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Messages - Yuillegan

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1246
DF Spoilers / Re: The Arthurian Connection
« on: February 07, 2019, 06:13:48 AM »
Bad Alias that's a good insight into his inspiration, so thank you for that.

Sort of the other way round though - Christianity when it traveled across the sea borrowed and converted stories from English and Norse mythology, though of course it did end up going both ways in the end.

Which I totally respect Jim for doing btw (not using religion he isn't comfortable handling). But I think he could also get educated too. There is a wide world of information and honestly so many people from various faiths that would be happy to walk you through. He has already touched on Rakasha Raja - and in all honesty I wouldn't mind finding out what else goes on in the rest of Dresden's Earth. There are more places than Chicago, let alone America. Not everything significant would happen there - it just doesn't add up.

But I was more getting at the fact that from a philosophical and historical point of view, it is highly interesting the connections that exist. Jim has clearly done his homework so I am sure he has something very special that will link them together - and I think that bears further reflection and deliberation on. I cannot wait till we get to the deep stuff and pull the camera out further.

1247
DF Spoilers / Re: Our
« on: February 07, 2019, 05:24:13 AM »
It unlikely, the way I see it (unless Jim is severely rewriting mythology, or just got it very wrong) that anyone but Mother Winter could be either Skuld or Atropos. Which I understand the issue, because the youngest of the triple goddess should be Skuld (i.e one of the Ladies) but clearly the mantle fits better in Mother Winter's Death Aspect.

Here is my interpretation. We see the Queens as separate - because we view the world through Harry's limited human perception. However the "truth" could be that ALL of the Winter Queens are Winter (of which Mother Winter is the least human) and ALL Queens of Faerie total up to something greater...there is every chance that Mother Summer's use of "our" included ALL Queens of Faerie. The Name of such a being might well be Fate, Gaia, God or something else that Jim has dug up/created. I think this is why Harry is partly wrong/stupid because he only see's the Mother's linked, not all the Queens adding up to something greater than the some of their parts.

Their are many, many versions of the Triumverate in many religions and mythologies. Triple Goddess of Wicca, Brahmic Trinity, Devi Trinity, Catholic Trinity, Greek Fates, Norse Norns, Egyptian Ra and many others. I have long wondered if sum of the Queens represents all of that.

1248
DF Spoilers / Re: The Arthurian Connection
« on: February 06, 2019, 11:39:21 AM »
Right you are Avernite - I have corrected it to say Artemis. No idea why I put Demeter...perhaps alliteration. The Summer connection is interesting...I will muse on that. I have always wondered how other Deities in the Greco-Roman pantheon factored in against Hecate. In most traditions Hecate is the daughter of Atlas (the Titan) and is nowhere near as powerful (might wise) as Hades or Zeus. Not sure how she would compare to Artemis but I imagine similarly ranked. Which is confusing considering the enormous might of all six Queens of Faerie. Though I admit in some versions Hecate had influence over the Underworld, Sea and Sky as a gift for helping the Olympians during the Titanomachy (Titan war).  Hades seems only to rank in at about Mab's level...maybe higher, maybe not (he seems to have less influence in this age, by his own admission). I seem to remember an old WAG about Hecate being the one who split herself, and that perhaps a number of gods (whose influence in the world was waning) poured much of their power into the Queens.

Yeah it is a bit of a mess - but there are some strong connections, especially the Elaine one that really tells me I am close to whatever Jim's plan for her is.

1249
DF Spoilers / The Arthurian Connection
« on: February 06, 2019, 07:27:52 AM »
There are many links the the Arthurian myths in the Dresden Files, and not merely the traditional myths but the many retellings and adaptations.  I am just throwing thoughts out of my head to work them out here - and will clean this up soon.

There are several archetypes/roles in the Arthurian Legend:

The Rightful King - Arthur. In Dresdenverse, this would be a likely someone like Michael, though Arthur is probably more fallible. Interestingly, as the story became more Christianized the idea that Arthur became "Rightful" rather like God/Jesus being the true King. This is important. Marcone is also a candidate - though that would be quite dark.
The Wizard/Druid - Merlin. Clearly this is Harry, he is not meant to rule but to be a part of events. Now obviously there is/was an "original" Merlin who began the White Council and changed the world, and excluding Time Travel and working with the fact that he is dead, Harry Dresden is clearly being lined up for this role.
The Enemy - Morgan(a) Le Fay. Again, clearly already exists/ed in DV but assuming she is dead the current candidates are not so easy. A few candidates stand out: Elaine (assuming she is evil), Kemmler (bear with me - the evil Wizard behind everything), an unknown threat.
The Weapon - Mordred. His whole purpose is to be the weapon that kills the rightful king. Nothing like the power of patricide. Harry could fit this role, as he has often been described as a weapon and used as such. Also possibly Marcone, though he feels a bit old for the role.  However, more likely this will be something out of left field - maybe like a future apprentice of Harry's/child (for a guy who doesn't get much, he sure seems to keep having kids!)
The Knights of the Round Table - Clearly the Knights of the Cross fulfill this role.

Nimue, the Lady of the Lake is a central and important figure. She is Lancelot's fairy godmother. She is notable for giving Arthur Excalibur and giving Lancelot the Holy Grail. She refused to give Merlin all her love until he taught her all his secrets, and then she locked him away (originally either beneath a stone or in a hawthorn tree - pay attention, in DV Dresden gets stung with a hawthorn dart during Cold Days and there are several significant stones (Stone Table, Stone Statues etc). In other versions it is an invisible tower or a cave (Demonreach - and yes I know Jim says it isn't Merlin in the crystal, doesn't mean he isn't down in there). Here is where it get interesting! The goddess Diana (Artemis) is Nimue (also known as Vivenne)'s godmother and Nimue's father is...the god Dionysus (Bacchus)! Interestingly, the Lake she is associated with is sometimes considered the Lake of Diana in Sicily - where Queen Diana (who was worshiped as a goddess) was murdered. This is where Lancelot du Lac (of the Lake) was raised. In some versions - Morgan Le Fay is Nimue too residing in a town named Ninniane (one of the names of the Lady of the Lake). In the Hellboy comics, Nimue was locked away and arises to supplant Hecate as Queen of the Witches. She is the Queen of Blood and takes up the mantle of the Morrigan and leads an army of legendary and folkloric beings. In the 80s novel "The Mists of Avalon" the Lady of the Lake and Merlin are offices in the pagan heirachy, Merlin is a young druid and Lady of the Lake is the ruling priestess of Avalon. Multiple characters hold the mantle of Lady of the Lake including Morgan Le Fay, Vivienne, Niniane and Nimue.

In Dresdenverse who is the Lady of the Lake? - Leanansidhe seems a bit on the nose, so it leaves a few options to who the original was. Mab (when she was Lady) is possible, she would have been quite young as that would have predated Hasting by several hundred years. It is possible that Morgan Le Fay literally held the Mantle of the Lady of the Lake (whatever that mantle actually is) and either gave it up or died - and so have several other beings. Perhaps the mantle is one of the six queens, perhaps something else. Perhaps Nemesis the Greek Goddess is "Nemesis" and Hecate is the six Queens of Faerie and everything is just them having a shit fight...Nemesis is "Outsider Nemesis" is Nimue, uniting the formor and intends to supplant Hecate, who are the Queens of Faerie.

Other interesting connections

Elaine Mallory - Interestingly close to the Summer Court, shares a name with Thomas Malory (who wrote Le Morte d'Arthur - which the myth of King Arthur is based), candidate for being Kumori. Could she be the Morgan Le Fay archetype? Interestingly, as she was Arthur's half sister and also the mother of his bastard son and killer Mordred, considering my theory that Harry and Elaine are half sisters her candidacy gets stronger. Also is the name of the DAUGHTER of the Fisher King. The WOUNDED KING'S name is Pellehan (named Pellam of Listeneise) in Malory's Arthur, the Fisher King is Pelles. Pelles tricks Lancelot into sleeping with his daughter Elaine, in order to sire Galahad (the perfect Knight). WTF!!

John Marcone - Not much known, pretty powerful and successful person - made more headway in someways than Harry ever has (all the more significant because he is vanilla). Could have been an excellent Monarch in ages past.

Ramirez - Feels like a Gawain (always a brotherly role with Arthur)
Butters - Probably Sir Gareth the Lovely Hands - knight of the kitchen.
Thomas - Lancelot. Hands down. Definitely mister steal your girl.

Who is the Fisher King - the heart of Western Civilisation? This is so significant I am not sure what even to say...In some versions this King lives in a castle with his son (but they are both the Fisher King - very Father and the Son) relying on the Grail for sustenance. He bleeds from a wound in his thigh (this is very Jesus). In some versions, the wound was caused by the Spear of Longinus. In others, the Spear is used by Galahad to heal him. In Joseph of Arimathea (the man who caught the blood in the Cup making it the Holy Grail) the "Rich Fisher" is called Bron (Bran is sometimes an original spelling). Bran the Blessed in Celtic Mythology has a cauldron that can resurrect the dead. Very interesting considering the Saviour returns to life. King Arthur actually retrieves that Cauldron in one story.

Also what is the weird connections between Christianity, Greek Mythology, Irish Mythology and Arthurian legend? Strongly exists in the real world, and in DV seems even more connected. Obviously all part of Western Culture the past few millennia but still. Greek Gods connected to fae, connected to Wizards and Druids, connected the Grails and Christ, connected to Tuatha de Danaan. It just goes round like a pretzel!

Wow this really got away from me. I am gonna tidy this up.

1250
DF Spoilers / Re: Nemesis WAG
« on: February 06, 2019, 05:51:02 AM »
True enough I think that Nemesis predates Creation - regardless of whether Nemesis is a Creator-level being or something only "merely" as powerful as one of the Walkers.

My theory is that the Outsiders hate Creation/Inside because it forces them to be partly real - as opposed to being spread the non-being in some semi-gestalt fashion that existing in non-existence might be. I think that is very painful and uncomfortable to Things that are not used to being real at all - and that pissed the Outside off. I do not believe they have what we understand as a Hive Mind - but I think something similar that still allows for individual personalities - and represents itself differently depending on which reality it is trying to get into.

And yes you are correct, there is just the one Outside attacking the continuum of possible realities i.e. Creation/Inside. I think that is mostly explained by that quote I linked you from Jim saying Outsiders look different depending on which Reality they are attacking. I think you can infer then that it is just the one group - similar to the Void in WoW or Abyss demons in DnD.


1251
DF Spoilers / Nemesis WAG
« on: February 04, 2019, 05:56:41 AM »
Alright guys, here is a pretty wild theory here.

In Marvel comics, there is a being of extraordinary power called Nemesis. It existed before the Universe (ultraverse/multiverse) and became tired of it's existence. It split itself six ways into the infinity stones. And that act was the Big Bang that destroyed the previous universe creating the current one.

Now we know that Jim is a good old marvel fan, and has been reading it a long time. Perhaps as part of his inspiration was this story.

I do not think that the Nemesis in the DF is the being that split into the Queens of Faerie, I think Hecate is still a strong connection there. But I do think then that perhaps the Nemesis in DF might well be something from before the Universe. I suspect that it might even be related. Perhaps even on the scale of a Creator itself. Why do I say that? Well just think about what it can do for a second. It can cause beings who cannot lie, to lie. It can corrupt the good and twist the evil into destroying themselves. It literally changes reality with it's corruption. It can take a way a mortal's free will. It does what even an Archangel cannot. That is TWG level power. It literally can create new futures - new realities - by taking away or subverting Free Will and Choice.

Thoughts?

1252
So the theory with the Spear of Destiny, or Spear of Longinus as it is rightly called, is that whoever holds it is either invincible or their "power" increases 10-fold.

Interestingly, while Harry held the Spear he didn't do anything particularly magical with it, yet defeated all his enemies soundly in all situations. In fact despite the increasing difficulty of situations, whilst he held the Spear, he overcame all odds.

Now this isn't weird for Harry as he is constantly defying and beating far more powerful and deadly beings and overcoming extraordinary situations. But it bears thinking on that once Harry held the Spear, neither he nor his allies died or were wounded or defeated in any meaningful way.

Another interesting thing is the Odin's Spear Gungnir is sometimes equated with making the holder invincible - and Odin hung from Yggdrasil the World Tree, his side pierced by Gungnir and he passed through Death as was reborn. Modern historians find this story to be a more recent one, equated with the spread of Christianity into Scandinavia where the Vikings would have found connections between the two religions and absorbed Christian stories into Viking ones i.e. Christ's crucifixion was remodeled into a myth about Odin. Indeed the Vikings were known to worship both the Norse Gods and Christ, some even having the Cross on the back of Mjolnir (Thor's hammer).

I suspect if Dresden were to use it actively you guess correctly that he will likely kill himself in order to ascend or some such. I don't think it will be as mundane as a merely stabby object for a big villain.

1253
DF Spoilers / Re: Weird Inconsistency in Skin Game
« on: February 03, 2019, 03:30:47 AM »
Groinkick - I find that unlikely considering he had forced her into a lock that brought her to her knees. I can tell you as Purple Belt in BJJ, if some gets you that good, you will struggle to get up unless that is what they want. Not to mention she had just been shot in the got multiple times. But even if it were the case that she got up in between, why not describe the action? Jim normally is reasonably descriptive and in such a pivotal scene it would make logical sense to include such action in order to reinforce the dramatic nature of the following violence, which benches Murphy for the rest of the book.

From both a logical and writing perspective, it just doesn't add up.

1254
DF Spoilers / Re: Black Council/The Circle/Nemesis
« on: February 02, 2019, 09:41:49 AM »
Not to spoil the fun but Bad Alias is right - the Athame (Morgan Le Fay's Athame) that Lea receives is NOT the Spear of Destiny. That would be pretty unlikely considering it was hidden deeply in some part of the Greek Underworld along with several other objects of Christ.

Consider that the Athame itself is still up there with a Sword of the Cross - that still makes it exceptional in it's own right considering what we know of the Swords. Consider also that Amorrachius has also been Excalibur in the age of Merlin...who as we all know instructed Morgan Le Fay. He also had a relationship with Nimue - the Lady of the Lake. She was a sort of fae goddess, I suspect quite likely it was Mab before she was Mab (when she was still a Lady). That puts both instruments in use around the same time.

And Bad Alias - I see what you are saying, just pointing out that Dresden only realised during this book that the Black Council might just be a smaller piece of the puzzle. In saying that - I think the passage I quoted was the first textual piece of exposition where Dresden has his realisation. He may well have had it earlier, but I can't find any passage before that particular one that suggests this might be so.

1255
DF Spoilers / Re: Our
« on: January 31, 2019, 11:35:19 PM »
The way I see it for the Queens is that the higher up you go, the more they are whoever they were and the less human they are. The Mother's being the closest to who they were are the most likely to understand and recognize it.

I don't recall Uriel using our. I'd imagine he was talking about a class of beings he is a part of.

Quite possibly - certainly the way the Queens and Ladies talk about themselves as opposed to how the Mothers are is very very different. The Mothers are definitely closer to the original being/beings.

I am referring to the part where he discusses healing Michael in Skin Game.
(click to show/hide)

It intrigues me, Harry was a bit distracted but were he paying more attention perhaps he would have asked what Uriel meant by "Our".

Salusen - check out the excellent GUMCT post Serack made - should give you a good base on the Mothers.

1256
DF Spoilers / Re: Weird Inconsistency in Skin Game
« on: January 31, 2019, 02:54:06 AM »
I am aware of the difference between the phrases, and that was my conclusion too, however it is a pretty clumsy piece of writing (which is pretty rare for Jim).

It is just one of those limitations from how the author sees a scene in their head, to how it is then transposed through the (quite limited) form of writing, to how a reader then interprets it. While it doesn't take away from the scene, and when I read it the first time I don't even think I noticed, it just is a bit jarring.

1257
DF Spoilers / Re: Black Council/The Circle/Nemesis
« on: January 30, 2019, 05:07:50 AM »
@Yuillegan: Molly definitely conflates the Black Council with Nemesis while Harry is talking in Cold Days. Harry just goes with it because of all the reasons one isn't supposed to go around talking about Nemesis. Regardless of what's actually going on, the term Black Council to describe members of the White Council working in opposition to it is useful, even if every single one of them is infected.

Not quite, you have it in reverse - in the actual passage he allow Molly to assume that the Black Council is merely Wizards rather than something far larger and more problematic.

(click to show/hide)
That passage is from Cold Days - Chapter 28.

What he is realising in that moment is that it is far more likely that the Enemy he faces is in far more organisations, perhaps most if not all organisations, and represents a far more formidable and difficult threat. Even though later we understand that Lily was being manipulated, most of her information was sound. I think this passage also helps clear up that not everything that is working for/with the Adversary is necessarily infected. Many are supporters and cat's paws of the really bad guys (which may include Nemesis) - possibly a mixture of the weak seeking strength, the resentful seeking a return to glory, the scared looking for protection and the evil looking for more refined and terrible forms of cruelty and destruction.

1258
DF Spoilers / Our
« on: January 30, 2019, 03:31:04 AM »
There is this random thing where beings like Mother Summer and Winter, Uriel refer themselves occasionally as "our". Perhaps this is Jim's use of the royal "our" and they are speaking in third person...but I think it is a bit of hint. Certainly it is made a fuss of when Mother Summer says it when talking about Names and Masks in Cold Days.

It has long been speculated that Mother Summer and Winter are actually two parts of a greater being...though I believe Jim has hinted that all 6 queens actually make up the greater whole.

But is Uriel an aspect of a larger being too? Is he an Avatar of TWG or some such? Was he merely referring to Heaven's power? Is the Uriel in Dresden Files a sliver of the much larger Uriel that spans all worlds and realities?

1259
DF Spoilers / Re: The Nature of the Creator
« on: January 30, 2019, 03:25:42 AM »
Quote
2015 San Francisco signing (Coopersfield Books)
I’m pretty sure the outsiders are the outsiders and they just sort of look different depending on which universe they are trying to get into and destroy.

http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-other-bad-guys-beyond-the-outer-gates-demonreach/

There you go Bad Alias.


1260
DF Spoilers / Weird Inconsistency in Skin Game
« on: January 30, 2019, 03:09:40 AM »
In the fight between Karen and Nicodemus, he has just shot Karen in the belly during their sword fight. She still manages to get Fidelacchius to his throat somehow...and then when she strikes while he is defenceless (after asking to be saved and removing his tie, coin and weapons) she then breaks the sword. Immediately he headbutts her and strikes her in the jaw. Then she fights back and loses their sparring and ends up in a lock the forces her to her knees. Then SOMEHOW he strikes her knee and breaks is, and she falls to the ground. The thing is though..how is that possible? She was already on the ground kneeling (a very strong position for a knee for a start) and then he breaks her knee and she falls to the ground again. But she was ALREADY on the ground

(click to show/hide)

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