ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Lord Kinbote on January 23, 2026, 03:13:21 PM
-
I had a strong, negative reaction to Mab in Twelve Months so I thought I'd open a specific thread to hopefully get some thoughts and perspectives to help resolve the reactions and questions I had, including whether I misunderstood or am just wrong.
- Part of the plot that the book is driven by is Mab giving Dresden a task that he must complete – make peace with Etri such that the Svartelves resume their relationship with the Winter Court, once again become its armors supplier, etc. So important is this task that Mab threatens Maggie. Does Dresden accomplish this task? Heck no, he instead delegates/re-assigns the task to Mab, who then does the job. Mab has more than once in prior books been absolutely clear that Dresden is to complete whatever task she assigns him, no matter how difficult and personally distasteful. But not here. Why?
- The apparent answer is that Mab was so happy that Dresden accomplished the second objective that Mab gave Dresden – Lara’s subservience – that Mab was willing to take back and perform the other objective when she ‘granted a wish’ to Dresden. To me, the question of why is Mab doing that still remains. Dresden completed this second task that job Mab required. I don’t recall Mab previously doing more than acknowledging Dresden’s success with a ‘well done’ and maybe an added word or two on how clever his solution was. Why would Mab obligate herself so readily and so open-endedly, especially to Dresden who has attempted to escape her clutches and has proven himself to be both clever and a malcontent. In this situation – and in light of the ensuing physical altercation with Dresden – I simply can’t believe the Mab from prior books would grant Dresden such an open-ended, risky boon simply because he basically did what Mab had told him to do. It wasn’t as if Dresden success got Mab more than what she required, i.e., Lara’s subservience. After all, he got no reward at all at the end of Battle Ground. But the granting of the boon and Dresden ‘re-delegating up’ is the road to solving the ‘impossible’ task with Etri. Kind of a cheat resolution to the conflict Butcher presented in the first few chapters.
- With regard to the boon, how many subparts/parameters is Dresden allowed in his wish? This adds to my thought that the boon is used as a cheat resolution to all or almost all of challenges facing Dresden – ‘Thankfully, Mab just happened to obligate herself to fulfilling a wish, and I wish that she personally resolve all of the tasks and personal challenges I have that involve third persons.” Dresden should have added that the possibility of Dresden’s conflicts with the White Counsel, including the possibility of Dresden’s death at its hands, has always been a burden on Thomas so she must resolve that conflict as well. I’ve admired Butcher’s resolutions to difficult problems and puzzles that he sets up in his books. Resolving everything here with an over-expansive use of a boon uncharacteristically granted out of left field falls far short of his prior standard, IMO.
- FWTW, if it’s all one big Triple Lindy that Mab orchestrated so that she would be the one able to bargain with the life of Thomas and Justine’s son to resolve the conflict with Etri, I don’t see the linkage between Dresden use of the boon somehow giving Mab the authority to use the infant, or that Dresden somehow could grant Mab that authority since he didn’t have such authority in his own right.
- And separate and apart from the above the issue of Mab obligating herself openendedly to Dresden, WTH was that scene in Dresden’s bedroom? Mab seemingly willing to have sex with Dresden, perhaps to the point where Dresden’s consent (or lack thereof) was becoming a real issue. And then Dresden physically assaults Mab? As the Winter Knight, how is that possible? And even if possible, why would Mab allow it? Just to show Dresden that he was the Winter Knight in all of its meanings? Remember the Cold Days scene when Dresden threatened Mab with a gun? Where is that Mab?
But Dresden is able to and does assault Mab, and sending her flying across the room into a stone wall, breaking bones, stomping on her, etc. No matter how pleased Mab is with Harry, all of that seemed far out of character from the Mab we’ve seen before who doesn't allow disrespect, sass, etc. from anyone, much less her vassals. And Mab smiles throughout, seems to enjoy it. Is Mab that self-satisfied or overjoyed in her belief that Dresden is no longer his own? Even if so, I don’t think Mab has anything to gain by effectively rubbing Dresden’s nose in her conclusion that he's now Winter-compromised. Where’s the gracious Mab (relatively) from conversation that she and Dresden had at the end of Battle Ground?
- All of which leads me to The Question - is Mab compromised by Nemesis? Is that even Mab at that point in the book? (Mother Winter’s later appearance would indicate it's Mab in that scene.) I hope that there’s some explanation for Mab’s actions other than Butcher wrote himself into a corner with Thomas and the Svartelves and then had to write Dresden out of the corner by having Mab act way, way out of character (IMO, of course). Or did I just miss something and I’m way off base here?
Love to hear your thoughts.
-
Mab can't order Harry to turn over Thomas (or Maggie). That was part of his deal in Changes. I think a lot of Man's out of character behavior was her manipulating Harry./, who we are repeatedly told and shown is not operating at his usual level.
I think the boon was offered because Mab new exactly what Harry was going to ask for. She jokingly offered Harry just about everything she has given him by tricking him into enslaving Lara. That Harry isn't going to take great advantage of that is irrelevant.
It's like most of the deals Harry makes with Mab. She ends up with what she wants and doesn't actually give him anything he didn't already have that she didn't want anyway.
And she gets to say, you asked for it.
As I read the book, the sleep with Lara, sleep with Lara train Mab was on seemed off to me. I figured it wasn't what Mab actually wanted because how well have direct orders like that worked out before?
I did think the Thomas's blood relative having to be sacrificed as a solution was going to end up being the end of Lord Raith.
-
I see it this way. If Molly knows what Harry is thinking because of the mantle then so does mab and on top of it she knows what Molly thinks Harry would do as well. She also knows that it's going to be a life for a life. Harry would never trade a baby or give up his brother so he would probably go to war by himself if necessary. But now mab has the white court, she repaired her problem with her weapons maker, she has a new outsider to interrogate and Harry Laura and Thomas all believing that if it wasn't for mab all 3 of them and the baby would have been dead. And on top of it Harry got mother winter to stop annoying mab about getting a better knight. But none of this could have happened if Harry didn't have to fix it to begin with. I could see mab giving it to him so she could put the pieces where they needed to be. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr sunshine didn't help her put it all together
-
I agree with Bad Alias, I think Mab "out of character" moments are what she needs to do to manipulate Dresden. He is not in a good mental state in this book, otherwise he would have realized what Mab was doing. I mean, I realize Lara was becoming an addict as soon as she said she had not eaten in a week. And when Mab threaten to kill Justine? Harry knew he has asked for them to be safe and Mab had agreed, so WTH did he believe her threat? He should have known it was a ruse to make Thomas willing to live and recover. But Harry was stupid once again, because he is tired, especially emotionally.
So, one reason I see for the boon is that Harry cannot complain. He asked for it and she gave him what he asked for. It is not her fault he did not specified that Thomas kept the child or something. We know Harry will blame himself and not her.
I also thought Lord Raith would be what Etri would get (for a while I was worried Eb would be the one paying the price, tbh).
-
I also thought Lord Raith would be what Etri would get (for a while I was worried Eb would be the one paying the price, tbh).
At one point, I thought a solution for Harry was to have Mab marry Thomas. It would have achieved her stated goals of alliance. Her unstated goal was control.
-
Nice.
-
Love to hear your thoughts.
I think you're forgetting the fundamental fact, that Mab is *not* a fully-fledged "character" and she is absolutely one of the ones (beings like the angels, the Mothers, gods, etc.) most self-aware in-universe of that fact. 99.999999999~% of Mab's actions in the past millennium or so are as a direct result of her being a "puppet" to her fate as Winter fae/Maiden/Queen. But everything she does is in essence "Mab," that being steering the world towards it's continued existence, no matter the cost to her or anyone else. Any "inconsistencies" are as likely to be just a fundamental "expression" of fae-ness (who are deliberately mythologically contradictory in essence, outside of the few fundamental "hard rules" they have, which are actually pretty flexible in their own right) as they are legitimate writer's faults.
- And separate and apart from the above the issue of Mab obligating herself openendedly to Dresden, WTH was that scene in Dresden’s bedroom? Mab seemingly willing to have sex with Dresden, perhaps to the point where Dresden’s consent (or lack thereof) was becoming a real issue. And then Dresden physically assaults Mab? As the Winter Knight, how is that possible? And even if possible, why would Mab allow it? Just to show Dresden that he was the Winter Knight in all of its meanings? Remember the Cold Days scene when Dresden threatened Mab with a gun? Where is that Mab?
With that said, this point in particular, at least to me, indicates how much she actually appreciates Harry's usefulness, by allowing him exactly what Harry seems to value the most, to express his Free Will to seemingly screw over "the bigger bads" and show them that he won't "play ball," without him realizing how "badly" he's actually being played by them.
Only at the end during the exorcism ritual of Thomas did he realize how "well played" he got, yet again.
-
I see it this way. If Molly knows what Harry is thinking because of the mantle then so does mab and on top of it she knows what Molly thinks Harry would do as well. She also knows that it's going to be a life for a life. Harry would never trade a baby or give up his brother so he would probably go to war by himself if necessary. But now mab has the white court, she repaired her problem with her weapons maker, she has a new outsider to interrogate and Harry Laura and Thomas all believing that if it wasn't for mab all 3 of them and the baby would have been dead. And on top of it Harry got mother winter to stop annoying mab about getting a better knight. But none of this could have happened if Harry didn't have to fix it to begin with. I could see mab giving it to him so she could put the pieces where they needed to be. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr sunshine didn't help her put it all together
Mab comes off as wicked and cruel, but she is what she is, and she also will do whatever it takes to keep the world save from the Outside. Harry sees that and sided with her in the end. Uriel enters into it with his seven words to Harry back in Cold Days, those still apply. When she says to him after she tells him she is so pleased with him she is granting him a boon, and then adds that he is becoming as wicked as she is. Harry gets very upset and normally would go off the deep end and screw everything up. Then he remembers what Uriel whispered to him, in this case Mab was telling lies, she cannot change who he is, only he can do that. That's the truth he clings to.
-
I get that Mab was manipulating Harry and Harry was so off his game he didn't fully grasp what was going on. Harry asked for the boon that Mab was willing to give him and that she wanted to give him; even if it was forced on her by Harry, because it got Mab the results she wanted to achieve in any case.
However, I get where Lord Kinbote is coming from. As a writer, I think Jim played a very dangerous game with how he resolved Harry's problem with Mr. Etri. It comes close to looking like a Deus ex machina solution, except in this case the deus in question set up being asked to solve Harry's problem. So it's not a Deus ex machina solution, but the resemblance is there.
Another comparison about how Harry's problem with Mr. Etri was solved is to think about the task Harry was given in Ghost Story, to find his murderer. Harry didn't really do anything conscious to achieve that goal. At some point Harry says that he hasn't done anything to find his murderer, I think it was Lea who countered, (Not the exact quote, but close) "You've been doing nothing but look for your murderer since you arrived." Harry was frustrated with that answer and some readers; myself included, were frustrated with Ghost Story itself. The manner in which Harry eventually did find out how he got shot was very well done, the problem was that much of Ghost Story that came before that point felt like it was just meandering on with no clear direction.
Twelve Months did not have that problem. The story was told in a much cleaner and crisp manner, but it failed to show us Harry even trying to think of a solution on his own. As in Ghost Story, the readers didn't see Harry do anything to attempt a solution. When we got the solution, it wasn't as satisfying as the one in Ghost Story because it wasn't as clever and it didn't carry the same emotional weight as Harry finding out he used Molly to set up his own murder.
Here is what I thought was going to happen as I was reading the story. When Harry told Mr. Etri about Nemesis, I thought Harry would use his detective skills to find Justine or find something Nemesis wanted to draw Justine out and capture her; and then with Mr. Etri on hand but probably in hiding, demonstrate that Nemesis was in control of her. Even if Harry still needed Mab to draw up a final agreement with Etri which involved Thomas losing his child, that would have felt more like a Dresden Files story we are familiar with. (Side note, I didn't think the solution would be as straightforward as I described. Harry might have to look in Lord Raith's library for clues or become inspired by something Ebenezar would tell him to get a hint how to draw out Nemesis, but I thought we would see Harry being a detective, putting clues and ideas together to reach his adjective.)
Maybe Jim was trying to stretch himself as a writer by doing something different than give the readers a typical Dresden Files novel ending, but it felt as if Jim might have written himself into a corner and came up with Mab offering Harry a boon as a cheat code to get out of the writer's trap he had stepped into.
-
I get that Mab was manipulating Harry and Harry was so off his game he didn't fully grasp what was going on. Harry asked for the boon that Mab was willing to give him and that she wanted to give him; even if it was forced on her by Harry, because it got Mab the results she wanted to achieve in any case.
Yeah, it seemed very clear to me that Mab knew exactly what he was going to ask for when he called in the boon. She was having fun with it.
I largely agree with everything else too. My biggest frustration with 12 Months is that Harry didn't really try anything after his meeting with Etri. I mean, in Chapter 51 Harry says he tried to find her every week. I think we needed to see some of that earlier in the book and probably repeatedly. We probably also needed to see Harry try to find a solution to Etri in addition to just finding Justine. They were presented as separate problems.
-
Mab can't order Harry to turn over Thomas (or Maggie). That was part of his deal in Changes. I think a lot of Man's out of character behavior was her manipulating Harry./, who we are repeatedly told and shown is not operating at his usual level.
I think the boon was offered because Mab new exactly what Harry was going to ask for. She jokingly offered Harry just about everything she has given him by tricking him into enslaving Lara. That Harry isn't going to take great advantage of that is irrelevant.
It's like most of the deals Harry makes with Mab. She ends up with what she wants and doesn't actually give him anything he didn't already have that she didn't want anyway.
And she gets to say, you asked for it.
As I read the book, the sleep with Lara, sleep with Lara train Mab was on seemed off to me. I figured it wasn't what Mab actually wanted because how well have direct orders like that worked out before?
I did think the Thomas's blood relative having to be sacrificed as a solution was going to end up being the end of Lord Raith.
I highlighted those two sentences because I specifically wanted to address both of them. I'll take the second one first.
Thomas having to sacrifice a blood relative would lead to Lord Raith being sacrificed is a damned good idea. Kudos. Lara might have even been able to puppet her father saying he accepted his fate as necessary. It would have forced Lara to drop the mask and fully assert her role as the leader of the White Court, but that could have been fun to read as well.
The first sentence that you wrote brings up an interesting and related point. If Mab can't order Harry to turn over Thomas' child or Maggie to Mr. Etri, where does Harry get the authority to turn over Thomas' child to Etri?
I'm going to have to reread the section when Mab does her thing on Demonreach with Thomas. Did she say something to Thomas and was there a reaction from him that can be interpreted as his assent for Mab to do whatever was necessary to solve this problem? Because I don't see how her deal with Harry gives Mab that authority. Did Thomas say something to Harry during the two times he was conscious that gave Harry the authority to bargain for him? I've got to go out and won't be home until late tonight. If anyone finds a relevant quote that shows Harry had authority to bargain with Thomas' child please post it.
-
Harry doesn't need authority over the child. Or perhaps, he has authority as a mortal
“Then you should have traded her something for your freedom,” Bob said. “You know, stolen an extra baby or something and given it to her—” “Stolen a baby? I’m in enough trouble already.”
-
I mean, Harry had about as much claim as anyone to decide his Nephews fate, with one of his parent's in suspended animation and the other demonically possessed.
-
View Profile Personal Message (Offline)
Re: Mab (?) in Twelve Months
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 12:53:45 AM »
Quote
I mean, Harry had about as much claim as anyone to decide his Nephews fate, with one of his parent's in suspended animation and the other demonically possessed.
In a perfect world and normal world, yes. However in this case, no. Go back and reread the meeting between Harry and Etri, too much on the line. What he got was as good as he was going to get.
-
... If Mab can't order Harry to turn over Thomas' child or Maggie to Mr. Etri, where does Harry get the authority to turn over Thomas' child to Etri?
In the normal course of things, Mab absolutely could order her WK to turn over his nephew; the Queen's ability to make demands upon her Knight are sweeping, and particularly vast as regards mortal/fae relations.
But in Harry's original WK bargain with Mab, he negotiated a "friends&family discount," so they're off-limits to such demands.
I think Harry himself has the authority to negotiate in Thomas' stead, as his blood; so would Lara (or Raith Père), most likely... but neither of them was asserting any claim in the moment (and, very likely, Mab's need to fulfill her Boon would tip the scales between competing claims).
...
I'm going to have to reread the section when Mab does her thing on Demonreach with Thomas. Did she say something to Thomas and was there a reaction from him that can be interpreted as his assent for Mab to do whatever was necessary to solve this problem? Because I don't see how her deal with Harry gives Mab that authority. Did Thomas say something to Harry during the two times he was conscious that gave Harry the authority to bargain for him? I've got to go out and won't be home until late tonight. If anyone finds a relevant quote that shows Harry had authority to bargain with Thomas' child please post it.
I think @BadAlias has it correct; faeries seem to play by different rules when it comes to mortal children. Bob's remark tells us that simple theft (kidnapping) can give sufficient "right" to the child. As the only blood relative available, I think Harry is absolutely the one with rights under Faerie Law to conduct any such negotiations.
-
I think @BadAlias has it correct; faeries seem to play by different rules when it comes to mortal children. Bob's remark tells us that simple theft (kidnapping) can give sufficient "right" to the child. As the only blood relative available, I think Harry is absolutely the one with rights under Faerie Law to conduct any such negotiations.
Which Harry attempted at Mac's place with Etri. The problem was, though Harry claimed that Thomas was under the influence of an Outsider, the evidence that Etri had was that he did the deed on his own. Etri was willing to show some mercy, but needed proof. Harry couldn't get that proof because he couldn't find Justine, Lara tried to get that proof, but with all of her contacts couldn't find Justine. Time was running out, Harry's only recourse was to go to Mab. It worked out playing by the old rules, not by human law, the mercy was Thomas had to give up the child to pay for the life he chose to take.
-
... Time was running out, Harry's only recourse was to go to Mab. It worked out playing by the old rules, not by human law, the mercy was Thomas had to give up the child to pay for the life he chose to take.
Yeah, it was a very, very old-school / dark-faerie sort of resolution to the conundrum.
I imagine Mab was absolutely delighted, on a personal basis. More fun than she'd had in centuries, likely!
-
What I want to know is why Harry didn't have Alfred take Mab prisoner after she helped him with Thomas, I would think he could have and he wants to be out from under her control plus added bonus Molly would take her spot.
-
I don't think the mantle would have left Mab if she were imprisoned. And Harry needs to get out of the mantle "honestly," for a lack of a better word or Mab will get revenge on him.
If Jim goes by the letter of his deals Harry made with Mab, Harry can get out if Mab asks him for one more favor. This could happen if she needs Harry to do something that she has no right to otherwise order him to do. This could be to "lift a hand against those he loves" or just something the Queen can't command the Knight to do. There probably is something. Obligations run both ways.
Mab still hasn't cured Justine.
Harry should be starting to realize he is going to need Mab for whatever is coming.
-
I agree about the favour, something that people often dismiss.
I don't think Harry would have been able to imprison Mab without a "legal" reason. He is in Demonreach, yes, but she still owns him. Now, it would have been different if Mab has done something like trying to attack Alfred or something like that.
And humanity definitely needs Mab. Harry needs to find a way to get rid of the Mantle without harming her. I am wondering if we don't need to have a replacement for Harry before he can leave.
-
I agree about the favour, something that people often dismiss.
Unfortunately Jim has said things that make me think he dismissed it too.
I don't think Harry would have been able to imprison Mab without a "legal" reason.
I think this one is strictly about power. I don't think it has anything to do with anything other than will and power. I don't think fairy stuff has anything to do with it.
Now should is entirely different.
-
Unfortunately Jim has said things that make me think he dismissed it too.
Yes, I remember having read some WoJ about that too, but JB is not always consistent in what he says, and until all is said and done I refuse to believe that the favour thing was for nothing.
I think this one is strictly about power. I don't think it has anything to do with anything other than will and power. I don't think fairy stuff has anything to do with it.
Now should is entirely different.
I disagree. Of course, i don't have direct evidence either, but i don't think a WK can directly turn against his queen unless said queen does something that give him the right to do so. But, about that, i noticed that this time Mab did not ask for permission before stepping in Demonreach. She had done it before.
-
But, about that, i noticed that this time Mab did not ask for permission before stepping in Demonreach. She had done it before.
I think that was probably prearranged.
-
Perhaps. Harry did not seem suspicious or surprised.
-
From Mab's reaction especially at the end of Cold Days when Harry called up Alfred I think it very possible that Alfred could have imprisoned her. Not saying it would have been a good idea, and don't know if her mantle would have been separated from her or not. I think there is a way for the mantle to be separated, however a vessel is needed to deposit it into. As to a "legal" reason, does Harry need one?
-
Perhaps. Harry did not seem suspicious or surprised.
He wasn't surprised because of what he had asked for Mab's help. He was surprised when Mother Winter showed up.
-
What I want to know is why Harry didn't have Alfred take Mab prisoner after she helped him with Thomas, I would think he could have and he wants to be out from under her control plus added bonus Molly would take her spot.
Probably because locking Mab away is kinda a last resort, because then there's nobody in charge of the effort to defend the Outer Gates- not to mention the fact that the last time one of the Mantles was removed from play, we almost got an Ice Age. I doubt Global Warming going completely out of control would be good for anyone.
-
... I doubt Global Warming going completely out of control would be good for anyone.
Agreed, but I think irrelevant: with Mab out of play, I doubt the Outsiders would be kept away from Creation long-enough for Global Warming to progress any further than a few research-wonks looking at data and going "oh, this looks bad... this looks really really bad..."
-
Agreed, but I think irrelevant: with Mab out of play, I doubt the Outsiders would be kept away from Creation long-enough for Global Warming to progress any further than a few research-wonks looking at data and going "oh, this looks bad... this looks really really bad..."
Or if the mantle left Mab once she is imprisoned and since Lara was present and the mantle goes to the nearest possible vessel, Lara may have gotten nailed with it. Which could have been Mab's plan all along, if she had to sacrifice herself, i.e. go to prison, the Queen's mantle would have gone to a very strong woman that she respected.
-
... Which could have been Mab's plan all along, if she had to sacrifice herself, i.e. go to prison, the Queen's mantle would have gone to a very strong woman that she respected.
I don't think Demonreach has a mantle-stripping quality.
I know it's a fan-favorite, as a way to "rescue" Molly, or etc. Demonreach has a crapton of power, but entirely lacks the finesse and the understanding of Humanity that would be needed to separate a Mantle.
-
I don't think Demonreach has a mantle-stripping quality.
I know it's a fan-favorite, as a way to "rescue" Molly, or etc. Demonreach has a crapton of power, but entirely lacks the finesse and the understanding of Humanity that would be needed to separate a Mantle.
I don't think it has to have, I think the mantle on it's own accord would go to the nearest available vessel.
-
Again, we don't know. My feeling is, no, the mantle would not leave Mab unless she somehow can shake it, which I don't think is possible (unless very specific circumstances happen, at least)
-
Again, we don't know. My feeling is, no, the mantle would not leave Mab unless she somehow can shake it, which I don't think is possible (unless very specific circumstances happen, at least)
Which putting her in one of Demonreach's cells would, be very special circumstances.
-
I don't think it has to have, I think the mantle on it's own accord would go to the nearest available vessel.
Doubtful.
Demonreach is all about capturing Powers. If Harry were to genuinely target Mab, her Mantle would be captured (stripped of her Mantle, Mab is likely a broken mortal shell).
-
Doubtful.
Demonreach is all about capturing Powers. If Harry were to genuinely target Mab, her Mantle would be captured (stripped of her Mantle, Mab is likely a broken mortal shell).
However, that's what happens anyway, I don't think that Mother Winter was Queen before Mab, sounds like she has always been at the job. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if Mother Winter has stripped other Queens of their mantle in favor of a new one.
-
However, that's what happens anyway, I don't think that Mother Winter was Queen before Mab, sounds like she has always been at the job. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if Mother Winter has stripped other Queens of their mantle in favor of a new one.
Mother Winter can be called/summoned/contacted using three different goddesses' names. This to me implies that the Mother Winter "mantle" (if it even really is one) is much more powerful than any other mantle we've seen so far, and almost certainly would completely consume and replace the potential vessel, personality and all.
I do agree though that she was there way before the concept of Winter Queens or Ladies (if not faerie courts themselves) was ever created in the Dresdenverse.
-
Mother Winter can be called/summoned/contacted using three different goddesses' names. This to me implies that the Mother Winter "mantle" (if it even really is one) is much more powerful than any other mantle we've seen so far, and almost certainly would completely consume and replace the potential vessel, personality and all.
I do agree though that she was there way before the concept of Winter Queens or Ladies (if not faerie courts themselves) was ever created in the Dresdenverse.
There's a relevant WoJ:
1. the mothers – how does a queen become a mother? like after a thousand yrs, old winter dies and mab becomes the new mother?
Essentially abdication. The previous mother wearies of her duty and moves along. There’s been one new Mother Summer during recorded human history. Mother Winter has never retired.
-- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/
So one Mother Summer has voluntarily retired, but Mother Winter never.
-
[quote
So one Mother Summer has voluntarily retired, but Mother Winter never.
][/quote]
Recorded human history is a very long time.. Also you have to define "recorded," because the paintings on the walls of caves, while not "writing," does record what was at the time they were painted. Bottom line? While Mother Summer has been replaced once, and Mother Winter, never, Mab has only been queen a thousand years or so, so there had to have been other Queens. We don't know if Titania has been replaced.
-
... We don't know if Titania has been replaced.
We do, though -- Mab & Titania were born twins. Presumably they became fae around the same time, with a pair of Ladymantles.
We have "over a thousand years" that Mab has been Mab (i.e. Queen of Winter) and I suspect, particular, it was about 1330 years ago (roughly Arthurian era) -- because that's 2x the 666year Starborn/Outsider cycles (rounded down to the nearest decade). Those big Outsider-Wars are hard on the Fae. Or maybe go for 3 of those cycles, and we're back to the time of Yeshua son of Mary ...
We don't know how long Mab & Titania were Ladies, though. Immortals, they could have lasted a long time!
Even the names aren't great clues -- "Mab" is Celtic(Brythonic) in origin, "Titania" is Latin, first recorded in Ovid.
Maybe a Celt/Roman couple who had twins, and named one for each background?
But in any case, the Queens have been replaced much more than the Mothers have;
and the Ladies more-often still;
and the Knights get used up like a box of Kleenex during cold-season.
-
We know that Mab rode with the Conqueror, but we don't know if she was already Mab.
Also, the knights are mortals, so of course they come and go all the time.
-
I had forgotten that Mab and Titania were born twins, I just remembered that Maeve and Sarissa were also twins. Hmm.. Wonder if Aurora was also a twin? Though I doubt it.
-
We know that Mab rode with the Conqueror, but we don't know if she was already Mab ...
Just so.
Now, what I'm wondering is: which "Conqueror"?
Honestly: I think most of the fans presume William of Normandy; I myself am much less sure.
For one thing: this snippet comes from Ethniu, who despises mortals! I don't think she'd adopt so fanciful (and basically respectful) a title to describe any mortal whatsoever.
-
Just so.
Now, what I'm wondering is: which "Conqueror"?
Honestly: I think most of the fans presume William of Normandy; I myself am much less sure.
For one thing: this snippet comes from Ethniu, who despises mortals! I don't think she'd adopt so fanciful (and basically respectful) a title to describe any mortal whatsoever.
However Mab was mortal at some point, was she a Lady of Winter or Queen of Winter when she had her children by a mortal man?