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Messages - Elegast

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47
         When I read the end of CD and Maeve mentions that she will not be Mab’s falcon anymore, I realized that it was at least the third similar reference I felt like I could remember reading in TDF. I knew that there was some poem out there about how the center cannot hold and things fall apart, about entropy and the end of the world. Finally I decided to figure it out. Here is the poem—it’s from William Butler Yeats and it’s titled “The Second Coming”:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

         Doesn't this sound like it could be applied to the DF apocalpyse? I’m no Yeats scholar, but in a bit of googling I came across the fact that Yeats spent years crafting an elaborate, mystical theory of the universe. This theory issued in part from Yeats’s lifelong fascination with the occult and mystical. He believed that history can be laid out as two conical spirals, one inside the other, so that the widest part of one of the spirals rings around the narrowest part of the other spiral, and vice versa. Yeats believed that this image (he called the spirals “gyres”) captured the contrary motions inherent in history. Yeats believed that the world was on the threshold of an apocalypse, as history reached the end of the outer gyre and began moving along the inner gyre. In other words, the world’s trajectory along the gyre of science and democracy was coming apart, like the frantically widening flight of the falcon that has lost contact with the falconer; the next age will take its character not from the gyre of science and democracy, but something else entirely and opposite. Of course, the poem was written around 1921 and so likely had more to do with WW1 than predicting the DF apocalypse to come  :D, but it’s kind of cool to think about the possibility that Yeats, like the DF version of Stoker and Lovecraft, may have understood more than the rest of the world.

         Also, rather than just being a sad echo of my days as an english major, I started this thread to see if anyone picked up on these or other references. IIRC, Murphy said something to Harry in SF or FM about how the center cannot hold. I think Harry mentions “falcons and falconers” at some point, but I have no idea where. And then we have Maeve in CD telling Mab she will not be her falcon anymore.

        Are there anymore potential “The Second Coming” references in the Dresden Files? Anyone care to formulate a WAG about Yeats being prophetic??

That's so cool.  8)

48
Site Suggestions & Support / Re: captchas from hell
« on: January 23, 2013, 09:23:29 PM »
I had to re captcha like 8 times to make a post because no human could read them.

This site has the worst captcha's I have ever seen

That's normal.

Computers are getting better and better at reading captchas. The older, easier versions are unsecure.

49
DF Reference Collection / Re: [Spoilers for all books] Theories index
« on: January 14, 2013, 05:06:40 PM »
Can I still suggest my own theories for consideration?

Of course.

50
DF Reference Collection / Re: [CD spoilers] Cowl = Simon reference thread
« on: January 14, 2013, 01:42:44 PM »
I think this bears repeating. I love Simon=Cowl but the OP makes a somewhat baffling assumption. Elegast, could you present your rational?

Sure.

I'm not saying that Simon must be Cowl. I'm just saying that if Cowl is a known character, then it must be Simon.

And it's far from certain that any other SC-council level wizard exists: in Dead Beat Harry says:
Quote from: Dead Beat
An offensive action like a full assault from the Senior Council, the seven oldest and strongest wizards on the planet, had been long overdue.
Luccio says:
Quote
"And frankly, we must protect the lives of the Senior Council. So long as they are concealed from the enemy and still able to take action, they are a dangerous force. Together they wield more power than any hundred members of the Council, and it can be concentrated with deadly effect,

Which seems to imply that the SC is the Top 7 among wizards.

51
DF Reference Collection / Re: [Spoilers for all books] Theories index
« on: January 13, 2013, 05:42:51 PM »
Do new theories get considered for addition to this reference?

Yes.

52
Calendar Event Discussion / Bitten Books Q&A
« on: January 04, 2013, 03:25:48 PM »
The Bitten Books Q&A for Cold Days was cancelled. Any chance it will be rescheduled, and if yes, when?

53
DF Reference Collection / Re: [Spoilers for all books] Theories index
« on: January 04, 2013, 12:31:48 AM »
when jim had to switch DB and PG he intentionally created a time loop in the books, behind the scenes.
source-source-wizard nelson

Elegast i invoke thee to look at my updated theory.(i explain it better)

I will look into it.

54
DF Reference Collection / Re: [Spoilers for all books] Theories index
« on: January 04, 2013, 12:12:25 AM »
Quote
The context:

Does that help?

Thx.

Quote
Also, when you say that the WoJ doesn't exist, do you mean that it's like the "black court/council typo" WoJ?

No. The part about Drakul  being son of a Dragon was in a the question, not the answer from Jim...

Quote
Oooh that works pretty nicely (could use a little cleaning up though).  One possible roadblock is that we'd have to reserve a TON of posts considering how many theories like that there are and how many could come in the future. Perhaps some theories could be in the same post as other's?

Not such a big problem: you can put several theories in the same post and do several threads. And I can split/merge threads if necessary. Reserving 10 posts would probably be largely sufficient.



55
DF Reference Collection / Re: [Spoilers for all books] Theories index
« on: January 03, 2013, 08:35:53 PM »
I'm wondering how to add sources for theories that only have a slice of text from the RPG to support them. I could use the method I proposed at the top of this post but creating a thread for such a small piece of evidence seems wastefull...getting threads like them into the DF Reference Collection would just clutter it up. Maybe we could make one thread for all the theories that only have small amounts of evidence (this could also work for Speculative and Highly Speculative theories)?

We could. It would be cool to make one post per theory. I had the same idea, and already have made such a post as an experiment:

Faeries speak gaelic
(Arjan, Elegast)


Fairies and language
Quote from: Changes
someone whispering to me, something in a tongue I didnt understand-but I knew my queen's voice
Quote from: Summer Knight
Maeve drew herself up, her face shining with a sudden terrible beauty. She lifted her right hand, ring finger and thumb both bent, and murmured something in a liquid, alien tongue.
Quote
My godmother spoke something, a string of liquid syllables in a tongue I could not understand-but it made my knees turn rubbery and my fingers suddenly feel weak.

About speaking Russian:
Quote from: Changes
"Harry", he[Toot-toot] said, as if the question made no sense at all, "you just speak it"
Quote from: Wikipedia
The word fairy derives from Middle English faierie (also fayerye, feirie, fairie), a direct borrowing from Old French faerie (Modern French féerie) meaning the land, realm, or characteristic activity (i.e. enchantment) of the legendary people of folklore and romance called (in Old French) faie or fee (Modern French fée). This derived ultimately from Late Latin fata (one of the personified Fates, hence a guardian or tutelary spirit, hence a spirit in general); cf. Italian fata, Portuguese fada, Spanish hada of the same origin.
Fata, although it became a feminine noun in the Romance languages, was originally the neuter plural ("the Fates") of fatum, past participle of the verb fari to speak, hence "thing spoken, decision, decree" or "prophetic declaration, prediction", hence "destiny, fate". It was used as the equivalent of the Greek Μοῖραι Moirai, the personified Fates who determined the course and ending of human life.
[...]
Latin fata comes from the Indo-European root *bhã- "speak".
From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy#Etymology

Gaelic

Quote from: Wikipedia
Most consonants have both palatal and non-palatal counterparts, including a very rich system of liquids, nasals and trills (i.e. 3 contrasting l sounds, 3 contrasting n sounds and 3 contrasting r sounds).
From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic#Pronunciation

The daoine sìth are described in gaelic litterature after all:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhe

Harry doesn't speak gaelic:
Quote from: Death Mask
Ebenezar spat something in what I presumed was Gaelic.

Mac Aodha (MacCoy) means son of Fire in Gaelic! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCoy_(surname)) I wonder if Harry's predilection for fire is a common trait in his bloodline.

 Mab and Maeve are both forms of an old irish name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medb

56
DF Reference Collection / Re: [Spoilers for all books] Theories index
« on: January 03, 2013, 08:21:57 PM »

Quote
What do you think of me creating "compilation threads" for each of the theories that don't have sources (and are either Strong evidence Very strong evidence) and aiming to get them into the DF Reference Collection? I'd like to at least try. Not having sources for those theories bugs me (I may also try ones for Speculative if the previous attempt works).

That would be a great idea.

Quote
If I created a new poll and it goes the other way, would you than change it (though there's the slight issue that I don't know how to create a poll...)?

Sure. Click on the button "New Poll", near the new topic button to create  a poll.


Quote
You don't trust me  :'( :P.

I do.  ;) I just want to see the context.

Quote
Requesting that you also add "(the walker could also be Nemesis)" beside it.

Done.

Quote
You forgot to add my name to it (how do you do that anyways?)

Like that:
Code: [Select]
[sup][url=http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php?action=profile;u=40787]Cenphx[/url][/sup]
Will add your name.

Quote
Which one?

It doesn't exist....  :-[

Quote
Also, could you add the "Drakul is the scion of a demon"? (

Done.

57
DF Reference Collection / Re: [Spoilers for all books] Theories index
« on: January 01, 2013, 04:33:29 PM »
No one cares about my previous post? :'(.

Just read it. I was too busy having fun last week.  ;D

58
DF Reference Collection / Re: [Spoilers for all books] Theories index
« on: January 01, 2013, 04:29:19 PM »
Quote
General
Maybe this is just happening to me but whenever I click the sources links they always direct me to the 1st page of the relevant thread. Wouldn't it be more convenient for the links to direct you to the page in which the theory is proposed?

It's on my to-do list.

Quote
If "only theories which have already been widely discussed/criticized by the community can be nominated" than why do many of the theories here not have links? Even if we can't find the original thread it was discussed in, shouldn't we at least be able to find a thread it was discussed in (presumably the one which made us decide that the theory has been widely discussed/criticized? Even if there are multiple threads discussing it and we can't find all of them, even one link is better than no links. Should we really have theories with no links here?

Yes.

Some old theories are widely known and deserve to be included, yet sometimes there is no living thread about them. But the main reason is a practical one: putting a link for each theory would demand an LOT of work. There are many theories, spread in many posts, and old threads are deleted after one year so the links would keep breaking and would require constant attention. And most of the post introducing a theory contain little more info than a one-sentence summary.

I included all the links to threads in the DFRC, as they won't disappear, and are of very high quality.

You'll notice that I include links to some threads in the DF spoilers section. I do so with threads I believe have a good chance of ending in the DFRC, or if I can directly copy-paste the link. It's basically an informal nomination thread.

Quote
Black Court
I would like to request that the "there is a link between the Black Court and the outsiders" rating have a bracketed sentence next to it that says that the theory changes to Highly Speculative if Harry meant Black Council and Black Court is a typo.

Done. I rated thinking there was a WOJ about the typo.

Quote
Blackstaff
I checked both the links to the "Blackstaff is MW's walking stick" theory and I don't think it deserves the Very Strong Evidence rating. Jim said that the WC stole the blackstaff from someone who really wants it back. This...does not narrow things down. The only indicator that we have that MW is the one who wants it back is that Jim is a self proclamed  "lazy writer". I'm not saying that the theory isn't strong, just that it doesn't deserve Very Strong Evidence status. I think that it should be changed to blue.

It's slightly overrated. But there is already a poll about it so I prefer to respect the results.

Quote
Blood Rites
Theory:The thing seen behind Kincaid could be a symbolic representation of Drakul.
EDIT: I think this quote from page 189 of the DFRPG: Our World, under the "Mavra" entry:
Pretty much debunks the "Mavra under veil seen in Sight behind Kincaid" theory.

I look into it, I don't have my copy of the DFRPG close at hand.


Quote
HW belts
Why is Raith making the HW belts rated Strong Evidence? We have seen no indication that he is a practitioner (in fact, he often recruits women to do magic for him) and Harry himself says that only about 3 people in the entire White Council could make them.

Done. I rated it before the Cenphx's threads.

Quote
Mothers Winter/Summer
The "they are God" theory doesn't have a rating (and since the G is capitalized, shouldn't it say the White God?).

Done.

Quote
Parasite
Theory: the parasite is Nemesis (this doesn't have to contradict the Walker theory either).

Added.

Quote
Swords
Theory: Faith Astor is going to take up Fidelacchius (link: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35837.0.html) I know it doesn't have 3 pages of discussion but hey, at least I have a link.


Added.

Quote
Outsiders
The third Walker could also be called He-Who-Walks-Between.

Added.

Quote
Drakul
On page 77 of the DFRPG: Our World, under the "half demons" entry, the books says:
Note that they don't say he could be one or that he's probably one. They outright say he's one. Does this downgrade the rating of the "Drakul is the scion of a dragon" theory?

No. The rating is already low, and there is a WOJ behind the theory.

59
DF Reference Collection / Re: [CD spoilers] Cowl = Simon reference thread
« on: December 22, 2012, 07:53:55 PM »
Also, just afterward Fred mentions that Jim said he didn't have a whole lot down on Simon Pietrovich.

I hear that a lot. Could anyone point me to the source and/or give me the exact wording?

60
Quote
First of all, Kudos and applause to Cenphx for starting all this off with such a thought provoking and encompassing thread. 

Seconded.

I've had some time to think about the possibility that Mavra set this all up to rid the world of the Kemmerlerites.  And, it makes quite a bit of sense.  But, first, a little side issue:

None of this works if Murphy stays in town.  Harry would spill it that blackmail is going on, or she would figure it out...or more likely, she would read the lie on Harry's face.  So she has to be out of town.

Either:
1.  Mavra hired Kincaid to get Murphy out of town.
2.  A cutout of Mavra's hired Kincaid to get Murphy out of town.
3  A cutout of Mavra's hired Kincaid to take care of a little business in Hawaii  ( Kaupe the cannibal dog man was out of control) and part of the deal was a suite at the The Ritz-Carlton in Kapalua for two.  Mavra witnessed the little attraction during Blood Rites and hoped he'd take her.  Although, that's leaving too much to chance.

Face it...Kincaid was hired by Mavra to get Murphy out of town so she could have an unobstructed gun (Harry) to point at the Kemmerlerites.  Harry should just change his name to "Tool."  First, Mavra turns him into a loaded gun.  In Changes, Odin turns him into a loaded gun.  Both point him at their respective targets.

Ah. This is the ideal occasion for me to explain one of my pet theories.  :D

I've noticed that in the Dresdenverse, family seems to be very important: Mab and Maeve, Titania and Aurora, Ortega and Bianca, Marva and her "children". When you kill someone's child they get pissed, even immortal gods/badass.

Now, we know that Dracula was a Blampire. His father was Drakul. Dracula was killed.

WAG: Drakul is enraged by the death of his son, and is planning his revenge.

That's why he sent the skinwalker in Turn Coat: Harry protected the White Court in a big way in White Night, so Drakul decided to kill him. Notice that the skinwalker was especially tough on the whites: many killed, Thomas tortured. (Other possibility: the big D sent the skinwalker after the SmF disaster.)

So it's possible that Drakul himself asked Kincaid to help Mavra in Dead Beat.

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