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Messages - Kindler

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1021
DF Spoilers / Re: Marcone's Age @ SF
« on: September 27, 2017, 01:06:23 PM »
I did a quick check on the shooting and Murphy says in SF Chapter 15 that Amanda was shot 3 years prior. So, that would put it in a 95 to 97 timeframe.

That would mean that in three years, Marcone went from thug/lieutenant/muscle/hitter/whateverhewas to running organized crime in Chicago. That's... positively meteoric.

Though I'd assume that Harry taking down Bianca in Grave Peril was what gave him a stranglehold.

1022
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry/Marcone Relationship
« on: September 27, 2017, 01:01:44 PM »
I think, if there's going to be Time Travel, it's going to involve Harry heading back to meet Papa Murphy and help him with a Black Cat case. There's a Word of Jim that basically confirms it wasn't a suicide; to me, that's an indication that we'll find out what really happened to him.

I could see a chain of events taking shape, with Murphy and Harry getting thrown back there by Uriel (or Mab, or whatever) because someone else was messing with time, like Nicodemus in a last-ditch attempt to pull off a win. They get stuck there for a while, baby happens, then get snapped back to the present, being forced to abandon their baby, who they find out is John Marcone. Because he's such an important figure, they can't go back and rescue him, or risk violating Time Laws by ending the loop (or I guess, in this case, opening a closed loop).

Super implausible, sure, but why not? If nothing else, there's a pretty good reason to end their relationship if Jim intends to do that.

1023
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« on: September 27, 2017, 12:47:05 PM »
Lilly could so Molly can do so as well. We have her inner monologue in Cold Case. Sanya is wielding that sword and he is still sceptical about some things. Actually what is next is not that certain. We have the stories of course but everyone we think has some knowledge about it refuses to tell anything. Knowing you had done something that really mattered, defending reality itself. At the moment you try to save your soul at the cost of everything and everyone you are not really saving it. Molly has a purpose now and that purpose is important.

Molly also has a very strong sense of duty.

I haven't read Cold Case yet, or any of the others that will be in Brief Cases, mostly because I refuse to buy a short story compendium (I don't particularly like short stories as a format; writing them was always a chore for me, so I stuck with novels with backstory notes; reading them tends to feel rushed to me) for one entry. I don't know what her inner monologue is like, but I'm excited to find out.

I'd argue that doing something worthwhile and having a purpose is great, but that doesn't mean you're happy about the price. No matter what, Molly is paying a price, and will continue to pay it, for a very, very long time (barring, you know, destruction of reality). It's made worse since this wasn't something Molly went into willingly, with any real grasp of the consequences. The Winter Lady's Mantle was shoved down her throat.

Being willing to pay a cost to make the best of a bad situation is different from being happy about it. She may not care about it in a hundred years when the Mantle asserts itself and pieces of Molly's personality get chipped away, but I'd be willing to bet she cares now.

I'd say that things may be turning out for the best with Molly as the Winter Lady, but that doesn't preclude it from being tragic.

1024
DF Spoilers / Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« on: September 26, 2017, 07:36:45 PM »
I don't know about them being forgotten in the well.  If you're an (effectively) Immortal being and your buddy, also and Immortal is locked up in the well, are you going to forget them?

I'm beginning to think that part of the goal of Peace Talks will be for the Fomor to negotiate the release of some of the inmates.

I'm not sure that applies; I've always thought that it was mortal memory that counted, for the Oblivion War and other things. Like Mab working with Disney (conjecture by Harry in Cold Days) to spread fairy tales in the last century. She should have all the Sidhe belief she needs, what with the millions of soldiers hanging out at the Outer Gates. I figured similar rules apply to Cthulhu.

1025
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« on: September 26, 2017, 06:53:24 PM »
That is a very Christian point of view. Mab is not a Christian.

I didn't mean to imply Christianity, and if it came off that way, I'm sorry; I was speaking of souls. We have several entities and several afterlives, including, for instance, Hades. There is direct proof and evidence that souls live on past death in some form or another—even if it's torturous. If a soul is a requirement for the afterlife—again, I'm not saying Heaven—and the Fae mantles, in some way or another, eliminate the soul, what happens to it? Does it still exist? Or did Mab (and is she herself) consign at least two daughters and a relative innocent to eventual Oblivion—cessation of existence?

Can, for instance, Aurora's soul, what was left of it, experienced some kind of afterlife? Or was her soul completely consumed, and there was nothing that could move on? And, if it was consumed, what happened to it? It can't be destroyed; it has to be converted in some fashion, assuming that thermodynamics applies. Is it used up as fuel for the Mantle? What happens when it runs out completely?

It's like when Dresden worries about using too much Soulfire and, you know, dying. The Soulfire I can understand, because it's converting soul to energy multiplicatively. My questions are basically if there is a similar function that takes place with the mantles?

All that other stuff aside, even taking the Christian point of view into account—how will Michael, whose whole life is built around Catholicism, react if he finds out about the soul thing? From his perspective, assuming the above suppositions are true, his firstborn will never, no matter what, be able to join him in Paradise.

I'll be over here trying to get the image of a weeping Michael out of my head now.

1026
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« on: September 26, 2017, 04:29:28 PM »
Well, if their souls are lost, what happens to them? There is direct confirmation of an afterlife in the Dresden Universe. Does that soul get to move on when the mantle gets crammed in there? Will it ever? Because if it just gets consumed, then Mab sentenced Molly, Maeve, and Sarissa to actual, literal oblivion, eternity-wise.

1027
DF Spoilers / Re: Denarian Dresden
« on: September 25, 2017, 07:01:51 PM »
Probably not that much older than Cassius, time enough to be saved if the dresdenverse follows Christian mythology.

None of them can be older than about 2,000 years (give or take a few decades), yet we saw one of them collapse into dust pretty much immediately after the aquarium fight in Small Favor. It could be that death accelerated the process, or that the Noose would halt or slow it for Nicodemus. Cassius started aging rapidly, but managed to make it a few years, though I didn't get the feeling that he was that old.

I think the Noose might be a difference maker. He didn't pull a Holy Grail scene from the end of Last Crusade and turn into a desiccated husk when he gave up the coin briefly in Skin Game—but that also could have been a clue that he wasn't really setting it aside.

1028
DF Spoilers / Re: Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.
« on: September 25, 2017, 06:36:06 PM »
Just an FYI, the fact that Dresden would agree with me one of the reasons I love this series. You rarely see heroes like Dresden anymore because too many people who write stories have a morality system where the only true crime is to dare call anything evil, or anything good.

I tend to agree; I really don't like the way false moral equivalency has spread through much of modern fiction. Functionally, I understand the need to have a heroic protagonist agonize over killing a bad guy—because emotional torment is useful to the narrative—but, really, too many characters make outright idiotic decisions because they simply refuse to recognize evil when they see it.

Dresden is a good compromise. He makes the hard choice, but feels bad about it. For reference, see his emotional state in Proven Guilty, after killing Corpsetaker. He's still guilty (pun unintended) about it—funny enough, not so much with Cassius, which he should feel guiltier about, considering the guy was down for the count when he had Mouse off him.

As for morality and vampires... well. You know. Murderers, seducers, and so on. There are likely outliers in terms of moral code, like Thomas, but they're functionally evil, because they do evil things. You don't have the right to someone else's life or liberty. Being born or forced into taking it doesn't relieve culpability in my book.

1029
DF Spoilers / Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« on: September 22, 2017, 05:31:51 PM »
One reason for the ritual is that Justin is about to go public with Harry and Elaine.   They will get introduced to other wizards, learn about the laws of magic, etc.  At some point Justin MUST do this as he cannot isolate himself for decades to train them in secret.  He is a warden after all and has responsibilities.    If Justin was black council, remember they were working towards a war 30 years in the future (during Grave Peril) which means close to 40 years in the future when Justin had Harry as apprentice.  That is a VERY long time to go into hiding or retain the blind trust of an apprentice. 

While it might be perfectly possible to isolate and brainwash kids to be loyal, such behavior is very hard to instill in a very independent minded and stubborn teenager who you have only worked with for 1-2 years.  It might be enough to earn a significant measure of loyalty and trust, but not the level of control Justin might want if he sees Harry (or Elaine) as dangerous weapons even if he trained them for another decade as apprentices. 

Keep in mind that Justin did not come across as super charismatic or loving to Harry.  Also keep in mind that Harry was willing to walk away fro Eb (who he was much more fond of) in a heartbeat when he realized that Eb was acting contrary to the principles he preached.   If Justin was perceptive enough to understand this aspect of Harry's character, then he knew he would not be able to effectively control Harry's behavior while openly doing bad things.   

Harry walked away from Eb when he was a grown man, after he perceived him as walking away from the principles he taught him. Harry certainly loved and respected him more than Justin, because the circumstances were significantly different. Justin's sudden betrayal made Ebenezer's kindness and patience way, way more impactful.

On the flip side of things, if he understood Harry's stubborn moral code and realized he wouldn't side with him, then his approach was actually dumber. The kids sleep in his house. He, presumably, prepares meals for them. It's as simple and straightforward as drugging dinner and enthralling them both while they're asleep, or keeping one down while he works on the other. He doesn't even need to head to the pharmacy or anything; he can brew an effective potion with Bob. The whole process could've been done painlessly and simply, which is why his approach seems so hackneyed.

It makes me think that either: A) Something changed for Justin and he had to change his plans on the fly, B) Something about Justin changed, and he had his switch flipped from "a-hole" to "evil," or C) This is an "Evil Cannot Comprehend Good" situation and Justin thought that Harry would be okay with what went on.

I'm not necessarily saying that Lea and Harry and Elaine's interpretations of Justin's actions are definitely wrong, just that the events from Harry's perspective raise questions for me. I'd really like to know what Justin said to Elaine before he whammied her.


1030
DF Spoilers / Re: Starborn idea
« on: September 22, 2017, 05:06:20 PM »
I don't know how much he could study it, it was basically a red gem if I recall correctly, sort of a magical microchip I imagine.  He couldn't travel with it since the thing in his head wouldn't let him leave the island.  At the moment his plate is pretty full so not much time for exploring the Ways just for the sake of it.  However I doubt that we've heard the last about it..  Thing is, if Harry used it all of the time to get where he needs to go it would became an all too easy plot device..

Well, yeah, he hasn't needed to use it. I'm saying that for someone with an orphan complex as bad as Harry, it's a bit odd that he hasn't spent time examining or studying the thing that lets him hear his mother's voice.

The knowledge in the gem was recorded like personal notes. What else is on there besides directions through the Ways? Seems like something Harry would want to know—in fact, be desperate to know.

1031
DF Spoilers / Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« on: September 21, 2017, 07:12:17 PM »
Justin thought he could control a couple of kids, and bend them to his designs over time, leaving them open to enthrallment. And the more I think about it, the more the "enforcers" explanation smells fishy.

It never really made sense to me either. If he wanted loyal enforcers, it would've been far easier to manipulate and brainwash than to enthrall them. Hell, if he had just ASKED Harry to help him, he probably would have, right up until he put Elaine in a brainlock. And his move against Harry involves a straitjacket rather than magic for some reason? The whole thing just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and seems like stupidity on Justin's part—and I never assume stupidity where wizards are concerned.

1032
DF Spoilers / Re: Arsonist Fae
« on: September 21, 2017, 06:44:35 PM »
Another thing to consider about the Sidhe is the way they are hardwired.  The way they hardwired for balance, and deals ect...  Saying that someone might "anger" a Sidhe may not be enough for said Sidhe to just be able to target the person for murder.  On the other hand something a mortal may consider innocent, and not a big deal can result in their death.  Because of a Sidhe's nature I don't think it's easy to flesh out what they are capable of, and for what reason.


For example:  Murphy killed Maeve.  It had to be done.  Mab caused Murphy to kill Maeve by removing the handcuffs.  With all that being said I would not be at all surprised if Mab has a punishment planned for Murphy even if it doesn't make much sense since she had set things in motion for fulfilling that purpose.

Murphy was injured in service to Mab (by way of Harry) during Skin Game, so I think Harry would argue that their account is settled.

1033
DF Spoilers / Re: Has Eb already chosen his successor? If he has, who?
« on: September 21, 2017, 06:42:53 PM »
Time travel included.  The mindset of someone willing to change the past, regardless of the consequences to reality, is just as corrupted as someone that would mess with someone's head.
Not to mention the addictive nature of black magic (as explained by Harry); someone goes back to yesterday to move their car to avoid a parking ticket, and when there aren't any consequences, they go back a week earlier to fix something else, a bit bigger, and so on, until they decide that yeah, they should totally kill Hitler, and reality is unmade as a result.

Pretty sure Merlin would have had to do some kind of time travel when he made Demonreach, even if it was something weird like stepping outside of time to observe it from the outside.That might have made Harry's assumption that he was a jerk more accurate than he realized.

1034
DF Spoilers / Re: Arsonist Fae
« on: September 21, 2017, 06:30:53 PM »
Question.  Just how severe does a threshold and hospitality protect a person? 

Say Murphy angered a summer fae.  Without crossing the threshold, could this fae get vengeance by burning Murphy's home to the ground  with her in it?

Or the same with Harry, and be like the Ebs and burn his place down?  Or is it because the damage couldn't be garunteed to stop at just Harry's place, harm would befall innocent bystandards or their property, and that unjust harm would mean the fae is now in debt to these mortals for his stupid actions, the fae would just wait until Harry is more in the open to take vengeance?

That makes me wonder if Titania fitted the bill for the damage Tiny Gruff did to the train station?

Honestly, I don't see why they couldn't. They're rules lawyers. Harry points out that being unable to lie hasn't done anything to limit their ability to deceive.

I wouldn't put it past someone like the Red Cap, for instance, to rig a trap to a shotgun that kills Harry when he opens a window.

I think the distinction might be down the the nature of the Thing in question. It wouldn't really occur to someone like Cat Sith to burn Harry's apartment down because he's an ambush predator. Nor would the Erlking do something like that, because it's in his nature to hunt, not demolish. Does that make sense to anyone else, or is this just something I'm pulling out of my posterior?

1035
DF Spoilers / Re: Starborn idea
« on: September 21, 2017, 03:06:02 PM »
She did gift him with another gem, remember?  In the soul gaze with Thomas where they speak she sends a "gift/gem" straight to his brain, "insight."   Insight has served Harry well since then..

As I recall, there hasn't been much of anything even mentioned about the physical gem since Changes. Seems a bit weird, actually, considering that Harry was basically hanging out on Demonreach for a year without studying it. Though I guess he was a bit preoccupied with making replacement gear. Maybe he and Bonnie will look into it together as a bonding experience.

It kind of has to come up again soon, because Lea mentioned a price to be paid for the knowledge—Margaret couldn't sleep soundly ever again, so I expect him to have something similar. If Butcher really wants to torture him, an enforced vow of chastity would be in order...

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