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Topics - Kindler

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DF Spoilers / Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 19, 2021, 06:39:10 PM »
I reread (well, re-listened, actually) Peace Talks and Battle Ground recently, and I don't think it's ever explained where they came from. A mortal had to summon them, right?
Except they're the Dresden Files iteration of the Hounds of Tindalos, which are creatures that find and hunt you when you mess with the fabric of time.
So, questions:
1. If they were summoned, who summoned them? Again, it needs to be a mortal practitioner. Could it have been Justine? My understanding is that magic was necessary to summon an Outsider, and Justine isn't magically talented. Justine is the obvious answer, particularly because they were attacked right as Harry left. But Justine needs Harry to take her to the Island, so why risk that he'd be torn to pieces?
2. Was there time travel during the events of Peace Talks and Battle Ground? I find it intriguing that it was specifically Cornerhounds who were summoned. Why those particular types of Outsiders rather than any of the others we've seen? They weren't especially effective at attacking Eb and Harry. Were they intended to fail, or were they following their instincts to attack time travelers?

Like I said, it's entirely possible the answer is simple "Justine, duh," but I think there's some room for debate here. Anyone have any thoughts?

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DF Spoilers / 1066, Hastings, Stamford Bridge, and the Outer Gates
« on: December 29, 2020, 09:36:27 PM »
Hold tight, because this is a long one. I thought I had posted the following claims and hypotheses a couple of years ago, but I cannot find that post. I did, however, find a Word document that held a big chunk of it, but was unfinished. Here follows my thoughts on Hastings (which has been mentioned too many times for coincidence), and why I think that, Stamford Bridge, and the Norman Invasion were the "last time a Starborn was running around."

Before I start, my claim: I think William the Conqueror was a Starborn. I think Hastings, and (perhaps more importantly) the Battle of Stamford Bridge represent the last time control of the Outer Gates changed hands. I think Odin and the Norse pantheon used to serve that role. I think Hastings itself was the conflict in which the Winter and Summer decided which Court would guard the Gates.

Evidence:

Word Of Jim, from the KC Signing circa 2013:

Quote
You said the Winter, rather, Knights’ mantles change fairly often? How often do the Ladies’, Queens’ and Mothers’ mantles change?
Uh, the Ladies, Queens and Mothers, their mantles change very, very, very rarely in general. I mean, Mab’s been there for better than 1,000 years. And Maeve’s been there….there was a Winter Lady before Maeve, uh, in Mab’s time. And she didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around. And so….Mab and Maeve, um, **unintelligible**, I leave things here, don’t miss ‘em.

I'll do my best to break this down as clearly as I can. It's probably best to start with some background and important details from the Word of Jim above:

Mab—and presumably Titania—have had their mantles for "better than 1,000 years." The Battle of Hastings, which kicked off the third (successful) Norman invasion of Britain, and ended the Anglo-Saxon line of succession permanently, was in 1066, for those of you who weren't aware. The conflict itself was basically one of succession—William, Duke of Normandy, was contending for the throne, which was held by King Harold, who was childless; William was his cousin (something like once removed).

But the conflict for the throne wasn't limited to the Normans and English: King Harald Hardrara, of Norway (Read: Vikings) wanted in on the action. But they got surprised at Stamford Bridge by the Anglo-Saxons, and were wrecked; out of more than ten thousand across a few hundred ships, only a few dozen ships made it home.

The following may or may not be related to the rest of this, so I'm spoilering it to keep this as tidy as I can:

(click to show/hide)

Now, the Age of Vikings was well on its way out at this point, but their defeat at Stamford Bridge was pretty much the final nail in their coffin. Their influence on the world—especially Britain—was waning, and this ended it completely. Before this, if you look at transcripts of Calendars and records kept by monasteries in England, Viking invasions were basically a yearly occurrence. It was an ongoing joke with my thesis adviser that every entry ended with, "In the Summer, the Vikings invaded."

I believe strongly that Stamford Bridge represented what was taking place in the supernatural world: a transfer of power from Vadderung/Odin to the Faerie Courts. I believe this conflict effectively ended the Norse Pantheon’s stewardship of the Outer Gates. I don't think that influence is a simple binary transfer, and that there was a tumultuous period that ended with Stamford Bridge, and that the Fae had to establish their own pecking order afterward, which culminated in… Hastings.

The first major, major clue in the books (which sparked this line of thinking for me) came in Cold Days. Titania states that she and Mab haven't spoken to one another since Hastings.

To me, this implies that something happened there that fundamentally altered their relationship. I don't think they were best friends—in fact, I think they were opposites since at least their Ascension. But I believe their conflict was more... cordial before Hastings, to the point that they would, at the very least, engage in conversation, the way Harry and Marcone do; they're fundamentally enemies, but they'll work together if they have to—such as when gathering power for their Courts (and all of Faerie) or defending assaults from the outgoing King of the Hill, Odin.

I’d like to review a few facts before I get into further supposition and theorizing.

1. Jim has stated that Mab has held her mantle for “over 1,000 years.” Unless the DF is actually set a century in the future, that means that the Fae Courts definitely existed during Hastings, and that Mab was the Queen of Winter.
2. The Winter Lady before Maeve was killed.
3. [The Winter Lady] “didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.”
Originally, I had thought that Hastings was when Mab and Titania became Queens of their Courts. However, the WOJ above kind of makes that impossible. Something prior killed both Queens of Faerie, something dating anywhere from 500(ish)–1,000 AD. It’s entirely possible that there was a conflict going on between the Queens during Saint Augustine’s spread of Christianity to Britain in 595. It’s possible that the Vikings were involved. There was a lot of conflict in England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales during that period. The Danish invaded (and settled there), there were conflicts over succession, etc. It is also worth noting that I believe this to be the period during which the White Council in its current form was founded by Merlin.

Now, the Word of Jim on the “1,000 years” piece might have been disproven entirely by Peace Talks. This line, spoken by Corb during the initial attack on Marcone’s Castle, is a big, fat, honking, stinking cluebat that smacked me squarely in the face and left me a senseless:

Quote
“Old woman,” Corb taunted. “I remember you as a bawling brat. I remember your pimply face when you rode with the Conqueror. I remember how you wept when Merlin cast you out.”
Peace Talks, Chapter 29, page 276 on Nook.
“The Conqueror” is the appellation given to William of Normandy, the winner of the Battle of Hastings and King of England. There is obvious subtext here, and it actually makes me believe my earlier theory that I thought had been disproved by the WOJ!

Unless there is another “Conqueror” with which Mab rode, this means that Mab’s face was still “pimply” when she rode with William—in other words, a teenager, a young woman—and decidedly not the Queen of Winter. I think Corb was just being an a**hole when he used the adjective “pimply” (because I doubt that any Faerie Queen would really suffer from facial blemishes the way vanilla mortals do). 

No. I think that Mab was the Winter Lady at this point. For how long, I’m not sure—in fact, it may be a way to reconcile the WOJ and Corb’s taunt: Mab wasn’t THE Winter Queen for over a thousand years, but was A Winter Queen for that long.

One last note on the major players here:

“Odin” has been “Odin” for a long time. Before he was king of the hill in the Norse Pantheon, Gaul traditions held stories of “Woden,” a kind of wizard-like figure who was known for bravery and cunning. His story morphed into Odin over centuries. This is important.

Now, finally, I will get into the series of events that I think took place. I’ll try to be as clear as possible.

1. The Norse Pantheon held Stewardship over the Outer Gates for a time—or, at least, Odin, Woden, and any other “masks” (his term) he wore did. I think his stewardship ended with the Norse, however.
2.  Odin’s influence began to wane. The spread of Christianity throughout Europe likely limited his reputation over generations. I don’t think it works on American Gods rules, where belief = power, but I think it does matter. The important bit is that other challengers began to rise up.
3. The Faerie Courts begin gaining power and influence over mortal affairs. They grow significantly for a while. They influence politics. But the Summer and Winter Courts are still opposed; they aren’t working in concert. One seeks to rule the other.
4. Their political gamesmanship starts coming to a head on January 5th, 1066. The King of England dies. Succession is complicated, and several people claim the throne is theirs. Winter aligns themselves with the Normans (William). Summer aligns themselves with the Earl of Wessex (Harold).
5. Seeing a chance to weaken his strongest opponents (and likely foreseeing the death of King Edward), Odin’s own champion, Harald Hardrara, King of Norway claims he was promised the throne.
6. Harold (Summer-aligned) is crowned King. Them’s fightin’ words. Odin-aligned forces move to attack England. The date: September 25, 1066 (Gregorian). (September 19th, 1066 in the Julian Calendar—may or may not be important).
7. Summer is prepared. They attack the Viking forces at Stamford Bridge, and win. Odin retreats. It’s possible that he was distracted by an attack on the Outer Gates at this point, else I suspect he could have committed more to the fight. Regardless, the battle was lost, and Viking influence dramatically contracted permanently afterward. (This is pointed to as the end of the Age of Vikings by historians).
8. A few weeks later, William the Conqueror lands in England. The Battle of Hastings ensues. William (Winter) wins, and, essentially, becomes the King of England at this point. The date: October 14th, 1066 (Gregorian). October 8th, 1066 (Julian).
9. Here, I believe, is where the Queens die. I don’t think they fell during Hastings, but in the desperate clashes that were happening in England-Above-England. I believe that Winter and Summer clashed alongside the Normans and Anglo-Saxons.
10. I think their fight lasted for weeks. William’s fight wasn’t quite done after Hastings, too: he marched around England putting down resistance wherever he found it. He was crowned King until December 25th. In other words: the conflict continued for weeks afterward, and may very well have continued during Samhain, when Immortals can die.
11. The Queens kill each other—or, possibly, William kills them. At the beginning of this post, I claim that William is a Starborn. I think it’s possible that he was a Starborn, and might have been a Wizard for all we know (he kind of has to be for the 666-year clause to fit).

Here, now, my line of thinking is much less certain. I see two most likely possibilities, and trying to square either one of them with WOJ is difficult. Which one is correct depends on the starting state of the Faerie Courts.

   A.   Mab and Titania are already in the Courts, as Ladies. The Queens die, and they both ascend. Their daughters become the next Ladies.
   B.   Mab and Titania are humans (or changelings). The conflict between Courts is so severe that the Queens and the Ladies die. Mab and Titania then simultaneously become the Ladies, and then immediately ascend to Queen. Their daughters become the new-new Ladies. Note that it may not have been “immediate.” It’s possible that the Ladies died, Mab and Titania were Called, and then the Queens died. But the Ladies had to die first.
Winter won Hastings. I believe they also beat Summer, and became the “greater” of the two Courts.

Whichever of the above happened, I finish my claims by stating that, in the aftermath of Stamford Bridge and Hastings, with Norse influence waning and the Courts growing, Odin abdicated his role as Defender of Reality, and Winter—the entity of the next greatest power and influence—took over. Summer, which lost the struggle against Winter, was granted enough power and influence to serve as the check against Winter. (I assume this role was previously filled by Jotunheim during the Norse stewardship.)

And that wraps up my thoughts on Hastings, Stamford Bridge, and the Outer Gates.

Arguments and criticisms are welcome.

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I've been away from the forum for a while (nothing personal, it's just been a hectic year since the Plague broke out); I've gone over most of the threads from the past few months (at least the titles and first page or two), but please forgive me if this has been asked and discussed ad nauseum previously. Since it's still new, I'm prioritizing this over finishing a lengthy post about Hastings.

Personally, I think a lot of people may have overlooked this bit; I think it's more important than it appears at first glance.

1. At the end of Battle Ground, Harry performs a ceremony during which he knights about fifty of his volunteers from the Battle of the Bean (those who were willing to attend the funeral/memorial). He names them "The Knights of the Bean and Defenders of Chicago."

2. He gives each of them a pin with a lima bean on it, and makes this precise promise to them: "If you or anyone you love is ever in danger, come and find me. If it isn't you, tell them to show me this. I will help. No questions asked."

There are a handful of ways to interpret this—meaning the consequences of giving them favors, not really his motivation for doing so. I think his motivation is pretty clear: Harry wanted to repay them for their help; I don't think Chicago would've survived without them. It makes sense that he'd want to do what he could to help them out after they gave (and lost) so much.

But I think there are more consequences (and implications) than Harry promising a favor to fifty-ish people.

1. He balanced the scales. They rendered him a service, so he must fulfill his end of an unspoken bargain by offering one in kind. The implication here is that Harry is becoming more Fae than he was at the start of the book; sure, that's kind of obvious, and there are blatant signs starting in Cold Days about this exact thing happening. But this is the first time we've seen something like this from Harry at this scale (which is fair, because we've never seen ANYTHING like the Banner, either).

2. He gave himself an obligation. He promised to help them, no questions asked. Harry can't turn them down (not that he would unless it was something REALLY bad), or he'll face consequences.

But as Lea pointed out in Ghost Story, Harry's obligations are Winter's obligations too; Mab herself may be thereby bound to fulfill the promise if Harry is unable to. I don't know how she'll react to it if it comes to that, but regardless, this could get messy somewhere down the line.

3. Harry has set himself up as a kind of... I don't even really know. A Champion?
In my head, this promise is similar to what Harry's done with Toot Toot since Storm Front. One of my favorite scenes in the duology was everyone coming to a dead stop when Harry called up the 'Za Lord's Guard and the sky was blanketed with the Little Folk.

His relationship with them was originally based on obligation and payment; as Harry continued to keep his promises with the Little Folk, Toot Toot got bigger and more Fae joined the Guard.

It's not exactly the same—humans aren't going to double in size because someone kept a promise—but I think that there is some kind of exchange of power taking place here.
I've mentioned many times on this forum over the years that Mother Summer's words in Cold Days—"Power has purpose"—has made me wonder if the inverse is true: "Purpose has power."

It's literally true for the Fae: they can gain power literally by bargaining (in other words, by acquiring a purpose and fulfilling it). We saw it with the explanation of Fidelacchius's transformation in Peace Talks—it gained power by limiting the ways that power can be applied.

In other words: I think that Harry did more than he intended to with this Knighting ceremony. I think he not only gave those fifty people a bit of power (I don't mean literally; for them, the power they received is the ability to ask a guy who can throw fire around for a favor), he received some in return, beyond what he was given by their service on the battlefield.

I don't know how this power will be expressed in the future. It may be something as (relatively) small as a part of the Legend of Harry Dresden—the rumors and whispers spreading about the "Mad Wizard Dresden," who very well might show up and burn your house down if you kick the wrong puppy. It's been stated that Harry's reputation is a big part of what has made him effective in the past; he's almost a Terror Hero at this point. Maybe this is just going to spread that reputation even further, and that'll be it.

Maybe some of these Knights of the Bean will show back up in the future, too. Maybe we'll find out later on that being called by the Winter Knight's Banner once makes it possible to be Called once more. Maybe they'll join the base of Power Harry is working on from his Scottish-by-way-of-Chicago Castle.
Or maybe they'll be used as a framing device for the upcoming Twelve Months piece that I've seen mentioned. If it's one story per month, it could be narratively useful for Harry fulfilling twelve favors, or something (and it'd be nice if it didn't require any incineration or flash freezing).

Does anyone have any other thoughts? Am I overthinking this to begin with, and is this mostly something Jim put in there because it was cool?

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DF Spoilers / Non-plot moments you're most looking forward to
« on: May 03, 2019, 06:52:29 PM »
So I was thinking about some scenes that I really want to see, but which aren't super-relevant to the ongoing plot. For instance, I really, really want to see Harry soulgaze his daughter for the first time. Mostly because I assume that Harry is absolutely freaking terrified of doing that, both because he's afraid she hates him and/or because he's afraid she will hate him based on what she sees. It would be an entirely new kind of vulnerability from Harry, who's had so little experience with family, and pretty much zero experience with Maggie.

I know it probably won't happen for a long time unless it's accidental since Dresden will want to put that off as long as he can, so it's not like I'm expecting it in Peace Talks (though a Murphy soulgaze is on the table, and I believe there is some anticipation in the community for that event).

What moments like this—ones that are pretty much guaranteed to happen—are you most looking forward to?

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DF Spoilers / How was Demonreach filled?
« on: April 18, 2019, 06:03:36 PM »
I've been thinking about what we know about Merlin and Demonreach, based on a Reddit thread from a few days ago. One of the questions I have about it that's been bugging me lately is:

How did all of those entities (things, creatures, monsters, demigods, whatever) get imprisoned there? Was there some other kind of prison complex that Merlin took over? Did the Senior Council and Various Allies endeavor to capture the worst of the worst and hold them? Did Merlin personally capture all of those things? Did the previous Wardens seek out new inmates as part of their job? Was there some kind of ritual that trapped them all there simultaneously?

Being a prison built across time, I have zero clue how to really think about it. Were the prisoners, from our perspective, always there? Was there ever an observable (by humans, meaning the past... five thousand years, call it) time when Demonreach wasn't built, or wasn't full of evil things, or both? In fact, did Merlin deliberately drag entities across time to imprison them at some point in the past or their future? Is it possible that Merlin (or another Warden, or whoever) actually imprisoned things that haven't even been born/created yet from Dresden's perspective?

Demonreach has a whole lot of mystery to it, but this is the stuff I want to know the most right now.

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DF Spoilers / "Conjure by it at your own risk."
« on: September 27, 2017, 01:35:14 PM »
I've been trawling through the collected Words of Jim for the past couple of days instead of doing the work I should be doing, and came across one that I don't see discussed often:

Quote
When Harry is battling Sharkface in the end, is that all in his head, or did everybody there hear?
And the answer to that is yes. It’s all going on in his head, and everybody there heard. Which, if you’ll remember the closing to book 1, because book 1 was written from the perspective of a guy who has already finished his story, um, all the books are really, they're him looking back, you get to the end book 1, and Harry says “My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, but conjure by it at your own risk” which, you know, there’s a reason for that. Figured I’d just throw that in there. Really, Harry’s one of those guys whose name is more dangerous to other people than it is to him, in a lot of ways, a lot of people would be vulnerable by doing that, he’s not. We’ll get to see that in the future.
Emphasis added.

Why would Harry's Name be more dangerous to someone else than it is to him? How would Harry's name make them vulnerable, but not him? Consider that, while the entity itself is dangerous, conjuring the Erlking (as far as I can tell, the most dangerous thing Harry has summoned thus far by Name; he guessed some of Mother Winter's names, but didn't have all of them) doesn't make Harry especially vulnerable.

I invite everyone to speculate wildly about what kind of powerup Harry is going to get by the end of the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy. Is he going to become a modern day god? Merge his consciousness with the cosmos? Become the personification of magic? Keep in mind that his name doesn't change.

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DF Spoilers / Bob's Personality, and Justin
« on: August 14, 2017, 02:39:28 AM »
Sorry if this has been discussed before. I'm doing a series reread for the...severalth time this year in preparation for Briefcases, and I find myself thinking about Bob discussing first impressions. After Butters takes ownership of the Skull, Bob explains to Harry that the reason he isn't all that different is because Butters' first impression of him was when he was still Harry's Bob. We saw what he was like when he was Kemmler's assistant in Dead Beat, and from that and other things Bob has said, Bob changes based on the owner's personalities—but those first impressions really matter, and set the tone.

Now, Harry pulled Bob out from the wreckage of Justin's house, that much we know.

But why would he have done that? Bob's just a skull. Harry would have had no reason to go back for him—unless he knew what he was. And if he saw him working with Justin, what could he possibly have been like for Harry's first impression of him to be... so Bob-like?

What I'm getting at is that it's entirely possible that Bob was much closer to Harry's Bob when Justin had him than we might think—which says some things about Justin.

My question is this: how close do you think Harry's Bob was to Justin's Bob (because I'm basing this on the first impressions comment Bob has made, and if you don't think it's valid, then the rest doesn't really matter), and does this mean that we might have the wrong idea about Justin's personality?

For the record, I'm not trying to lionize a villain, I'm just curious if we've had a clue into his personality for a while.

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