I do quite like the theory, although I think it's unlikely.

The main problem is that I don't see how Nemesis could do such things as possession (which is a fairly powerful thing) and grant free will to immortals (or at least a version of it) from inside the Island, given how many layers of defences are between what would be the "core" Nemesis and it's puppets. It has to get through the crystal coffin, and then whatever wards are on the hallway, through that super-max magical door that leads to the corridors of prisoners, up and through the earth and wards of the Tower, and past Alfred this whole time and any other defences of the Island, plus the water of Lake Michigan...

It just seems implausible.

Unless...Nemesis had off-shoots. Little avatars or clones, which might explain why it can only possess a limited number of people.


More likely though, I think Nemesis wants to release all the other horrible monsters (which likely includes some nasty Outsiders) that reside in Demonreach, given that would kick off the End of the World for humanity. That's goal enough, in my opinion.

I am not sure I see that Nemesis hates Harry more than the others, or more than most other people hate him except that Harry is a starborn and seems to be constantly ruining Nemesis' various plans (confirmed by the Gatekeeper in Cold Days).

I agree with the premise, and yet also disagreee.

G33k raises a few good points - namely that the White Council is simply a product of it's time. They aren't all that adaptable. They do have huge resources, but they also are heavily hamstrung by their own internal political problems. They only appear on the outside to work together; internally I would say it's far less organised. Think the UN, but at a smaller scale (the whole White Council is barely a few thousand wizards, given that their wardens only numbered about 200 in Dead Beat).

I agree that Jim probably would find it hard to emulate an Illuminati-esque organisation given his presumed lack of exposure to one. I also agree that the rich and powerful tend to have armies of servants to support them. I suspect the really powerful wizards probably do have large networks of allies and servants - we just haven't seen that much of this yet. But each of the Senior Council has shown glimpses into their networks. The Merlin, of course, has an entire organisation under him to direct. But the Gatekeeper has shown his relationships with the Faeries, Listens-to-Wind has shown his relationships to the Forest People as well as other local magical groups, Martha Liberty has connections amongst the Loa, La Fortier had deep relationships with a lot of European and other factions (which Cristos has taken over), Simon had relationships with the vampires it seems (as well as other European connections), and of course Ebenezar has been shown with the most connections (Vadderung, the Grey Council, Kenku, etc). Part of what makes the senior wizards so strong is their allies and political strength, on top of their magical might and skills. Jim has also said they each have their own demesnes to retreat to...which gets interesting.

We just haven't seen everyone put their cards on the table, as it's a Harry-centric story. Remember, the White Council had many allies to support it during it's war with the vampires. And when it came time to finish them off, there is a decent theory that Harry's involvement with destroying the Red Court and ending the war was somewhat planned (potentially that Harry acting unbeknownst to himself as a sort-of black ops agent). When the temperature ramps up I wouldn't be surprised to see people start to put their cards on the table.

I also believe that the White Council is very strict about allowing outsiders in - as G33k points out it is a security issue as much as anything. But they also seem to big on the idea of not involving vanilla mortals in their affairs. So the hiring of clued-in mortals seems a bit tricky.

I suspect the reason they have survived so long is partially to do with the appearance of power. They have overcome much in their history, which gives the predators pause. And Ebenezar has hinted that the White Council has nearly been wiped out several times over. So yes, they probably have more than a few supernatural benefactors invested in their survival. There is a reasonable theory that Vadderung (among others) caused the creation of the White Council - which makes sense given that he personally trained the original Merlin. So he and those like him would be invested in it's survival. I would be willing to bet he puts out a lot of unseen fires. Let alone beings like Uriel.

Not to mention, at the end of the day it's a group of several thousand of the strongest mortal magic users on the planet (with the exception of certain dark wizards and so on). That power combined, that knowledge combined, makes them a match for many groups. Yes, they are still minnows. They are nowhere near the top of the food chain. But they can probably hurt just about any being, and that alone is scary. Mortal magic after all has special and unique properties that the other supernatural beings don't have. And the White Council is probably the largest well of mortal magic on the planet.

I think the White Council's greatest threat ultimately is itself - and that is certain to be its downfall. Nothing lasts forever and the White Council is assuredly at the end of its time.

Sorry, only just read Snark Knight who sums it up more succinctly and clearly than myself. Agreed.

That Nic is referring to TWG in that scene?

FACT.

Here are all the relevant quotes I could find in a quick search, page numbers taken from the Hard back Edition, it starts around chapter 40.

Page 330page 348page 346
I mean, I guess Harry could have read the reference wrong and jumped to a wrong conclusion and Nic just played along with it...

But there is nothing there to suggest he was talking about HHW-Beside over Harry's interpretation of TWG.

That Nic is referring to TWG in that scene?

FACT.

Just to be clear - facts are statements of nigh-indisputable truth. I am not sure that applies here. Mostly people say fact when what they really mean is collective opinion on a topic. Neither I would say apply here, to be honest.

And while I agree it is most likely the White God that Nicodemus is referring to, it isn't fact YET. That would require some exposition like Nicodemus saying to Dresden "The Enemy I fight against is The Almighty himself" or something along those lines, or Jim saying in an interview that the Enemy that Nic was referring to was TWG. But we don't have either of those. We just have speculation - which is deliberate on Jim's part (otherwise he wouldn't have used the label "The Enemy" and just said whoever Nic's great enemy is).

He could mean Lucifer, or an Outsider/Old One, or some other being we don't know of. The point is, the identity of Nic's "Enemy" is up for debate still and will be until we get further evidence.

The Archive has a certain amount of precognitive ability given the amount of knowledge it has access to. I suspect Ivy has long had a plan to have a child and worked out her own highest probable moment of death, and planned to have her child before this.

That said, I suspect should the Archive be killed without an offspring, that's it. I imagine that's a tempting target for the enemies of the Archive.

Which is why the Archive has a bodyguard, and many allies invested in it's protection.

Ivy is a rare case I suspect - she inherited the Archive as a child. Most times the Archive would probably only get passed on to an adult child of the previous vessel of the Archive. Which allows the next one to grow up and have another child, likely before receiving their inheritance. So Ivy is a bit of an unusual (perhaps unique) case. But she will have planned for it. But with who is the question.

I don't think that the bearer dying without an heir would lead to the construct's destruction. If it did, there's no way in hell the Archive would EVER be doing field work like in Death Masks, much less going into actual battle, like in Battle Ground. Though it's entirely possible Ivy already has a daughter or two. While it's uncomfortable to think about, it's entirely possible the Archive would compel its host to have a daughter as soon as biologically possible and safe.

I doubt Ivy has any children yet, given she is hardly out of childhood and as far as we know has no attachments. I don't really see Jim not raising this in the books. It would be logical for there to be a compulsion, but I also suspect there is no need beyond any natural biological compulsion. Free Will and all that.

And I disagree about the Archive doing field work. Ivy certainly didn't have a child during Death Masks (I'd bet anything on that). But Ivy did have Kincaid, and is sort-of a demigod in her own personal power (the warden's files rank her around the same level as the Ladies, and Harry thinks they under rate her by a bit). I think she took a calculated risk in that scenario and wasn't too worried. Remember, Nicodemus had to get help from Lucifer (well, it was apparently more like one of his lieutenants who provided the actual power) for the Signs that helped capture her. It isn't that easy to take out the Archive.

Ah man, as an animation student I would be SO down for an animated Dresden Files. I agree with the studios you listed as well. As long as Netflix (and Fox) doesn't host it, as they have a current trend of cancelling after 1 season for most of their shows. 2D animation has also seen a downward trend lately by being backed up budget-wise. Picking the right service and production team would be careful juggle. Disney obviously has the best budget, but they prefer to aim towards animation for children only. None of their animation is above PG-13, and DF needs to be adult oriented or it'll lose much of its impact.

I can see hour long episodes with 2-3 episodes per book if condensed correctly. I've personally imagined many book scenes can be shown in one minute that takes many pages to describe. I've storyboarded short scenes from the books years ago, though I've lost those scribbles since.

Yeah Netflix would probably cancel any Dresden IP as I doubt it would ever be crazy popular. I suspect Amazon Prime would be the best bet these days.

Yeah, a season does seem far too long per book (and we don't want 25 seasons!). Quality over quantity and all that. Probably the first three books in the first season or something like that. It would take a very clever show runner to work out the natural arcs in the series. In fact, maybe the first five books in the first series. Five books a series gets five seasons - plus the BAT would have to work out at some stage.

Maggie and Mouse as an animation  in true Scooby Doo Style would be better. If Star Wars can do both Live Action and animation so can the Dresden Files.

Besides they can riff on the classic Scooby Do intro with Mouse replacing Scooby, Bob replacing the Flaming Skull and the MunsterMobile standing in for the Mystery Machine, with Toot and Lacuna standing in for Shaggy and Daphne.

You just then need to convince Harry Carpenter to wear an ascot….

Almost think that the Maggie and Mouse series would have to be done as a separate show (and yes, probably aimed for kids).

I would be okay with an Animated series by a studio like one of the two you mentioned (or whoever did Invincible)... the problem is that I don't think Dresden would boil down to episodes very well...  Maybe if each season was a book (multiple seasons in one year would be better than multiple books per season) and each season was made of 4-12 episodes and each episode was 20-90 minutes...

It's nice that Streaming doesn't require every episode fit in either 20 minutes or 45 minutes...

But I think Stranger Things shows that a life action Dresden Files series would be possible.

Wind Sun Sky and Skybound North were the animators. Don't know much of their stuff other than I think Skybound North is part of Skybound Entertainment, which is the showrunner Robert Kirkman's production company. But yes, I think they also would do a fine job.

So I think the opposite. As I said above, a few books a season would be perfect. The first few books are far too small to sustain an entire season. Later on things get harder as the books get bigger.

But I agree that the episodes would probably need to be around an hour at least to do things justice.

There is a live-action series in the works. Jim was involved a bit more than he was with the first live-action one (which some people like, and certainly helped bring people to read the books, but for me was far too different from the books themselves for me to enjoy). One of the main people who used to run this forum (and still runs the website I believe, although she no longer does the content drops) was also quite involved in the new series. However, given the silence about it for the last few years (damn COVID) I would say the show is on indefinite hold. I don't know that for sure but that's often the reality of Hollywood.

A more recent WOJ leaves it ambiguous about lower-order angels. Archangels being top-tier are not though - I specifically think this was to in relation to whether Lucifer had been infected by Nemesis, and Jim was shutting that down. It seems the Prince of Darkness is beyond such things, and is evil for his own reasons.

That said, I could understand if regular angels simply thought they were immutable. Same for all immortals.

The point being, Nemesis breaks the rules about immutability because it is so powerful (being a Walker of the Outside - I use that phrasing because Jim does most recently, which suggests being a Walker is more powerful than a normal Outsider). But Archangels seem to be just as powerful so perhaps that's why Nemesis can't infect them.

Ethniu herself might not have been infected by Nemesis (assuming she could) and I doubt she bowed her head to any being in the last few decades or centuries even. That said, Nemesis says the Outsiders "unleashed the primal forces of your Creation against you" - that is for sure Ethniu. Ethniu being an original member of Creation (perhaps even proceeding it, depending on how you look at it).

I'm pretty sure there was a WOJ that, at least, archangels aren't susceptible to Nemesis because their nature is immutable.  Maybe he wasn't speaking to the lower orders of angels on that point because he just wanted to keep readers guessing, but the omission seems striking.

On the other hand, it's not impossible that some of the Fallen - being treacherous by nature - might make a calculated decision to go over to the other side for rewards under the new Outsider order, rather than being compelled by Nemesis.  Or the infection might be of the host rather than the Fallen.

Regarding Namshiel though, I think he's the misdirect, with Tessa and/or Rosanna framing him as the Denarian turncoat.  Marcone isn't an innate talent, or at least he's a very minor one if he has any juice at all - most of what he's doing relies on Namshiel's power. All it would have taken to ensure Nemesis' success in BG would have been for Namshiel to turn off the tap at the crucial moment.  That suggest that while Namshiel is still a dick, he's acting on his own purposes rather than the Outsiders'.

As for Arctis Tor, we don't actually have Mab's reasoning for believing he was the attacker (for that matter, she didn't actively confirm Harry's guess that he was, either, she just stayed silent to it). But I don't think it would be beyond Tessa's abilities to cast a disguise that would pass for Namshiel so long as she didn't get too close to Mab.  Just choose a spiny battle form instead of her usual one - or even cast a high quality illusion of one - fry some foot soldiers from a distance, and boom, you've got a patsy set up even if the attack fails.

Besides, on all the other occasions we've seen Namshiel fight, he seems to have a preference for more esoteric forms of magic over raw fire - I suspect it's an egotistical streak.  I suppose it's possible the attacker really was Namshiel and he was just resorting to crude fire because it's a good counter to lots of Winter troops, but it seems more compelling that someone less talented was posing as Namshiel.

Agree with pretty much all of this.

I am curious how Namshiel allows his hosts to become such powerful sorcerers so quickly. From what I understand, the Fallen can't really given you anything you don't already have. They just show you how to tap into power you already have and nurture it. That said, Jim has been very inconsistent on the Denarians over the series. Certainly early on they seemed to be super-powered terminators. It used to be that it took decades if not centuries to turn a minor talent into a major one (I think that's said in Death Masks). Yet Marcone in a few short years (half a decade or so) is doing more complicated sorcery than Harry. He might not be as strong as Harry, but he seems WAY stronger than he should be. Which makes me wonder if Marcone had untapped talent or if Namshiel is simply understands sorcery so well he can transform any talent into a powerful being very quickly (perhaps even has special gifts in this regard).

I do really quite like the idea of someone setting up Namshiel for Mab to be angry at (along with the other Denarians) and Marcone paying the price, despite neither he nor Namshiel actually being involved. I am not saying it's actually what happened, but it would make for compelling reading.

They are I believe the same thing, the Outsiders split when they disagreed with creation, the Fallen split over the rise of humanity.

In that case the Hosts of the Fallen are already nemfected.

Do you believe Angels, Fallen and Outsiders are actually all the same beings? And you must also then include other primordial spirits that then became known as gods and monsters that existed before Creation began. Interesting idea, thinking of them all as simply different factions. And could well be correct. That said, Outsiders do seem to have a qualitative difference to every other being. But perhaps that just because they live Outside. I mean, you have to be right to some degree. Any being that proceeded the beginning of all Creation (the creation of the multiverse) is sort-of an Outsider, because that seems to be all there was Before Creation. Although it wasn't Outside "back then" it simply was everything that was.

Not sure it's what Jim has written. But I don't mind the idea at all.

I suspect this is the case because I don't think the fallen can be Nemfected directly.

Remember the Winter Lady wasn't infected (the mantle) rather the host was infected. Killing the host removed the Nemfection (or Molly is Nemfected...).
Keep in mind that the Outsiders didn't want Ethniu to win, they wanted her to do damage and distract Harry so he would let one of them into the Well... the plan REQUIRES Harry to ultimately win and when Marcone could have turned traitor to let Ethniu win... the Outsiders wanted Ethniu to lose. So while I agree that Marcone and Namshiel are NOT Nemfected, I don't think this proves anything.
This can't be.  All the outsiders work together (as near as the council can tell) with one will.

If the Outsiders were originally Angels and they split from the white god during creation and then later a second group of Angels split from the white god because he favored humans (with free will) they would be two distinct groups with two distinct goals and thoughts (as indicated by them splitting over different issues and at different times), they could cooperate the same as a host and Denarian can cooperate, but the fallen would not be Outsiders any more than Uriel and his crew are Outsiders... they would be three groups of Angels (Outsiders, Fallen, and Angels).

I agree that it's probably more likely the host is infected rather than the Fallen. But it wasn't so long ago on this very forum (and just about every other Jim Butcher discussion forum) prior to Battle Ground being released that most people firmly believed mortals COULDN'T be infected by Nemesis (despite rather clear evidence to the contrary, and the fact that Lily said revealed it in Cold Days). Only seeing an infected Justine convinced people. That said, there is a WOJ that deliberately is ambiguous when asked whether a Fallen could be infected. I can find it for you if you want.

Not so sure that the Outsiders didn't want Ethniu to win though. Nemesis talks about it being less of a plan than "an act of faith" in empty night. Nemesis seems to be a bit more Joker than Bane. Agents of chaos after all. Because say Ethniu did win, it would have left Demonreach undefended, and the Outsiders could have attacked the island just as they did in Cold Days, and no one would have been there to defend it.

Nothing to say Marcone isn't infected just yet. But not much to say that he is. He still seems to be acting the same way as he always does, which would suggest he isn't infected.

Why couldn't multiple spirit beings infect the same host? Harry has had more than one being in his own head! Unless I misunderstand you. Not saying I agree with CT's theory altogether, although technically all beings from Before Creation are Outsiders of a sort. Just seem to be vastly differing types!

The Outsiders definitely wanted Ethniu to win. She was there to kill Mab who's the leader of the forces guarding the gates.

And you've got it backwards. The Angels were originally Outsiders. The angelic faction is the splinter group that serves their leader, TWG, and helped form Creation.

Forgot that key part, but quite right. Mab being dead would have made for a very weak Winter - hence Mab's request to Harry.

There does seem to be some qualitative difference between those beings that are referred to as Outsiders, and other spirits from before Creation such as angels and gods. They all do seem rather familiar with each other though, certainly no love lost.

Justin wouldn't wonder why the Wardens were nervious about Harry... he would chock it up to two things:
1: Harry's well above average (for the council) raw power level.
2: Justin faking his own death at the hands of Harry.

Justin above anyone else would 'know' Harry was strong, but not as strong as the Wardens make him out to be.  The comment wouldn't even occur to Justin as cover.

I will eat my hat if Cowl IS Justin... no scratch that, I will go buy a hat and then eat it...

Justin is almost as bad a candidate for Cowl as Nameless is.

But Harry's raw power when Justin last fought him would have been a lot weaker. Not to mention his skill level would have been a lot worse. Harry finished his education with Ebenezar and then had over a decade of honing his skills and growing in strength until he would meet Justin again (assuming Cowl is Justin). So, not unreasonable then for Justin to wonder about Harry's power level. He would have heard Harry was strong, and he would have known his potential, but he wouldn't have yet seen it in action. Like a college scout seeing a pro footballer in high school. You can see what they might be, but you still want to see the finished product otherwise it's just unrealised potential.

Not sure about your point number two. Are you agreeing that Justin isn't dead?

Why else is Justin such a bad candidate? He was considered a powerful warden, we know he experimented with dark magic, he was at Kemmler's final fight (which leads to all sorts of questions if he is Cowl), he is a capable swordsman (being a warden) and Cowl speaks of his skill at swordplay, Justin picked up Bob (a demon that served arguably the greatest and most feared dark wizard in history) from the ruins of Kemmler's last stand (and how did he even know of Bob, and why didn't he just destroy it, and considering how strong Evil Bob is how did he even control it? And how did Cowl know Harry had Bob...Justin would know this of course but who else could know?) - there are so many reasons why Justin makes a good candidate. And those are just in-universe ones. From a writing perspective it's actually a classic literary trope to have the old mentor as the villain. Consider how much more impactful Cowl's identity reveal will be on Harry if Cowl was revealed as Justin. It would anger and scare Harry, it would tear him up emotionally that his surrogate father-teacher is still alive but not only alive but actually one of his biggest enemies. Not to mention Cowl clearly is working towards some skewed version of a Greater Good. He is insane but not like Corpsetaker or Grevane. He wants to improve the world (apparently through stopping death for some reason). And Justin might just have a very good reason for stopping death. We also know Justin was involved with Harry's mother, Arianna and Paolo Ortega, Lord Raith etc. We know they had some scheme around the Stars and Stones...just like Cowl. Also, consider that Simon was killed in his fortress. The White Council suspected Harry of supplying the Red Court with the necessary information to get past the wards...because he was Justin's student, and Justin was once Simon's student. Justin was only ruled out because of his apparent death. Yet we know Cowl and the Red Court worked together, and we know Harry didn't give out the information. So unless Simon is Cowl, or some other student of Simon was involved (the least likely story-wise), Justin makes for a good candidate. Cowl hides his face because he doesn't wish to give out any information. Justin is supposedly dead, so fairly good reason to cover his face. Cowl wants to bring down the White Council for having too many restrictions, Justin also felt that the Council has too many restrictions (as he learned from his master too).

Kumori as Elaine also works very well, given Kumori is both powerful (like Elaine), friendly with Harry (even though she shouldn't really be), quite likely was involved in Aurora's corruption (which Elaine was in a prime position to do), Kumori picked up Harry's force rings (which Harry remarks almost no-one picks up, but Elaine would given she studied under the same master and would know Harry's style and training), and Kumori is tall enough to hold a knife to Harry's throat (which is tricky for most women given Harry's height, but Elaine is at least six foot), and if Elaine is Kumori she is far more likely to work for Justin (as Cowl) than some other Cowl (because what link would Elaine have to some other Cowl?) Kumori as Elaine is still the most popular theory, and for good reason. It's the most likely. Also adds to Harry's betrayal and isolation.

If not Justin, who do you believe it is? Who is so familiar with Harry who is a powerful and well-trained (White Council level) wizard, who also might have experience with necromancy, who hits hard (perhaps harder) than a Senior Council wizard?

I honestly had never considered Nameless. I am hoping CT will explain his idea further. It's intriguing, even if I can't yet see it myself. One of the main reasons I don't think it works is that Nameless is closer to being a demigod and but Cowl's magic feels human (even if it's incredibly strong).

It’s likely Justin was working for Cowl, we know Nameless worked with Kemmler, he went to winter but couldn’t take Bob with him without incurring Mab’s wrath, so he handed him off to Justin. Justin may have only joined the Wardens in the first place as Nameless inside man.

When did Nameless work for Kemmler? Also, assuming your theory is correct, why would Nameless use a dark wizard and later hexenwolves as bait to flush out the information that Harry has Bob? And why would that reveal Bob is in Harry's possession?

Justin got Bob from Kemmler's effects after the White Council dealt with him. If Nameless had ever possessed him, he'd have told Harry in The Law.

Agreed.