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Messages - Yuillegan

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31
That Nic is referring to TWG in that scene?

FACT.

Here are all the relevant quotes I could find in a quick search, page numbers taken from the Hard back Edition, it starts around chapter 40.

Page 330page 348page 346
I mean, I guess Harry could have read the reference wrong and jumped to a wrong conclusion and Nic just played along with it...

But there is nothing there to suggest he was talking about HHW-Beside over Harry's interpretation of TWG.
That Nic is referring to TWG in that scene?

FACT.
Just to be clear - facts are statements of nigh-indisputable truth. I am not sure that applies here. Mostly people say fact when what they really mean is collective opinion on a topic. Neither I would say apply here, to be honest.

And while I agree it is most likely the White God that Nicodemus is referring to, it isn't fact YET. That would require some exposition like Nicodemus saying to Dresden "The Enemy I fight against is The Almighty himself" or something along those lines, or Jim saying in an interview that the Enemy that Nic was referring to was TWG. But we don't have either of those. We just have speculation - which is deliberate on Jim's part (otherwise he wouldn't have used the label "The Enemy" and just said whoever Nic's great enemy is).

He could mean Lucifer, or an Outsider/Old One, or some other being we don't know of. The point is, the identity of Nic's "Enemy" is up for debate still and will be until we get further evidence.


32
DF Spoilers / Re: Is the "Black Council" just ... Cowl?
« on: April 23, 2023, 10:27:36 PM »
Again, Harry literally suspects that his entire idea of a "Black Council" is wrong and it might all just be Nemesis.

That said, Cowl doesn't seem nemfected. Nemesis infected agents tend to pretend they are themselves and do weird and creepy and insane things in the shadows and only reveal themselves when caught (if they ever do).

Cowl seems to have his own plan.

I would say it's likely a bit of both. The Circle (as the Black Council might call themselves) and Nemesis (and the Outsiders) are quite possibly in league - who is in charge is more interesting to note.

As for Mab and Anduriel etc. not knowing...who says they don't know? They may just choose to keep certain information to themselves. Anduriel likely hides information from Nic after all. Mab is under no obligation to reveal everything she knows to Harry or anyone else. Remember, Vadderung knows at least some of the players. He admits as much during Harry's first meeting with him in Changes.

Beyond that, it isn't like the "Black Council" doesn't have it's own heavy-weight support. It could well be that there are powerful entities hiding much of the activities and identities of the members of the Black Council. And perhaps it's also that they are just very, very clever. Human intelligence often seems to be undervalued by supernatural beings and yet time and time again we see it triumph. Cowl definitely seems to be highly intelligent. I suspect he isn't the only one on the team.

The name of the organization is The Circle.  It is possible that Cowl is the entirety of the leadership of the Circle, but I don't lean in that direction... I did consider it (I think in that other thread) but it doesn't really ring true.
I mean, I agree that it probably is the Circle. But we don't know that as a fact. It's just a possibility. But a highly probable one at that.

I am not so sure they have leaders, myself. But yes, I doubt Cowl is the ultimate leader if they do have one. Their very own "Merlin" if you like. No, I suspect there is something worse in the shadows, as always.


Also, I am not convinced about the idea of cells. I would need to see more evidence of independent cells operating, and perhaps even working concurrently maybe even with competing aims. So far, everything that seems to be linked to the Black Council all seems to be done to further the same aims. Their doesn't seem to be an element of isolation, more a nebulous hand guiding everything along.

Given the way Harry uses a ton of different names for mother winter… and clearly not all of them… I think 7th son and nameless and several other titles would work as names… not as well as a proper name, but I don’t think not having a proper name is that great of an advantage.
You might want to re-read Storm Front. Lots of emphasis on the power of real names over nicknames and monikers. There is also an old WOJ about how if the White Council took on Mab, they would need all their wizards PLUS her True Name (so using Mab wouldn't be enough to actually control her).

That said, it isn't everything or nothing either. Harry bound Ethniu using that name. Is that her True Name? Maybe, but like Vadderung or Odin that name merely represents a facet of the whole being. So I doubt it. But perhaps it's enough when combined with other things (like Arma Christi and Demonreach etc). Maybe it's enough because they choose to bind themselves to a form, and by using a name and diminishing themselves into a single form, they leave themselves vulnerable to being controlled by a moniker. Perhaps that's why Vadderung and Drakul have held multiple identities over the years. Perhaps they see the value in being forgotten every few centuries and not allowing themselves to be at risk of being bound.

33
DF Spoilers / Re: The Archive (Mechanics)
« on: April 23, 2023, 09:59:45 PM »
The Archive has a certain amount of precognitive ability given the amount of knowledge it has access to. I suspect Ivy has long had a plan to have a child and worked out her own highest probable moment of death, and planned to have her child before this.

That said, I suspect should the Archive be killed without an offspring, that's it. I imagine that's a tempting target for the enemies of the Archive.

Which is why the Archive has a bodyguard, and many allies invested in it's protection.

Ivy is a rare case I suspect - she inherited the Archive as a child. Most times the Archive would probably only get passed on to an adult child of the previous vessel of the Archive. Which allows the next one to grow up and have another child, likely before receiving their inheritance. So Ivy is a bit of an unusual (perhaps unique) case. But she will have planned for it. But with who is the question.

I don't think that the bearer dying without an heir would lead to the construct's destruction. If it did, there's no way in hell the Archive would EVER be doing field work like in Death Masks, much less going into actual battle, like in Battle Ground. Though it's entirely possible Ivy already has a daughter or two. While it's uncomfortable to think about, it's entirely possible the Archive would compel its host to have a daughter as soon as biologically possible and safe.
I doubt Ivy has any children yet, given she is hardly out of childhood and as far as we know has no attachments. I don't really see Jim not raising this in the books. It would be logical for there to be a compulsion, but I also suspect there is no need beyond any natural biological compulsion. Free Will and all that.

And I disagree about the Archive doing field work. Ivy certainly didn't have a child during Death Masks (I'd bet anything on that). But Ivy did have Kincaid, and is sort-of a demigod in her own personal power (the warden's files rank her around the same level as the Ladies, and Harry thinks they under rate her by a bit). I think she took a calculated risk in that scenario and wasn't too worried. Remember, Nicodemus had to get help from Lucifer (well, it was apparently more like one of his lieutenants who provided the actual power) for the Signs that helped capture her. It isn't that easy to take out the Archive.

34
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry's Moving Island of Avalon
« on: April 18, 2023, 05:57:21 AM »
Agreed, although it can't be Atlantis given that Maeve says in Cold Days whilst standing on Demonreach that she intends to unleash destruction that hadn't been seen since the Fall of Atlantis...and one would think there would be no Demonreach then, not to mention surely she might recognise where she was standing. Also, pretty sure Atlantis was big enough to hold a massive city. Probably looking at an island the size of Crete or Cyprus.

35
DF Spoilers / Re: Dresden Files animation
« on: April 18, 2023, 05:54:18 AM »
Ah man, as an animation student I would be SO down for an animated Dresden Files. I agree with the studios you listed as well. As long as Netflix (and Fox) doesn't host it, as they have a current trend of cancelling after 1 season for most of their shows. 2D animation has also seen a downward trend lately by being backed up budget-wise. Picking the right service and production team would be careful juggle. Disney obviously has the best budget, but they prefer to aim towards animation for children only. None of their animation is above PG-13, and DF needs to be adult oriented or it'll lose much of its impact.

I can see hour long episodes with 2-3 episodes per book if condensed correctly. I've personally imagined many book scenes can be shown in one minute that takes many pages to describe. I've storyboarded short scenes from the books years ago, though I've lost those scribbles since.
Yeah Netflix would probably cancel any Dresden IP as I doubt it would ever be crazy popular. I suspect Amazon Prime would be the best bet these days.

Yeah, a season does seem far too long per book (and we don't want 25 seasons!). Quality over quantity and all that. Probably the first three books in the first season or something like that. It would take a very clever show runner to work out the natural arcs in the series. In fact, maybe the first five books in the first series. Five books a series gets five seasons - plus the BAT would have to work out at some stage.

Maggie and Mouse as an animation  in true Scooby Doo Style would be better. If Star Wars can do both Live Action and animation so can the Dresden Files.

Besides they can riff on the classic Scooby Do intro with Mouse replacing Scooby, Bob replacing the Flaming Skull and the MunsterMobile standing in for the Mystery Machine, with Toot and Lacuna standing in for Shaggy and Daphne.

You just then need to convince Harry Carpenter to wear an ascot….
Almost think that the Maggie and Mouse series would have to be done as a separate show (and yes, probably aimed for kids).

I would be okay with an Animated series by a studio like one of the two you mentioned (or whoever did Invincible)... the problem is that I don't think Dresden would boil down to episodes very well...  Maybe if each season was a book (multiple seasons in one year would be better than multiple books per season) and each season was made of 4-12 episodes and each episode was 20-90 minutes...

It's nice that Streaming doesn't require every episode fit in either 20 minutes or 45 minutes...

But I think Stranger Things shows that a life action Dresden Files series would be possible.
Wind Sun Sky and Skybound North were the animators. Don't know much of their stuff other than I think Skybound North is part of Skybound Entertainment, which is the showrunner Robert Kirkman's production company. But yes, I think they also would do a fine job.

So I think the opposite. As I said above, a few books a season would be perfect. The first few books are far too small to sustain an entire season. Later on things get harder as the books get bigger.

But I agree that the episodes would probably need to be around an hour at least to do things justice.

There is a live-action series in the works. Jim was involved a bit more than he was with the first live-action one (which some people like, and certainly helped bring people to read the books, but for me was far too different from the books themselves for me to enjoy). One of the main people who used to run this forum (and still runs the website I believe, although she no longer does the content drops) was also quite involved in the new series. However, given the silence about it for the last few years (damn COVID) I would say the show is on indefinite hold. I don't know that for sure but that's often the reality of Hollywood.

36
DF Spoilers / Re: Black Council & BG
« on: April 18, 2023, 05:39:24 AM »
My view is Cowl/Nameless was behind everything, the Fomor were his current cats paw to (1) to destroy Winter and the Accords, (2) set up an war between humanity and the supernatural world.

Thomas and the attack by the Corner Hounds were to destabilise the White Court and the Swartalves and the White Council, both involved Outsiders, and Cowl has established links with them. The coordinated attack on the Gates also falls into this category. The attack on the Carpenters was motivated by Listen who I think has been Cowl’s man inside the Fomor for years who was activated when the Red Court were wiped out as a contingency plan, to undermine Harry.

For all we know the vote against Harry came about due to triggers Peabody left in The Merlin etc which Cowl activated by a trigger word.
Do we think Cowl is the leader of the Black Court? Something tells me even he is just an agent. Perhaps they have no leader. Just a group of like-minded nutjobs and villains. Still not convinced he is Nameless, but I would love to know more about the connections between the two.

Agree about the various cat's paws and attacks. It is interesting that someone knew to attack the Carpenter's house. Speaks to Black Council involvement, particularly given how they like to attack Harry's most precious things (family and friends).

Not so sure about the Merlin being able to be "activated" with a trigger word. The threat of this is discounted rather strongly by Ebenezar in Turn Coat as older wizards can't change who they are as well as younger wizards. It's the smaller, subtler decisions being changed that is scarier. The sub-conscious being altered. Just look at the damage Lasciel did initially to Harry's psyche when her shadow (prior to being Lash) got into Harry's head. She wasn't driving the car. All she had to do was push the right buttons and Harry did all the rest.

37
A more recent WOJ leaves it ambiguous about lower-order angels. Archangels being top-tier are not though - I specifically think this was to in relation to whether Lucifer had been infected by Nemesis, and Jim was shutting that down. It seems the Prince of Darkness is beyond such things, and is evil for his own reasons.

That said, I could understand if regular angels simply thought they were immutable. Same for all immortals.

The point being, Nemesis breaks the rules about immutability because it is so powerful (being a Walker of the Outside - I use that phrasing because Jim does most recently, which suggests being a Walker is more powerful than a normal Outsider). But Archangels seem to be just as powerful so perhaps that's why Nemesis can't infect them.

Ethniu herself might not have been infected by Nemesis (assuming she could) and I doubt she bowed her head to any being in the last few decades or centuries even. That said, Nemesis says the Outsiders "unleashed the primal forces of your Creation against you" - that is for sure Ethniu. Ethniu being an original member of Creation (perhaps even proceeding it, depending on how you look at it).

I'm pretty sure there was a WOJ that, at least, archangels aren't susceptible to Nemesis because their nature is immutable.  Maybe he wasn't speaking to the lower orders of angels on that point because he just wanted to keep readers guessing, but the omission seems striking.

On the other hand, it's not impossible that some of the Fallen - being treacherous by nature - might make a calculated decision to go over to the other side for rewards under the new Outsider order, rather than being compelled by Nemesis.  Or the infection might be of the host rather than the Fallen.

Regarding Namshiel though, I think he's the misdirect, with Tessa and/or Rosanna framing him as the Denarian turncoat.  Marcone isn't an innate talent, or at least he's a very minor one if he has any juice at all - most of what he's doing relies on Namshiel's power. All it would have taken to ensure Nemesis' success in BG would have been for Namshiel to turn off the tap at the crucial moment.  That suggest that while Namshiel is still a dick, he's acting on his own purposes rather than the Outsiders'.

As for Arctis Tor, we don't actually have Mab's reasoning for believing he was the attacker (for that matter, she didn't actively confirm Harry's guess that he was, either, she just stayed silent to it). But I don't think it would be beyond Tessa's abilities to cast a disguise that would pass for Namshiel so long as she didn't get too close to Mab.  Just choose a spiny battle form instead of her usual one - or even cast a high quality illusion of one - fry some foot soldiers from a distance, and boom, you've got a patsy set up even if the attack fails.

Besides, on all the other occasions we've seen Namshiel fight, he seems to have a preference for more esoteric forms of magic over raw fire - I suspect it's an egotistical streak.  I suppose it's possible the attacker really was Namshiel and he was just resorting to crude fire because it's a good counter to lots of Winter troops, but it seems more compelling that someone less talented was posing as Namshiel.
Agree with pretty much all of this.

I am curious how Namshiel allows his hosts to become such powerful sorcerers so quickly. From what I understand, the Fallen can't really given you anything you don't already have. They just show you how to tap into power you already have and nurture it. That said, Jim has been very inconsistent on the Denarians over the series. Certainly early on they seemed to be super-powered terminators. It used to be that it took decades if not centuries to turn a minor talent into a major one (I think that's said in Death Masks). Yet Marcone in a few short years (half a decade or so) is doing more complicated sorcery than Harry. He might not be as strong as Harry, but he seems WAY stronger than he should be. Which makes me wonder if Marcone had untapped talent or if Namshiel is simply understands sorcery so well he can transform any talent into a powerful being very quickly (perhaps even has special gifts in this regard).

I do really quite like the idea of someone setting up Namshiel for Mab to be angry at (along with the other Denarians) and Marcone paying the price, despite neither he nor Namshiel actually being involved. I am not saying it's actually what happened, but it would make for compelling reading.

They are I believe the same thing, the Outsiders split when they disagreed with creation, the Fallen split over the rise of humanity.

In that case the Hosts of the Fallen are already nemfected.
Do you believe Angels, Fallen and Outsiders are actually all the same beings? And you must also then include other primordial spirits that then became known as gods and monsters that existed before Creation began. Interesting idea, thinking of them all as simply different factions. And could well be correct. That said, Outsiders do seem to have a qualitative difference to every other being. But perhaps that just because they live Outside. I mean, you have to be right to some degree. Any being that proceeded the beginning of all Creation (the creation of the multiverse) is sort-of an Outsider, because that seems to be all there was Before Creation. Although it wasn't Outside "back then" it simply was everything that was.

Not sure it's what Jim has written. But I don't mind the idea at all.

I suspect this is the case because I don't think the fallen can be Nemfected directly.

Remember the Winter Lady wasn't infected (the mantle) rather the host was infected. Killing the host removed the Nemfection (or Molly is Nemfected...).
Keep in mind that the Outsiders didn't want Ethniu to win, they wanted her to do damage and distract Harry so he would let one of them into the Well... the plan REQUIRES Harry to ultimately win and when Marcone could have turned traitor to let Ethniu win... the Outsiders wanted Ethniu to lose. So while I agree that Marcone and Namshiel are NOT Nemfected, I don't think this proves anything.
This can't be.  All the outsiders work together (as near as the council can tell) with one will.

If the Outsiders were originally Angels and they split from the white god during creation and then later a second group of Angels split from the white god because he favored humans (with free will) they would be two distinct groups with two distinct goals and thoughts (as indicated by them splitting over different issues and at different times), they could cooperate the same as a host and Denarian can cooperate, but the fallen would not be Outsiders any more than Uriel and his crew are Outsiders... they would be three groups of Angels (Outsiders, Fallen, and Angels).

I agree that it's probably more likely the host is infected rather than the Fallen. But it wasn't so long ago on this very forum (and just about every other Jim Butcher discussion forum) prior to Battle Ground being released that most people firmly believed mortals COULDN'T be infected by Nemesis (despite rather clear evidence to the contrary, and the fact that Lily said revealed it in Cold Days). Only seeing an infected Justine convinced people. That said, there is a WOJ that deliberately is ambiguous when asked whether a Fallen could be infected. I can find it for you if you want.

Not so sure that the Outsiders didn't want Ethniu to win though. Nemesis talks about it being less of a plan than "an act of faith" in empty night. Nemesis seems to be a bit more Joker than Bane. Agents of chaos after all. Because say Ethniu did win, it would have left Demonreach undefended, and the Outsiders could have attacked the island just as they did in Cold Days, and no one would have been there to defend it.

Nothing to say Marcone isn't infected just yet. But not much to say that he is. He still seems to be acting the same way as he always does, which would suggest he isn't infected.

Why couldn't multiple spirit beings infect the same host? Harry has had more than one being in his own head! Unless I misunderstand you. Not saying I agree with CT's theory altogether, although technically all beings from Before Creation are Outsiders of a sort. Just seem to be vastly differing types!

The Outsiders definitely wanted Ethniu to win. She was there to kill Mab who's the leader of the forces guarding the gates.

And you've got it backwards. The Angels were originally Outsiders. The angelic faction is the splinter group that serves their leader, TWG, and helped form Creation.
Forgot that key part, but quite right. Mab being dead would have made for a very weak Winter - hence Mab's request to Harry.

There does seem to be some qualitative difference between those beings that are referred to as Outsiders, and other spirits from before Creation such as angels and gods. They all do seem rather familiar with each other though, certainly no love lost.

38
DF Spoilers / Re: Some personal theories I want to get feedback on.
« on: April 18, 2023, 04:57:39 AM »
So it's actually not Michael, but Father Forthill who reveals this information.

Also, while Anduriel can hear and sometimes see out of any shadow, he can't do this out of every shadow. I highly doubt he can do it on consecrated ground like that of a church, given how hard it is for spiritual entities to even get onto church ground. Talk about a threshold.

Even if he could though, who's to say that isn't divine will? From what I understand of the series - it's all destiny through the privilege of free will. Humans make their choices with the gift of free will and that destiny comes into being. From what we have been told of The White God, I would say that's what he wants. Given that TWG is apparently omniscient and omnipotent, what could possibly happen outside the plan? What event that happens isn't divine will? Given that TWG would have always known everything that ever was and will happen and would have experienced all of time from beginning to end at the moment of Creation? Not only that, but has the power to do anything and change anything? If none of that is true, then that would mean that TWG isn't as all-powerful and all-knowing as is claimed. But that seems unlikely given Uriel's power level. That said, maybe there are very strange limits and loopholes too.

I don't mind the Kim Delaney theory. Definitely has some merit. What's Kim's connection to Cowl though? And why Kim over Harry (the strongest wizard in the city) or Mort or anyone else? What's Kim's connection to the dark side?

I like the numbers theory. The every fifth book is a Denarian theory is quite well known and practically confirmed by Jim. Not sure about the others. I don't remember vampires being a big part of Skin Game. I would also point out that Faeries are nearly in every book, same with Vampires earlier in the series (prior to Changes). And I think a reasonable argument could be made that the Black Council has it's fingerprints in every book in the series.


39
DF Spoilers / Re: Master of the Future? The Fugitive...
« on: April 18, 2023, 04:40:37 AM »
Justin wouldn't wonder why the Wardens were nervious about Harry... he would chock it up to two things:
1: Harry's well above average (for the council) raw power level.
2: Justin faking his own death at the hands of Harry.

Justin above anyone else would 'know' Harry was strong, but not as strong as the Wardens make him out to be.  The comment wouldn't even occur to Justin as cover.

I will eat my hat if Cowl IS Justin... no scratch that, I will go buy a hat and then eat it...

Justin is almost as bad a candidate for Cowl as Nameless is.
But Harry's raw power when Justin last fought him would have been a lot weaker. Not to mention his skill level would have been a lot worse. Harry finished his education with Ebenezar and then had over a decade of honing his skills and growing in strength until he would meet Justin again (assuming Cowl is Justin). So, not unreasonable then for Justin to wonder about Harry's power level. He would have heard Harry was strong, and he would have known his potential, but he wouldn't have yet seen it in action. Like a college scout seeing a pro footballer in high school. You can see what they might be, but you still want to see the finished product otherwise it's just unrealised potential.

Not sure about your point number two. Are you agreeing that Justin isn't dead?

Why else is Justin such a bad candidate? He was considered a powerful warden, we know he experimented with dark magic, he was at Kemmler's final fight (which leads to all sorts of questions if he is Cowl), he is a capable swordsman (being a warden) and Cowl speaks of his skill at swordplay, Justin picked up Bob (a demon that served arguably the greatest and most feared dark wizard in history) from the ruins of Kemmler's last stand (and how did he even know of Bob, and why didn't he just destroy it, and considering how strong Evil Bob is how did he even control it? And how did Cowl know Harry had Bob...Justin would know this of course but who else could know?) - there are so many reasons why Justin makes a good candidate. And those are just in-universe ones. From a writing perspective it's actually a classic literary trope to have the old mentor as the villain. Consider how much more impactful Cowl's identity reveal will be on Harry if Cowl was revealed as Justin. It would anger and scare Harry, it would tear him up emotionally that his surrogate father-teacher is still alive but not only alive but actually one of his biggest enemies. Not to mention Cowl clearly is working towards some skewed version of a Greater Good. He is insane but not like Corpsetaker or Grevane. He wants to improve the world (apparently through stopping death for some reason). And Justin might just have a very good reason for stopping death. We also know Justin was involved with Harry's mother, Arianna and Paolo Ortega, Lord Raith etc. We know they had some scheme around the Stars and Stones...just like Cowl. Also, consider that Simon was killed in his fortress. The White Council suspected Harry of supplying the Red Court with the necessary information to get past the wards...because he was Justin's student, and Justin was once Simon's student. Justin was only ruled out because of his apparent death. Yet we know Cowl and the Red Court worked together, and we know Harry didn't give out the information. So unless Simon is Cowl, or some other student of Simon was involved (the least likely story-wise), Justin makes for a good candidate. Cowl hides his face because he doesn't wish to give out any information. Justin is supposedly dead, so fairly good reason to cover his face. Cowl wants to bring down the White Council for having too many restrictions, Justin also felt that the Council has too many restrictions (as he learned from his master too).

Kumori as Elaine also works very well, given Kumori is both powerful (like Elaine), friendly with Harry (even though she shouldn't really be), quite likely was involved in Aurora's corruption (which Elaine was in a prime position to do), Kumori picked up Harry's force rings (which Harry remarks almost no-one picks up, but Elaine would given she studied under the same master and would know Harry's style and training), and Kumori is tall enough to hold a knife to Harry's throat (which is tricky for most women given Harry's height, but Elaine is at least six foot), and if Elaine is Kumori she is far more likely to work for Justin (as Cowl) than some other Cowl (because what link would Elaine have to some other Cowl?) Kumori as Elaine is still the most popular theory, and for good reason. It's the most likely. Also adds to Harry's betrayal and isolation.

If not Justin, who do you believe it is? Who is so familiar with Harry who is a powerful and well-trained (White Council level) wizard, who also might have experience with necromancy, who hits hard (perhaps harder) than a Senior Council wizard?

I honestly had never considered Nameless. I am hoping CT will explain his idea further. It's intriguing, even if I can't yet see it myself. One of the main reasons I don't think it works is that Nameless is closer to being a demigod and but Cowl's magic feels human (even if it's incredibly strong).

It’s likely Justin was working for Cowl, we know Nameless worked with Kemmler, he went to winter but couldn’t take Bob with him without incurring Mab’s wrath, so he handed him off to Justin. Justin may have only joined the Wardens in the first place as Nameless inside man.
When did Nameless work for Kemmler? Also, assuming your theory is correct, why would Nameless use a dark wizard and later hexenwolves as bait to flush out the information that Harry has Bob? And why would that reveal Bob is in Harry's possession?

Justin got Bob from Kemmler's effects after the White Council dealt with him. If Nameless had ever possessed him, he'd have told Harry in The Law.
Agreed.

40
DF Spoilers / Dresden Files animation
« on: April 16, 2023, 01:00:26 AM »
I've said it before, but thought I would bring it up again, a Dresden Files animated series would be great.

I know there is a live-action tv show in the works (although I think it might be in developmental hell currently). But an animated series can show more destruction, do crazier visual things, and doesn't have to worry about cast members aging too much. Really helps with the immortal and semi-immortal beings etc.

I also see it as a great way to re-launch interest in the series which could help the tv show etc.

I am thinking the two main studios I would want to see work on it are Powerhouse Studios (did Blood of Zeus in combination with two korean studios, and did the Castlevania tv series - both are on Netflix - also the opening title for Avatar: the Last Airbender), and Titmouse, Inc. (did the Legend of Vox Machina series).

Just google the artwork style and/or look at some scenes on youtube if you don't want to watch the full series.

Would you guys be interested in watching an animated series of the Dresden Files?

41
DF Spoilers / Re: Master of the Future? The Fugitive...
« on: April 15, 2023, 02:05:22 AM »
If Cowl isn't Justin Dumorne I will eat my hat.

He doesn't say Dresden, or the Wizard, he calls him Hary. Says he is a pain in his ass. It's familiar, and frustrated. If he were Simon, would he talk like that?

Also, the idea that Cowl has a bolt hole outside of Chicago further lends weight to it. One of Harry's worst enemies, right around the corner. Why would Cowl have that if he were Simon really? He would have places in Russia etc to go to. But Justin has links to Chicago. It's part of the reason Harry is there, I am sure of it. It's certainly where they spent their time together.

My Shadow also has a name - Ash. That's very cool to know.

Best short story he has written yet I think.

And while Master of the Future may hint at time travel, I rather think it has more to do with the Stars and Stones - which Justin had been preparing for long before he met Harry (it's why he chose Harry and Elaine).

If anyone says Justin is dead to me as a reason Cowl isn't Justin...I will eat a shoe. Do better. IF Jim has lied to us (which he does constantly) then Justin isn't dead, and makes him a prime candidate. Even Morgan suspected Justin might not be dead. In-universe hint! Not to mention, Cowl is a necromancer. Justin stole Bob, before he was Bob, a Necromancer's demon. Why? To learn necromancy (among other things). And we have seen Capiocorpus return from the dead, and Cowl too, which they learned from Kemmler (who did it several times over!)

So it seems highly possible Justin either came back from the dead and gave himself a new identity or faked his death with some sort of double...just as Alt-Harry will do in Mirror Mirror.

Harry is one of if not the strongest wizards of his generation, Justin was aware of that, I don't see Justin making that comment even if he was alive.
Why not? He totally would want to see how Dresden would have improved. And he wasn't trying to reveal his identity. Not to mention, he had sparred with Dresden in the past (both in practice and one "duel"). I think he was curious to see if Dresden had got any better since, and was mostly disappointed.

42
DF Spoilers / Re: Black Council & BG
« on: April 15, 2023, 01:22:40 AM »
It's all a Nemesis plot.

One of the main points of PT/BG was the desire by Nemesis to hasten the Apocalypse. Go back and reread the conversation between Harry and Justine. It explains Thomas's attack on Etri and how the whole Ethniu/Formor attack on Chicago was a diversion for another attack on Demonreach. Basically, Nemesis monologues to Harry that it has been behind almost everything he's encountered and that it is the overarching villain of the piece.

Yes, there are individuals such as Cowl, Nic and Drakul running about. But almost all the other foes that Dresden has faced have been pieces in the game Nemesis is playing against the protectors of reality in this universe and even they are not entirely clear of his influence.
^^This.

It's been pretty thoroughly explained that Nemesis (and/or the Outsiders) have been involved with every major foe (and even some minor ones) in the series. They either have had a direct or indirect influence in every book, often via the so-called Black Council.

The Outsiders abhor creation and especially humans, they desire complete destruction. Everyone else wants a new creation along their own lines, but they are all quite happy to see the end of humanity.

Cowl quite clearly has the ear of the Outsiders (or some other equivalent sensory appendage, I hope, rather than some other sort of appendage), and as such is their man in creation, but he is likely playing his own game,  Nick is Lucifers guy, Drakul’s his own guy, Harry is Uriel’s guy.
You know, I think this is basically what the Stars and Stones is about. Whoever gets it right decides what their universe looks like (or even if there is one), although should they not elect to end everything then it's a waiting game until the next cycle. It may or may not effect things at the multiverse level (although I am sure it does to some degree).

I laughed, but hoo boy that is a minefield. All appendages are sensory though, unless you have lost the sense of touch.

Also, I highly doubt Cowl is their only man in Harry's universe, let alone all Creation. Hence the Black Council etc.

Not sure about Nick being Lucifer's guy. I kinda think he has his own plan. Just a very angry, dangerous man with the knowledge and ability to tip the scales of destiny. I always think of that very obscure WOJ about Nick being more dangerous to Creation than Lucifer, in some ways. Primarily because (and this is the salient point) Lucifer is in an argument with god, and therefore needs a Creation to argue about. He implies Nicodemus doesn't care so much about that.

I can't make my mind up on Drakul. He could be an evil Dragon, he could be an Outsider, he could be Lucifer depowered significantly, or simply a Demon Lord of some sort. His true identity is the key to knowing his motives. But I do agree that he largely seems to be his own man.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

The BC, and I include Nemesis in that, wants dissension,  I agree, but the Accorded Nations are tighter together after fighting together,  that would have happened whether they won the battle or lost it.  Drakul, I don't see him working for anyone, he was just on a recruiting trip.

For now, I'll stand on my belief that Etri's attempted assassination and Ethniu's attack were separate plots by separate groups.   But others used it to pursue their own goals.

Unless or until we get additional evidence one way or the other.
The problem with this is that I doubt Nemesis predicted that it's assault would bind those allies tighter together. I think it assumed that regardless of the outcome of the Battle, more chaos would be in the world and therefore a more fractured Accords. And yet, x does not equal y (if you like). It's assumed premise lead to an illogical conclusion, because Nemesis is an Outsider. It has trouble working out humans, and that x factor confuses it's calculations.

And as Vincentric points out, it's actually stated the attacks are linked.

Quote
Thomas, struggling to speak.
 I thought of my brother’s face, crushed and swollen out of shape.
 Junghg. S’Jnngh.
 He hadn’t been able to say, “Justine.”
 Or maybe he hadn’t been trying to say it.
 I thought of the island, disturbed at the great powers expended that night.
 The last thing I needed was something slipping out of the prison during all the hubbub.
 S’Jnngh, he’d told me.
 Why had my brother gone after Etri?
 S’Justine, he’d told me.
 It’s Justine.
 Hell’s bells.
 It was Justine.

Quote
“See, there were just too many threads being pulled,” I said. “The attack on the Outer Gates especially. And the Titan herself . . . God, what a blunt instrument. What a big, loud distraction. So that you could get inside.”
 Justine’s head turned to face me. The lightening sky was behind her. There was nothing to be seen of her expression but blackness.
 I limped forward a couple of paces. Nothing specific was any worse than it had been an hour ago, but even the immunity of the Winter mantle had its limits. My joints felt like they’d been dipped in plaster and were slowly drying stiff.
 “And every single living family member of mine, personally, was placed in danger. All of them. To make sure I had the maximum amount of personal worry to distract me.”
 Justine has incredible cheekbones. They shifted, slightly altering her shadowy profile as she smiled.
 “Something about Justine wasn’t . . . quite right, earlier, in the apartment,” I said. And I let my voice harden. “How long ago did you possess the girl?”
 Justine was silent for a moment. Then she shook her head and said, “I think the problem is, you just don’t sound all that bright, wizard. Perhaps it’s skewing my expectations.”
 She turned toward me, slim and graceful, steady on the deck.
 I faced her and tried not to pitch over the rail as the Water Beetle bumped along the waves. It had been a long night. And I didn’t have much left, physically or otherwise.
 “Tell me your name,” I said, and slid some of my will into my voice.
 “You know who I am,” Justine purred in answer.
 Then she reached out with one hand and ripped a four-foot section of the ship’s steel handrail off its metal struts.
 I blinked wearily and fancied I could hear grains of sand pattering to the deck from my eyes. Now I knew what Ethniu had felt like at the end. “Humor me,” I said, with more of my will. “Tell me your name.”
 Justine, or whatever being was driving Justine’s body around, turned toward me and began slow, stalking paces forward. It made some abortive, choking noises in its throat, and then said, the words drawn from it reluctantly, “It will do you no good once I’ve caved in your skull. Nemesis am I called.”
 There. Bingo.
 For years, shadowy forces had been driving events in Chicago and in the wider world. For years, I’d been picking up threads and finding them connected to others. For years, I’d been flailing around trying to get an idea of the forces that had been arrayed against me.
 And tonight, one of the players was in the open.
 Right there. Behind Justine’s eyes.
 And I was going to get answers.
 I didn’t have much left in me but pure, stiff-necked, muleheaded contrariness.
 But even after the night I’d had, I still had plenty of it.
 “I don’t care what they call you,” I spat. The effort of maintaining my will made it impossible to move my feet as the slender girl stalked forward with her steel bar. “Thrice I say and done. Tell me your name.”
 The slender figure froze in front of me, shuddering.
 Then she exhaled in a slow, utterly sensual voice, “I am the doubt that wards away sleep. I am the flaw that corrupts, the infected wound, the false fork in the trail. I am the gnawer, the worm in the book, the maggot that burrows in the mind’s eye.”
 She shuddered in bizarre ecstasy and panted, in a frantic whisper, “I am He Who Walks Beside.”
 Hell’s bells.
 A Walker.
 And if I hadn’t twigged to its presence, I would have set it loose on Demonreach— the prison for the great nightmares of the world. Ethniu wasn’t the biggest thing in it—not by a long shot. And an Outsider with the power of a Walker, turned loose inside the island’s defenses, might well be able to destroy them and set loose every horror inside.
 Hell. There’d have been an Ethniu for every city, if the place got emptied out.
 The weight of my will, once finished forcing the information from the possessing being, flooded out of me and left me barely able to stand. I staggered back, away from the slender figure in front of me.
 Justine, calmly, pursued.
 “I hope it felt good to scratch that itch,” she purred. “This is the end of your story, starborn.”
 “How long?” I asked. “How long have you been in Justine?”
 Justine waved the steel bar in a vague gesture. “Mortal time is such a limited concept. A few years. Ever since she became close to Lara.”
 I glowered at her. “You conceived my brother’s child intentionally.”
 “Obviously,” Justine purred. “That ridiculous instinct, honestly. It is your kind’s greatest weakness. Once he understood that his mate and his offspring would die if he did not follow my instructions, well . . .” She shrugged.
 “So you sent him at Etri. At the svartalves, someone almost everyone respects. Why? To shatter the Accords?”
 “Apocalypse isn’t an event,” Nemesis murmured. “It is a frame of mind.”
 I probably would have staggered anyway, but the phrase hit hard.
 “This was less a plan than . . . an act of faith, I suppose you would say,” the Outsider continued through Justine’s lips.
 “Faith?” I asked.
 “In what is coming,” the Walker said. “The unraveling of all things into darkness and silence.”
 “Empty Night,” I breathed.
“Empty Night,” the creature echoed, in the hushed tone of a holy phrase. “So we pressed the attacks at the Outer Gates. While I sowed havoc within the walls of reality. We loosed some of the primal forces of your own precious Creation against you. Undermined Mab, her people, the Accords, the delusion of order you force upon the universe with your useless presence.” She smiled, dropping lower, the motion feline, sensual, hypnotic. “You may have survived the day. But the deed is done. We are the tide. Infinite. Unrelenting. And one day, starborn, make no mistake, we will wipe away all that you know. All we need is a single opening.”

43
DF Spoilers / Re: Black Council & BG
« on: April 13, 2023, 09:55:08 AM »
Oh I don't know about that, the entire battle has their fingerprints all over it. I doubt many, if any, participated in the actual fighting.

But stirring up factions that haven't been at war in thousands of years, beings acting outside their normal behaviours and ignoring protocols and treaties...it's classic Black Council. Not to mention, Ethniu got Balor's eye somehow. She was locked in a tower by her father when he lost the Eye to her son. Now it's possible Lugh (her son) returned it to her, but then who ripped out her eye for her to place Balor's Eye in? My guess is a Walker of the Outside. Who else could damage her so? Also, how did she get Titanic Bronze? Only the Hekatonheires (Hundred-Handed Ones) knew it's secrets, even the Svartalves were not sure of it. Lots of questions and no answers.

An angry being like her was strong enough, but someone (or a group of someones) armed and armoured her and pointed her at her ancient foes. And why? To weaken their defence of the Outer Gates.

Also, consider that the Black Council (or rather, Nemesis) was behind the assassination attempt of Etri. This was done to destabilise the already fragile relations between the Accords members (this is said in Battle Ground). It's quite clear that after the Red Court failed to destroy the White Council, the Black Council unleased another force against them. I am sure there is more.

Further, the presence of Drakul would also hint at Black Council involvement. Whether he is aligned with them or not, I suspect he is connected to them, either as possible occasional allies or competition.

The Whamps and Svartalves working together was about pure survival. Had they refused, Mab (not to mention the other Accord members) might have made them pay later. More importantly though, failure to stop Ethniu would have likely meant their destruction (at least locally, and probably totally in the mid to long term).

The Battle wasn't merely to tire out Harry. That merely was one of Nemesis' many options. As Nemesis itself says, it's not so much a plan as an act of faith. I see Nemesis as more like the Joker than Bane, if that makes sense. An agent of chaos. Everything it does it merely to create more chaos, conditions that suit it and the Outsiders, that ultimately weaken the barriers that keep them out. It's all about the Outer Gates, and to a lesser (but still important degree), the prison at Demonreach. Remember, the Outer Gates came under major assault JUST as Ethniu announced her impending assault on Chicago.

To the Outsiders, what is a small dust-up like the Battle of Chicago but a bit of distraction to the forces allied against them? The Outsiders are fighting a multi-verse scale war, even one universe is ultimately a very, very tiny part of it all. Even if Harry's universe is very important, perhaps more important to the greater battle than most universes. The Outsiders might number in the trillions, likely very nearly infinite.

44
DF Spoilers / Re: Black Council & BG
« on: April 12, 2023, 11:48:42 AM »
No, depending on what you define as the Black Council.

Harry has suggested the possibility that all those Nemesis infects is what is thought of as Black Council. However, I think this isn't the case.

What seems to be more likely is that the Black Council either works for or uses/aids Nemesis. Given that the whole Ethniu assault was simply Nemesis (and the Outsiders) just causing a bit of chaos in order to distract everyone, I'd say that the Black Council was highly aware of the Fomor's impending assault.

Jim has said they were "very busy not getting stomped on" by Ethniu. They more seem like behind the scenes players than anything else.

Perhaps Cristos was simply maintaining his cover. More likely, I think he isn't Black Council and merely just a puppet they influence. Perhaps Nemesis infected but more likely just vain and greedy and working for them to improve his station. Stupid, arrogant, naive perhaps - but not necessarily outright evil.

Listen does seem like a good candidate for Black Council membership. Listen is very capable, sure. But he was up against a literal fairy queen (Molly). Is it so hard to believe she could fool him? Listen didn't betray Ethniu - even if by her standards she felt he did. It isn't a betrayal to be wrong. As Harry implies, she just doesn't get she couldn't have known everything. That even a being who thinks she is so powerful has blindspots.

That said, it could also be the case that she realised Listen had betrayed her outright and Harry hadn't realised and assumed something else. But I think it more likely that Listen failing to achieve his task was considered a betrayal by Ethniu.

45
DF Spoilers / Re: The Darkhallow
« on: April 07, 2023, 03:53:35 AM »
Again, the Darkhallow summons ghosts and that's what the user consumes. The Sleepers die in the aftermath where they are sucked into the vacuum caused by it.

You know, I am not so sure that's the case. If you read what the Darkhallow actually does back in Dead Beat, it's a spell that consumes spirits. I am not sure it distinguishes the spirits between those that are shades of the mortal departed or anything else. Bob was potentially going to be consumed if Cowl had succeeded, Dresden notes. Bob is no ghost or spectre, he is an air-spirit, a demon by certain definitions.

That said, I suspect it is impossible to consume an immortal without them first being made mortal. Which is why the Stone Table exists, and why Halloween is so important even to immortals - it allows them to gain power when they otherwise cannot. It allows change. Yes, it can also result in their deaths or the deaths of their enemies, but I suspect it's far more important to try and steal power and add it to one's own. That's far safer, but also longer term thinking than a slugfest or assassination (both of which are more likely to fail and may even result in death to the attacker).

Hence, if one did attempt a Darkhallow on Demonreach (remembering the only time it can be attempted IS on Halloween given that a mortal cannot become immortal except during that type of convergence - which doesn't mean there are not other places e.g. specific locations in the Nevernever that one could do a Darkhallow), one might be able to consume the immortal beings if released.

BUT - the variables are too high I think to be feasible. You have to kill each immortal, as I can't imagine they would go willingly, and they would each put up a fight. They are likely well rested and angry. Imagine trying to face down 100 Ethniu-level threats. And Demonreach contains thousands of monsters, maybe more. While not all would be immortal necessarily (although likely most are, given that the Naagloshii are the least powerful threats and they are immortal), you still have a lot of really big threats to contend with.

Then there is the issue of what happens if you did somehow manage to weaken enough of them to consume them in the vortex. I doubt there would be anything left of the performer of the Darkhallow. Given Dresden is probably the only being who could both release the prisoners and perform the Darkhallow given his knowledge and position as Warden, I doubt there would be a Dresden at the end. As CT says, you are what you eat. Jim has spoken a bit about this before. In consuming so many powerful identities (let alone dark, insane monsters), it wouldn't leave much left of the original being that ate them. The act of consuming them is an act of change, and the only thing that can change is the performer of the Darkhallow. Sadly, what would be left is a truly insane, incredibly powerful monster. But I doubt it would ever get to that stage.

I don't think most of them would be subject to "psychic vacuum" of the ghosts being eaten.
Mortals are relatively-weak, with little in the way of defenses; not so the entities in the Well.
This is right, I think. In their containment crystals, I think they would be protected against most things. Not to mention most if not all of the beings in the well are immortals and so basically impossible to kill. Beyond that, the magic of the Darkhallow consumes all the magic in the area (I suspect because the Darkhallow uses necromancy, which uses the power of death rather than life). This consuming of magic (i.e. life energy) is what creates a vacuum, and reality balances that by ripping all the life out in the local area to bring local reality back into equilibrium. This energy doesn't go to the Darkhallow performer, as they already have consumed the areas magic, it's life energy. The vacuum is an after-effect, a very dangerous and scary one. But not evil in and of itself, no more than a hurricane is evil. Just nature balancing itself out. I also don't think spirits (including immortals here) are the right sort of energy, given that strictly speaking, they aren't exactly alive. They are energy beings, sure. But mortal life energy has repeatedly shown to have a qualitative difference to it. I don't think the energy of the immortals would balance things out even if it could be ripped from them, which it can't anyway.

That may be debatable - whose magic?  Beyond human magic, apparently beyond even Ethnieu - but maybe a Mother could crack it, and I assume Uriel could. Kinda like bulletproof vests - depends on the bullet. That darkhallow is big power.
I don't think it was beyond Ethniu. She didn't know of it's significance. If she had, she might not have attacked so close to Chicago. Remember, He Who Walks Before was potentially able to crack it given enough time. Not to mention, it's not merely a matter of metaphysical/magical might. Mortal power is enough, given that Before was using mortals in it's rituals, and Ethniu had plenty of mortal servants too.

A being of the Mothers' level (including Uriel) could do it, but I doubt any would. Not to mention, even if they have the horsepower necessary, none of those beings seem to be able to influence events on the mortal plane except to the tiniest degree (although Lucifer seems to be able to get around this a bit more than the rest).

Anything powerful enough to destroy Demonreach would destroy the Earth as well.
Depends on your definition of destroy. If the Well's failsafe is activated it destroys most of North America. Such an event would be worse than any meteor to ever hit the planet (including the potential one theorized to have ended the Dinosaurs). Such an event would physically change Earth's climate to likely a completely inhospitable degree (given it would likely cover the planet in a dirt cloud that might not disperse for years). This assumes that the Banefire isn't so hot that it ignites the atmosphere, burning it away completely and leaving the Earth completely unprotected to the hostile nature of space. That would result in half the planet instantly burning and the other half freezing (depending on whether the light of the Sun was touching it), and this would be after the initial global firestorm. Now maybe if you were in a bunker deep enough you might survive all that, assuming you had your own oxygen supply etc. But not for long. The oceans would be evaporated, the entire surface made inimical to life. No air, water, safe and arable land, no food. Depending on the power of the Banefire's explosion, it might cause tectonic disturbances. Which means any bunker that wasn't immediately blown away, might still eventually become totally compromised due to the shifting continents.

That's a destroyed Earth by most definitions. And sure, there are lesser scenarios that only result in the USA getting firestormed on the surface. But that likely would still cause a massive geopolitical change, probably result in some very destructive wars, and probably still some negative climate effects on a global level etc. And this assumes no other supernatural involvement. Plenty of monsters might come out at this point to exploit the situation.

But if you mean a full-on Death Star-like planet-fully-destroyed-and-turned-to-rubble moment (overkill by most definitions), I think that's redundant.

Besides, why destroy Demonreach? Just as easy to leave it there and keep away any competition. Not to mention, simply cracking it open would be enough to end the world (in some cases even for just one of those beings getting out) let alone all of them. As I said earlier, cracking it open isn't simply a matter of brute strength. Skill, knowledge, will and tools are just as capable (perhaps more so in some cases). It might be easier and have a higher chance of success to simpy use leverage. Even the Outsiders didn't just use brute strength, and they have potentially an unlimited amount (by some definitions). They used a variety of approaches.

 

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