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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: RobReece on October 31, 2025, 02:17:49 PM

Title: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: RobReece on October 31, 2025, 02:17:49 PM
Good morning, 
Someone in reddit posted a link to chapter 1 of Twelve Months,  but I'm not positive that it's legit.  There are a couple of things that bring up questions if it is.
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Let me know if you want to discuss the questions I have on this
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Just Al on October 31, 2025, 03:21:07 PM
I just read the sneak peek. It is published through the Penguin books web site, so that leads me to believe it's legit.

What strikes me as odd is the use of hyphens then spaces within words. That doesn't seem like anything Jim would do, but it may just be a weirdness involved in the HTML layout.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: g33k on October 31, 2025, 04:00:50 PM
What strikes me as odd is the use of hyphens then spaces within words...

This often occurs when you strip the text out of a formatted work, and republish the literal text in another format...

Quote
In the snug, lonely little cham‑ ber in the basement of the castle,

Most likely, "chamber" in the printed book occurred at the end of the line, and got hyphenated in layout, but not de-hyphenated for this little freebie snippet.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: RobReece on October 31, 2025, 04:23:18 PM
Does anyone want to discuss what possible issues I saw with it?

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I don't think these would have made it past the beta readers
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Lord Kinbote on November 01, 2025, 02:10:56 AM
From that tidbit (chapter?), Dresden seems to be in far worse mental and emotional shape than he was in Christmas Eve.  Maybe Christmas Eve occurs after this tidbit?
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: RobReece on November 01, 2025, 02:54:46 AM
According to the tidbit, it's only 2-3 weeks post battle,  that's about 5 months ahead of Christmas Eve.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 01, 2025, 04:31:22 AM

Couldn't find it, tried the link but it wasn't there.  Could they have taken it down?
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Dina on November 01, 2025, 07:50:19 AM
The link that RobReece put in the first post worked for me.

Well, this is more or less what I expected. Something to have the ball start running.
Specifics:
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Robreece
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The rest I frankly do not remember.

Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 01, 2025, 11:01:53 AM
The link that RobReece put in the first post worked for me.

Well, this is more or less what I expected. Something to have the ball start running.
Specifics:
[spoiler ]I am not sure how to say this, but it seems clumsy. Will disappeared without a word. Harry thinks he needed caffeine when he just got a coffe. I don't know, perhaps it is to show his turmoil [/spoiler]

Robreece
(click to show/hide)
The rest I frankly do not remember.

What I got wasn't the actual chapter, but "what to expect" in the book type thing, very general.

In answer to your one question, this is what I think;
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Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: LaraBeck on November 01, 2025, 01:18:59 PM
From that tidbit (chapter?), Dresden seems to be in far worse mental and emotional shape than he was in Christmas Eve.  Maybe Christmas Eve occurs after this tidbit?

We 100% know that Christmas Eve takes place after this, it's around Christmas on the same year Battle Grounds happens. And the book, Twelve Months takes place three weeks after Battle Ground, one week after the short story Little Things (from Toot toot's POV).

Well, this is more or less what I expected. Something to have the ball start running.
Specifics:
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

What I got wasn't the actual chapter, but "what to expect" in the book type thing, very general.

Huh, that's weird, the link should take you to Chapter 1, and it is indeed the full chapter. https://sites.prh.com/twelve-months-landing-page-aug-25?ref=PRHD99966B35334&aid=15745&linkid=PRHD99966B35334 (https://sites.prh.com/twelve-months-landing-page-aug-25?ref=PRHD99966B35334&aid=15745&linkid=PRHD99966B35334)
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Dina on November 01, 2025, 07:24:43 PM
Ugh, GS is one of the books I don't like as much.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: CrusherJen on November 02, 2025, 03:50:25 AM
To me, the excerpt feels true to the way someone deep in pain and grief would be thinking (or not thinking well), including the little inconsistencies.
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It sounds like this will be a painful book to read... but I'm too much of an addict to let it pass me by.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Dina on November 02, 2025, 08:12:11 PM
It sounds like this will be a painful book to read... but I'm too much of an addict to let it pass me by.

I agree, of course I will read it. But I think it will be difficult.
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Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 03, 2025, 01:28:50 PM

Thanks for the link Lara, that worked and I was able to read it, don't know why it didn't work before. 
Here are my impressions of the first chapter.

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Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: cander891 on November 03, 2025, 03:38:08 PM
I think some readers tend to forget that all of these books are technically Harry's Journals. He wrote them. So therefore there are going to be issues like this, especially someone who is impacted by this much trauma.

Additionally, it feeds into an ongoing theory that Harry is not a reliable narrator. This is something that pops up every now and again.

I also feel like the books are getting closer to (Harry's) present time. The early books often read like they are furtner in the past, while as we creep close the end, they feel more "current".

Just one mans opinion.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 03, 2025, 03:57:56 PM
I think some readers tend to forget that all of these books are technically Harry's Journals. He wrote them. So therefore there are going to be issues like this, especially someone who is impacted by this much trauma.

Additionally, it feeds into an ongoing theory that Harry is not a reliable narrator. This is something that pops up every now and again.

I also feel like the books are getting closer to (Harry's) present time. The early books often read like they are furtner in the past, while as we creep close the end, they feel more "current".

Just one mans opinion.

Oh what Harry is feeling in that chapter is very reliable and actually normal.  It would be worrisome if he wasn't feeling some of those emotions, how he learns to cope with it that is important.  Those flashbacks are real and they don't go away.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Dina on November 05, 2025, 02:58:42 AM
Quote
I think some readers tend to forget that all of these books are technically Harry's Journals. He wrote them. So therefore there are going to be issues like this, especially someone who is impacted by this much trauma.
Additionally, it feeds into an ongoing theory that Harry is not a reliable narrator. This is something that pops up every now and again.
I also feel like the books are getting closer to (Harry's) present time. The early books often read like they are furtner in the past, while as we creep close the end, they feel more "current".
Just one mans opinion.

That is the point. Harry is not a reliable narrator. We know that, at least since Shiela, his fire spells and, well, who hired the killer in Changes. But it is not always so clear when he is writing the files. He has been distressed before, but we had not seen him in writing. Like, we know when Susan happened he was a mess. He told us so. But his actual words were tidier and clearer than now.

BTW, Jim is already writing Mirror Mirror and I am happy to hear that, as I hope it is a funnier book. We know is necessary for Harry to live through the twelve months, but being with him won't be easy.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 05, 2025, 01:57:19 PM
Quote
That is the point. Harry is not a reliable narrator. We know that, at least since Shiela, his fire spells and, well, who hired the killer in Changes. But it is not always so clear when he is writing the files. He has been distressed before, but we had not seen him in writing. Like, we know when Susan happened he was a mess. He told us so. But his actual words were tidier and clearer than now

  I think it is safe to assume that three weeks after the events of Battleground that Harry is a mess. Paragraph one, he isn't sleeping, every time he closes his eyes he has flashbacks to Murphy's dying and dead face.  THAT IS REAL!  I've been through that both the grief and the trauma of seeing a loved one with in minutes of a violent death, believe me, you don't sleep and it plays back like a bad movie in your mind every time you close your eyes.  What ever happens in the rest of the story may or may not be reliable as far as Harry's narration goes, but THIS is accurate as to what he is experiencing in during this time. 

What is interesting in my opinion is the difference between his reaction to the death of Murphy verses Susan. 
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: LaraBeck on November 05, 2025, 06:33:25 PM
What is interesting in my opinion is the difference between his reaction to the death of Murphy verses Susan.

It is, that's one of the things that bothered me after Ghost Story, that we went to Harry staying on the island for 1+ year and then jump to Skin Game and we never see him deal with what happened with Susan.

I think what makes the difference (in part) are:
1. That the romantic relationship with Susan was long over, and it would have been anyway (by his own words) after she hid Maggie from him. His relationship with Murphy, however, at the time of her death, was his present, and also his future. He makes a point to say that he saw their future together die along with her. So, that would hit different. He had hopes with Murphy at the time her death happened.
2. Building on the previous point, the relationship with Susan was something that was the past, and it didn't work for one reason or the other. The relationship with Murphy was just starting out, it was full of expectations, he could still imagine/believe they would work. Loosing that is hard. (though, tbh, I felt Harry was pretty cold during what we saw in PT/BG about the relationship, like he was holding back a lot, but that's expected from a person with so much trauma around relationships).
3. He wasn't in love with Susan anymore. I dunno, he was more than ready to jump into bed with Murphy right after she died (which is kinda fucked up imo, but *shrug*).
4. Susan was in on what was about to happen, she (to some extent) consented to it in the moment, and it was a good cause, to save their child. Murphy, well, to be frank, she consented to the danger of it when she went out into the battlefield, but the moment itself is too sudden maybe?
5. As painful as it was, with Susan's death, Harry still won something, his daughter. He will always have Maggie thanks to Susan's sacrifice, and he has a part of her, even. He gained nothing from Murphy's death. You could argue that he's alive thanks to her, but in his mind that wouldn't count. And he has no children with Murphy, no piece of her left.

I think, the reason why Harry would grieve Murphy harder is because he was imagining a future, he had hope, he could believe that they had time to figure out and develop the relationship, but now her death robes them of that opportunity. With Susan, maybe he could file that under the "I already know it doesn't work", there's no hope there. Harry wasn't in love with Susan anymore.

Now, personally, I could add that Murphy is/was his greatest love, or at least, his more mature one, and that might play a part in his grief, too, in comparison to the death of Susan. I know it's canon that Harry and Susan shared true love, but if I'm judging from what I see, I don't buy it. I could buy the relationship with Murph as something more true.

Having said all that, I think Twelve Months is supposed to be about Harry doing the balance on all his loses, Jim said it was necessary, so we might see him dealing with Susan's death in this book too in other chapters.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Dina on November 06, 2025, 12:25:42 PM
Mira, I absolutely agree about the grief that Harry is living feeling realistic. I think you are using "reliable" in two different senses. One is, you can relate with the narrator. I totally agree with that. I had terrible grief moments myself. But I think most of us were talking about the term "reliable narrator", in the sense that if you can trust in what Harry told us. When Harry hallucinates, forgets something, and perhaps has been mentally affected, we as readers only have his words to go by. An objective narrator would have told us that Harry was talking alone in the bookstore, but Harry talk us how nice and pretty was Shiela. That is what we were talking about.

LaraBeck. I agree with what you said, but when I mentioned Harry's depression about Susan, I was talking about when she was bitten. Harry told us that he was a mess for a lot of time, but we barely see it on page.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 06, 2025, 01:34:05 PM
Mira, I absolutely agree about the grief that Harry is living feeling realistic. I think you are using "reliable" in two different senses. One is, you can relate with the narrator. I totally agree with that. I had terrible grief moments myself. But I think most of us were talking about the term "reliable narrator", in the sense that if you can trust in what Harry told us. When Harry hallucinates, forgets something, and perhaps has been mentally affected, we as readers only have his words to go by. An objective narrator would have told us that Harry was talking alone in the bookstore, but Harry talk us how nice and pretty was Shiela. That is what we were talking about.

LaraBeck. I agree with what you said, but when I mentioned Harry's depression about Susan, I was talking about when she was bitten. Harry told us that he was a mess for a lot of time, but we barely see it on page.

Dina, I disagree that Harry is unreliable as a narrator.  Why?  Because he is telling us his story as he saw it at the moment he saw it.  Yes, he could be very wrong about what he saw as in the case of Sheila, but he does go back and correct it when he finds out the truth.  That is presenting the whole picture, as it happens warts and all.  Mistakes and all, Harry presents it as he saw it at the time. 

I disagree that we barely saw Harry's depression on page at the beginning of Summer Knight after Susan got infected and left him.  It was on every page, his hygiene, the state of his apartment, going to a Council meeting in his bathrobe, because he didn't take care of his official robe and Mister threw hairballs up all over it, everyone from Lea to Murphy telling him he looked like warmed over crap!  More to the point, Harry didn't seem to care, wouldn't or was unable to do anything about it.  That screams clinical depression, Harry doesn't have to tell us he was going through a deep depression, he was describing it truthfully and reliably.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: RobReece on November 06, 2025, 05:59:56 PM
Hi Mira, I'm not so sure about when Harry is recording his experiences, is there anything to say that he writes them down on a regular basis?  I always figured that a significant amount of time had occurred between the experiences and when Harry writes his memoirs.

For instance,  he finishes the first book with the phrase
Quote
   My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. Conjure by it at your own risk. 
At that point, he really wasn't a threat to those who could summon him by his name, not like he is now or as he will continue to grow in strength.   
I always took that as an indication that he wrote these long after the event took place and that was why he'd be considered a unreliable narrator.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 06, 2025, 08:41:04 PM
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At that point, he really wasn't a threat to those who could summon him by his name, not like he is now or as he will continue to grow in strength.   
I always took that as an indication that he wrote these long after the event took place and that was why he'd be considered a unreliable narrator.

 However we don't know if he isn't keeping a journal, do we?  There is a hint that he is, not proof positive, but a hint.  The fact in Turn Coat when he is in Eb's quarters, and not only comes across Eb's journal, but journals handed from master to apprentice clear back to Merlin.  That means tradition, it also might mean it is the duty of a wizard to keep a journal.  To me that's a hint that more likely than not, Harry is also keeping a journal.  It's also in the name of the series, "The Dresden Files."  Files are something you keep records of your cases in.. If the series is a memoire, Harry is still using files or journals, not memory alone to write it. 

Quote
For instance,  he finishes the first book with the phrase
Quote
   My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. Conjure by it at your own risk.
At that point, he really wasn't a threat to those who could summon him by his name, not like he is now or as he will continue to grow in strength.   
I always took that as an indication that he wrote these long after the event took place and that was why he'd be considered a unreliable narrator.

Maybe, but if you will remember Harry had a pretty high opinion of himself, even in Storm Front and in Fool Moon he is very careful not to give his full name to Chauncy.  Harry knows that names have power, he knew this even as a young wizard, he had kicked butt and got out from under the Doom at the end of Storm Front, so feeling a little full of himself and young, he might dare you to conjour using his name.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: RobReece on November 06, 2025, 10:47:49 PM
Definitely maybe,

But will we ever know for sure

Lol
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Dina on November 06, 2025, 11:06:51 PM
Hi Mira
Well, effectively we disagree in the things you mentioned in your answer to me, but I completely agree with your response to RobReece about the files/journal.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: RobReece on November 07, 2025, 05:14:43 PM
Ouch, nobody likes me
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Dina on November 08, 2025, 09:20:33 AM
 ;D You may be on the right though, who knows?
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 08, 2025, 05:04:04 PM
Hi Mira
Well, effectively we disagree in the things you mentioned in your answer to me, but I completely agree with your response to RobReece about the files/journal.

 The thing is Dina, what Harry says he is going through happens three weeks or so out from the events of Battleground and Murphy's death.  THAT, is no time at all from the actual event of Murphy's death, what Harry describes is authentic on that level.
The debate on whether Harry is or isn't a reliable narrator can be left for another time, another book, other events, but what Harry says he is going through in chapter one of Twelve Months is authentic, even if he is writing it years after it happened, because after going though it, one doesn't forget or is mistaken on how one felt.   
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Dina on November 08, 2025, 10:08:18 PM
Yes, of course. His pain and state of mind are well written. I hope. The other option is that Jim's writing is a mess.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 09, 2025, 02:05:14 PM
Yes, of course. His pain and state of mind are well written. I hope. The other option is that Jim's writing is a mess.

That's true, but in this case he has it about right.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: g33k on November 10, 2025, 02:02:45 AM
Yes, of course. His pain and state of mind are well written. I hope. The other option is that Jim's writing is a mess. 

Harry is a mess.

Jim told us that he wasn't planning on 12M in his original plans, but has come to realize that he needs to write the process of Grieving Harry, Stressed-to-mental-unwellness Harry, PTSD Harry.  As Mira says, that's what we're reading... that's (very much, for very many who go through it) exactly what it's like.

I think Jim wasn't exactly clear how Harry sees things, how he acts, on the far side of that process.
Jim needed to write Harry's experience, to find out about Harry for the rest of the series.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 10, 2025, 01:30:19 PM
Harry is a mess.

Jim told us that he wasn't planning on 12M in his original plans, but has come to realize that he needs to write the process of Grieving Harry, Stressed-to-mental-unwellness Harry, PTSD Harry.  As Mira says, that's what we're reading... that's (very much, for very many who go through it) exactly what it's like.

I think Jim wasn't exactly clear how Harry sees things, how he acts, on the far side of that process.
Jim needed to write Harry's experience, to find out about Harry for the rest of the series.

Exactly, and this time Jim nailed it, at least for the first chapter.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: g33k on November 10, 2025, 02:47:02 PM
Exactly, and this time Jim nailed it, at least for the first chapter. 

I think so, too.

OTOH, it's noteworthy how many people -- in this thread! -- are reading the chapter and seeing "sloppy writing" as their first (or at least equally-likely) explanation.

I suspect the "general DF reading population" will have a similar experience.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 12, 2025, 02:14:34 PM


  One more point, the Micky Mouse alarm clock, maybe there is a very simple explanation, and the simplest one, is the true one .
  Instead of turning ourselves inside out as to how the clock could have survived the fire, and yes, these unlikely things happen in disasters, maybe Harry just went out and bought himself a new one?  They still make Micky Mouse alarm clocks and they are not all that expensive, even Harry can afford one.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: g33k on November 13, 2025, 12:26:16 AM
... how the clock could have survived the fire, and yes, these unlikely things happen in disasters

 maybe Harry just went out and bought himself a new one?  They still make Micky Mouse alarm clocks and they are not all that expensive, even Harry can afford one.
Both of these also occurred to me!
TBH, either seems an entirely-valid explanation within the context of the story.
Also, Molly might have got one, or one of the Alphas, or any other of his friends who had a chance to notice it.

Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Dina on November 13, 2025, 11:40:29 AM
I would like a short story about the cleaning system realizing there was a fire that could not been stopped and making the decision of saving as many small items as they can, knowing that the Za-Lord would appreciate that.  Harry repaid them with pizza and some extra bread and milk or whatever. It's only he had no time to write it in the Files.
BTW, perhaps that tells us when Harry is writing the Files. He would not write them while he has his cleaning service because that would be a risk, what if that is considered telling? He cannot tell anyone about them.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 13, 2025, 01:43:39 PM
I would like a short story about the cleaning system realizing there was a fire that could not been stopped and making the decision of saving as many small items as they can, knowing that the Za-Lord would appreciate that.  Harry repaid them with pizza and some extra bread and milk or whatever. It's only he had no time to write it in the Files.
BTW, perhaps that tells us when Harry is writing the Files. He would not write them while he has his cleaning service because that would be a risk, what if that is considered telling? He cannot tell anyone about them.

The thing is, Harry never says it's his old clock.  Could be, could be that it was salvaged and stored by maybe Mab who knew Harry was only mostly dead.  Or was kept by someone wanting a keepsake, i.e. Molly because she thinks he is dead, or even Murphy.  Or because he identifies with the Micky Mouse clock for what ever reason, or just likes them, Harry bought a new one.  However whether it is the original or not, isn't all that important.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on November 13, 2025, 09:37:23 PM
Just a head's up, I'm not putting spoilers on anything.

One statement; well actually two, that Harry makes that I found interesting was Harry's understanding or need to maintain a schedule to keep some kind of grip on himself.  I think this can come from two sources.  One was how Harry fell apart after Susan was infected by the Red Court.  Harry was a complete mess at the beginning and through much of Summer Knight.  He doesn't want to fall into that pattern again.  The second source that drives Harry is he is a father and recognizes his responsibility to Maggie, but he has also taken on other responsibilities as a protector of people around him.  Being the Wizard of Chicago, whatever that will come to mean.  I know from my own experience that focusing on a job at hand, putting food on the table and carrying out other responsibilities; while it doesn't help you heal from a tragedy, it can help prevent you from sliding further into despair, at least to a degree.

The second statement was that Harry recognizes that he will heal because he has done so before.  At the same time, even though Harry knows he will recover, it doesn't make what he is going through any easier.  Grief, and beating yourself up, wondering about what you could have done differently, are an incredible bitch to get through, as many of you know.  Harry doesn't wonder what he could have done differently in this chapter, but he always does that and there is no reason to think he won't do so again.

For those reasons I found this chapter to be spot on.  About the alarm clock, there are multiple possible answers to that one.  He bought a new one, someone else got Harry a new one, the old one had been down in the basement lab and without thinking Harry threw it in with his other stuff that he buried in Lea's garden, the when police and FBI invaded his place in Changes.  In fact, Lea should have returned all of that other stuff to Harry by now.  It's a very small issue, both literally and figurately, to concern me.

Side note: I have a feeling we may get another chapter or two pre-released before the book arrives.  Jim is pretty good at writing set up chapters that won't spoil the rest of the book if you read them early.  I won't be surprised if these preview chapters end just before Harry's first date with Lara.  I remember that for Cold Days we received several early release chapters the ended just before Harry's birthday party started in Arctis Tor. 
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Dina on November 14, 2025, 03:42:38 AM
I agree with all your statements.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 14, 2025, 03:40:01 PM
Quote
One statement; well actually two, that Harry makes that I found interesting was Harry's understanding or need to maintain a schedule to keep some kind of grip on himself.  I think this can come from two sources.  One was how Harry fell apart after Susan was infected by the Red Court.  Harry was a complete mess at the beginning and through much of Summer Knight.  He doesn't want to fall into that pattern again.  The second source that drives Harry is he is a father and recognizes his responsibility to Maggie, but he has also taken on other responsibilities as a protector of people around him.  Being the Wizard of Chicago, whatever that will come to mean.  I know from my own experience that focusing on a job at hand, putting food on the table and carrying out other responsibilities; while it doesn't help you heal from a tragedy, it can help prevent you from sliding further into despair, at least to a degree.

I think your last sentence is more to the point, any one of us who has been though the experience knows this.  The world moves on whether one likes it or not, and isn't going to wait on you.  You either keep going or be left behind, it may not help you heal from a tragedy, but it gives you something else to hang on to besides your pain and that helps.

Quote
The second statement was that Harry recognizes that he will heal because he has done so before.  At the same time, even though Harry knows he will recover, it doesn't make what he is going through any easier.  Grief, and beating yourself up, wondering about what you could have done differently, are an incredible bitch to get through, as many of you know.  Harry doesn't wonder what he could have done differently in this chapter, but he always does that and there is no reason to think he won't do so again.

Still early in the process, it is a bitch to get through, and can still rear it's ugly head years later.  However as time goes on, it gets easier to cope with what happened and hopefully forgive himself and the dead.  So yeah, I also expect Harry will have PTSD flashbacks until the end of the series, but as he heals he will finally accept to some degree.

Quote
For those reasons I found this chapter to be spot on.  About the alarm clock, there are multiple possible answers to that one.  He bought a new one, someone else got Harry a new one, the old one had been down in the basement lab and without thinking Harry threw it in with his other stuff that he buried in Lea's garden, the when police and FBI invaded his place in Changes.  In fact, Lea should have returned all of that other stuff to Harry by now.  It's a very small issue, both literally and figurately, to concern me.

Totally agree.

Quote
Side note: I have a felling we may get another chapter or two preleased before the book arrives.  Jim is pretty good at writing set up chapters that won't spoil the rest of the book if you read them early.  I won't be surprised if these preview chapters end just before Harry's first date with Lara.  I remember that for Cold Days we received several early release chapters the ended just before Harry's birthday party started in Arctis Tor.

I think what will ultimately make or break the relationship is how Lara handles Harry's grief.  It's more complicated then you think, good intentions are not enough, timing is important, where the person on the scale of the receiving end of the process is important, and what may seem like the right thing to say or do for someone, could be taken totally wrong by the one grieving.. Conversely Lara may have to cut Harry a lot more slack than she is used to, because his responses may not seem rational, could even be offensive.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on November 15, 2025, 07:52:37 AM
I think what will ultimately make or break the relationship is how Lara handles Harry's grief.  It's more complicated then you think, good intentions are not enough, timing is important, where the person on the recieving end of the process is important, and what may seem like the right thing to say or do could be taken totally wrong by the one grieving.. Conversely Lara may have to cut Harry a lot more slack than she is used to, because his responses may not seem rational, could even be offensive.

I hadn't thought about how Lara will react to Harry dealing with grief, other than trying to use it to gain some kind of advantage over him.  Lara is the closest thing to being immortal as a flesh and blood being can get.  Though she can be killed, she barely ages.  I wonder if she has ever felt grief herself.   

Do White Court vamps ever feel and suffer through grief in their own extended lives?  To feel grief you probably have to have empathy, otherwise you wouldn't feel anything.  But most White Court vamps seem to revel in their own psychopathy, if the conversations we've he have heard with Lord Raith, Madeline Raith, Madrigal Raith and Vito Malvora are any indication.  Empathy just isn't their thing.

Lara is smarter than the average bear, which means she should have a greater understanding of what Harry is going through; at least on an intellectual basis.  Lara might also be a little closer to having a normal personality than most white court vampires, though only by a tiny sliver.  Thomas is the real outlier in his family in this regard.

So I think I agree with you Mira.  The way Lara reacts to Harry's grief should be very important in shaping how their relationship will progress.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 15, 2025, 12:41:49 PM
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I hadn't thought about how Lara will react to Harry dealing with grief, other than trying to use it to gain some kind of advantage over him.  Lara is the closest thing to being immortal as a flesh and blood being can get.  Though she can be killed, she barely ages.  I wonder if she has ever felt grief herself.   

She feels something for Thomas, if one can judge by her reactions in Peace Talks.

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Do White Court vamps ever feel and suffer through grief in their own extended lives?  To feel grief you probably have to have empathy, otherwise you wouldn't feel anything.  But most White Court vamps seem to revel in their own psychopathy, if the conversations we've he have heard with Lord Raith, Madeline Raith, Madrigal Raith and Vito Malvora are any indication.  Empathy just isn't their thing.

You also need to be able to love.  The White Court feeds on emotion, is also burned by it, Harry's searing grief may make their relationship impossible.

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Lara is smarter than the average bear, which means she should have a greater understanding of what Harry is going through; at least on an intellectual basis.  Lara might also be a little closer to having a normal personality than most white court vampires, though only by a tiny sliver.  Thomas is the real outlier in his family in this regard.

Yeah, but grief isn't something you can intellectualize, it comes from the gut in a torrent of emotions.  She might be able to feed off of them and give him relief in that way.. Or his grief is so powerful it potentually could burn her to ashes.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: g33k on November 15, 2025, 06:20:19 PM
I expect the Winter-knight X Whamp-princess engagement to bring Harry & Lara closer together...

Not because either of them want it, but because they need a closer alliance to figure out how to wiggle out from under Mab's edict.

How that all plays with PTSD-Harry, I'm unclear.

... The White Court feeds on emotion, is also burned by it, Harry's searing grief may make their relationship impossible ...
Each Whamp has particular hunger/weakness pairing, and they don't really interact with other emotions.
Raith hungers for Lust, but is burned by Love.

So far as we know, Skavis(despair/hope) & Malvora(fear/courage) get nothing from Lust, nor do they suffer from Love.

None, so far as I know, interact directly with grief... though maybe in the Dresden'verse grief has "despair-adjacent" qualities?
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 16, 2025, 01:49:55 PM
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Each Whamp has particular hunger/weakness pairing, and they don't really interact with other emotions.
Raith hungers for Lust, but is burned by Love.

So far as we know, Skavis(despair/hope) & Malvora(fear/courage) get nothing from Lust, nor do they suffer from Love.

None, so far as I know, interact directly with grief... though maybe in the Dresden'verse grief has "despair-adjacent" qualities?

I said emotions, I am aware that certain branches of the White Court feed off of different emotions.  Lara's branch happens to feed off of love and passion.  Love isn't simple as you know, and actually we do have a hint.  In White Knight Harry's lips still burn Lara years after his break up with Susan.  It says that Harry didn't get over Susan, he hasn't tried to be with anyone else since, he still grieves for their break up.  He isn't going to get over his loss of Murphy that quickly if ever. 

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I expect the Winter-knight X Whamp-princess engagement to bring Harry & Lara closer together...

Not because either of them want it, but because they need a closer alliance to figure out how to wiggle out from under Mab's edict.

That might be their plan, but I doubt that it will be that simple or that Mab will be fooled by it.  It may be another of her not all that transparent plans to take either or both Harry and Lara down at least a peg.  You can bet that Mab has a plan, and it isn't what she claims, a stronger alliance between the Winter Court and the White Court. 
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: g33k on November 16, 2025, 04:40:21 PM
... That might be their plan, but I doubt that it will be that simple or that Mab will be fooled by it ...
Of course it won't be easy, and of course it won't fool Mab!
But IMO Mab doesn't want the marriage to go through:  she wants things that she expects to happen during the engagement.

So long as they show no overt disrespect to the Queen of Air and Darkness, Mab will be 100% satisfied with them not getting married.

I'm sure she has contingencies for if the marriage does take place, too.

... It may be another of her not all that transparent plans to take either or both Harry and Lara down at least a peg.  You can bet that Mab has a plan, and it isn't what she claims, a stronger alliance between the Winter Court and the White Court.
I'm pretty sure that Mab is pretty sure that there is some locus of Nemfection in the White Court, and that she intends to hit it with a "patented Harry Dresden anarchygasm" boosted by Winterknight steroids.

Incidentally, she forces Harry (yet again) to operate with an uncomfortable ally, to do diplomatic & social things, etc -- weaknesses of Harry's, that Mab is working to strengthen.

Also, Papa Raith has a substantial library around the Starborn cycle & current iteration of the apocalyptic Outsider invasion, and I'm sure Mab has more than an inkling of that... and that getting access to it for her Starborn Winterknight will substantially bolster his Outsider-fighting ability.

If they do get married, I expect the consummation to turn violent (and Harry will kill Lara):  WoJ has stated that Whampire-Mojo and the Winterknight-mantle interact in explosive and uncontrollable ways.

Mab will put success on any of these fronts into her "Win" column, and I 110% expect that she has other agendas I haven't spotted.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Dina on November 16, 2025, 08:25:26 PM
 ::) Oh, just what Harry needs. To kill another sexual partner.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Snark Knight on November 17, 2025, 04:02:48 AM
I hadn't thought about how Lara will react to Harry dealing with grief, other than trying to use it to gain some kind of advantage over him.  Lara is the closest thing to being immortal as a flesh and blood being can get.  Though she can be killed, she barely ages.  I wonder if she has ever felt grief herself.   
Do White Court vamps ever feel and suffer through grief in their own extended lives?  To feel grief you probably have to have empathy, otherwise you wouldn't feel anything.  But most White Court vamps seem to revel in their own psychopathy, if the conversations we've he have heard with Lord Raith, Madeline Raith, Madrigal Raith and Vito Malvora are any indication.  Empathy just isn't their thing.

I think she'd probably say she grieved some of the half-brothers their father killed before they could become competition.  Then again, she was ready to, with obvious reluctance, follow his order to kill Thomas too.  She may also have been to one degree or another somewhat fond of some some of the people she's consumed, though obviously short of true love - perhaps enough to regret "how it has to be", but not much more than that.  So whatever she felt and would self-describe as grief was probably *very* muted, compared to messy human emotions.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 17, 2025, 12:43:19 PM
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If they do get married, I expect the consummation to turn violent (and Harry will kill Lara):  WoJ has stated that Whampire-Mojo and the Winterknight-mantle interact in explosive and uncontrollable ways.

Or Mab is secretly hoping that Lara will kill Harry.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: g33k on November 17, 2025, 03:03:26 PM
Or Mab is secretly hoping that Lara will kill Harry.
No, Mab has been spending a lot of her time and energy on building up Harry.

Remember, Mab is the commander-in-chief of the armies of the Outer Gates, and has been for most of 1000 years; the wheels are turning and the cycles coming 'round, and a Big Apocalyptic event with Outsiders is coming.  And there's nobody in the mortal realm ("mortal" being a necessity for the WK role) who can do the whole "Outsider fighting" gig like a Starborn.

Mab needs to forge Harry to be as good a weapon as possible, and she's harsh with him because she sees that harshness as the best way to weaponize him.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 18, 2025, 02:02:00 PM
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No, Mab has been spending a lot of her time and energy on building up Harry.

Remember, Mab is the commander-in-chief of the armies of the Outer Gates, and has been for most of 1000 years; the wheels are turning and the cycles coming 'round, and a Big Apocalyptic event with Outsiders is coming.  And there's nobody in the mortal realm ("mortal" being a necessity for the WK role) who can do the whole "Outsider fighting" gig like a Starborn.

Mab needs to forge Harry to be as good a weapon as possible, and she's harsh with him because she sees that harshness as the best way to weaponize him.

I am not so sure, Mab may begin to see Harry as a threat, especially allied with Molly. And don't think she didn't take note, like the White Council did, that Harry has his own pixie army loyal to him and that they can do plenty of damage.  Lara would also make an excellent Winter Knight, while she might want some independence, she doesn't have the moral qualms that Harry has, making her maybe more useful to Mab.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: g33k on November 19, 2025, 01:27:17 AM
I am not so sure, Mab may begin to see Harry as a threat, especially allied with Molly ...
I suspect Mab of having the kind of monomaniacal fanaticism that puts "personal survival" somewhere below her own top-3 priorities.  By her lights, any Winterfae who can take her out deserve to inherit the Queen of Air and Darkness' mantle, and she hopes they are at least as innovative & tricky in fighting the Outsiders as they were in killing her...

... And don't think she didn't take note, like the White Council did, that Harry has his own pixie army loyal to him and that they can do plenty of damage ...
It's questionable how much they can actually oppose Mab.  Between CD & SG, Mab subverted all the Pixie-borne messengers Harry tried to send to Molly (trying to get Molly's help with "the parasite").

Of course Mab absolutely noticed Harry taking down Aurora via Pixie warband; she will have immediately developed countermeasures for that, and anything derivative (such as Captain Hook's nail javelins); also their work intercepting Ethniu's kamikazes on the castle-roof, and more.

Mab has been living and breathing Winterfae tactics & strategies for over a thousand years, so even if Harry comes up with novelties, she will adapt incredibly-quickly (and she has an incredibly-deep playbook to draw upon).
 
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Dina on November 19, 2025, 11:32:47 AM
I think Mab actually treasures Harry. She does not want to show it, of course, but I think she does.  Besides I believe they are growing closer, somewhat understanding each other. When they met, Harry says that Mab is too alien to understand but I do not think that is still true for him. Also, personal opinion here, some of you probably remember my old theory. Someday Mab is going to ask Harry to kill her. It will backfire because at the time Harr y will love her (not as a romantic partner!) and so he will be free of the WK work while still having his healthy spine.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 19, 2025, 01:03:08 PM
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It's questionable how much they can actually oppose Mab.  Between CD & SG, Mab subverted all the Pixie-borne messengers Harry tried to send to Molly (trying to get Molly's help with "the parasite").

As has been noted, Toot is getting larger and shouldn't be underestimated.  Mab won't.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Dina on November 20, 2025, 11:51:11 AM
In my opinion, Mab will only encourage her Knight. The wild folk are loyal to him, not just because they are fae and are forced to pay their debts. They are truly loyal. And Mab knows what difficult that is. If she loses Harry, she will loose that. She will prefer to exploit him. Also, Harry did that without being ordered or prompted. It is who he is. And Mab knows that could be the gift that keeps given.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Mira on November 20, 2025, 12:53:43 PM
In my opinion, Mab will only encourage her Knight. The wild folk are loyal to him, not just because they are fae and are forced to pay their debts. They are truly loyal. And Mab knows what difficult that is. If she loses Harry, she will loose that. She will prefer to exploit him. Also, Harry did that without being ordered or prompted. It is who he is. And Mab knows that could be the gift that keeps given.

Or a threat, especially if you add Molly into the mix.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: Dina on November 22, 2025, 08:41:26 AM
A potential threat, yes. Which, in my opinion, is something Mab sees as a good thing.
Title: Re: Twelve Months, chapter one
Post by: g33k on November 23, 2025, 08:14:53 PM
A potential threat, yes. Which, in my opinion, is something Mab sees as a good thing.
Yes;  ^^^this^^^ !!
Mab is absolutely a "keep your friends close... and your enemies closer" kind of girly!

In particular, I recall the WoJ which stated that -- back in the day -- Mab chose Lea as her handmaiden because she saw Lea as the most-powerful rival / threat amongst all the potential Winterfae for the role.

Mab wanted Lea as a "whetstone" to keep herself always sharpened to her own keenest edge.