Injun Joe interrupted. "Wizard Schneider is a fine enchanter, and he has a reputation for skill and honesty. But he is young for such a responsibility. There are wizards present who are his senior in experience and the Art. They deserve the consideration of the Council."
"Wizard Schneider."
A small, round-cheeked man with a fringe of gauzy white down over his scalp and a round belly stretching his robes stood up and gave Ebenezar a brief nod. Then he looked up at the Merlin and said, in Latin with a heavy Germanic accent, "While I am grateful for the offer, honored Merlin, I must respectfully decline your nomination, in favor of Wizard McCoy. He will serve the Council more ably than I."
"Bite my ass, Cowl."seems to imply that Cowl has never met Harry before (and yet he already has in GP...). Klaus has already met Harry.
Kumori's hood twitched back and forth between Cowl and me. She took three steps back.
"Just as well," Cowl murmured. "I have wanted to see for myself what has the wardens so nervous about you."
You’ll see direct translations from sources like Simon and his apprentice Larisa Yevtushenko
Martha shook her head. "Simon Pietrovich. Senior Council member. Our vampire expert. He was killed less than two days ago. The whole compound in Archangel , Ebenezar. All of them. I'm sorry."
Ebenezar shook his head slowly. His voice was a pale shadow of its usual self. "I've been to his tower. It was a fortress. How did they do it? "The Wardens said that they couldn't be sure, but it looked like someone let the killers in past the defenses. They didn't get away unscathed. There were the remains of half a dozen nobles of the Red Court . Many of their warriors. But they killed Simon and the rest."
"Let them in?" Ebenezar breathed. "Treachery? But even if it was true, it would have to be someone who knew his defenses inside and out."
See what happened to all the vampires around Simon when they assaulted his compound immediately prior to the onstage events in Summer Knight.
Definitely a qualitative difference. I mean, we rate nukes in terms of "how many thousand tons of TNT is this equal to?" but let me see you try to deploy 80,000 tons of TNT as a weapon. If you could, the destruction would be the same, in theory, but the nuke has a quality all its own that makes it stand out. A death curse is the same thing. A really powerful practitioner (any member of the Council) could probably simulate a death curse with enough time and forethought, but there would be traces that an investigator could find, afterward. "Hey, why are there tire tracks worn into this road? Because someone was using it to haul 80,000 tons of TNT to the site of the explosion, and you can't do that without a LOT of trucks."
[looks at notes]
Hmmm, it looks like that quote is not as clear cut as I remember it.
It's from a podcast from 2d6 feet in a random direction (http://2d6feet.com/), #56 (from April 2010, I believe). I have a transcript for the relevant parts (5-7 minute mark), the rest of the hour is not really about the DF. Serack -- I don't know if you have this down already, so you may want to add it.
Regular font is Fred, bold face is the interviewers. Fred is talking about how much input Jim had for the new material.QuoteSo, we got a few tidbits from him, we will be getting to invent details; far more detail than we invented for the core books. Um in a number of cases, but we'll also be drawing from "Hey Jim give us a few bullet points about a particular location". You know, if we want the people to work for the, the player characters stand in the Nevernever chapter to work for the Gatekeeepr in some capacity, what do we need to know about that, and what came out of that was Jim telling me about where the Gatekeepers demesne is. Where his domain is, where his private citadel is ensconced somewhere in the Nevernever, and the route to it, and I will reveal that here involves walking across the surface of the moon.
Nice, I mean clearly some sort of magical protection...
So you've got that sort of thing in there, but we've also got things like where Simon Pietrovich, Justin Dumorne's mentor, and the Senior Council member that was a... um... removed from power, shall we say in book four, he clearly lived somewhere in Russia, likely during the Russian Revolution, so we, how much control do we have over him. {quoting Jim} "Fair amount, I don't really have a lot in mind for him, so obviously I'll want to look at it, what your ideas are, but you can do, you can mess around with that". So we're like "OK, we're going to make him a friend of the Czar, as the Russian revolution is breaking out and have that, you know, tie his hands a little bit and push some things into a direction the is going to be a problem".
That's pretty cool. What a terrible terrible set of constraints you have for a licensed product.
So on the on hand you've got Jim's "I don't really have a lot in mind", but on the other, you've got Fred seemingly avoiding declaring that Simon is dead.
Cowl = Simon is probably the single most sane, rational, and well-supported theory I've seen on these boards. Thanks for laying out the evidence.
Duck's Molly=Mab theory definitely picked up a lot of traction though.
Duck's Molly=Mab theory definitely picked up a lot of traction though.
"Bite my ass, Cowl."
Kumori's hood twitched back and forth between Cowl and me. She took three steps back.
"Just as well," Cowl murmured. "I have wanted to see for myself what has the wardens so nervous about you."
One more interesting quote on Cowl if you wanted to add it. We get that Cowl has heard of Dresden's ability, but never seen it firsthand.
DB Ch.8
Molly=Mab was fascinating, and came out very close to the truth, but unfortunately it's wrong as Titania is Mab's sister, and Titania is not Molly's sister.
He sends the Outsider influenced Ghouls into the Wraith Deeps in White Night.
Yeah, which is a shame. In hindsight, I think Ms Duck saw some of the signs, but jumped to a conclusion that seemed a bit outrageous, to me. Had she not thrown in the time travel angle & just concentrated on the fact that Molly was being prepared for Winter, it might have seen more traction & not have been discounted out of hand.
I think you're right. Time travel is such a powerful tool that everything becomes possible (Harry=Gatekeeper=Cowl=Merlin=Odin=Santa=Erkling=Titania=Mother Summer. Obviously). We should be very cautious before using it without explicit proof of actual time travel. That's why I don't really buy the Time Travelling Harry fixed LC.
Yeah, there's WAY too much of the somebody equal somebody else that goes on around here. To the point, where you really have a hard time not to dimiss all of it.
I can't say I'm entirely faultless, since I'm starting to lean towards the notion that Harry = Merlin the original, but it isn't a firm belief either.
Nice summary!
- Another objection to the Simon=Cowl theory is an interview with Fred where he says that Jim let him have free rein in writing up Simon in the paranet files. If Simon still has a part to play, Jim would need to retcon or explicitly approve everything Fred puts into the books (e.g. Kumori's real name) in case they should appear in the novels. Furthermore, I don't see Jim letting such a reveal to come out outside of the novels -- aren't the paranet files supposed to be published soon? Mind you, I'm not saying this disproves anything, merely that it's a point against the theory.
we know that Cowl is a human SC-level wizard, so the list of suspect is very short:
- Langtry
- Rashid
- Eb
- Lafortier
- Mai
- Martha
- LTW
- Simon Petrovich
- Klaus Schneider (the Toymaker)
During Dead Beat the SC was fighting the Reds. So we have two possibilities: Simon or Klaus.
You perople are underestimating the WC. Remember Ebaneezer was way down the line, and that there were loads of different names, every1 absent before they got down in the list down to him when he entered the SC. So there are loads of wizards of SC level out there that simply haven't entered SC due politics.
(Or am I completely wrong here?)
An offensive action like a full assault from the Senior Council, the seven oldest and strongest wizards on the planet, had been long overdue.
Peabody reached under his table and came out with a bulging satchel. He muttered something to himself and rubbed some ink onto his nose with one finger, then he opened the satchel, which held what looked like a couple of reams of parchment. His eyes glazed over slightly, and he reached into the papers seemingly at random. He drew out a single page, put it on the desk before him, nodded in satisfaction, then read in a reedy voice, "Wizard Montjoy."
"Research trip in the Yucatán," Martha Liberty said.
Peabody nodded. "Wizard Gomez."
"Still sleeping off that potion," provided a grey-cloaked Warden standing by the wall.
Peabody nodded. "Wizard Luciozzi."
"Sabbatical," said the blue-bearded and tattooed wizard behind me. Ebenezar frowned, and one of his cheeks twitched in a nervous tic.
It went on like that for close to a quarter hour. Some of the more interesting reasons for absence included "He got real married," "Living under the polar ice cap," and "Pyramid sitting," whatever that was.
Peabody finally read, with a glance up at the Merlin, "Wizard McCoy." Ebenezar grunted and stood. Peabody read another half-dozen names before stating, "Wizard Schneider."
- In-universe: the nomination to SC is in fact the result of a political struggle behind the scenes, and the seniority list thing is just for show. So there may be a hundred wizards older than McCoy, but none of them had the magical/political power to challenge him for the seat.
Thanks for the list Elegast. It reminded me a set of thoughts I had about Lucciozzi before. 1) adding the suffix -zzi to a last name sometimes occurred in mediterrean countries to indicate a specifc region from which the person hailed. Without it, we have Luccio. 2) Luccio has family to who she mentions she watches over. 3) Lucciozzi is the only name Eb has a visible reaction to and we never findout why. Is it possible Cowl is a wizard we've never even learned anything about yet? Whether thats true or not, I think that Eb inadvertently f'd up a plan to get a BC/nemesis meber on the SC here (which then gets reworked into the plan killing LaFortier). So I think one of the people on the list ahead of him is Cowl and/or a high level BC/nemesis member. Edit: I know this is thin, its not a theory, but more of a collection of thoughts that may help in brainstorming.
Holy crap, the boss herself. Anastasia Luccio was one of the next in line for a seat on the Senior Council, and was the commander of the Wardens. She was one tough old bird, and she was the field commander of the Council's forces in the war with the Red Court.
Is it possible Cowl is a wizard we've never even learned anything about yet?
"Harry... *inhale* I am your father.."
Yeah, there's WAY too much of the somebody equal somebody else that goes on around here. To the point, where you really have a hard time not to dimiss all of it.
I can't say I'm entirely faultless, since I'm starting to lean towards the notion that Harry = Merlin the original, but it isn't a firm belief either.
Yeah, which is a shame. In hindsight, I think Ms Duck saw some of the signs, but jumped to a conclusion that seemed a bit outrageous, to me. Had she not thrown in the time travel angle & just concentrated on the fact that Molly was being prepared for Winter, it might have seen more traction & not have been discounted out of hand.
If Mab were Molly, she'd at least have gotten the Princess Bride quote.
If anything, I'm leaning more toward Cowl being alternate universe Harry. I've hated that theory for a long while, but I find it more practical than it being Simon.
That being said, I'm still holding out that its Cristos, an unknown wizard, a Fomor, or something else.
Wouldn't Cowl then have a Russian accent? And why would a former SC member be trying to summon Darkhallow and summon Outsiders/ghouls in WN?
Im placing a small bet on the lovecraft connection- Cowl is a deep one/ formor. that being said, they can pass for human, with some frog like features. If Simon was Cowl, id think Jim would have had Eb mutter about how much he misses his old bug eyed friend.
Im still putting a bet on wizard Lucciozi, who caused Eb to flinch in SK.
A fomor?
How did he summon an Outsider? (no proof but probable)hes of mortal blood
How did he know about Bob?saw him in GP
Why is a fan of Goethe?why not?
Why does he uses 'Dorosh' as keyword for his magic?
Who was the traitor in Archangel?the clerk
Why Harry says he's human?deep ones can pass for human
Why Lea accepted a gift from an enemy?see above
That would mean a least a hundred wizards before McCoy on the seniority list.
That's simply not possible, as I cannot see how no one among those one hundred would accept a position as prestigious and powerful as SC member.
Cowl is Harry Dresden.
As Simon Cowl? 1 - Very obvious. 2 - Harry does not know Simon. Harry believes that Simon is dead. He (Simon) may not appear in the Council. Why would he need to disguise his voice then? Or even hide from everyone? 3 - The Cowl height is never mentioned (nor Kumori) 4 - Does anyone remember the prostitute in DB, that it was strange looking at Harry. As if she had seen a version minutes before. 5 - Cowl can open paths in Nevernever. As Harry, now. 6 - The magic of Cowl is tarnished. As the magic of Harry.
Cowl is Harry from the future to something we'll find out later.
One thing that jumps to mind is that Cowl uses gloves. Might be that his hands have scars like his arms do and he is using gloves to cover them up. (He revealed the scars in his arms only when he was already assured of his ascension to godhood)
Cowl straightened slowly. He'd gotten back to the very rear of the car's impact area somehow, and he must have been able to shield himself from the partial impact. As he straightened he wavered, then braced himself against a streetlight with one black-gloved hand.
Cowl was silent for a long moment in the rain. Drops fell off the end of my pistol in his gloved hand. Then he said, his voice pensive, "I do not perceive myself to be mad. But if I were truly mad, would I be able to tell?"
Cowl set the skull aside on the grass, then raised his hands above his head and let the sleeves fall back from his long, weathered arms covered in old scars. He began a chant in a low voice, steady and strong.
So I was panting and sitting flat on my ass when the air in front of me wavered, and a dark, hooded figure stepped forward from out of nowhere, one hand extended, some sort of fine mesh that covered her outstretched palm flickering with ugly purple light.
"Be very still, Dresden," Kumori said, her voice soft. "If you try to move, I'll kill you."
Cowl = Simon is probably the single most sane, rational, and well-supported theory I've seen on these boards. Thanks for laying out the evidence.jim isn't always sane an rational though. i admit you covered all the bases here, kudos btw. somehow though i still find i can't consign myself to this... besides this would make his name simon cowl! roflmao! unless jim is an avid american idol fan i just can't except that. i'd rather it be bizarro harry an molly.
Here's some relevant quotes:
And here's this, because we're talking gloves:
---
On another note, why Goethe? Two things come to mind: Goethe penned Der Erlkönig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Erlk%C3%B6nig) as well as a celebrated version of Faust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faust#Goethe.27s_Faust). I've always thought that this was a hint that Cowl made a Faustian bargain. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deal_with_the_Devil)
That's one of my pet theories, but I've never explicitly stated it:
I believe Cowl is based on Darth Vader. :)
We know that Jim is a HUGE SW fan, that he likes to take ideas from other artists, and Vader is probably the best idea of the whole SW universe.
Vader-Cowl:
- dress in black, and wear black gloves
- do not show their faces
- have sustained heavy injuries, including burns
- have an artificial voice
- are badass/nearly unkillable (surviving Darkhallow/ explosion of first Death Star)
- have a secret identity
So I like your idea that Goethe is reference to Faust, as I believe that Cowl, like Vader is good guy who made a pact with the Bad Guy.
Possible, but quite unlikely. Jim himself has said he does his best to foreshadow things, and having Cowl is TAN DAN TAAA *insert name* moment is one of those things that seem likely to happen.Neither does Petrovich, in that sense. To reiterate something I've said before: It tells us the Council was heavily infiltrated, but we knew that; it tells us there's sinisterness in Harry's line of mentorship, but we knew that too, twice over; it implies that whatever agenda is going on with Harry is a bit bigger than just DuMorne's plans, but we knew that too, the only thing Petrovich would add is to potenitally push the time frame back a little.
Having "Cowl removed his hood and he was... generic WC member number 199 i'd seen once in a meeting but had never even mentioned on page" just doesn't cut it.
A fomor?Is "Dorosh" a Russian word? If so, it argues against Petrovch, not for, because wizards have to use words not from their own language. (Googling it, I've found Russian and Hebrew connections for it).
How did he summon an Outsider? (no proof but probable)
How did he know about Bob?
Why is a fan of Goethe?
Why does he uses 'Dorosh' as keyword for his magic?
Who was the traitor in Archangel?
Why Harry says he's human?
Why Lea accepted a gift from an enemy?
Neither does Petrovich, in that sense. To reiterate something I've said before: It tells us the Council was heavily infiltrated, but we knew that; it tells us there's sinisterness in Harry's line of mentorship, but we knew that too, twice over; it implies that whatever agenda is going on with Harry is a bit bigger than just DuMorne's plans, but we knew that too, the only thing Petrovich would add is to potenitally push the time frame back a little.
If the revelation of Cowl's identity is to be a big deal, then I can't see it just filling in the blanks of the past, not being something with implications for the future.
My own theory inasmuch as I have one, is that Cowl is a previous user/victim/ally of a force with which Harry will have to contend, or of which he will have to make use. A former holder of the Blackstaff, for example, illustrating the risk that comes from it; or another Starborn, illustrating the price of failure or success for Harry. Or has made a deal with some being Harry will have to make a deal with.
I prefer arguments that can be made in setting, though, and the big one of those for me is that unless Cowl is close to a solo operator, which does not seem to be the case, a place on the Senior Council is too valuable an asset for his faction to give up.
Is "Dorosh" a Russian word? If so, it argues against Petrovch, not for, because wizards have to use words not from their own language. (Googling it, I've found Russian and Hebrew connections for it).
The others, in order:
Fomor are like fae, yes? In which case, they can produce scions who would presumably face a Choice like changelings do. Cowl is infected, which we know allows action against a being's nature - by extension, a changeling ought to be able to choose "both" or "both, but one at a time." That would allow him to do human-only stuff, or seem human.
Can't answer about Bob, but Petrovich would only know if Justin told him - and that is only likely if Petrovich was running Justin, in which case how likely is it that Petrovich would not have taken Bob years ago?
Why not a fan of Goethe? Do we know Petrovich was a fan of Goethe?
Could still be Petrovich. Petrovich=Cowl and Petrovich=bad guy on the Black Council or whatever it really is are not synomymous assertions. Otherwise, could be anyone.
If Cowl had chosen human, Lea might not be able to peg him as a Fomor-scion.
I will say, though, that your OP is the only post I've seen arguing for Petrovich=Cowl that makes it sound even halfway plausible to me.
as I believe that Cowl, like Vader is good guy who made a pact with the Bad Guy.
yea jims a total SW geek, nothing wrong with that.. but it practically became modern mythology. how can you create an epic without referencing the classics?
really though nothing on my 'simon cowl' joke? not even lol?
Sorry, that joke has been floating around the bb for years. It was funny the first time.darn an i thought i was being original
seriously though, has anyone considered rashid? he's a frickin giant just like harry.
I like the idea of this. It'd be a massive blow to several on the SC if it turned out to be Simon, leaving Harry to deal with him. I think it'd be really cool to see Eb, LTW and Martha Liberty seize up because they realise their old friend had been playing them, with Harry wondering how he's going to take on someone who survived being clocked in the head during the Darkhallow ritual.yea i thought this too. but idk harry aint observant enough to gatekeep.
On the note of various X=Y theories, are there any threads for Harry = Future Gatekeeper (Taking over once Rashid packs it in). It seems as if he's being groomed for the roll.
i really doubt Simon = Cowl. it would be such a let down if it was so easy.
as to him saying he hates Kemmler. it doesn't matter because if he was an evil apprentice of a an evil master mind it goes w/ the evil hat. it usually is a love / hate relationship. he just didn't want to be associated w/ Kemmler because he didn't like how he carried out his plans? his teaching methods? whatever. he does however associate w/ CT and Grevane. he is planning with them while preparing to fight them for the Darkhallow. and they know him. fits with him being an apprentice of Kemmler while hating the guy.
as to being a SC level wizard. just because he is that powerful does not mean he is in the SC. CT and Grevane are considered just as powerful as Cowl. so does that make them SC members?
so what Simon has a female apprentice so does Harry. it has no weight to the theory.
Do we know that Cowl was a disciple of Kemmler. Harry calls all 3 of the necromancers "kemmlerites" but we only get explicit confirmation for Grevane (in Dead Beat) and Corpsetaker (in Ghost Story)Cowl also implies that he usually had to do the hard work instead of Corpsetaker or Grevane when he released the Erlking from Harry's trap.
Grevane and Corpsetaker are definately not SC level. We have multiple instances of Harry remarking on how powerfull Cowl is and how he would have squished Harry if not for luck but we get no such remarks for the other two necromancers.
any direct evidence against rashid being cowl? not supposed actual? the gatekeeper is busy alot which would explain why cowl is hardly ever around, if rashid is cowl then i say maggie is kimori. just a guess. is there any prof directly against cowl rashid though? being in two places at once, that sorta thing? (rashid could probably manage that of course)
Height discrepancies for one. Rashid is taller than Harry after all and Cowl isn't described as being taller than Harry or even the same height IIRC.he's pretty tall, it doesn't give a reference to harrys height though IIRC
he's pretty tall, it doesn't give a reference to harrys height though IIRCrashid is tall then Harry cowl shorter we know from woj tha Harry rates people tall the him, shoter then him and a lot shorter and harry being 6 6 or 6 8? not many people are taller then him kinda easy if cow=rashid there are only 30 40 wizards who could take him...
rashid is tall then Harry cowl shorter we know from woj tha Harry rates people tall the him, shoter then him and a lot shorter and harry being 6 6 or 6 8? not many people are taller then him kinda easy if cow=rashid there are only 30 40 wizards who could take him...i mean a comparison eg harry is taller or shorter. iirc rashid is taller.
any direct evidence against rashid being cowl? not supposed actual? the gatekeeper is busy alot which would explain why cowl is hardly ever around, if rashid is cowl then i say maggie is kimori. just a guess. is there any prof directly against cowl rashid though? being in two places at once, that sorta thing? (rashid could probably manage that of course)
He was busy with the rest of the senior council against the Red Court, does that count?got any direct quotes? he usually doesn't do most council functions...
And IIRC we have WoJ that Margaret's not coming back.
got any direct quotes? he usually doesn't do most council functions...
Luccio nodded. "A major assault. Madrid, Sao Paolo, Acapulco, Athens. We struck at enemy strongholds there to acquire intelligence to the whereabouts of the prisoners. Our people were being held in Belize." She waved a hand vaguely at Morgan.
"Our intelligence indicated the presence of the highest-ranking members of the Red Court, including the Red King himself. The Merlin and the rest of the Senior Council took the field with us," Morgan said quietly.
huh... then why the heck do people think its simon? :o cristo is much better choice? or is my timeline fuddled? intellectus sucks... shoulda asked for x-ray vision 8)
any direct evidence against rashid being cowl? not supposed actual? the gatekeeper is busy alot which would explain why cowl is hardly ever around, if rashid is cowl then i say maggie is kimori. just a guess. is there any prof directly against cowl rashid though? being in two places at once, that sorta thing? (rashid could probably manage that of course)If Rashid was Cowl there was no need for Cowl. Rashid would let the hordes in and we would be screwed.
If Rashid was Cowl there was no need for Cowl. Rashid would let the hordes in and we would be screwed.thats not really cowls agenda... who thinks its mab or MS? he's def human...
The same for Cowl = Mab, Cowl = Mother Summer, .......
If Rashid was Cowl there was no need for Cowl. Rashid would let the hordes in and we would be screwed.
The same for Cowl = Mab, Cowl = Mother Summer, .......
thats not really cowls agenda... who thinks its mab or MS? he's def human...I think cowl is human too (and not Fomor) but that is not the point.
I think cowl is human too (and not Fomor) but that is not the point.not really, he we don't really know what he really wants, besides godhood. he could be the antihero type. not a nice guy but not ready to let the world burn.
The point is that cowl can not be somebody who is already in a position of power big enough to mess everything up forever. The whole cowl persona would be useless.
not really, he we don't really know what he really wants, besides godhood. he could be the antihero type. not a nice guy but not ready to let the world burn.If I had to point one person in the dresdenfiles to have an infection it would be cowl. The white court putch was a dead giveaway. Cowl wants what nemesis wants.
not really, he we don't really know what he really wants, besides godhood. he could be the antihero type. not a nice guy but not ready to let the world burn.
If I had to point one person in the dresdenfiles to have an infection it would be cowl. The white court putch was a dead giveaway. Cowl wants what nemesis wants.he does ponder this to dresden so he can't be compromised outright.
he does ponder this to dresden so he can't be compromised outright.If you believe him but that does not matter much for the argument.
why wouldn't you believe him? he's evil, plenty of evil without nemesis. don't make him stupidWe know Cowl is not stupid.
Cowl also implies that he usually had to do the hard work instead of Corpsetaker or Grevane when he released the Erlking from Harry's trap.
I wouldn't be so sure that Grevane and Corpsetaker weren't SC level. They were stronger than Harry one-on-one, and it didn't seem that they were pulling out all the stops. Do we have a better way to measure the difference between Harry's strength and a low-end SC member's strength?
We know Cowl is not stupid.
I would not believe everything Cowl says. He has a cover to maintain. The white court coup was clearly an attempt to place an infected vittorio as the head of the white court. Lash said he was possessed by an outsider. Judging him by what he does and not by what he said I say outsider infected.
I don't see why Cowl can't be infected and be trying to do what he thinks is good at the same time. We saw that Auora was infected and she clearly thought she was doing good. Sure Cowl isn't as insane as her but we've seen that their are varying degrees of infection (cat sith was completely infected for example).He might think he is doing the good thing if that makes him easier to manage by the outsiders but that does not matter for what he does. For what makes him act.
How does him doing all the hard work make him a kemmlerite? He could simply be a normal wizard using necromancy.Well, if Cowl is complaining about always doing the hard work, he's also implying some level of cooperation with the other Kemmlerites. Whether or not Cowl was lying is debatable, but you would have to explain why Cowl felt the urge to lie. My copy of DB is not with me at the moment, but doesn't Cowl say that they "play nice" but are always looking to stab each other in the back to be Kemmler's favorite?
I'm really really sure Corpsetaker isn't SC level. Heck, in GS MOLLY was able to hold her off for a pretty significant amount of time. Remember that mind magic is Corpsetakers speciality and we know that SC wizards are super awesome in their areas of speciality (Eb is a direct combat specialist and he was able to cause a freakin earthquake. The Merlin is a ward specialist and he was able to create a ward that held of the ENTIRE Red Court (If I'm remembering correctly) ). Molly should have been squished in an instant.
We saw that Grevane was charging into battle against Corpsetaker (and she against him) so they clearly thought they could beat each other.
id put grevane and corpsteaker at SC level, if not merlin or eb level. both, in there own ways, kicked major arse.none of them had the knowledge in the word though. presumably how to add power by eating shades an what not.
Kemmler was arguably the strongets wizard of the last millenia. HIs 'council members' were likely to match.
none of them had the knowledge in the word though. presumably how to add power by eating shades an what not.
im not sure grevane and co were the strongest members of Kemmler's group.. more like the ones who survived.eh? you'd think survival of the fittest?
;)
eh? you'd think survival of the fittest?
its war.
survival of the luckiest.
that, and i suspect the SC went after the ehaviest targets in person and let the wardens do the lesser clean up..easier to get away from.
Ducky dear, if you apply this logic to the Kemmlerites (with which I am entirely in agreement), would you not apply it to the Black Court also ?ohhh dissed on your theory...
Ducky dear, if you apply this logic to the Kemmlerites (with which I am entirely in agreement), would you not apply it to the Black Court also ?
the difference is the black court are extra extra crispy immortal... even a nomral black court master (by the lore) can only be killed at their own grave at dawn... any other damage is simply healed the next night at dusk when they reform.
Wasn't one-ear a "Master Vampire"? Harry burns off his ear in the first encounter, and he doesn't seem to have grown it back by the next night.
I don't think so; the only one I am sure was referred to as a master is whatshername from the Thomas' birthday short story, and I think probably Mavra.
The conversation with Lara seemed to imply he was going to turn her to a BC. Isn't that enough to be considered?
The conversation with Lara seemed to imply he was going to turn her to a BC. Isn't that enough to be considered?No... I don't think they need to be a master to turn. I thought they were the most virulent form - infecting on a gigantic scale I think is the way it was put? I forget the quote.. books many miles away at home !
Now Mavra is either very very good with veils.. or she can body jump... or she thingks napalm comined with explosives is a 'minor nuisance' not worth bothering about.
No... I don't think they need to be a master to turn. I thought they were the most virulent form - infecting on a gigantic scale I think is the way it was put? I forget the quote.. books many miles away at home !
I don't read it that way; when he says she'll still be pretty for a while, I thought that worked as "strong White Court vampires can survive hanging in the larder feeding Black Court vampires for quite some time, which will be horribly painful, before dying."
"Mine," One-ear repeated. It drew Lara's hair back away from her throat. The other vampire took her hands and pinned them against the wall above her head.
One-ear touched its tongue to Lara's mouth and shivered. "I'll show you what real vampires are like. You'll see things differently soon. And you'll be lovely, still. For a little while. I'll enjoy that."
I don't read it that way; when he says she'll still be pretty for a while, I thought that worked as "strong White Court vampires can survive hanging in the larder feeding Black Court vampires for quite some time, which will be horribly painful, before dying."
That's not proof, but I understood that he intended to turn her into a black court vampire.
or you dont have to be a master to turn things.
and wasnt oen eye channeling his master, mavra?
No, "Sock Puppet" was a different entity than "One eye" in that scene.
Well, if Cowl is complaining about always doing the hard work, he's also implying some level of cooperation with the other Kemmlerites. Whether or not Cowl was lying is debatable, but you would have to explain why Cowl felt the urge to lie. My copy of DB is not with me at the moment, but doesn't Cowl say that they "play nice" but are always looking to stab each other in the back to be Kemmler's favorite?
Corpsetaker was also confident in taking on (older & scarier) Luccio and the other wardens. Besides, Molly wasn't Corpsetaker's first opponent that night. She had already stalled Harry with shields, taken over Butters, and put the rest of the crew to sleep. A few more moments and Corpsetaker would have steamrolled over Molly too.
At the very least, Corpsetaker and Grevane are at Morgan's level, and in TC Harry said that Eb (the combat specialist) was one of the few that had a good chance of bringing Morgan in.
Quote from Dead Beat:
Cowl's fingers formed into a rigid claw and he snarled a word I couldn't quite hear, slashing at the air.
There was a surge of power, darker this time, somehow more nebulous. The air around them blurred, there was the sudden scent of mildew and lightless waters, a sighing sound, and as quickly as that, they were simply gone.
"Right," I said. "You're the correct madman for the job."
Cowl was silent for a long moment in the rain. Drops fell off the end of my pistol in his gloved hand. Then he said, his voice pensive, "I do not perceive myself to be mad. But if I were truly mad, would I be able to tell?"
Welp, considering what we know about Nemesis now, I'd say there's a huge possibility that Cowl is infected. In fact, the whole discovery just makes it more likely that Cowl is Simon; explains how someone so trusted would go turn coat and nuke Archangel the way he did. Have we ever gotten a WoJ on what kind of magic Simon uses? (summon: Serack!)
This quote from Dead Beat makes a real strong argument for Simon = Cowl:
And I think that Cowl took a power-up/mantle from the Fomor--would explain the voice.
Or Cowl/Simon was necromancered back by Kumori (after Archangel) and that explains his voice and his scars.
Welp, considering what we know about Nemesis now, I'd say there's a huge possibility that Cowl is infected. In fact, the whole discovery just makes it more likely that Cowl is Simon; explains how someone so trusted would go turn coat and nuke Archangel the way he did. Have we ever gotten a WoJ on what kind of magic Simon uses? (summon: Serack!)
This quote from Dead Beat makes a real strong argument for Simon = Cowl:
And I think that Cowl took a power-up/mantle from the Fomor--would explain the voice.
Or Cowl/Simon was necromancered back by Kumori (after Archangel) and that explains his voice and his scars.
Or Cowl/Simon was necromancered back by Kumori (after Archangel) and that explains his voice and his scars.
So what happens if you cast a Death Curse while you are under the effect of a "ward off death" spell?
So what happens if you cast a Death Curse while you are under the effect of a "ward off death" spell?
Have we seen any examples of "ward of death" spells? Do they even exist? If they exist than why don't more people use them instead of relying on shields and enchanted items for protection?
After thinking about it a bit I think that he might be referencing what Kumori did to ward off the death of Marcone's goon long enough for the paramedics to arrive.
^yup^
I'm also thinking about those uber-ghouls in the Deeps. Sure, they had super healing power, but drops of blood coming together and reforming is a little much. Instead, what if there was a "ward off death" spell cast on them, keeping them alive until their natural healing powers could kick in.
Anything is possible but the way that the scene is written it doesn't seem so odd that they are like sabretooth tigers, direwolves, giant short-faced bears or malks - ancient and mythologically powerful versions of modern killers.
Regular ghouls have incredible healing powers and the Red King basically did something similar when Harry amputated his arm. So none of the abilities displayed by the super ghouls is really unprecedented - the strength of their powers is just amplified.
I figured it was a call out of sorts to the classic troll, which can only be killed by fire. everythign else heals in minutes :)
Yeah, the whole "proto-creature from the dawn of time and darkest depths of human memory" vibe really suited the super ghouls.
Since multiple sources indicate that there is an almost endless amount of odd places/creatures in the Nevernever and since we mostly only see those that are close to the mortal world (and only a small portion of those even) I never really had any reason to look any deeper into the origins of the super ghouls.
I do really hope that we find out how in the hell Cowl managed contact and control such ancient powerful creatures though. Eb pulling the Kenku out of his arse is the only other example we have of wizards summoning or leading really exotic and cool beings from the Nevernever.
haven't seen this in any threads yet so i was wondering if anyone made the connection between cowl having ghouls at his beck and call and the ghouls showing at luccio's boot camp? which iirc was known by a very limited number of people, none of which was a dead wizard named simon :P
If Simon were Cowl, why would he not have access to information via Peabody ?peabody wasn't on that list...
peabody wasn't on that list...
Not officially, no, but it's made clear in TC that Peabody has had access to all this sort of paperwork and nobody's ever thought to mention it. They seem to think of him as barely more than a photocopier and filing system.it wasn't on the books, generally you don't write down super secret locations an what not. cause other people can steal the paper... what it points to is cowl being inside the WC and probably who showed with an army of spiders, standing in a way and unleashing an army seems to be part of his M.O.
See what happened to all the vampires around Simon when they assaulted his compound immediately prior to the onstage events in Summer Knight.
Regarding the WOJ which talks about Simon and a death curse:
Note that Jim doesn't actually state that Simon cast this death curse nor that he died. He just specifically pointed to all the vampires dying around him. Another way to look at this quote considering we know that Cowl has survived death curses before is that this particular death curse wasn't cast by Simon but at him and all the vampires that happened to be around him. He managed to defend against the curse but vampires were obliterated. This chain of logic could work if one of the wizards of Archangel recognised Simon as the traitor who let the Red's bypass the formidable wards and decided to try and take him down as a last ditched effort.
We also know that Simon had a female apprentice which fits really well as being Kumori.
I don't recall anything about Simon having a female apprentice?
We also know that Morgan had some sort of relationsip/connection to her (though I dont remember where I learned this) which helps explain some of his extreme animosity to Harry in SK.
Actually, all we know is that someone dear to him died at Archangel. We think it's Larisa though.
Also, just afterward Fred mentions that Jim said he didn't have a whole lot down on Simon Pietrovich.
I hear that a lot. Could anyone point me to the source and/or give me the exact wording?
I hear that a lot. Could anyone point me to the source and/or give me the exact wording?
So, we got a few tidbits from him, we will be getting to invent details; far more detail than we invented for the core books. Um in a number of cases, but we'll also be drawing from "Hey Jim give us a few bullet points about a particular location". You know, if we want the people to work for the, the player characters stand in the Nevernever chapter to work for the Gatekeeepr in some capacity, what do we need to know about that, and what came out of that was Jim telling me about where the Gatekeepers demesne is. Where his domain is, where his private citadel is ensconced somewhere in the Nevernever, and the route to it, and I will reveal that here involves walking across the surface of the moon.
Nice, I mean clearly some sort of magical protection...
So you've got that sort of thing in there, but we've also got things like where Simon Pietrovich, Justin Dumorne's mentor, and the Senior Council member that was a... um... removed from power, shall we say in book four, he clearly lived somewhere in Russia, likely during the Russian Revolution, so we, how much control do we have over him. {quoting Jim} "Fair amount, I don't really have a lot in mind for him, so obviously I'll want to look at it, what your ideas are, but you can do, you can mess around with that". So we're like "OK, we're going to make him a friend of the Czar, as the Russian revolution is breaking out and have that, you know, tie his hands a little bit and push some things into a direction the is going to be a problem".
That's pretty cool. What a terrible terrible set of constraints you have for a licensed product.
[looks at notes]
Hmmm, it looks like that quote is not as clear cut as I remember it.
It's from a podcast from 2d6 feet in a random direction (http://2d6feet.com/), #56 (from April 2010, I believe). I have a transcript for the relevant parts (5-7 minute mark), the rest of the hour is not really about the DF. Serack -- I don't know if you have this down already, so you may want to add it.
Regular font is Fred, bold face is the interviewers. Fred is talking about how much input Jim had for the new material.
So on the on hand you've got Jim's "I don't really have a lot in mind", but on the other, you've got Fred seemingly avoiding declaring that Simon is dead.
[looks at notes]
Hmmm, it looks like that quote is not as clear cut as I remember it.
It's from a podcast from 2d6 feet in a random direction (http://2d6feet.com/), #56 (from April 2010, I believe). I have a transcript for the relevant parts (5-7 minute mark), the rest of the hour is not really about the DF. Serack -- I don't know if you have this down already, so you may want to add it.
Regular font is Fred, bold face is the interviewers. Fred is talking about how much input Jim had for the new material.
So on the on hand you've got Jim's "I don't really have a lot in mind", but on the other, you've got Fred seemingly avoiding declaring that Simon is dead.
[looks at notes]
Hmmm, it looks like that quote is not as clear cut as I remember it.
It's from a podcast from 2d6 feet in a random direction (http://2d6feet.com/), #56 (from April 2010, I believe). I have a transcript for the relevant parts (5-7 minute mark), the rest of the hour is not really about the DF. Serack -- I don't know if you have this down already, so you may want to add it.
Regular font is Fred, bold face is the interviewers. Fred is talking about how much input Jim had for the new material.
So on the on hand you've got Jim's "I don't really have a lot in mind", but on the other, you've got Fred seemingly avoiding declaring that Simon is dead.
You say "and yet he already has in GP...)." but I don't recall him ever actually meeting Harry at the party. He was present there yes but I don't recall him seeing any of Harry's abilities.
Unless he got out of there really quickly he probably saw Harry vs the vamps (assuming you're talking about Cowl seeing Harry in action).
I am.
My memory is foggy. What did Harry do to the vamps during the fight?
Harry tossed out what was probably his coolest fire spell EVER.
It wouldn't surprise me if it was a death curse powered spell of some sort (since his heart stopped and Michael had to revive him).
It was like a living fire spell that would jump from one vamp to another and engulf them. Sort of like a fire snake (constrictor) spell or something. It was unlike anything that he has used since in many ways.
As much as I like the Simon = Cowl theory...
My most recent re-read of the series has me leaning much more strongly towards the 'Cowl is some sort of Fomor knight or Fomor ally' theory.
Probably the most important factor is that Cowl's various (confusing) motivations are more easily explained if they are taken as part of an overall Fomor strategy.
Both the Fomor and the Outsiders would need to destroy the existing supernatural powers (especially the Sidhe). The same alliance(s) that fought the Black Court could reasonably be expected to oppose the return to power of the Fomor and thus would be obvious targets for the Fomor (and the Outsiders benefit from EVERYONE getting weaker).
A re-read of Dead Beat while specifically thinking about a Cowl = Simon theory made that theory more difficult to swallow as well.
It wouldn't surprise me if it was a death curse powered spell of some sort (since his heart stopped and Michael had to revive him).
Agree. Especially since I believe I was the first one to bring up the possibility. :P I used it to help strengthen the Simon is Cowl argument; because if what Harry used was a Death Curse, it shows that a wizard can use a Death Curse and survive it. So Simon could have used a Death Curse and still survived.
And left Archangel to take up a new identity...? ;D
Harry tossed out what was probably his coolest fire spell EVER.That was because it was a spell Kravos had. I assume you're talking about when Susan had to revive him after he used his ghost to double team the nightmare Kravos?
It wouldn't surprise me if it was a death curse powered spell of some sort (since his heart stopped and Michael had to revive him).
It was like a living fire spell that would jump from one vamp to another and engulf them. Sort of like a fire snake (constrictor) spell or something. It was unlike anything that he has used since in many ways.
That was because it was a spell Kravos had. I assume you're talking about when Susan had to revive him after he used his ghost to double team the nightmare Kravos?
No, he's talking about the fire spell Harry uses in the middle of the book - right at the end of the masquerade. Harry's heart stops and Michael revives him.Ah, now I see.
Ah, now I see.
I still don't think it's that easy to cast and survive a death curse, but I could see the argument. I'd look more for the rage of Harry, plus the effects of the vampire venom causing his heart to give out on him after such an exertion than a proper death cursing, but the principle is very similar, I'm sure.
If I had to go on record I would say that it wasn't a full death curse.
More like a "used so much magic that it killed him" curse rather than a formal death curse. This could well be another one of those "shades of grey" issues that mortals have trouble with (death, evil, free will, souls, etc.).
Rather than putting ALL of his spirit (or whatever) into the curse like he would a death curse my guess is that he just put some of his spirit into it (a small enough amount that there was something left of his spirit to reinhabit his body when Michael did CPR). Sort of like he uses bits of his soul when using soul-fire.
Hmmm...so either Cowl left early or he didn't see the maybe-Death Curse as an example of why Harry was making the Wardens so nervous (Perhaps Harry didn't make the Wardens nervous before GP?).
I'm don't quite get what you're saying here. Why can't Cowl be Simon and be an ally of the Fomor?
Also can you be more specific as to why re-reading of Dead Beat while specifically thinking about a Cowl = Simon theory made that theory more difficult to swallow?
I'm inclined to think it was a full death curse because the effect was like something we've never seen before (and we have a WoJ that death curses have a quality that makes them stand out from merely supercharged spells).
1) My guess is that Cowl and Kumori were smart enough to get the heck out of Dodge once the violence kicked off. The whole point of using proxies is that you avoid taking physical risks yourself.
2) There is no definite reason that I can think of that Cowl could not be Simon as well as a servant of the Fomor.
3) A more careful re-read of Dead Beat left me with the impression that Cowl had worked with Kemmler and/or the Kemmlerites before and had a relationship with them going way back before Archangel. It is possible that this could still apply to Simon but it just doesn't quite feel right.
They treat him as a peer of sorts but not as an intense rival (like they treat each other). This makes me think that he is an ally but an outsider (not a Kemmlerite). If you look at the Kemmlerites as filling the same role as Vittorio or Bianca I think that it feels similar. An outside power offering assistance and the idiots taking the power not being smart enough to realize that they are being played.
2) I personally don't think he's a servant of the Fomor. I beleive that he is a (high ranking) servant of the Circle and the Circle as a whole are allied with the Fomor. This explains how he can have the portals with the marshy,wet smell and have the warbling voice that is possibly caused by Fomor grafts while not being a servant of the Fomor.I think Cowl is just an unlucky powerful white council member who got infected and now works for Nemesis. Probably not one we have seen much and certainly not Simon. Simon is dead.
3) i also think he has worked with the Kemmlerites before (but not Kemmler). I think that he did so on the orders of the Circle.
I saw them as treating him as an enemy ( I think they treated each other that way too). What makes you think that they treated him as a peer but not an intense rival?
I think Cowl is just an unlucky powerful white council member who got infected and now works for Nemesis. Probably not one we have seen much and certainly not Simon. Simon is dead.
Would you care to present your arguments?For Simons dead I trust what is said about it in Summer Knight and the woj about his dead curse. Simon as traitor would not have left the white council, he was in too good a position to do loads of damage. Or, if he was behind the fall of Archangel he could have delivered the fortress without too much struggle and arranged for wizards captives to be turned by the reds. In stead we see dead curses employed.
For Simons dead I trust what is said about it in Summer Knight and the woj about his dead curse. Simon as traitor would not have left the white council, he was in too good a position to do loads of damage. Or, if he was behind the fall of Archangel he could have delivered the fortress without too much struggle and arranged for wizards captives to be turned by the reds. In stead we see dead curses employed.
Cowl is clearly hiding his identity that means he has an identity worth hiding. With his strength in mortal magic, he can apparently summon outsiders, and Harry's feel about his magic I think he is human.his conversations sound human as well.
He was behind Lea's infection and the coup in white night. Both actions For Nemesis. His conversation shows some imbalance that I used to attribute to black magic using but nemesis possession fits the bill as well.
The WoJ doesn't actually say it was his death curse. It could easily have been a member of the Brute Squad who realized that Simon was Cowl. Not only that but we may also have a precedent in surviving death curses in Harry's pyrofeugo in GP.
Cowl may have had Kumori ressurect him after using his death curse (to make it look more realistic to wizard examiners).I have read that woj and while such an interpretation is technical possible it sounds like a desperate one designed by people who do not want to loose their pet theory. It is forced and I do not buy it.
Simon is an SC level wizard so he is probably a high ranking member of the Circle and/or a person infected by Nemesis that Nemesis places a high priority on. How much damage could Simon have really done? He was a well known figure in the wizarding community and close friends with Eb and Martha Liberty (and information expert). Not only that but he was far far away from the WC headquarters.Their suspicions would not have made any difference. He could have tried the darkhallow as Simon and it would not made that much of a difference because Simon as Cowl would not have a white council identity left to protect. The only real explanation for the disguise is a still functioning white council member.
Peabody did far more damage than Simon could ever have done.
Not only that but "dying" did tons of bad stuff to the WC and left him free to pursue the Darkhallow. It makes sense that Nemesis/the Circle would send such a powerfull operative to become a literal GOD. They of course wanted to ensure the best possible chance that they could get the prize.
If he had delvered the fortress without much struggle than the WC would have gotten suspicous. Some of the top wizards in the world are in it and they would have gotten suspicous if things weren't completely decimated. Also, the WC would have suspected something was up if there weren't any bodies. Why were there no death curses is what they would have been thinking.
Also, how could he have arranged for wizard captives?Sending them on stupid missions to be ambushed. Arranging performance talks and immobilise them one by one and feed them to smuggled in vampires. Loads of other methods a figure with near absolute power and trust could use.
I'm not seeing how anything else in your post clashes with Simon being Cowl ???. In fact, don't they strengthen it?I thought you were also talking about cowl being human or not. That one was mentioned as well.
Recall that Harry needed Micheals help. Cowl would probably have needed Kumori's help.
And Simon had a female apprentice... ;D
Though in what time period? She's probably not an apprentice anymore if she was back in WW1 for example.
True. But I don't think we have word that Simon cut ties with her or vice-versa do we?
Not what I expected... I was thinking this was a play on Simon Cowell and we were about to see a ton of American Idol or America's got Talent references.
We don't, but would Larisa still be acting like an apprentice decades later?in DB kimori is helping cowl of her own free will. reread the talk her an harry have when she catches him sitting. it makes it seem much more that she believes in what he's doing as the lesser evil, not out of master apprentice obligation. theoretically she doesn't have to still be an apprentice to associate with him.
IIRC Cowl was brought in as a character before those two dhows went on air.
in DB kimori is helping cowl of her own free will. reread the talk her an harry have when she catches him sitting. it makes it seem much more that she believes in what he's doing as the lesser evil, not out of master apprentice obligation. theoretically she doesn't have to still be an apprentice to associate with him.
I do not think that was a dead curse. Just overuse of magic.
I have read that woj and while such an interpretation is technical possible it sounds like a desperate one designed by people who do not want to loose their pet theory. It is forced and I do not buy it.
It is also my pet theory that a dead curse uses energy needed for a shade to continue its existence without a body and attempt resurrection and that is the reason we see no necromancers using dead curses.
Their suspicions would not have made any difference. He could have tried the darkhallow as Simon and it would not made that much of a difference because Simon as Cowl would not have a white council identity left to protect. The only real explanation for the disguise is a still functioning white council member.
As for why Simon would fake his death:
Just look what happens
-It creates a schism in the Senior Council and Council at large.
-It creates a void in the senior council that could alter the balance of power within the council.
-It creates fear throughout the council.
-It gives the Reds, who are likely as not just cats-paws a huge sense confidence in their ability to strike at the council.
-It removed some of the Council's most potent strike forces (likely only behind Eb, and the Senior Council as a whole) in the "brute squad" from the field entirely, potentially dramatically altering the balance of power in the war and in the supernatural world as a whole.
Sending them on stupid missions to be ambushed. Arranging performance talks and immobilise them one by one and feed them to smuggled in vampires. Loads of other methods a figure with near absolute power and trust could use.
For the red court life captive wizards are extremely valuable.
The one who led the vampires in did not have that. Just the keys.
I thought you were also talking about cowl being human or not. That one was mentioned as well.
I think we should agree to disagree on these points.The gatekeeper disappears all the time. Just let people get used to it.
Simon is an SC member and leader of the Brute Squad. He has many many responsiblies and is constrained by his power (this is a running theme in the Dresdenverse). He wouldn't have been able to sneak out of Archangel. He would simply not be able to stay in Chicago long enough to preform the Darkhallow.
By that time Archangel was already fallen. As known traitor he does not need to hide his face
I can't think of any possible excuse or false mission he could create which would allow him to go to Chicago for the time it took to preform the darkhallow.
Especially since he is the vampire expert during the vampire war.No he has not if he is dead. No secret identity needed because he now has only the cowl identity. Cowl has no reason to hide his face if he was simon!
Simon would definately have a WC identity to protect.
As I said before, the attack on Archangel did a ton of bad things to the WC. Some examples:The shock of him being a traitor, of everybody could be a traitor, would compensate for that.
If Simon revealed he was a traitor that lessens the impact of 3 of those.
Not only that but if Simon (and SC MEMBER) was revealed as a traitor than rampant paranoia would have been created throughout the WC. The risk of Peabody being found out would have being increased tremendouslyNot really. He was not found when paranoia was rampant after the betrayals that lead to the defeats in dead beat.
and he was one of the best people to be a traitor. having him be removed and the younger wardens potentially de-mind boinked would have been a very bad blow to the Circles goals. Not to mention that Simon was close friends with both Eb and Martha Liberty. There's no telling what Eb at least would do after he found out that such a close friend was a traitor.You can arrange that in a few days and everything will be over before they know it. Treason of the supreme commander can be devastating.
Sending them on stupid mission sounds like a very bad idea.
Simon is obviously a brilliant military leader or he would not have been chosen to lead the Brute Squad. Sustaining heavy losses would be very very suspicious and would also likely get him removed from his position.By that time it would be too late.
Also, how would he stop them from using death curses to kill themselves?Sleep potions and thorn manacles. Simply invite them one by one in your room.
<snip>
We don't, but would Larisa still be acting like an apprentice decades later?
The core argument of the Cowl=Simon theory is very simple and very powerful:
we know that Cowl is a human SC-level wizard, so the list of suspect is very short
This doesn't exactly make sense to me. To me, this argument assumes that we've seen every human SC-level wizard in the Dresdenverse, and that because we've seen them all, Cowl must therefore be one of them. That's a pretty big assumption, with no support to back it up, especially given Harry's notoriety for unreliable narration. A wizard of SC-level skill could easily hide their existence from others if he or she so chose.
And Cowl has at least made vague allusions to Council internal politics.
"The Council is not what it was," said Cowl. "It has rotted from the inside, and many wizards who have chafed at its restrictions have seen the war with the Red Court reveal its weakness. It will fall. Soon. Perhaps before tomorrow night."
Harry has not met most of the Senior Council eligible wizards. Most of them appear to be hermits or retired or whatever.a good question for jim, has cowl been seen yet without his uhh... cowl? ::)
That does not mean that the OTHER Senior Council eligible wizards are not familiar with them though. I find it highly unlikely that people like Langtry, Eb and Rashid are not familiar with all of the 250+ year old wizards on the White Council. They may not have seen some of them for a century or two but they would likely recognize them if they ran into them - which is the whole point of the disguise.
I'm not going to go any further into the details of the, is he/isn't he debate. It makes some sense that Cowl is a wizard with SC ability but there is nothing to really nail it down, at least not for me.
Do most of you who think Cowl=Simon also think Elaine=Kumori? I can buy the later more than the former. My question to those who believe both equations are true. Has anyone put together a WAG why Elaine would hook up with the man whose apprentice enthralled her when she was a teenager? Granted we don't have much information about Elaine after she ran away from Justin's burning house and we really know even less about Simon, but I'm hoping someone has tried to think how it might have worked.
That raises an interesting point. Has Jim said anything about when we might see Elaine again? It's hard to get any more clues with her out of the picture for so long. She was in the fourth and the ninth book. (Maybe in the seventh book too.) I think she is overdue for an appearance.
Exactly. His line struck me, since the council values secrecy so much, how would he know that they're 'rotting.
Do most of you who think Cowl=Simon also think Elaine=Kumori?
Has anyone put together a WAG why Elaine would hook up with the man whose apprentice enthralled her when she was a teenager?
Do most of you who think Cowl=Simon also think Elaine=Kumori?I'm of the mind that Cowl=Simon, but Kumori isn't really anyone else (possibly the apprentice that Simon has been mentioned having; she's more unknown than Kumori as far as we're concerned). I don't think that Kumori=Elaine.
Not since the recent mention that Simon had a female apprentice.
Because she was never enthralled, but a free-willed associate of Justin and went to Simon for support and protection when Justin died ?
I have always thought it possible that Simon was possibly behind the involvement of Justin and Maggie in all of these plots in the first place.
I am fond of that notion, because I get the strong impression that knowledge about Outsiders is very rare in the DV (there's a Law against looking for it, and we see in Bob's report of the Council going all Fahrenheit 451 on Kemmler's writings in DB what the Council's policy is like with regard to information specifically about Lawbreaking), and if Simon == Cowl, we then have direct connections between everyone we've seen display knowledge of Outsiders in the series prior to CD (Justin as Simon's apprentice, and Justin and Maggie and Lord Raith linked by Eb in BR) which would be neat and orderly and Occamian.
I am fond of that notion, because I get the strong impression that knowledge about Outsiders is very rare in the DV (there's a Law against looking for it, and we see in Bob's report of the Council going all Fahrenheit 451 on Kemmler's writings in DB what the Council's policy is like with regard to information specifically about Lawbreaking), and if Simon == Cowl, we then have direct connections between everyone we've seen display knowledge of Outsiders in the series prior to CD (Justin as Simon's apprentice, and Justin and Maggie and Lord Raith linked by Eb in BR) which would be neat and orderly and Occamian.But there is one place that most likely has books about outsiders. Lord Raith's library.
But there is one place that most likely has books about outsiders. Lord Raith's library.
There has to be some source for information about Outsiders getting into the Lord Raith/Maggie/Justin/Cowl-if-he-is-Simon cabal, and maybe Lord Raith has some of that now, but I am not seeing any reason to assume that he's the one who first had it, rather than having learned it from Maggie or one of the others.There was talk about a library, not just a few books.
Given that Lord Raith appears to be sufficiently low-grade a magical talent to need to work with others to pull off a ritual, though, I suspect that anything he has will at best be specific magical recipes (like Victor Sell's set of spells) rather than that he can be a researcher and designer of sophisticated Outsider-based magic; Maggie seems a much more likely candidate for that to me.
I do not think Lord Raith had these books for himself. He has a history of enthralling sorceresses and they were for their use as well.
Sorry, where do you get that about the history from ? The sorceresses in BR don't seem enthralled; I doubt they'd have aimed a curse at Inari if they had been.I presume the normal whampire lust whammie but we do not know for sure. Margaret might have been but after her death curse Lord Raith had to preserve energy.
This doesn't exactly make sense to me. To me, this argument assumes that we've seen every human SC-level wizard in the Dresdenverse, and that because we've seen them all, Cowl must therefore be one of them. That's a pretty big assumption, with no support to back it up, especially given Harry's notoriety for unreliable narration. A wizard of SC-level skill could easily hide their existence from others if he or she so chose.
I think this bears repeating. I love Simon=Cowl but the OP makes a somewhat baffling assumption. Elegast, could you present your rational?
I don't see how it would be easy for a White Council trained wizard to live 250-300 years while amassing such skill and power without his peers (similarly old and powerful wizards) knowing about him.
I think this bears repeating. I love Simon=Cowl but the OP makes a somewhat baffling assumption. Elegast, could you present your rational?
An offensive action like a full assault from the Senior Council, the seven oldest and strongest wizards on the planet, had been long overdue.Luccio says:
"And frankly, we must protect the lives of the Senior Council. So long as they are concealed from the enemy and still able to take action, they are a dangerous force. Together they wield more power than any hundred members of the Council, and it can be concentrated with deadly effect,
And it's far from certain that any other SC-council level wizard exists: in Dead Beat Harry says:
Sure.
I'm not saying that Simon must be Cowl. I'm just saying that if Cowl is a known character, then it must be Simon.
And it's far from certain that any other SC-council level wizard exists: in Dead Beat Harry says:Luccio says:
Which seems to imply that the SC is the Top 7 among wizards.
in SK they listed a half dozen possibilities.. including lucciozi, who made Eb twitch, who went missing in south america right before the war started, who may be related to luccio..
he got just as much "screen time" as Simon, and is of SC level. so why not him?
;D
I don't see how it would be easy for a White Council trained wizard to live 250-300 years while amassing such skill and power without his peers (similarly old and powerful wizards) knowing about him.
It is sort of like having some super duper movie assassin pop-up that no one knows about. The odds are really, really good that they had serious military training at some point.
They can probably physically hide but they can't hide their identity (if they walk around with no disguise) because the community is just too small and the skillset is just too unique. Someone in the community will recognize them.
Harry and Elaine are really the only examples of White Council educated wizards that we who were not known to the White Council during their apprenticeships. Even Kemmler's disciples were known to the White Council (and if I had to guess I would say that they were actual members who defected or were corrupted).
Sure.
I'm not saying that Simon must be Cowl. I'm just saying that if Cowl is a known character, then it must be Simon.
And it's far from certain that any other SC-council level wizard exists: in Dead Beat Harry says:Luccio says:
Which seems to imply that the SC is the Top 7 among wizards.
Molly was being trained by Lea. I don't see why a wizard has to be in the White Council.
Ah I see. I suggest making that a bit more clear in the OP.
Both Harry and Luccio are people with limited knowledge. I can see them easily being mistaken.
Molly is very well known to the White Council.
That examples seems to prove my point more than your point.
Molly has also only been operating for a year or a year and a half under the tutelage of Lea and she is already infamous among many different powers in the supernatural community. Cowl (if not Simon) has likely been operating for decades or centuries.
Molly is deliberately making herself known to everyone. That's why she became the Rag Lady in the first place: To scare off supernatural baddies. I don't see why a wizard couldn't be picked up by a supernatural creature and taught while keeping themselves unknown to the WC.
We know this because Elaine disappeared after DuMorne's death and showed up later in California. The White Council tested her, but she deliberately threw the test and was not inducted. However there's no indication that they asked who had trained her (even though she clearly had been trained), or that they even cared. Elaine might not have come to their attention at all if she hadn't tried to operate openly.
So it seems clear that people of WC-level power can and do operate outside the White Council, and even do so without their knowledge.
It is definitely possible.
It would just take a century or two for that wizard to get to Cowl's level.
We also have no in-universe examples of this being done. Only examples of supernatural powers kidnapping or luring magic users that don't make the radar of the White Council.
If they are skilled enough to fake being low-level practitioners, perhaps.
Morty has council level strength though very specialised. Nobody knows. Harry discovered it only in ghost story.
Yeah but you have to remember that they had just got hit HARD by the rampires and were dealing with a potential traitor in the Council as well. My guess is they saw what Simon's 'Death Curse' did and saw there was no body left and put two and two together. IIRC we have no WoJ of ANYONE finding Simon's body.
Jim's answer only strengthened my faith in Simon being Cowl, because he essentially said that someone could fake a Death Curse. Sure there might be a 'trail' of sorts, but again, if something looks like a Death Curse, there isn't really a need for them to look into it, especially considering the fact that they had a lot more on their plates that had higher priority than to question whether a highly trusted wizard's Death Curse was legit or not.
Exactly. TC makes that point well. And as I said before, if it looks like a Death Curse, especially from someone who was a trusted Council member, why look into it? They had more than enough proof to believe it was a Death Curse, as evidenced by the wreckage of Archangel they found. Plus? Huge war going on lol.
We see in TC that it takes the Council's very best forensics people to figure out even the rudiments of a magical crime scene that's in the heart of their own territory where they are totally familiar with the environment; it surpasses my belief that they could do even that well in the middle of a war zone, or would risk their best people in a war zone to get that information.
Yeah, but as for that, it's the difference between "Was this a death curse" and "What did his death curse do?" They were able to determine that a death curse was not cast when LaFortier get whacked. So it's not impossible. They were trying something far far more delicate in Edinburgh than what would be required to determine if a Death Curse was cast. Then again, that assumes they even think to ask, and don't just take it as read that it happened.ya but they could only do it by how,any wards there were andthey knew how they were arranged
Peabody lost the paperwork? :)i totally hate the simon cowl thing, but that's a damn good point....
:) Thanks. It was my silly way of pointing out we STILL don't know how much and what Peabody did in the YEARS he was running around. Or any other agents.
It's likely the SC doesn't either, which has got to make them excrete paving stones.
:) Thanks. It was my silly way of pointing out we STILL don't know how much and what Peabody did in the YEARS he was running around. Or any other agents.I always assumed Peabody simply invaded some minds and the wizard(s) influenced that way just led the vampires in. It is the most simple explanation.
It's likely the SC doesn't either, which has got to make them excrete paving stones.
I grant that the case for Simon = Cowl is a strong one, but if it turns out to be true then the story needs to explain how Simon convinced the WC he was dead, and "the body was missing" is not going to do that.
...assuming he leveled his DC, yep, sounds about right. :)
My bet here is that Simon's "death curse" looked like a major explosion followed by collapse of his fortress, and there was no checking for his body without moving hundreds of tons of rubble.
My bet here is that Simon's "death curse" looked like a major explosion followed by collapse of his fortress, and there was no checking for his body without moving hundreds of tons of rubble.
I could also entirely believe Simon rigging his fortress to blow, with the intent of then disappearing, and the Council taking it for granted it was a death curse. If you look at the scenes in laFortier's room in TC, the Council's very best people are stretched to their limits to get really rather little information out of a crime scene in an environment over which they have complete control; even if they are going to risk sending their best investigators into a war zone, I don't believe they'd be able to get anywhere near so much information out of the remains of Archangel.
How many times has Petrovich actually been mentioned in the books? (Mentions of Archangel can count).
How many times has Petrovich actually been mentioned in the books? (Mentions of Archangel can count).
Mentioned at the end of Proven Guilty by Ebenezar when saying why he doesn't trust Rashid. Mentioned in Changes by Ebenezar with the "Remember Archangel!" line. Mentioned by Ebenezar again when he's revealing that he's the Blackstaff and explaining why he took out Ortega.Mentioned by Kincaid as well, re: Eb's attack on Ortega.
I always assumed Peabody simply invaded some minds and the wizard(s) influenced that way just led the vampires in. It is the most simple explanation.anyone make the peabody, kemmler connection? peabody wrote a book(don't remember the date early 1900's?) that is instrumental to using the erlking's hunter spirits to complete a darkhallow. he later turns out to be a traitor seeking the councils destruction, coincidence? i think not... peabody writing that book(in german, kemmlers native land?) is reeeal fishy to me.
ahhh but thats the thing, how important is simon? unless he is cowl not very. thanks for mentioning the justin was his apprentice thing, didn't realise that and hadn't seen it brought up.
Cowl as an alternate dimension Harry could probably be made to check off every box needed though now that I think about it.Me too; that's also where I stand on Petrovich as Cowl. Mostly I think Cowl is just Cowl - his identity won't matter as much as how he got the way he is, and how much of his road Harry will eventually have to walk.
I don't particularly like the theory but it could be possible I guess.