, until broken.

Honestly, I knocked it out in a few minutes to show you how one could make a specialization power that fits in with the way other magic specializations are portrayed in the book. And one more tool for the OP to work with if their even still watching the thread.

34
DFRPG / Re: Whispering forest
« on: April 11, 2014, 04:23:28 AM »
I'm just guessing here, but if your objective here is to give the players a sense of tension then attempting to mechanize "fear" is going to have the opposite effect. A critical element of fear is a lack of control. So, maybe crank some spooky music (chanting in Latin can work well), but really just keep them responding verbally. Keep the pressure on in an indirect way so that the players are so busy trying to figure out how to deal with the situation that they never think of picking up the dice. It's worked well for me on the few occasions I've needed it.

35
DFRPG / Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« on: April 11, 2014, 02:03:57 AM »
That's just bigger numbers. For people whose specializations give them more interesting advantages, it won't work.
Which is all specialization amounts to in this system.

So...custom Powers? How's that different from using a Superior Something Power?
Because Sponsored Magic is something very specific narratively and comes with a very specific set of effects (on all Sponsored Magic) that I don't think are particularly appropriate to specialization. Better to just create the extra abilities as their own power.

But people with ordinary Ghost Speaker can already seek out specific ghosts with Contacts.
So it does. I was looking at in the PDF and didn't realize the power went onto the next column. It still adds a couple things; use on spirits and Lore substitution.

Ghostbuster is a bit vague. Not sure exactly how it's meant to work.
Needed to mimic the methods of summoning and binding. Basically its just a very short Common Ritual (like making a ring of salt or some such) that creates a Ward to contain spirits and/or ghosts. And a ward is just a magical block, so you can phrase it that way if you want. So, its some parts knowledge and some parts trickery but I figured it could also be a good way to represent some forms of 'religious' magic (hence Conviction).

I like Abjuration. Don't think it really needs the usage limitation...nobody's gonna break the game by strengthening the border to the Nevernever. Especially not when it's such a small bonus.
Well... you might be right, especially if I knock the duration down to 'scene' but the typical barrier strength is Superb which could be improved on pretty well. The real trick to this effect is if you've got something like the Wild Hunt (or even something on a smaller scale) you could probably use it keep the spirits from coming through in the first place.

Cold Read is the strongest effect here, and I guess it's okay. I'm not a huge fan, mostly because I'm touchy about social Powers. The system and setting alike are light on them, I think it's best to keep things that way.
Marked by Power does it for all social rolls (at +1). Figured limiting it by target and condition would make it pretty equal. The power is either 2 or 3 refresh and this one is almost certainly worth 1 on its own.

Seems weak. Most of the bonuses are basically useless.
Also, you should include the abilities of the minion in the Power itself.

Yes, yes they are. It's basically there as a set-piece for the Spirited Negotiator to have a go-between in Place of Power. Someone could basically remove all of the bonuses and make it a [-0], I guess.

And I totally agree that Dresden Files needs comprehensive minion (or companion or whatever) rules for this. But the whole post was like a 5 minute effort. I think Stunts in Spirit of the Century are about 1.5 refresh so maybe borrow those and use the Spirit of the Season updates? *shrug* Either way it wasn't critical to the point.

36
DFRPG / Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« on: April 11, 2014, 12:10:11 AM »
Method 1 [min -2]: Ritual: Animancy (you gain the Ritual power for all thaumaturgy related to spirits where spirits are a class of non-physical Nevernever entity similar to demons or ghosts.) Optionally Refinements in Foci allowing for off-the-cuff spells up to twice your Lore rating. Optionally Evothaum if your GM is a stickler and you want to be able to cast Animancy rituals quickly.

Method 2 [min -3]: Thaumaturgy with a specialization in Animancy. Optionally Refinements for specializations and/or Foci. Specializations may take bonuses above twice Lore but require a more well-rounded character. Optionally Evothaum, as above.

Method 3 [min -3?]: Ghost Speaker. Spirited Negotiator. This isn't as powerful, overall, as using spells would be but it does not cause the character to take mental stress which is a huge bonus if your character specializes in dealing with spirits. Optionally, many characters built with this will likely have some sort of House Spirit. Optionally, you may take Stunts since Stunts stack with the bonuses provided below. (eg: +2 to Conviction when containing a spirit or ghost. +4 to Rapport when dealing with a specific wind spirit).

Spirited Negotiator [-2?]
Musts: You must have Ghost Speaker.
Ghost Sense. You may use Contacts or Lore to find a specific ghost or spirit, or one who meets your needs. This will not FORCE a spirit to come to you, so you may need to go "out and about" (per the Contacts skill). You might try sending another spirit to do this on your behalf, of course, but who knows how that might work out.
Ghostbuster. Once per scene (or 15 minutes, where more appropriate), you may use Lore or Conviction to create a Ward to contain a hostile ghost or spirit. You gain a +2 bonus on this roll if the conflict takes place in a location specifically prepared for containment (such as your laboratory or sanctum).
Abjuration. Once per session (or day, where more appropriate), you may use Lore or Conviction to strengthen the barrier to the Nevernever as an action. If your roll is higher, your result becomes the new barrier rating in this location until sunrise.
Cold Read. Due to your experience dealing with non-corporeal entities from the other side you have become very good at determining what they want. +2 to all social rolls involving spirits or ghosts, as long as you are trying to come to an agreement.

House Spirit [-1]
Sometimes a spirit will develop an attachment to a particular location; often a house. It is also possible to create this attachment intentionally (through True Magic) although doing so without the spirit's permission will often provide more curse than blessing. Such spirits are attached to the threshold of a location and (in fact) feed off of it.
Musts: You must take an aspect relating to the spirit and its location of residence. You must either be a resident of this location or it must have no residents.
Loyalty. House Spirits first dedication are always to the place they inhabit and the "family" who lives there. The spirit cannot take any hostile action except against invading spirits or overtly hostile forces.
Symbiotic Spirit. A House Spirit feeds on the threshold of a location, however as long as the spirit resides there, the threshold can never fully decay. The threshold is considered to be +1 (min 1).
Spirit Buddy. A typical House Spirit is often little more than a mote of light or gust of wind, serving small tasks around the house; such as lighting candles or sweeping up dust. These effects are little more than scenery pieces. They are also able to go anywhere outside their residence on (though they usually don't have any reason to) but must return by sunrise.
Tied to the Threshold. The House Spirit can also be more firmly tied to the threshold. When taking this power, you may voluntarily reduce the threshold of the residence (min 1) to increase the power of the spirit. Doing this should severely limit the spirit's ability to leave the threshold. How exactly this works is up to you and the GM, though a point of threshold being worth a skill point or two seems reasonable.

A 'default' house spirit has a single mild consequence and 3 skill points which do not need to follow normal spending rules. However, the spirit only has access to the skills it has points in.

I tried to make this also be a reasonable way to stat out Bob, although if we're using these rules Bob's skull is probably an Item of Power who's only effect is to create a very large threshold. I also didn't want to add a whole bunch of twitchy mechanics to a rules-light game for the 'minion' NPC so apologies if it seems a little vague.

37
DFRPG / Re: Jinni wish granting power
« on: April 10, 2014, 06:53:43 AM »
Has anyone created a custom power for Jinni wish granting thaumaturgy, also I was wondering if a negative wish granting jinni npc (granting what they asked for but not what they wanted) in a campaign would require lots of modification of the system to work?
I'm just going to put it out there that Evocation and Thaumaturgy are representations of mortal magic. There's a reason that a bunch of NPCs in the book are designated as having "Plot device-level magic".  That said...

What sort of Djinni are you looking at?

Disney's Aladdin: I think Hick's Sponsored Magic is pretty much perfect for a PC channeling the powers of a Genie although the various elements probably don't play into it.

Folklore (ie: Solomon): Jinn are beings of smokeless flame who are still capable of interacting with their environment. In the Qu'ran, Solomon binds them as servants until his death. In other traditions they are bound into bottles which force them to perform 3 tasks (important distinction) for whoever releases them. In those traditions, the 3rd task must be to return to the bottle (as they are already free upon opening the bottle). In either case I would suggest building the Jinn without any form of spellcraft at all; as this often where the drawback in "wishing" comes from. You want to be rich? The Jinn goes out and gets your riches. Of course those riches have to come from somewhere...

38
DFRPG / Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« on: April 10, 2014, 06:23:40 AM »
Normal Compels. It's explained in the Power writeup.

Part of the inherent drawback of Sponsored Magic (as I understand it) is the threat of being forced to obey someone else's agenda so that doesn't really work for me. What I'm getting at is that there are better ways to represent specialization than Sponsored Magic without an agenda.

Either way, the OP now has my perspective and my reasoning and can decide if that's useful to them or not. Really, that's the only point of posting after all.

39
DFRPG / Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« on: April 09, 2014, 06:00:58 PM »
That's exactly what self-sponsored magic is. A specialized power representing an unusual spellcasting ability.

Not precisely. Sponsored Magic provides a very specific set of benefits across the board. The idea of using it to boost an existing magical ability is sort of an edge case. The idea of self-sponsored magic at all is something that, as far as I can tell, was essentially created by these forums. Either way, the Sponsored Magic power's benefits include the ability to accrue debt. But what does self-sponsored magic accrue debt toward? If there is no sponsor, then there can be no external agenda, so there is no meaningful mechanical impact. In fact, the unusual spellcasting abilities are NOT represented by Sponsored Magic in the book and I'm pretty sure this is why. Refinements could garner you the same bonuses, so if you created an "Evothaum" power most of these "self-sponsored" magics wouldn't be needed at all. I realize you're going to disagree with me, of course, but it doesn't make me wrong.

40
DFRPG Resource Collection / Re: Sponsored Magic Master List
« on: April 09, 2014, 04:24:01 AM »
Well, if I read it correctly, it does that. But it also costs you an enchanted item slot for EVERY exchange. So (considering you need Superb Discipline to safely draw 1 power at a time) you can build a safe custom item on-the-fly for a lot more than it would have cost you at character creation, or you can risk setting off a small nuclear detonation by pulling your average every exchange.

41
DFRPG / Re: Stunts vs Powers
« on: April 07, 2014, 09:12:41 PM »
My 8(+2) Refresh Pure Mortal seems to stack up perfectly well against the 10 Refresh Wizard and 10 Refresh Shapeshifter in our tabletop game, and I've seen some pretty amazing pure mortal builds on these forums.  That said, my mortal is specialized in social combat, and there aren't many Powers that effect that, so I can't speak to whether or not my experience is typical.

Why is your character operating at a different power level? That kind of defeats the point, as I understand it.

42
DFRPG / Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« on: April 07, 2014, 09:11:10 PM »
Disclaimer: The whole self-sponsored thing rubs me the wrong way. It tends to just represent a magical specialization which is achievable with refinements. A lot of it seems to be based on Kemmlarian Necromancy but as I understand the article, it's not "self-sponsored" (nor is it actually sponsored by Kemmlar) but rather by death itself (or at least spirits of death) who are pretty willing to let anyone who can figure out how use their power.

What's the idea behind it, though? That tends to have a pretty big effect on what makes sense.

For instance, if you're looking to create a someone who uses spirits to power their magic in the Dresden Universe, you're probably looking at standard sponsored magic with a particular spirit as your sponsor. At the GMs discretion, you might even be able to contract with multiple spirits by taking Refinement.

If you're looking at someone who (like Harry) specializes in contracting with Spirits, you might just be looking at a specialized power (like Worldwalker or True Shapeshifting) that gives bonuses to ward/summoning/binding and negotiations. Or, alternatively, just using a collection of stunts and Refinements. Then any cost to the spirits' help is a function of the narrative rather than an arbitrary agenda.

43
DFRPG / Re: Stunts vs Powers
« on: April 07, 2014, 06:06:34 PM »
Powers are stronger than stunts, which is why pure mortals get a refresh bonus. Most powers aren't going to be significantly stronger but some are just so far outside the realm of what stunts can do that it can be hard to compare. Mortals can still play with supers and will tend to be better able to specialize or round out. However, as the power level goes up the disparity will start to become more noticeable (which is probably why the book stops at Submerged).

EG: Worldwalker is 2 refresh.
It gives you a special ability that can't be accomplished without taking Powers.
In addition it does the following things that stunts can do:
Creates a new trapping for Lore and Investigation.
Gives a +2 bonus to Survival and Lore under specific circumstances.
Moves a trapping from Survival to Lore under specific circumstances.

So, depending on how the character is built Worldwalker is probably worth at least 3 refresh of stunts, plus it has a minor ability stunts couldn't give you.

44
DFRPG / Re: What Exactly Is A Freeholding Lord?
« on: April 07, 2014, 05:58:08 PM »
Two points:

I'm pretty sure the Laws of Hospitality only apply if an invitation was issued. You are not REQUIRED to invite a supernatural entity into your home to parley with them; but if you do, guest rights probably apply.

I'm also pretty sure the Laws of Hospitality aren't actually part of the Accords, but rather old traditions. I realize for many people Grave Perils is going to be a sticking point for this, but as I interpreted it; Bianca's invitation was binding because of the loss of face; not the Accords. Any interaction with the Accords would be because she gave her oath to it in the invitation. Harry, on the other hand, didn't start a war by violating the Laws of Hospitality but rather because he initiated an 'unprovoked' attack on the Red Court (because Susan is not one of the White Council's charges).

45
How about "umdshaman"'s aspect/tag notion?
I'm not really sure what you're going for with this?  Putting an aspect on a person is not a straight 3-shift effect, but the power cost is instead determined by their resistance (per relevant skill determined by the GM). A compel (or invoke for effect) is essentially a conflict concession without the actual conflict taking place. In exchange for not having to have the conflict take place, you spend (or receive) a fate point/free tag. Of course, when you invoke for effect, the GM is free to say "that doesn't work here" in which case a good GM is probably gonna let you keep your free tag for use with a roll later.

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