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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: jacenskylo on October 16, 2020, 09:47:16 PM
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So I don’t normally post to the forum because anytime I have an idea or theory somebody beat me to it and that’s fine obviously many of you are much quicker on the uptake than I am. But I was re-reading Peace Talks and Battle Ground and I wanted to put out a theory and see what everybody thought.
Judging by the way Mab and Lara conducted themselves in the last two books does anybody else get the feeling or impression that Mab is grooming Lara to be her successor as the winter queen? I know this sounds crazy but hear me out. We’ve seen in several of the books that white court vampires have difficulty managing their emotions and their appetites but for the most part Lara has always had a pretty good lid on her emotions which would be an asset to winter. Furthermore we’ve also seen with the way that Lara handles and manages the white court is not altogether all that different from the way Mab manages the winter court and that this is why Mab wants to get Dresden and Lara together.
If this theory has already been put out then feel free to ignore this thread but I just wanted to put this out here
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I had not thought on that before, but it's a very good idea. It could begin being a replace for Molly (Harry is convinced there is a way to free Molly of her duties)
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I think you are on to something, but haven't followed your idea to the logical conclusion. Mab suspected that she would die, so would have planned for it.
She knew that Molly couldn't cope as Queen, warning Dresden to kill Molly: so would have set things up so that Lara would become Lady when Molly was promoted, giving Lara time to get a hang on Winter before the enforced celibacy turned Lara insane - crazy Lara would then be in a position to kill Molly and take the job of Queen.
Mab would only warn Dresden so that he could plan a 'die for a few minutes' trick on Molly, allowing Molly to revert to mortal, and thus be in a position to become Lady again with Lara's promotion.
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That could very well be the plan, but to me if that is her plan, I think it will lead to disaster for everyone. Perhaps if Mab has a way to kill the Hunger Demon, it could work, especially if it means freeing Molly. But I cannot see Harry going along with anything less than the two for, or three for, got to include dealing with Thomas's demon as well. But a vampire Winter Queen? Mab must be infested if that is her idea.
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We know that the Fae can impact the Hunger but to what extent? Is it possible for a Whampire to become Winter Lady or Winter Queen? Is it possible for her to go straight to Winter Queen? Mab would certainly have many options in play should she fall in battle one of which could also be for Summer to take over outer gate defense giving Molly time to get prepared, time for Lara to be Winter Lady or Winter Queen, anything really.
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This is an interesting thought.
Mab believes that White Court Vampires are "mortal enough" to be vessels for the Fae mantels. She told Harry that Thomas would be his replacement if Harry didn't play ball.
Also consider that the Winter Mother was able to construct an enchantment that COULD have taken the thirst away from Susan. Leansidhe was able to quiet the thirst for both Susan and Martin. Harry immediately realized the implication -- if she could do that, then with some study, the thirst could be eliminated.
The White Court is every bit as human as the half-turned reds like Susan and Martin. I don't think Lara's hunger would be any obstacle to the Winter Mother, or Mab or even Leansidhe.
Lara would make a pretty good Winter Queen. Much better at it than Molly.
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She believed Thomas was mortal enough because he is in love. Lara is definitely not mortal enough.
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I am also wondering if a woman needs to be a virgin when she becomes a Winter Lady or if, even if she isn't, she became a maiden anew after she receives the mantle.
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I am also wondering if a woman needs to be a virgin when she becomes a Winter Lady or if, even if she isn't, she became a maiden anew after she receives the mantle.
While we don't know exactly what happened to Lily pre-SK, the implication seems pretty strong that she just needs to be not-a-mother.
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While we don't know exactly what happened to Lily pre-SK, the implication seems pretty strong that she just needs to be not-a-mother.
Somehow it seems like Lily and virgin hadn't been used in the same sentence for a while, tends to support the not-a-mother.
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That's also the Summer Lady. Requirements may be different for Winter Lady.
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That's also the Summer Lady. Requirements may be different for Winter Lady.
Sure, but then our datapoints are Maeve and Molly only. Makes it hard to get any kind of conclusion.
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That's also the Summer Lady. Requirements may be different for Winter Lady.
Thanks for proving that I am not the only one thinking that. Given than Summer is associated with fertility, I would think that a virgin Lady may not be a requirement.
But the Winter mantle is asking for virginity, not for non-mother (otherwhise, there are a number of measures that could be taken to allow Molly to have fun without being a mom. In fact, one would expect that the mantle itself would prevent the conception).
One point in favor of virginity happening anew when the girl receives the mantle was that IIRC Sarissa was trying to seduce Harry. And she was the Lady that Mab had in mind.
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Lily was upset when she became the Summer Lady that her dreams of having a family were gone.
I had originally in SK assumed that it was just the duty of the Summer Lady getting in the way and was kinda confused as to how it couldn't be worked around.
Then the Molly short Story explained it if the Summer/Winter Ladies have the same restriction.
Given the Courts' emphasis on balance I wouldn't bet on there being different restrictions personally.
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Jim has said that the Summer Lady's mantle works the same way, but instead of a beating, the potential partner goes to sleep.
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Jim has said that the Summer Lady's mantle works the same way, but instead of a beating, the potential partner goes to sleep.
Well, at least it is gentle... Did he say before, during, or after? If after, that's kind of normal... ::)
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When does it happen with Winter?
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When does it happen with Winter?
I imagine it happens at the same time for both summer and winter. Before it can get serious. Otherwise it makes no sense.
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She believed Thomas was mortal enough because he is in love. Lara is definitely not mortal enough.
Thank you for reminding me about that. In fact, Mab specifically mentioned that Thomas would give much to have his love back -- again, the implication is that Mab could deal with Thomas' hunger in someway such that he could have Justine again. I doubt that she was referring to Justine's eventual solution. Thomas' hunger is described as on the same tier of power as Lord Wraith and Lara.
Indeed, I wonder whether Justine's solution is actually real. It could be that Justine's "solution" was the result of Nemesis taking control of Justine for good. Her explanation was simply the cover that would keep Thomas from figuring it out.
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Jim has said that the Summer Lady's mantle works the same way, but instead of a beating, the potential partner goes to sleep.
Ok, thank you, I did not know that.
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How ironic was it that Harry put into play the "no sex" requirement for Molly when he took her on as his apprentice, thus setting her up for a mantle in the first place?
::)
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Well, apparently, and according to this thread, that is not the case. But yes, I was thinking on that when I made the question about Ladies...prerequisites.
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How ironic was it that Harry put into play the "no sex" requirement for Molly when he took her on as his apprentice, thus setting her up for a mantle in the first place?
::)
It may have worked out that way, and Mab would say that he did. However it was more like he knew from the soul gaze how she felt about him and he wanted to nip it before it ever got started.
Then again, it is very possible that Molly isn't a virgin, she was sixteen or so at the time when she became apprentice to Harry, she had run away from home, so the idea that she had had sex at some point isn't out of the question.
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It may have worked out that way, and Mab would say that he did. However it was more like he knew from the soul gaze how she felt about him and he wanted to nip it before it ever got started.
Then again, it is very possible that Molly isn't a virgin, she was sixteen or so at the time when she became apprentice to Harry, she had run away from home, so the idea that she had had sex at some point isn't out of the question.
Not impossible but not that likely. After she became an apprentice she lived with her parents again and both her parents and Harry watched her pretty closely and nobody mentioned a boyfriend. Her svartalf apartment did not show any signs either. A one night stand is just not in character.
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Not impossible but not that likely. After she became an apprentice she lived with her parents again and both her parents and Harry watched her pretty closely and nobody mentioned a boyfriend. Her svartalf apartment did not show any signs either. A one night stand is just not in character.
I am inclined to agree, however Molly did run away from home and lived with her friends for a time. Drugs and sex were in play, since trying to cure her friend's addiction with mind magic got her into trouble in the first place. Also the kids were having sex, her girlfriend was pregnant if you will remember? Now Molly didn't go in for the drugs, but not out of the question that she didn't experiment with sex, she was a rebellious teenager on her own, so very possible. There is a reason Harry dumped a jug of ice water over her head, she had ideas about having sex with him, that isn't exactly virginal thinking.. He told her she had to abstain from sex while an apprentice under him, but that says nothing about what she did before.
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I am inclined to agree, however Molly did run away from home and lived with her friends for a time. Drugs and sex were in play, since trying to cure her friend's addiction with mind magic got her into trouble in the first place. Also the kids were having sex, her girlfriend was pregnant if you will remember? Now Molly didn't go in for the drugs, but not out of the question that she didn't experiment with sex, she was a rebellious teenager on her own, so very possible. There is a reason Harry dumped a jug of ice water over her head, she had ideas about having sex with him, that isn't exactly virginal thinking.. He told her she had to abstain from sex while an apprentice under him, but that says nothing about what she did before.
In proven guilty she said she was a virgin, technically. In the same book Harry told her not to have sex for the time being.
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Technically? I don't remember that. Sounds a weird thing to say.
For a while I thought she had sex with Vincent the P.I. but apparently that was wrong. I don't remember exactly what is said in Cold Case, but I think she is and always have been a virgin.
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I think she said that she had a date with Vince the PI Guy.
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Technically? I don't remember that. Sounds a weird thing to say.
For a while I thought she had sex with Vincent the P.I. but apparently that was wrong. I don't remember exactly what is said in Cold Case, but I think she is and always have been a virgin.
Don't work with teen girls?
About 15 yesrs ago, many used it to indicate oral and/or anal, but not vaginal, intercourse. So, "technically".
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In proven guilty she said she was a virgin, technically. In the same book Harry told her not to have sex for the time being.
I agree with Dina, what does "technically" mean exactly? It's kind of like being a "little bit" pregnant, ether you are or you aren't.. I know there are teenagers that discount having oral sex for example as having sex because there was no penetration...
About 15 yesrs ago, many used it to indicate oral and/or anal, but not vaginal, intercourse. So, "technically".
Exactly, but it is still sex, and then being a "virgin" depends on how narrowly or broadly you want to define the term.
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I agree with Dina, what does "technically" mean exactly? It's kind of like being a "little bit" pregnant, ether you are or you aren't.. I know there are teenagers that discount having oral sex for example as having sex because there was no penetration...Exactly, but it is still sex, and then being a "virgin" depends on how narrowly or broadly you want to define the term.
Yep, and Mab and Jim have been clear on the pregnancy part being the risk and that a Lady with "good self control" can do "some things" with a quiescent Mantle.
Pretty strong implication the Mantle counts vaginal only
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It is actually a funny conversation:
Her face turned pink and she hid her face in her hands. “I… I… well. I’m a virgin.”
I arched an eyebrow at her.
She glanced up at me, blushed more, and added, “Technically.”
“Technically,” I said.
“Urn. I’ve… explored. Most of the bases.”
“I see,” I said. “Well, Magellan, no baserunning or boldly going where no man has gone before for you—not until you get yourself grounded. Sex makes things complicated, and for you that could be bad.”
“But…”
“And no, ah, solo exploration either.”
She blinked at me and asked in a blank tone, “Why?”
“You’ll go blind,” I said, and walked up to her front
You just have to guess what is meant by technically but I don’t think she had a hymen repair operation.
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Yep, and Mab and Jim have been clear on the pregnancy part being the risk and that a Lady with "good self control" can do "some things" with a quiescent Mantle.
Pretty strong implication the Mantle counts vaginal only
That falls among the dumbest things he has ever said.
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That falls among the dumbest things he has ever said.
His world, his physics.
I expect it's intended as part of his "the Fae are super old school, preChristian old school" reasoning.
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Arjan, Ok, that explains it. I had totally forgotten about that. Wow, Harry was such a jerk there.
So, if being a virgin is a pre-requisite for being a Lady, Harry telling him that sex is bad for her is tragic in rereading. It would have saved her.
If being a virgin is not a prerequisite (as Lily and Sarissa apparently imply) then it is not relevant for the mantle thing.
And yes, the mantle clearly is concerned only about vaginal penetration. Still, will it be modern enough to accept it if the male wears a condom and if she uses a IUD? :D
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Arjan, Ok, that explains it. I had totally forgotten about that. Wow, Harry was such a jerk there.
So, if being a virgin is a pre-requisite for being a Lady, Harry telling him that sex is bad for her is tragic in rereading. It would have saved her.
If being a virgin is not a prerequisite (as Lily and Sarissa apparently imply) then it is not relevant for the mantle thing.
And yes, the mantle clearly is concerned only about vaginal penetration. Still, will it be modern enough to accept it if the male wears a condom and if she uses a IUD? :D
I think the mantle is too old school for that.
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Arjan, Ok, that explains it. I had totally forgotten about that. Wow, Harry was such a jerk there.
So, if being a virgin is a pre-requisite for being a Lady, Harry telling him that sex is bad for her is tragic in rereading. It would have saved her.
If being a virgin is not a prerequisite (as Lily and Sarissa apparently imply) then it is not relevant for the mantle thing.
And yes, the mantle clearly is concerned only about vaginal penetration. Still, will it be modern enough to accept it if the male wears a condom and if she uses a IUD? :D
Non zero probability.
Academic question, can it recognize an old school functional castrati? Or a..tie on..toy?
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Not sure about the castrati, but I would say that the toy, yes, it will recognize it as not dangerous.
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Non zero probability.
Academic question, can it recognize an old school functional castrati? Or a..tie on..toy?
Jim probably won’t touch the topic with a ten feet pole but traditionally there is a great deal of significance attributed to the hymen.
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Mab eyeballing Lara as a potential replacement makes a lot of sense, especially when you look at the functions of the mantles and why they operate that way. My read on the situation is that the Lady mantle denies it's holder sex as a means of teaching control and responsibility and restraint. Once they have learned to master that then they might be ready to be the next Mab/Titania. But looking at the history and what Jim has said about each of the mantles, the higher you go the less likely there is change (I believe he said Mother Summer has changed once, and Mother Winter has never given up her post). That tracks with what we know of Mab...she's been Mab for a thousand years, and the only Winter Ladies we know of are Maeve and Molly...there obviously were Winter Ladies before Maeve, so the question is whether they were actual daughters of Mab, and more importantly, were they discarded because they showed the same lack of restraint as Maeve? I think the answer to that is a yes, and it also explains why Mab does not want her mantle to pass to Molly yet--she doesn't think she has the necessary control and restraint. Lara then, having managed to gain control over her demon (at least as much as possible) presents an ideal alternative if something should happen to Mab, someone who has demonstrated restraint and control and can operate without passion if necessary.
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His world, his physics.
I expect it's intended as part of his "the Fae are super old school, preChristian old school" reasoning.
He sounds like a 15 year old boy talking to his girlfriend.
Consider what happens if Mab dies and the brakes come off Molly's libido. Harry becomes a blowup doll and Molly's personal puppet. No wonder Mab said to kill her. ROFL!
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No, he sounds like an ignorant.
And I think Molly would be stronger than that-
Lara makes a lot of sense and she will be great. She has a great mind and is hard.
Ok, here is a WAG: Harry is destined to eliminate all vampires. He already did it with the red ones and he will do it with the Black when he kills Drakul and everyone discovers that the old trope of "killing the vampire boss kills every one under them" is true. Then come the whites. Harry will probably discover a way to do kill the hunger, which will be great for Thomas and his baby but not so much for elder vampires, who will die without the hunger. Well, that is why becoming Lady will be so important for her. It will provide an escape for Molly that did not complicate things for the universe.
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Exactly, but it is still sex, and then being a "virgin" depends on how narrowly or broadly you want to define the term.
It's not just teenage girls. I remember a certain political kerfuffle all about this in the 90s. I also remember plenty of people saying teenagers placed major reliance on the technically not sex argument because of the political conversation. I'm fairly certain that line of thinking predated that controversy and it didn't make it all that much more popular than it had been.
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Not sure about the castrati, but I would say that the toy, yes, it will recognize it as not dangerous.
Well, he'd sing with a beautiful soprano voice anyway.... ::)
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Well, he'd sing with a beautiful soprano voice anyway.... ::)
Does not work. You have to do it before the voice breaks.
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she's been Mab for a thousand years, and the only Winter Ladies we know of are Maeve and Molly...there obviously were Winter Ladies before Maeve, so the question is whether they were actual daughters of Mab, and more importantly, were they discarded because they showed the same lack of restraint as Maeve?
hmmm...daughters.... or people with Fae links like Lily.... could Molly be a descendant of Mab? They refer to Mab as in the time of Hastings... Britain.... we know Charity's parents were wealthy, and that could be a Puritan sounding name... maybe Charity descended from a Mayflower family, old money.... maybe Boston Brahmin... so proper... with a magic strain running thru the blood lines that One Does Not Talk About.... Charity ran away from tat life, but not her blood...
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This is an interesting thought.
Mab believes that White Court Vampires are "mortal enough" to be vessels for the Fae mantels. She told Harry that Thomas would be his replacement if Harry didn't play ball.
Also consider that the Winter Mother was able to construct an enchantment that COULD have taken the thirst away from Susan. Leansidhe was able to quiet the thirst for both Susan and Martin. Harry immediately realized the implication -- if she could do that, then with some study, the thirst could be eliminated.
The White Court is every bit as human as the half-turned reds like Susan and Martin. I don't think Lara's hunger would be any obstacle to the Winter Mother, or Mab or even Leansidhe.
Lara would make a pretty good Winter Queen. Much better at it than Molly.
I think Mother Summer and Mother Winter are likely tied as the second most powerful beings we have seen - either of them with their reality warping would have kicked Ethnieu right back into the water without a sweat. And since neither Ferrovax nor Vadderrung stepped up to slap the Titan down, she must be above them on the scale as well. The only one that probably can slap THEM down is Uriel. Though none of them can stop that Angel of Death if she is doing her mission. But her purview is limited.
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I think Mother Summer and Mother Winter are likely tied as the second most powerful beings we have seen - either of them with their reality warping would have kicked Ethnieu right back into the water without a sweat. And since neither Ferrovax nor Vadderrung stepped up to slap the Titan down, she must be above them on the scale as well. The only one that probably can slap THEM down is Uriel. Though none of them can stop that Angel of Death if she is doing her mission. But her purview is limited.
But Vadderrung/Odin did, one has to wonder if he was playing possum when supposedly Ethnieu slapped him down and stole Swayer. He had her and the weapon right where he wanted them, he said the word and Swayer turned on her going for the Eye. Do you think it just luck that Lara and company just happened to appear in that moment and kick the Eye out of her head? Thus making her vulnerable, it was a set up. As Harry said, in the end he was merely batting clean up.
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Ok, here is a WAG: Harry is destined to eliminate all vampires. He already did it with the red ones and he will do it with the Black when he kills Drakul and everyone discovers that the old trope of "killing the vampire boss kills every one under them" is true. Then come the whites. Harry will probably discover a way to do kill the hunger, which will be great for Thomas and his baby but not so much for elder vampires, who will die without the hunger. Well, that is why becoming Lady will be so important for her. It will provide an escape for Molly that did not complicate things for the universe.
This is very interesting, please continue with your WAG. What could happen next? My own WAG is that Lara tried to finish Papa off but discovered that he was attached to an Outsider, hence the need for Harry. She knows Harry can take on Outsiders, she was there in the Deeps. Mab of course is always looking to improve so will take advantage any place she can work it.
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hmmm...daughters.... or people with Fae links like Lily.... could Molly be a descendant of Mab? They refer to Mab as in the time of Hastings... Britain.... we know Charity's parents were wealthy, and that could be a Puritan sounding name... maybe Charity descended from a Mayflower family, old money.... maybe Boston Brahmin... so proper... with a magic strain running thru the blood lines that One Does Not Talk About.... Charity ran away from tat life, but not her blood...
We also know Michael's line goes back to royalty, so it's possible that Mab "meddled" on her father's side as well
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I think Mother Summer and Mother Winter are likely tied as the second most powerful beings we have seen - either of them with their reality warping would have kicked Ethnieu right back into the water without a sweat. And since neither Ferrovax nor Vadderrung stepped up to slap the Titan down, she must be above them on the scale as well. The only one that probably can slap THEM down is Uriel. Though none of them can stop that Angel of Death if she is doing her mission. But her purview is limited.
Uriel can not slap anyone down because it is not allowed. Vadderung sacrificed pure power for more freedom to act and more ability to influence things.
In the dresdenverse the more power you have, above a certain level, the less you can do.
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But Vadderrung/Odin did, one has to wonder if he was playing possum when supposedly Ethnieu slapped him down and stole Swayer. He had her and the weapon right where he wanted them, he said the word and Swayer turned on her going for the Eye. Do you think it just luck that Lara and company just happened to appear in that moment and kick the Eye out of her head? Thus making her vulnerable, it was a set up. As Harry said, in the end he was merely batting clean up.
I agree
This is very interesting, please continue with your WAG. What could happen next? My own WAG is that Lara tried to finish Papa off but discovered that he was attached to an Outsider, hence the need for Harry. She knows Harry can take on Outsiders, she was there in the Deeps. Mab of course is always looking to improve so will take advantage any place she can work it.
My current theory about Papa Raith is that he will be feed to Thomas but I like your idea. And about my WAG, well, I had not thought when all that would happen. The Drakul part probably won't happen until the BAT but the white ones can happen before. We know it's easier to change mantles in Halloween, so the Lara thing will happen in a Halloween, probably the Halloween before the BAT.
I had not thought much more except that before all that, when the white court is still operating, they need to solve the Thomas situation, not only the physical one but his political status. If Papa Raith really dies, the heir apparent would be Thomas, which would probably be used in his favor. If he publicly renounces his right to the throne, some weregild and Harry swearing that he was in a terrible agonizing state for months, the svartalves may be appaised. I also think that when Harry sees the images of the attack he will be able to convince the svartalves that Thomas was trying to fail his mission, obviously not killing Etri but he couldn't prevent Austri death because he threw himself towards him or something. That will help too. Also, Thomas' child (if all goes well and Justine does not kill them) will be a boy so Lara will name him her own heir. Which will become irrelevant later when the white court is wiped. Lara will be a very rich woman but as a Winter Lady she won't need much, so Thomas will be his administrator. In practice, he will be very rich and he will pay for the best education for his child and Maggie's.
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The White Court doesn't have heirs. The next monarch is chosen by the Court.
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My current ... pay for the best education for his child and Maggie's.
Allow me to spitball the two WAGs together along with some other guesses.
Lara decided to take out Papa for reasons [many guesses] but finds that she can't because of the Outsider, hence the need for Harry. Harry being starborn is destine to take out all the vamps. Drakul wants to settle the score with Papa but Harry takes him out instead wiping out all the other Blampires. Big problem! Can't take out Papa without precautions it will cause many problems. Taking out Papa would wipe out all the other Whampires and leave the Outsider whom was attached to Papa to boot. Harry would lose his brother, his niece/nephew, his wife [who he now loves], set loose an Outsider in reality, etc. Thomas is found guilty by the Accord's Emissary, Etri wants blood but Papa volunteers to take Thomas' place in crystal. Everything goes pear shape of course and deals are made. Harry takes out Eb after the Council sends Eb to kill him, returns cane to Mother Winter and gets a favor. Lara trades places with Molly as payment for Papa/Thomas solution. Harry calls favor to be released from Winter Knight. Y'all get your Molly/Harry ship and they live happily ever after in Castle Dresden. --- and I puke in my mouth a bit more.
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I like some things (like the Blackstaff returning) and not others. For once, I don't think killing a whampire destroys their children. So things are a little my complicated and I thought some sort of magic thingy will be used. It may be Fidelacchius, but it may be something of global range in Demonreach or in any other place. If it exists, Harry will find it. Second, the Lara/Molly thing is a little blurry. Third, I've never been a Harry/Molly shipper :)
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I like some things (like the Blackstaff returning) and not others. For once, I don't think killing a whampire destroys their children. So things are a little my complicated and I thought some sort of magic thingy will be used. It may be Fidelacchius, but it may be something of global range in Demonreach or in any other place. If it exists, Harry will find it. Second, the Lara/Molly thing is a little blurry. Third, I've never been a Harry/Molly shipper :)
Yeah, that last comment was a bit too much of a snarky editorial on my part. The part about killing Papa, I was going on the guess that Papa Raith was the first Whampire, like the king of the Ramps was. A bit of a reach with no evidence.
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Ah, for some reason I don't think he is so old. Or that Lara wouldn't know.
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Yeah, that last comment was a bit too much of a snarky editorial on my part. The part about killing Papa, I was going on the guess that Papa Raith was the first Whampire, like the king of the Ramps was. A bit of a reach with no evidence.
Was the Red King the first or the oldest? They were all in his bloodline. If the LotON were siblings, the curse would have still worked. Another possibility is that the Red King was the patriarch of a faction of ramps that found the Maya gods, got supercharged, and then killed all the other factions.
Papa Raith had a brother that he threw out of a plane. This leads me to believe that he wasn't the first. How would his brother have become a wamp if Papa was the first?
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Was the Red King the first or the oldest? They were all in his bloodline. If the LotON were siblings, the curse would have still worked. Another possibility is that the Red King was the patriarch of a faction of ramps that found the Maya gods, got supercharged, and then killed all the other factions.
Papa Raith had a brother that he threw out of a plane. This leads me to believe that he wasn't the first. How would his brother have become a wamp if Papa was the first?
We have to keep in mind that though both are vampires because they feed off of others, they are nothing alike at all. Red Court, one becomes a vamp when one is fed upon and is infected with the saliva etc. White Court, the vamp is born with a parasite that feeds on emotions. However a White Court vamp cannot pass the Hunger parasite on to another simply by feeding. Though the generational spell would work, but not necessarily wipe out all White Court vamps because I the different families are separated enough. Kill the baby of Thomas, it might wipe out all the Raiths, and possibly Harry, Eb, and little Maggie because they are blood related to Thomas, but perhaps not the other factions.
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Not Maggie, thought. The curse would go upstream. So, it would erase first Thomas and Justine and their siblings (Harry, Lara and her sisters. I don't think Justine has any family). Then Thomas father and his siblings. And Eb, as the father of Thomas mother. It would be up there but I don't think there are older Raiths (or McCoys). So, Madrigal and other Lara's cousins will be safe too.
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Was the Red King the first or the oldest? They were all in his bloodline. If the LotON were siblings, the curse would have still worked. Another possibility is that the Red King was the patriarch of a faction of ramps that found the Maya gods, got supercharged, and then killed all the other factions.
Papa Raith had a brother that he threw out of a plane. This leads me to believe that he wasn't the first. How would his brother have become a wamp if Papa was the first?
I don't think the Red King was either the oldest or the first - weren't the Eebs from a previous dynasty, allowed to live because they did not make any trouble? The Red King may have had a coup and eliminated any threats beneath him before he generated his own progeny
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I don't think the Red King was either the oldest or the first - weren't the Eebs from a previous dynasty, allowed to live because they did not make any trouble? The Red King may have had a coup and eliminated any threats beneath him before he generated his own progeny
The eebs were new. Not from the first maya. Somewhere after the Spanish conquest.
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Uriel can not slap anyone down because it is not allowed. Vadderung sacrificed pure power for more freedom to act and more ability to influence things.
In the dresdenverse the more power you have, above a certain level, the less you can do.
No, Uriel WON'T (otherwise BG is a paragraph), but he has the POWER. That is why Mab doesn't even speak his name. He's orders of magnitude above her in power. The freewilled below him had the power to stop Ethnieu is they made the choices and paid the price (Murphy, Hendricks, etc). The fact she was jailed by a limited earth-based entity in Alfred, less than a planet level, as compared to someone who said he could unmake galaxies...
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The eebs were new. Not from the first maya. Somewhere after the Spanish conquest.
Does the first Maya refer to the Mayan people... or the Red King himself, though... I was thinking the Red King is the First Maya, first among the Court, and they are not of his line, but another one. Jim, in Cinder Spires, refers to the Spirearch (basically the king, though not an absolute ruler) as First Citizen of Albion as part of his title.
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Does the first Maya refer to the Mayan people... or the Red King himself, though... I was thinking the Red King is the First Maya, first among the Court, and they are not of his line, but another one. Jim, in Cinder Spires, refers to the Spirearch (basically the king, though not an absolute ruler) as First Citizen of Albion as part of his title.
They have Spanish names and everything screams Spanish about them so they can not be that old and the whole culture of the red court screams pre Columbian so.
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No, Uriel WON'T (otherwise BG is a paragraph), but he has the POWER. That is why Mab doesn't even speak his name. He's orders of magnitude above her in power. The freewilled below him had the power to stop Ethnieu is they made the choices and paid the price (Murphy, Hendricks, etc). The fact she was jailed by a limited earth-based entity in Alfred, less than a planet level, as compared to someone who said he could unmake galaxies...
He is severely restricted in what he can do and that is because he does not have the free will and even if he can he will fall. Power has its price.
A lot of what Uriel theoretically can do is practically meaningless. He is quite good at working around his limitations but most of the power he has is never used.
Maybe it is different if someone directly attacks him but most of the time it is quite safe to ignore him. Power is not the same as influence in the dresdenverse and a lot of influence Uriel has is because he is smart and has a lot of insight. Not exactly because he has a lot of power.
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I don't think the Red King was either the oldest.
He was the oldest extant ramp as all ramps were his progeny.
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Back on topic about Mab and Lara, I was rereading the BG chapter in the castle, before Harry decides to go rescue people, and Eb tells him that Mab was planning something to have him in a stronger leash than before. More bound to her. Now we know about the wedding. So, how exactly is marrying Lara more dependent of Winter? And...will it work?
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Back on topic about Mab and Lara, I was rereading the BG chapter in the castle, before Harry decides to go rescue people, and Eb tells him that Mab was planning something to have him in a stronger leash than before. More bound to her. Now we know about the wedding. So, how exactly is marrying Lara more dependent of Winter? And...will it work?
Mab is just being Mab, she does what she thinks is best. Eb is just Eb, He knows how monsters behave so he tells Harry.
This marriage will work the same as any command he does not like.
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Mab believes that White Court Vampires are "mortal enough" to be vessels for the Fae mantels. She told Harry that Thomas would be his replacement if Harry didn't play ball.
She believed Thomas was mortal enough because he is in love. Lara is definitely not mortal enough.
There's a misunderstanding here of what Mab actually said. Mab said Thomas was mortal enough to be the Winter Knight, and the Winter Knight is the mortal champion of Winter. The Winter Lady is an immortal. So I'm not seeing a problem with a White Court vampire becoming the Winter Lady, beyond the obvious lack of the ability to feed. There's nothing in the text that I can see that makes this impossible.
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There's a misunderstanding here of what Mab actually said. Mab said Thomas was mortal enough to be the Winter Knight, and the Winter Knight is the mortal champion of Winter. The Winter Lady is an immortal. So I'm not seeing a problem with a White Court vampire becoming the Winter Lady, beyond the obvious lack of the ability to feed. There's nothing in the text that I can see that makes this impossible.
Not clear is the virginity requirement that was poor Carlos's undoing with Molly. Lara is no virgin, and I cannot see her forgoing her pleasures even if she cannot feed anymore. Unless Mab wants her as her own replacement, as Queen of Winter.
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Not clear is the virginity requirement that was poor Carlos's undoing with Molly. Lara is no virgin, and I cannot see her forgoing her pleasures even if she cannot feed anymore. Unless Mab wants her as her own replacement, as Queen of Winter.
I too was thinking of Lara more as a replacement for Mab. IMO this role would be more fitting for her. And therefore Molly staying the Lady. It would make sense keeping Lara close. Maybe one of the reasons for the marriage. So that she is already there as a new vessel, when the mantle of Winter Queen is set free.
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Not clear is the virginity requirement that was poor Carlos's undoing with Molly. Lara is no virgin, and I cannot see her forgoing her pleasures even if she cannot feed anymore. Unless Mab wants her as her own replacement, as Queen of Winter.
Molly didn't get a choice in the matter. What makes you think Mab would give Lara a choice? Lately, Lara has been in Mab's presence for a fair amount of time. If that continues she might not understand that she is being prepared as a vessel for a mantel any more than Molly did.
Yes, Mab might want Lara as her replacement, but that doesn't mean Lara can't start out as the Winter Lady, even if only for a few hours. I could see that happening within the story of a single novel. Mab dies, Molly becomes the Queen, Lara gets hit by the Lady's mantel, Halloween night will end in a few hours and Harry has to find a way to get himself and Molly free from Winter and keep Lara from starving as the Winter Lady.
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Molly didn't get a choice in the matter. What makes you think Mab would give Lara a choice? Lately, Lara has been in Mab's presence for a fair amount of time. If that continues she might not understand that she is being prepared as a vessel for a mantel any more than Molly did.
How about as Winter Knight? Mab knows that Lara would have no problem with being ruthless and murdering someone if it is required, where as Harry might. So if Harry is able to or for some reason has to vacate the Winter Knight's mantle, Lara could take it.
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Molly didn't get a choice in the matter. What makes you think Mab would give Lara a choice? Lately, Lara has been in Mab's presence for a fair amount of time. If that continues she might not understand that she is being prepared as a vessel for a mantel any more than Molly did.
Yes, Mab might want Lara as her replacement, but that doesn't mean Lara can't start out as the Winter Lady, even if only for a few hours. I could see that happening within the story of a single novel. Mab dies, Molly becomes the Queen, Lara gets hit by the Lady's mantel, Halloween night will end in a few hours and Harry has to find a way to get himself and Molly free from Winter and keep Lara from starving as the Winter Lady.
About your first paragraph: I think that is why Mab wants Lara around Harry (at events and such). The mantle influence may affect her the way Lea affected Molly.
About the second: Lara become the WL freeing Molly in the process (don't know details). They rescue Justine, that keeps being her secretary and spends time with her because of the baby. Then, in the BAT Mab dies, Lara become Mab, Justine become the WL and Thomas, to stay with her, became the WK (thus releasing Harry of his obligations). All planned by Mab, of course.
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My question is what is it the Lady can't become. Is it a not virgin or a mother? If it's a mother, then Justine is out.
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Well, that is what we discussed in another thread. Both Lily and Sarissa demeanor seemed to indicate that they were not virgins at the moment of receiving the mantle. So, I suspect the Lady become a virgin anew at the moment of being "in office". With that in mind, perhaps being a mother is not a problem either.
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About your first paragraph: I think that is why Mab wants Lara around Harry (at events and such). The mantle influence may affect her the way Lea affected Molly.
About the second: Lara become the WL freeing Molly in the process (don't know details). They rescue Justine, that keeps being her secretary and spends time with her because of the baby. Then, in the BAT Mab dies, Lara become Mab, Justine become the WL and Thomas, to stay with her, became the WK (thus releasing Harry of his obligations). All planned by Mab, of course.
This would be cool. I was thinking of Justine as the Lady, too.
The only part of all this I don't like is Mab dying. But this is something personal, because she is my favourite character. I try to prepare myself for the possibility though. :'(
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I love Mab too but I always felt her character was fated to not survive (even before she had sex with Harry!). But I think Jim likes writing her too, so he won't get rid of her until the BAT, and when he does...I believe there will be some way of given her a sort of happy ending. Like, yes, she does, but she kept a part of her soul after all, and she's going to spend eternity in Heaven...or in Camelot with Merlin, which would be more or less the same.
(By the way, my theory since many years ago is that Mab will ask Harry to kill her. Perhaps because of Nemesis, I don't know).
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I hope she will have a happy ending which won't require her to die. She won't be Winter Queen any more, but maybe become human or regular fae. The part with being with Merlin I like.
I'll read whatever ending he writes for her. But an unhappy ending for Mab would make me very very sad. She deserves better.
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I agree.
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A happy ending for Mab might be that her purpose is fulfilled and her scales are balanced, regardless of when or how she departs the scene.
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A happy ending for Mab might be that her purpose is fulfilled and her scales are balanced, regardless of when or how she departs the scene.
The Mothers die in the BAT and Mab and Titania take their place.
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beyond the obvious lack of the ability to feed.
But whampires does not have to... consume their relationships with victims. They can just cause surge of overwhelming suitable emotion and just syphon life energy in such form from victim, without even undressing.
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That is true, but I suspect Mab would kill her hunger.
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That is true, but I suspect Mab would kill her hunger.
I can see Lara wanting the power, but she likes her hunger, she is very comfortable as a predator. I don't see her giving that up.
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I can see Lara wanting the power, but she likes her hunger, she is very comfortable as a predator. I don't see her giving that up.
I don't see her doing it either, willingly. This, of course, gets back to whether Mab would give Lara a choice.
On a different tack, because the White Court are known for their ability and even a preference for using subtlety and manipulation rather than crude bullying and open aggression, it's difficult to know how much of what Lara told Harry and Murphy in Peace Talks about her concern for family and how the White Court needs to have the best leader at the helm, is Lara being truthful or Lara being manipulative or a bit of both. What I'm getting at, is that if Lara really cares about the future survival of the White Court, and if becoming a Winter immortal looks like it would be good for the long-term survival of the White Court, Lara might be persuaded that it was the right thing to do. Other than that I think you're right. Lara Raith is very comfortable with who and what she is.
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I don't see her doing it either, willingly. This, of course, gets back to whether Mab would give Lara a choice.
On a different tack, because the White Court are known for their ability and even a preference for using subtlety and manipulation rather than crude bullying and open aggression, it's difficult to know how much of what Lara told Harry and Murphy in Peace Talks about her concern for family and how the White Court needs to have the best leader at the helm, is Lara being truthful or Lara being manipulative or a bit of both. What I'm getting at, is that if Lara really cares about the future survival of the White Court, and if becoming a Winter immortal looks like it would be good for the long-term survival of the White Court, Lara might be persuaded that it was the right thing to do. Other than that I think you're right. Lara Raith is very comfortable with who and what she is.
We also don't know how kindly the family would take to the idea of Lara being a Winter Queen. Lara really doesn't need to become a Winter immortal, she is practically that anyway as a vampire of the White Court. Unless she was a very good actor, she seemed to be taken aback as much as Harry was by the suggestion. I don't think she likes the idea either.
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I know you know, but what really makes Lara the perfect backup is that she will probably still be there in 200 years.
I do not see why the virgin thing would be such a big problem for Lara. As winter lady she could probably rip the life out of someone by blowing them a kiss.
If it really came down to it she could live off fear.
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I know you know, but what really makes Lara the perfect backup is that she will probably still be there in 200 years.
I do not see why the virgin thing would be such a big problem for Lara. As winter lady she could probably rip the life out of someone by blowing them a kiss.
If it really came down to it she could live off fear.
But she can pretty much already do all of that, and have more fun in the process.
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Harry was pretty badass too pre winter knight. It seems likely that at some point Lara will need more power and winter can give it to her. Maybe she needs more power because Mab dies and if she does not take it outsiders will destroy reality including her. That could be a good motivation I think.
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Or is it possible that Mab just blew it? She is a great four dimensional chess player for sure, but totally disregarding human emotions her latest gambit is doomed to failure? Lara wants a closer alliance, maybe more power, but even she doesn't seem thrilled with Mab's proposal. We know Harry isn't thrilled by it, even if Murphy hadn't just been killed. Ditto on Molly's part. What I think is what Mab really fears is the team of Molly/Harry, she sees them as a threat to her. So this marriage proposal is her way of clearing the board, but I think it is going to backfire big time.
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It's pretty straightforward.
Both Mab and Lara want the additional power that an alliance gives them. It was just settling the terms of how the alliance would be formalized that was shocking.
Mab acts out of harsh necessity. And she's been doing it so long that she just snaps off orders that she expects her retainers to instantly obey. Indeed most of them literally can't disobey. She thus has no patience for questions, gives no thought to emotion and sees no need for tact. Harry frustrates her mainly because he insists that she explain and justify her orders and he's the only person she employs that does so. But Harry gets results, she doesn't have to hold his hand or leash all the time and after his experience with the Banner, he understands the burden she carries. She respects him and even likes him.
Lara is a cold calculating monster but she does have limits. Her given word can be trusted and she will go to the wall for loyal family. She wants the alliance because if you're in with Mab, then Mab is all in with you assuming you aren't betraying her. Harry is the seal on the alliance and he's loyal to family also. And Lara has expressed her attraction for Harry on multiple occasions, usually as a temptation but with some underlying honesty. She may have wanted the marriage with Harry as the seal on the alliance, but I'm pretty sure she wanted some time to arrange things.
So Mab gave the shotgun wedding order with her usual lack of tact and consideration. Harry and Lara both nearly rebelled to the point of open defiance and Mab relented slightly(but not openly) to the one year deal. Molly, being someone who can't disobey, was just left to suck it ip.
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So Mab gave the shotgun wedding order with her usual lack of tact and consideration. Harry and Lara both nearly rebelled to the point of open defiance and Mab relented slightly(but not openly) to the one year deal. Molly, being someone who can't disobey, was just left to suck it ip.
I wouldn't be so sure about Molly though. She told Harry in the limo after all this went down on the way to her parent's house.
"You're my Knight as well, Harry. And I owe you a great deal. I am on your side. When you are ready to act, I'll be there. And until then, I'll be here."
She also had Harry's back when he confronted Marcone and Mab at the end of Skin Game. It is also clear that there is no love lost between her and Lara.. So no, it may not work out, but look for Molly to do more than "just suck it up."
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Harry was pretty badass too pre winter knight. It seems likely that at some point Lara will need more power and winter can give it to her. Maybe she needs more power because Mab dies and if she does not take it outsiders will destroy reality including her. That could be a good motivation I think.
And you have to remember how easily Eb handled her in TC. If a wizard wants to kill a wamp, there's not a whole lot the wamp can do to stop it.
More importantly, when have we seen anyone choose to be a Lady? Never. It's never been a choice.
Both Mab and Lara want the additional power that an alliance gives them. It was just settling the terms of how the alliance would be formalized that was shocking.
Yeah. Lara probably wouldn't have considered marriage at all. Her people don't marry according to Connie Barrowill.
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Reality check. If Harry has sex with Lara there is a chance of a child. And if he cohabits with her what does he do with Maggie?
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Reality check. If Harry has sex with Lara there is a chance of a child. And if he cohabits with her what does he do with Maggie?
Why would he cohabit with her? He has his own castle to run. Both Harry and Lara would like to run their own affairs without the other one interfering too much. Lara would like to use Harry yes but having him continuously with her would be too much.
A child however would make everything more complicated for Harry. He would not be able to desert the child as his mother did and Lara would like to have one because it could potentially increase her power.
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That is why I hope the protection is important. If Lara can't have sex with him, they won't have a child.
And if they marry I am pretty sure that they are expect to cohabit. Which is one reason I don't want the wedding to happen. They are much more interesting each one on her own castle and with her own family (Lara with her sisters, Harry with Maggie, Mouse and Mister).
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That is why I hope the protection is important. If Lara can't have sex with him, they won't have a child.
And if they marry I am pretty sure that they are expect to cohabit. Which is one reason I don't want the wedding to happen. They are much more interesting each one on her own castle and with her own family (Lara with her sisters, Harry with Maggie, Mouse and Mister).
Cohabitation? With Harry making continuous comments about Lara’s feeding habits? Him walking around trying to save people, or just Lara afraid he will try to save people? Allowing him to see the real white court or having to put up a continuous effort to hide it?
Or Lara walking around in Harry’s castle trying not to eat all the vulnerable prey under Harry’s protection there? Like a new bunch of children just brought by Grey?
Even if they marry Harry can visit and spend some time there but they both have their separate homes. I think Harry will spend more time in Michaels home than Lara’s.
And Lara might even encourage Harry to have someone extra. It could break the protection and it is in line with white court thinking. She won’t stop her feeding habits.
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Lara will "encourage" whatever she wants, but Harry is a stubborn man and he is still inlove of Murphy. Do you think he will agree to sleep with anyone else, just to please Lara? As I said in other place, yes, Mab herself can force him to break the protection, but if she does that, Harry will be a sort of hostile hostage, a much less useful WK. I don't think any of them risks force Harry to do something like that.
And, as I said before, I think the whole reason for the sex with Murphy is giving Harry the protection. JB won't write it only to have a moment of Lara's bow burning while rescuing Thomas, so protections has an important part to play in the future. Perhaps even to protect Harry of other wampires.
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Lara will "encourage" whatever she wants, but Harry is a stubborn man and he is still inlove of Murphy. Do you think he will agree to sleep with anyone else, just to please Lara?
Of course not. Her encouragement will only stop him even more.
But it was meant more as an illustration about how their relationship would be in marriage. I don’t expect them to cohabit.
As I said in other place, yes, Mab herself can force him to break the protection, but if she does that, Harry will be a sort of hostile hostage, a much less useful WK. I don't think any of them risks force Harry to do something like that.
Mab expects Harry to solve his own problems. The alliance is what is important to her and she expects Molly, Lara and Harry to sort it out.
But no problem. Molly kills Lara and Mab marries Thomas, the new white king.
And, as I said before, I think the whole reason for the sex with Murphy is giving Harry the protection. JB won't write it only to have a moment of Lara's bow burning while rescuing Thomas, so protections has an important part to play in the future. Perhaps even to protect Harry of other wampires.
It will certainly protect him and it will result in complications.
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Just to be clear, I don't see them cohabiting either. I just say that I hope that the wedding won't happen, because if it happens, they would need to cohabit.
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Just to be clear, I don't see them cohabiting either. I just say that I hope that the wedding won't happen, because if it happens, they would need to cohabit.
I understand but I do not think a marriage will force them to cohabit either. A marriage is a contract that can be negotiated and implemented in a lot of ways.
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I understand but I do not think a marriage will force them to cohabit either. A marriage is a contract that can be negotiated and implemented in a lot of ways.
Agreed.
The marriage was planned by Mab. Mab wants an alliance with the White Court. Marrying her Knight off to the White Queen does that. She doesn't need a child conceived in this marriage, so she doesn't care, if Harry and Lara had sex at all or if they live together or apart. What counts is the contract and the duties and rights contained in it.
Maybe Lara would want a child, but there are ways to prevent that, apart from not having sex. I'm sure not only muggle ways but also magical ones.
I can imagine Mab giving Harry some fae charm to protect him from being fed upon by WCVs as a wedding gift. This would be in her own interest to keep her knight intact and functioning for her own purposes as long as possible.
And as Lara said so herself: sex doesn't equal feeding.
The matter of cohabiting: a lot of real world couples live apart, so Harry and Lara don't need to live together to count as a married couple. Maybe there will be a compromise for the sake of appearances. For example once a week they alternate spending one night at the other's home. What they do there is private. They could simply go to bed in separate bedrooms. ;) No witnesses.
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Cohabitation would be comedy gold though. More in style for another series.
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Besides, Harry has many secrets (Bob, Bonea, Amoracchius) that I don't think he wants Lara to learn. She probably has something on her own that she does not want to share. So yes, I hope cohabitation does not happen, but I am scared it may. And I still think that for appearances, if the wedding happens, they should at least be in the same place (no need to share rooms).
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Why would he cohabit with her? He has his own castle to run. Both Harry and Lara would like to run their own affairs without the other one interfering too much.
Modern views of marriage applied to what is not a modern marriage?
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If they don't live together and don't have sex, it becomes a question which asks, what's the point?
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Modern views of marriage applied to what is not a modern marriage?
Or ancient forms of political marriages. Besides the white court is more modern than the white council or the far courts.
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On the subject of Lara the Winter Lady and also Lara the mother, we have to remember something Thomas said back in Changes and PT. In PT he said it is very hard for the WCourt to reproduce, even so, he was taking precautions. In Changes, he never thought of one of his sisters having a baby. I think Lara is sterile. And if she is, would the Mantle recognize that and let her have sex, being that she can never be a biological mother in any way.
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If they don't live together and don't have sex, it becomes a question which asks, what's the point?
I thought Regenbogen answered this question well.
The marriage was planned by Mab. Mab wants an alliance with the White Court. Marrying her Knight off to the White Queen does that. She doesn't need a child conceived in this marriage, so she doesn't care, if Harry and Lara had sex at all or if they live together or apart. What counts is the contract and the duties and rights contained in it.
The matter of cohabiting: a lot of real world couples live apart, so Harry and Lara don't need to live together to count as a married couple. Maybe there will be a compromise for the sake of appearances. For example once a week they alternate spending one night at the other's home. What they do there is private. They could simply go to bed in separate bedrooms. ;) No witnesses.
On a different tack, I think Lara has made a major miscalculation in wanting this alliance. Jim has said; more than once at various book readings and Cons, that Mab will sacrifice everything; including herself if need be, in order reach her ultimate goals; which of course he didn't define what these goals are. In the short-run Lara may have get some measure of protection for the White Court and more opportunities to expand her own personal influence. In the long-run, Lara may find out her alliance with Winter may bring more complications and danger then she bargained for.
It's difficult to see what Harry gets out of this union, should it occur. Maybe he gains some insight into how Lara works and how the major players in the supernatural world work. Maybe he gains a level of sophistication from working with or around Lara. Beyond that, it appears it will be more work and little or no fun for the Winter Knight.
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Harry gets many things from this marriage if he wants them.
He'll get a security team. It won't be obvious and won't be at his beck and call but you can bet that Lara will assign him some people.
He gets funding. He won't like doing it but Lara will make sure that his castle is completed and well furnished and equipped, just to keep up her appearances. I figure they'll end up together at each home 1 weekend a month.
He'll get shelter from the government. Lara has the most federal contacts of any of the supernatural communities and she'll shield Harry because it shields her.
He'll get all this because Lara wants the alliance with Mab. She cashed in her favors in the matter and specifically included Harry and she did it before the Thomas/Svartaves problem arose. Lara actually likes Harry somewhat, has tried to recruit him in the past, and aside from verbal threats, Harry has never done anything to harm Lara's interests. He's been a net benefit to her and now she'll have more reasons to help him.
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I think Lara connections would be relevant, specially with the new Librarians. Lara may have information about them.
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There is Lara’s fathers library. It is mentioned a few times.
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If they don't live together and don't have sex, it becomes a question which asks, what's the point?
A political alliance. I think Mab expects procreation. This usually, but not always, entails sex.
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Lara wants a closer alliance, maybe more power, but even she doesn't seem thrilled with Mab's proposal.
Maybe it is this.....
What happened to Harry's first gf? He thought for years he killed her, burning down the house....
What happened to the woman he proposed to? He DID kill her. (a necessary sacrifice, but still....)
His last girlfriend? He took her to Armageddon Spring Training, she died next to him....
...maybe that is why she doesn't want him.... self-preservation...
(Did Jim use to watch Bonanza? Harry's Ben - three sons, all different women, all dead.... )
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Maybe it is this.....
What happened to Harry's first gf? He thought for years he killed her, burning down the house....
What happened to the woman he proposed to? He DID kill her. (a necessary sacrifice, but still....)
His last girlfriend? He took her to Armageddon Spring Training, she died next to him....
...maybe that is why she doesn't want him.... self-preservation...
(Did Jim use to watch Bonanza? Harry's Ben - three sons, all different women, all dead.... )
There is the true love protection Harry got from Murphy. That complicates things and Lara needs time to find a way around it.
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It's difficult to see what Harry gets out of this union, should it occur. Maybe he gains some insight into how Lara works and how the major players in the supernatural world work. Maybe he gains a level of sophistication from working with or around Lara. Beyond that, it appears it will be more work and little or no fun for the Winter Knight.
I think Harry understands that he is merely a pawn in this, it's for Mab and the White Court's advantage, not his. He accepts it on that level, that is why he mentioned political marriages between ruling houses. However having said that, Harry being Harry, I cannot see him allowing himself to be used in that manner.
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I think Harry understands that he is merely a pawn in this.
Harry's no pawn. He's a knight. ;)
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Harry's no pawn. He's a knight. ;)
Yeah, well his moves are still limited.. He is no, queen,bishop, or rook...
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Yeah, well his moves are still limited.. He is no, queen,bishop, or rook...
And more importantly, being directed by another's will. Admittedly, I've never had so much trouble getting a game piece to do what I wanted it to.
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And more importantly, being directed by another's will. Admittedly, I've never had so much trouble getting a game piece to do what I wanted it to.
It's been years since I played, admittedly I sucked at it, but I was never taught the strategies behind the moves, I was too reactive. However in college I did have the pleasure of defeating a guy who was a real smart ass. He'd smugly wander around the dorm with his set under his arm thinking he was cool because he could play chess, I cured him of that. Oh as an aside, if you get Netflix and like chess, watch "The Queen's Gambit." Fantastic mini series.
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Oh yes, I love it too even when I never played chess (I only know the basic moves).
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There is the true love protection Harry got from Murphy. That complicates things and Lara needs time to find a way around it.
Mab can send any of many fae ladies to "prepare" Harry for the wedding. She could even do it herself. She could just send him to take Thomas' place with the swartalves for a weekend as part of a knightly duty. Or Lara could use Thomas' method . That protection is too flimsy to stand up to any effort to defeat it.
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Mab can send any of many fae ladies to "prepare" Harry for the wedding. She could even do it herself. She could just send him to take Thomas' place with the swartalves for a weekend as part of a knightly duty. Or Lara could use Thomas' method . That protection is too flimsy to stand up to any effort to defeat it.
Harry has a really good reason to not want to relinquish that protection. On the other side of the equation, should Harry retain his independence from Lara's control, and do so in a public manner, that would put pressure on Lara to show that she is in charge; like a White Court Vampire should be in charge when they deal with a mortal human. The pressure Lara would feel wouldn't be much different than what her father faced when the porn director Arturo Genosa publicly defied the White King (Blood Rites), even though Arturo didn't know that was what he was doing by forming his own movie company.
Of course, there's a part of Harry that wants to ditch that protection, and it's not just the Winter Knight's mantel or Lara's succubae powers that attract Harry. He wants her. So it should be a really hard frustrating time for both Harry and Lara to endure.
P.S. There is one aspect of the Winter Court / White Court alliance that I will be interested to learn about. Will the alliance be publicly announced while the Winter Knight is seen in the company of the de facto ruler of the White Court or will it only be publicly announced by the engagement of of the Winter Knight to Lara. You see I'm not sure what will bother Ebebezer, Carlos and the rest of the White Council more; Harry openly dating Lara Raith just because it looks like he wants to do so, and, or is under her control, or if his constant presence with Lara is understood as demonstrating the alliance. Ebenezer will be P.O'd no matter what the interpretation, but the rest of the White Council may be more upset by the alliance.
One more thing. One upside for Harry from the possible upcoming marriage is that not only would the White Council have to worry about drawing Mab's ire if they decided to move against Harry, it could be seen as a declaration of war against the White Court. Harry won't really be protected by Lara from the Council, except when he's at the Raith Estate; which isn't really a safe place for Harry to be, but I think the Council will still hesitate to move against a powerful wizard who is both the Winter Knight and the consort of Lara Raith.
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Why does this pop into my brain when I look at the thread title?
Mab and Lara sitting in a tree,
k-i-s-s-i-n-g.
I have reverted to my childhood.
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Just a thought while reading the posts, I think instead of creating a stronger alliance that Mab wants, I think it will blow up in her face. Why? Even though they may not be as strong as they once were, further dividing and alienating the White Council from the Accords given the coming BAT won't help things. I don't think it will help her with the other factions either, I think they will be more inclined to see it as a power grab on her part, which is never good. Molly and Harry may exploit that to their advantage and in the end, the marriage doesn't take place, Mab is weakened and oddly Lara, who I doubt really wants the marriage on a number of levels will end up stronger.
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The White Council has already kicked Harry out for his maverick ways and his association with Winter.
His marriage to Lara will be just part of Harry's corruption in their eyes.
And Harry being married to Lara has too many good story hooks for Jim to abandon it quickly.
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The White Council has already kicked Harry out for his maverick ways and his association with Winter.
His marriage to Lara will be just part of Harry's corruption in their eyes.
And Harry being married to Lara has too many good story hooks for Jim to abandon it quickly.
Yes, they have, but with the marriage, they will be sending the Blackstaff after him.. Or Harry, with Molly's help would also be a good story for Jim to abandon quickly, it actually builds on the scene in Skin Game between them and Mab and Marcone.. Molly and Harry as a team may be too much for even Mab to overcome.. Though it might be the best decision she made, to take on the pair as her Lady and Knight, it may not turn out as she planned.
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I think the Council will still hesitate to move against a powerful wizard who is both the Winter Knight and the consort of Lara Raith.
They've already hesitated by saying he's a warlock, but we're only going to kick him out of the Council instead of executing him.
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Yes, they have, but with the marriage, they will be sending the Blackstaff after him.. Or Harry, with Molly's help would also be a good story for Jim to abandon quickly, it actually builds on the scene in Skin Game between them and Mab and Marcone.. Molly and Harry as a team may be too much for even Mab to overcome.. Though it might be the best decision she made, to take on the pair as her Lady and Knight, it may not turn out as she planned.
Sending the Blackstaff after Harry for marrying Lara would be a foolish act unless they have some other violation that revokes his current parole.
Marrying Lara is an act anyone can do, it doesn't violate any of the Rules of Magic.
It is a declaration of war on Mab. Harry is marrying Lara because of his duty as her vassal. They can verbally object all they want but the disposition of Mab's forces is Mab's decision alone and she'd remind them of that in no uncertain terms.
It is a declaration of war against the White Court. Even if she's not the public leader, Lara is the princess of the White Court. Sending an assassin after her consort is not something she can overlook.
It's foolish. Yes, I'd bet on Eb taking Harry 4 out of 5 times, but that 5th time means risking losing the Blackstaff back to Winter. And that's assuming Eb won't jump ship(They know he's Harry's mentor but I'll bet only a very few know of their blood relationship) if given the order without clear evidence of an act by Harry, not Harry following Mab's orders in a way that doesn't directly threaten the White Council.
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Let's remember that this is Mab sending Harry and Molly to ally with the White Court. So WAG time.
When some alliance with the Fomor and Svartalves was happening, Lea threw in Molly to up the 'entropy' of the situation, and see it blow up. What if Mab is really pushing Molly and Harry into the White Court's arms because she needs Lara down a few pegs? Harry will make the whole thing more voltaile, and with Lara only a power BEHIND the throne, maybe chaos will see the Court fall back into chaos, after she so neatly cleared it up in White Night.
I mean, Mab did also pay a debt to Nicodemus by sending Harry...
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I mean, Mab did also pay a debt to Nicodemus by sending Harry...
Yes, that is true :)
Mab can send any of many fae ladies to "prepare" Harry for the wedding. She could even do it herself. She could just send him to take Thomas' place with the swartalves for a weekend as part of a knightly duty. Or Lara could use Thomas' method . That protection is too flimsy to stand up to any effort to defeat it.
I don't think raping Harry is a good idea. Mab really has been trying not to antagonize him too much. And at least by Christmas they are quite nice with each other. And if a vampire tries, Harry will be justified to defend himself with extreme prejudice for the vampire.
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Let's remember that this is Mab sending Harry and Molly to ally with the White Court. So WAG time.
When some alliance with the Fomor and Svartalves was happening, Lea threw in Molly to up the 'entropy' of the situation, and see it blow up. What if Mab is really pushing Molly and Harry into the White Court's arms because she needs Lara down a few pegs? Harry will make the whole thing more voltaile, and with Lara only a power BEHIND the throne, maybe chaos will see the Court fall back into chaos, after she so neatly cleared it up in White Night.
I mean, Mab did also pay a debt to Nicodemus by sending Harry...
I would agree with this idea if Mab hadn't made it plain to Harry that she wanted the stability and appearance of unified strength the Winter Court / White Court alliance would project. Now I'll have to reread that scene again to make certain there weren't any weasel words or weasel phrases in it that Mab might later use to justify her betrayal of Lara while she keeps up the letter of her deal.
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I mean, Mab did also pay a debt to Nicodemus by sending Harry...
Knowing full well what would happen, her actual aim I think was thinking that if anyone could get access to the artifacts, it would be Harry. It was also a deal she made a deal with Marcone for him to get vengeance for Nic and Company's kidnapping of him back in Small Favor. In other words, it was a set up. Mab would say that she paid her debt to Nic by loaning him her Winter Knight to gain access to the vault, but at the same time takes no responsibility for her Knight going off the reservation a bit, which she knew perfectly well he'd do. So one has to wonder, is this marriage proposal a similar set up of the White Court? Or perhaps Harry? Molly knows something and perhaps at this time cannot divulge it, I am thinking of that cold look she gave Lara that Harry "missed" after the kracken was defeated. I think there was more to it than simple dislike.
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Knowing full well what would happen, her actual aim I think was thinking that if anyone could get access to the artifacts, it would be Harry. It was also a deal she made a deal with Marcone for him to get vengeance for Nic and Company's kidnapping of him back in Small Favor. In other words, it was a set up. Mab would say that she paid her debt to Nic by loaning him her Winter Knight to gain access to the vault, but at the same time takes no responsibility for her Knight going off the reservation a bit, which she knew perfectly well he'd do. So one has to wonder, is this marriage proposal a similar set up of the White Court? Or perhaps Harry? Molly knows something and perhaps at this time cannot divulge it, I am thinking of that cold look she gave Lara that Harry "missed" after the kracken was defeated. I think there was more to it than simple dislike.
Harry did not get off the reservation, He waited for Nic’s betrayal and gave him what he asked for. Just like small favor Harry’s plan was based on Nic lying to him and betraying him. If NIC had told the truth about what he wanted he would have had it now.
NIC is convinced lying and betraying helps him but with Harry it seldom does.
Both Harry and Mab build their plans on that.
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Harry did not get off the reservation, He waited for Nic’s betrayal and gave him what he asked for. Just like small favor Harry’s plan was based on Nic lying to him and betraying him. If NIC had told the truth about what he wanted he would have had it now.
NIC is convinced lying and betraying helps him but with Harry it seldom does.
Both Harry and Mab build their plainsong that.
Harry did in the sense that he kept the artifacts and I don't believe he intends to share them with Mab. Though she may claim that Harry's aims with them are the same as hers. However, it was a set up for revenge from the beginning, Mab never intended to "pay back any favor to Nic," nor was she trying to balance the scales, nor did she tell Harry in advance that this was the plan, which in effect set him up as well. Harry wanted her to know that he knows, he also got the feeling that he and Molly both had to be on the look out for "payback" from Mab for that little scene.. The proposed marriage to Lara might be part of that. Also important to note that Mab doesn't have a problem with lying, in effect her offering Harry to Nic to help to get into the vault as a payment of a debt, was a lie. So supposedly the Fae cannot lie, as we've seen, they can, just not outright and they are very tricky.
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Harry did in the sense that he kept the artifacts and I don't believe he intends to share them with Mab. Though she may claim that Harry's aims with them are the same as hers. However, it was a set up for revenge from the beginning, Mab never intended to "pay back any favor to Nic," nor was she trying to balance the scales, nor did she tell Harry in advance that this was the plan, which in effect set him up as well. Harry wanted her to know that he knows, he also got the feeling that he and Molly both had to be on the look out for "payback" from Mab for that little scene.. The proposed marriage to Lara might be part of that. Also important to note that Mab doesn't have a problem with lying, in effect her offering Harry to Nic to help to get into the vault as a payment of a debt, was a lie. So supposedly the Fae cannot lie, as we've seen, they can, just not outright and they are very tricky.
There was no reason for Harry not to keep the artifacts. Hades obviously agreed with it and Mab did not say anything about the spoils. He kept the diamonds as well. Nic got what he said he wanted and if NIC wanted to get out safely with the knife he should have stated his objectives better and more truthful.
Mab fully expected Harry to repay her favor to NIC and he did. That is totally separate from the other goals she had.
Mab was balancing the scales in more than one way. She is not obliged to explain everything to Harry, she wants him to figure things out, she is training his brains.
And Mab did not lie, not in the Sidhe sense of the word. She did not tell untruths. And everyone broadly knew each other’s objectives, Mab told Harry and probably Anduriel in the elevator. The only one lying and betraying was Nic and it did not help him because everyone was expecting it and even based their plans on it.
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Let's remember that this is Mab sending Harry and Molly to ally with the White Court. So WAG time.
When some alliance with the Fomor and Svartalves was happening, Lea threw in Molly to up the 'entropy' of the situation, and see it blow up. What if Mab is really pushing Molly and Harry into the White Court's arms because she needs Lara down a few pegs? Harry will make the whole thing more voltaile, and with Lara only a power BEHIND the throne, maybe chaos will see the Court fall back into chaos, after she so neatly cleared it up in White Night.
I mean, Mab did also pay a debt to Nicodemus by sending Harry...
One difference is that Harry always screwed up Nic's plans, and Harry's plans always left Lara better off than she would have been absent his involvement, excepting some minor things that involved Thomas, and not the White Court. Though, Harry always had Lara less well off than she planned whenever she thought she was the one manipulating him.
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And Mab did not lie, not in the Sidhe sense of the word. She did not tell untruths. And everyone broadly knew each other’s objectives, Mab told Harry and probably Anduriel in the elevator. The only one lying and betraying was Nic and it did not help him because everyone was expecting it and even based their plans on it.
Oh but she did, it was Nic's understanding that she was loaning Harry to him to help him in his mission to break into the vault as pay for a favor. However Mab's plan all along was to help Marcone get his revenge and to punish Nic for breaking the Accords when he kidnapped Marcone. Her and Marcone along with Hades worked together for years to make this set up happen. Since she hid all of that from Nic, she was lying by omission in every sense of the word. That is why Harry and Molly called her on it.
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Oh but she did, it was Nic's understanding that she was loaning Harry to him to help him in his mission to break into the vault as pay for a favor. However Mab's plan all along was to help Marcone get his revenge and to punish Nic for breaking the Accords when he kidnapped Marcone. Her and Marcone along with Hades worked together for years to make this set up happen. Since she hid all of that from Nic, she was lying by omission in every sense of the word. That is why Harry and Molly called her on it.
All the powers in the Dresdenverse lie to each other by omission. They all work under the assumption that the others have a hidden agenda and plan accordingly.
So yes, Mab lied by omission. But the plan she made was contingent on Nicodemus not playing it straight. He lied about his objectives(Which left Harry free to grab the other artifacts as part of his share.) and he left out his intention to murder Harry, Murphy/Michael, Anna and perhaps Binder after the job. If he'd been honest about his objectives and non-homicidal, Harry would have had to be the one to first break oath when Michael objected to Nicodemus taking the Grail.
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Oh but she did, it was Nic's understanding that she was loaning Harry to him to help him in his mission to break into the vault as pay for a favor.
Which he did. Which was the only thing he expected from Mab another only thing that was offered.
However Mab's plan all along was to help Marcone get his revenge and to punish Nic for breaking the Accords when he kidnapped Marcone.
Strictly speaking that was her backup plan in case NIC would betray her and Harry which to be fair was inevitable knowing Nic’s nature.
Her and Marcone along with Hades worked together for years to make this set up happen. Since she hid all of that from Nic, she was lying by omission in every sense of the word.
To have a plan ready in case NIC betrays you is just common sense. In fact she offered Nic a chance to be honest and get most of what he wanted but Nic stated his goal in a way meant to make it easier for him to betray Harry and of course it backfired.
Just like small favor it showed that lying and betraying is not always the best way to reach your goal especially not against the Sidhe, it gives them a handle to get at you.
That is why Harry and Molly called her on it.
Calling Mab on it was not about how she handled Nic. It was about how she handled Harry and Molly.
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All the powers in the Dresdenverse lie to each other by omission. They all work under the assumption that the others have a hidden agenda and plan accordingly.
So yes, Mab lied by omission.
Not really. Lying by omission in this case is leaving out some information so the other party gets the wrong idea about your intentions. Nic never got the wrong idea about what Harry and Mab wanted to do. Only about the how and when.
Nic probably had a better idea about what Mab wanted to do and what her limitations were than Harry.
But the plan she made was contingent on Nicodemus not playing it straight. He lied about his objectives(Which left Harry free to grab the other artifacts as part of his share.) and he left out his intention to murder Harry, Murphy/Michael, Anna and perhaps Binder after the job. If he'd been honest about his objectives and non-homicidal, Harry would have had to be the one to first break oath when Michael objected to Nicodemus taking the Grail.
Which would make it difficult or even impossible for Michael to help him which would have doomed Harry.
Nic only had to play it honest and he would have won and Mab could have done nothing about it and she knew. But she also knew that Nicodemus would never play it honest. He asked for the winter knight to get the opportunity to kill him.
She set him up of course but only so she could better plan for his betrayal.
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If the whole White Court doesn't know Lara is in control then they are dunces. Using daddy as a cats paw makes her stronger because of what it says about her ability to do a thing that the White Court values highly.
What Lara is marrying is the Mantle. What she gets from it is a chance to call on the Courts if she needs them. What Mab gets from it is the connections in the real world that she would otherwise not have. There may be other things that Jim has thought of.
Harry is safe as long as he is Mab's champion. While Lara can dominate Harry she can't dominate the Mantle. Mab would kill her or the Mantle would, if she betrays the bargain, and she is perfectly safe if she doesn't.
On the matter of Skin Game, no one was lying at any time. There were mutual obligations involved and they were acting as courtesy demanded. Nic knew that Mab was out to end him. Mab knew Nic would kill Harry as soon as he had what he went to the vault to get. Hades needed to know that Harry could win in a contest against Nicodemus in this context. Mab actually states it explicitly.
Mab can't use the weapons. They have to be wielded by humans. And her court isn't a safe place to hold them. Demonreach is perfect for that use in that context.
One of the side effects of putting Thomas in stir is that it removes him as a tool. Neither Harry of Lara can use him.
One side note mentioned in another thread. This, we're going to take a boat trip, is getting old and stale. Since Harry can't use the ways to get to Demonreach then the teleportation used by Marcone is a perfect plot device to cut out boat trips.
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On the matter of Skin Game, no one was lying at any time. There were mutual obligations involved and they were acting as courtesy demanded. Nic knew that Mab was out to end him. Mab knew Nic would kill Harry as soon as he had what he went to the vault to get. Hades needed to know that Harry could win in a contest against Nicodemus in this context. Mab actually states it explicitly.
But Harry was lied to by Mab, the lie of omission because she never leveled with him from the beginning. She kept Molly away from him because she'd have told him the truth of what was really going on. That is what the final confrontation between Harry, Molly, Marcone and Mab was all about at the end of Skin Game.
"You could have told me from the beginning," I said to Mab.
He then goes on, on the next page.
Then Mab finally spoke, her voice sepulchral. "Do you have a point, my Knight?"
"I wanted to let you know that I knew,"I said.
He didn't say it outright, but the implication is clear, he was lied to from the beginning and as a result an innocent died, Murphy was severely crippled, and a Holy Sword was broken. It doesn't matter that Nic knew that Mab wanted to end him, the mission was a set up supposedly as far as
Harry knew to repay a favor, which put him under constraints from the beginning. Mab still lied to him. That is why Molly was there, she was backing him up, because Mab made her part of the lie by keeping her away from Harry.
That is why Mab appears to be so pissed in this scene, she had lied to her Knight and he called her on it.
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It was to repay a favour. That was why Harry could bring Murphy with him. Because NIC brought his Spawn with him when he earned that favor.
And Mab was pissed because she was working on her alliance with Marcone and Harry was probably going to endanger that. He was the elephant walking in the percelain shop of diplomacy. He did threaten to fight Marcone if he did not take the weregeld
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It was to repay a favour. That was why Harry could bring Murphy with him. Because NIC brought his Spawn with him when he earned that favor.
*That isn't the point, the point is Mab claimed it was to repay a favor, but what she really was doing was aiding Marcone to set up Nic for pay back and revenge, years in the making. She only told Harry it was to repay a favor and he had to stand by the bargain.
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*That isn't the point, the point is Mab claimed it was to repay a favor, but what she really was doing was aiding Marcone to set up Nic for pay back and revenge, years in the making. She only told Harry it was to repay a favor and he had to stand by the bargain.
She did that too. Mab was balancing all her scales but she told Harry that in the elevator. She told Harry exactly what was expected from him. She did not tell him just to help Nic, she had other expectations from him. She was pretty clear about that too. When Harry told her about the setup her answer was more like duh, of course. Why do you tell me that.
Harry and Molly were pissed of because of Mab stopping his messengers and derailing Molly.
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She did that too. Mab was balancing all her scales but she told Harry that in the elevator. She told Harry exactly what was expected from him. She did not tell him just to help Nic, she had other expectations from him. She was pretty clear about that too. When Harry told her about the setup her answer was more like duh, of course. Why do you tell me that.
Harry and Molly were pissed of because of Mab stopping his messengers and derailing Molly.
Her expectations don't count, she lied, she said she was repaying a debt and wanted Harry to help her do that. After he did that, for him to be himself.. Nothing said about it being a set up for revenge, so a lie..
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Her expectations don't count, she lied, she said she was repaying a debt and wanted Harry to help her do that.
That is literary true. She has to balance that scale. Literally. It is important for Mab to fullfill that debt. It is an important part of Harry's task.
After he did that, for him to be himself..
As if Harry did not understand what that meant between him and Nick . But there is a lot more in that discussion and it ends with:
“If you want to live, if you want your friends and family to live, I expect you to do more than survive it,” Mab said, sweeping out. “I expect you to skin them alive.”
So no doubt about what Mab wants from Harry.
Nothing said about it being a set up for revenge, so a lie..
Mab is not expected to tell Harry all her motivations especially not when Anduriel is in earshot but her motives are hardly a secret. Harry had all the information to do what he had to do. The rest is operational security. Just like Harry could not tell all to everyone.
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Mab is not expected to tell Harry all her motivations especially not when Anduriel is in earshot but her motives are hardly a secret. Harry had all the information to do what he had to do. The rest is operational security. Just like Harry could not tell all to everyone.
She still lied, and Harry and Molly called her and Marcone on it. You are talking motives, but that doesn't change the facts.
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She still lied, and Harry and Molly called her and Marcone on it. You are talking motives, but that doesn't change the facts.
Harry wanted her to know he knew but they came for Marcone. Marcone and Mab needed to know that. It also helped with protecting grey, binder and the rest and making Marcone accept the weregeld.
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Harry wanted her to know he knew but they came for Marcone. Marcone and Mab needed to know that. It also helped with protecting grey, binder and the rest and making Marcone accept the weregeld.
That too, but the fact remains, Mab lied.
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The way I see it, Mab didn't lie, so much as she told a partial truth. There were several goals to the mission:
- To repay a debt owed, balancing the loan of a Fallen Angel with the loan of a Winter Knight
- To assist Nicodemus in the retrieval of an object from Hades
- To gain revenge against Nicodemus after he openly violated Mab's Accords
Mab was honest about the first and second points, but withheld the third. At most it's a lie of omission, but she never actually voiced an untruth, so she never actively lied. And while I don't have the books handy, I'm fairly sure we're warned that while those of Fairy can't lie outright (without assistance), they are verbally tricksy and can fail to disclose all the relevant details unless compelled by a carefully-worded bargain. So Mab's omission isn't unusual, or against her Nature enough to (IMHO) be considered a lie.
Nicodemus was arrogant in his assumption that he'd planned out everything perfectly. If he'd thought to make a more complete bargain with Mab, closing any loopholes that could lead to Harry's betrayal, he might have succeeded. But Nicodemus got exactly what he asked for... up to the point where Nicodemus double-crossed Harry, breaking the deal and reaping the consequences.
Since up to that point, Mab did hold up her end, I don't see a lie. Mab was just better at predicting behavior and planning for all eventual outcomes than Nic was.
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The way I see it, Mab didn't lie, so much as she told a partial truth. There were several goals to the mission:
- To repay a debt owed, balancing the loan of a Fallen Angel with the loan of a Winter Knight
- To assist Nicodemus in the retrieval of an object from Hades
- To gain revenge against Nicodemus after he openly violated Mab's Accords
Mab was honest about the first and second points, but withheld the third. At most it's a lie of omission, but she never actually voiced an untruth, so she never actively lied. And while I don't have the books handy, I'm fairly sure we're warned that while those of Fairy can't lie outright (without assistance), they are verbally tricksy and can fail to disclose all the relevant details unless compelled by a carefully-worded bargain. So Mab's omission isn't unusual, or against her Nature enough to (IMHO) be considered a lie.
She explained more about what she wanted in the elevator. We can assume Anduriel was listening though she might have shielded the conversation.
She did not lie to Harry but really should she have revealed all her plans? nobody can expect that.
Nicodemus was arrogant in his assumption that he'd planned out everything perfectly. If he'd thought to make a more complete bargain with Mab, closing any loopholes that could lead to Harry's betrayal,
There was no loophole that lead to Harry's betrayal. The big thing is that Harry could not betray Nicodemus because that would give problems with both Mab and the knights of the cross. That is why Harry did not punch first.
He also had to give Nicodemus the grail. If he had not lied he would have gotten what he wanted.
he might have succeeded. But Nicodemus got exactly what he asked for... up to the point where Nicodemus double-crossed Harry, breaking the deal and reaping the consequences.
There was one big loophole Nicodemus could not close. He was incapable of not betraying Harry. He had to do it and he had to do it when he thought Mab would see the least, in Hades realm.
Just like Small favor Nicodemus would have won if he had not betrayed Harry.
Since up to that point, Mab did hold up her end, I don't see a lie. Mab was just better at predicting behavior and planning for all eventual outcomes than Nic was.
Predicting Nicodemus betrayal was not that difficult. Harry and Vadderung did it as well. Setting up everything so Nicodemus could only succeed if he did not betray anyone was smart.
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That too, but the fact remains, Mab lied.
Mab didn't lie, she just didn't reveal her whole agenda same as Nic.
Nic bargained for the assistance of the Winter Knight in retrieving an object from Hades vault. He made no promises and asked for none about his plans afterwards because he wanted to be free to kill Harry, whoever Harry brought to watch his back and Anna Valmont in a place where Mab would not be able to intervene. Harry did his part in aiding Nic's plan. Without him, there is no way Anna signs on to Nic's crew and they don't get past the Gate of Ice later. Harry personally gives Nic the item he states was his objective for the job.
Then we get Nic's betrayal and the battles afterwards. Harry, Michael and Anna only survive because Harry made the smart plan to preemptively hire Grey and have him be their ace in the hole. They overcame Nic's hidden agenda, bringing the favor to an end and starting a free-for-all to end the caper. The fight at Michael's was just Nic being a vengeful bad guy.
But Harry(and hence Mab) did keep faith with Nic on his stated bargain. It's just that Nic being treacherous got them so much more.
Mab and Marcone(also Namshiel as we now know) got revenge on Nic for SF.
Mab and Hades got the weapons out of the vault and into capable hands for the future.
Uriel got the preliminary redemption of Nic's squires and a new Knight. He even got Michael more protection by alerting Molly to the holes in his security.
Harry got Bonea out of his head(his bargain with Mab to start the plot) which also let him leave Demonreach and interact with the world again, a fortune in diamonds and the mixed blessing of possessing some Christianity's most powerful holy relics.
By planning for Nic's treachery, Mab was able to accomplish more than balancing her books. And she did it without breaking the letter of their agreed upon bargain.
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The whole affair is actually a good example why lying and betrayal does not always work better than speaking truth and keeping your bargains.
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She explained more about what she wanted in the elevator.
Wasn't that in the car? In the Ocean's Eleven type reveal chapter explaining "game over" and all that?
The way I see it, Mab didn't lie, so much as she told a partial truth. There were several goals to the mission:
- To repay a debt owed, balancing the loan of a Fallen Angel with the loan of a Winter Knight
- To assist Nicodemus in the retrieval of an object from Hades
- To gain revenge against Nicodemus after he openly violated Mab's Accords
Mab was honest about the first and second points, but withheld the third.
I thought she was pretty clear about the third. What she wasn't clear about was that she worked with Marcone to bait Nicodemus into the whole thing.
She certainly didn't lie about it. She never even implied that she didn't engineer the whole thing. If Mab was capable of being open and honest with Harry, he might have gotten on board without Mab having to have leveraged him at all. Not that letting Harry "I am a terrible liar" Dresden in on all those details would have necessarily been a good idea.
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Why does this pop into my brain when I look at the thread title?
Mab and Lara sitting in a tree,
k-i-s-s-i-n-g.
I have reverted to my childhood.
I just realized that Jim uses this in Battle Ground. For Toot Toot and Lacuna.
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She still lied, and Harry and Molly called her and Marcone on it. You are talking motives, but that doesn't change the facts.
Could you please show exactly how she lied? What words did she say were not true?