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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: EBRIEN on June 07, 2025, 01:43:59 AM
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Continuing my re read of the Files. Good stuff. Previously, and I'm not sure why, GS never seems to stick with me for some reason. I've both read and listened to it. It's the odd one for me in the series. This time, it feels much better to me. Not sure if I'm just in the right mindset or what, but details are really sticking and I'm nearly done and I can't wait until the end and maybe restart it.
1st--Am I the only one who feels this way? Or out of all the novels, is this the one that doesn't hit a homeroom initially and you have to come back to it?
2nd--Harry as the Winter Knight. As a spirit, should Harry have been able to draw upon Winter? I mean, he was able to capitalize on his magical memories and use them as weapons...shouldn't he have been able to do the same with Winter? (And maybe even more so and to a more dramatic effect?)
Ok. Cheers and best to everyone!
B
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I agree that Ghost Story was the odd story out for me. I read it when I first came out and then didn't touch it again for a long time. I just kept reading around it. I think part of that was due to it being so different narratively speaking. We don't see the typical Harry kicking butt and taking names. Another part of it being odd was that in a way nothing changed. Yes, Harry learned some things, but it was just a bridge to get him from his death to the Winter Knight arc. It didn't help that outside of one bit of dialogue in Cold Days and another small bit in Skin Game (both with Butters I believe), there really has not been much mention of the events of GS by the characters.
That being said, it has grown on me. I now see it as a refreshing change of pace from the other stories. I have come to like the introspection and Harry digging deeper into himself. Ghost Story is part of the reason I am excited for Twelve Months. I'm hoping we get another character piece as opposed to an action piece.
As to your second question, as I understand it, Harry was drawing on his memories to act upon the world. He was only able to interact within the sphere of how he remembered acting. Since he had not done any work really as the Winter Knight, he did not have any memories to draw upon to fuel Winter Knight-like actions.
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I think as one goes back and rereads books in a series, stuff that may not move when first read, hits home on the reread. Why because we see the character in the now, and going back to the earlier books we see how and understand why they became.
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GS took me a while to come to grips with it, but I did so by about 1/3 - 1/2 way through, and enjoyed the rest (and all of each re-read) very much.
2nd--Harry as the Winter Knight. As a spirit, should Harry have been able to draw upon Winter? I mean, he was able to capitalize on his magical memories and use them as weapons...shouldn't he have been able to do the same with Winter? (And maybe even more so and to a more dramatic effect?)
I think Winter -- or at least the Winter Knight -- is very physical, very embodied, very animal.
Winter has very little traction with a ghost/soul.
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GS took me a while to come to grips with it, but I did so by about 1/3 - 1/2 way through, and enjoyed the rest (and all of each re-read) very much.
I think Winter is very physical, very embodied, very animal.
Winter has very little traction with a ghost/soul.
The human soul is out of Mab's jurisdiction, free will win the day..
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GS took me a while to come to grips with it, but I did so by about 1/3 - 1/2 way through, and enjoyed the rest (and all of each re-read) very much.
I think Winter -- or at least the Winter Knight -- is very physical, very embodied, very animal.
Winter has very little traction with a ghost/soul.
Agreed. I would add that Winter is about the primal urges. A ghost transcends the physical and the primal urges no longer impact it.
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When Harry wasn't quite dead...Would Papa Wraith have been able to feed? Or feel twinges of his former self?
Can you imagine? He's like...Ummm...that's a familiar feeling...Could it be? Maybe? .....crap. Nope.
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When Harry wasn't quite dead...Would Papa Wraith have been able to feed? Or feel twinges of his former self?
Can you imagine? He's like...Ummm...that's a familiar feeling...Could it be? Maybe? .....crap. Nope.
Since it was Margaret's death curse that caused Papa Raith not to feed, I don't think it makes any difference whether Harry is alive or dead or only mostly dead, Papa Raith won't be able to feed.
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Since it was Margaret's death curse that caused Papa Raith not to feed, I don't think it makes any difference whether Harry is alive or dead or only mostly dead, Papa Raith won't be able to feed.
IIRC, Papa thought that sacrificing Harry and/or Thomas was the way to escape Margaret's curse.
I presume he had some reason to think so... and he may even have been correct (or may not have been; I don't think anyone but Jim understands the Dresdenverse magical metaphysics well enough to know).
However, Harry's semideath -- years later, outside of Raith's careful ritual prep, and metaphysically as Harry's self-sacrifice (made for love) -- almost certainly wouldn't have fulfilled Raith's needs in this regard.
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IIRC, Papa thought that sacrificing Harry and/or Thomas was the way to escape Margaret's curse.
If Papa Raith thought it would work, he could have sacrificed one of them at any time, especially Thomas.
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If Papa Raith thought it would work, he could have sacrificed one of them at any time, especially Thomas.
I'd need to re-read that whole scene.
It may have been quite a while before he "learned" about this; and it may only have been a "potential" method that "might" work, but I think he was pretty desperate, and would take even a long-shot chance.
But also: Raith Père was working with Outsider magic. So this may have been information fed to him by them, with dubious correctness.
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I'd need to re-read that whole scene.
It may have been quite a while before he "learned" about this; and it may only have been a "potential" method that "might" work, but I think he was pretty desperate, and would take even a long-shot chance.
But also: Raith Père was working with Outsider magic. So this may have been information fed to him by them, with dubious correctness.
I have to reread the scene as well. Actually the whole book because I imagine there are a lot of clues as to what is going on now in it.
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... Actually the whole bookseries because I imagine there are a lot of clues as to what is going on now in it.
Fixed it for ya!
;D
Jim has been gleefully planting valid hints & easter-eggs alongside red-herrings falsities, and occasional retcon-fodder, from the very beginning. There are clues throughout the entire series.
Harry&co's recent discovery/hypothesis, that there's an actual angel inside each Sword of the Cross, is foreshadowed by there being a Fallen inside each Blackened Denarius; that's like... a 10-book(?) payoff from 1st-hint to Grand Reveal.
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Harry&co's recent discovery/hypothesis, that there's an actual angel inside each Sword of the Cross, is foreshadowed by there being a Fallen inside each Blackened Denarius; that's like... a 10-book(?) payoff from 1st-hint to Grand Reveal.
I think the idea that there is a Fallen Angel trapped inside each Blackened Denarius was pretty well established by the end of Death Masks, which is what? Book five?
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Ref: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50842.msg2302007.html#msg2302007
A while ago I posted in another thread that Lord Raith did not know Harry and Thomas were brothers before Blood Rites.
So, it might be he knew about the curse, but was told that only killing Thomas would not be enough to end it. That might be why he delayed killing Thomas. Also, some of the things Lord Raith forced Thomas to do looked like he was trying to get Thomas killed in a way that he would not be blamed for.
APG
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Ref: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50842.msg2302007.html#msg2302007
A while ago I posted in another thread that Lord Raith did not know Harry and Thomas were brothers before Blood Rites.
So, it might be he knew about the curse, but was told that only killing Thomas would not be enough to end it. That might be why he delayed killing Thomas. Also, some of the things Lord Raith forced Thomas to do looked like he was trying to get Thomas killed in a way that he would not be blamed for.
APG
The curse is tied to Marge sr bloodline. I think all her living descendants feed it
There is a fridge horror theory that in White nights after killing Harry and Thomas. He still would be unable to feed so he would start killing the women that thomas and harry have been with and their kids. At this point little Marge was born but he didnt know about her
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Ref: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50842.msg2302007.html#msg2302007
A while ago I posted in another thread that Lord Raith did not know Harry and Thomas were brothers before Blood Rites.
So, it might be he knew about the curse, but was told that only killing Thomas would not be enough to end it. That might be why he delayed killing Thomas. Also, some of the things Lord Raith forced Thomas to do looked like he was trying to get Thomas killed in a way that he would not be blamed for.
APG
I kind of remember that also from the book, however I find it odd that he wasn't aware that Margaret was about to give birth or had just given birth when he killed her. Also it is strange that he wouldn't have kept track of that baby for fear of revenge someday. Also since he managed to murder the male siblings of Thomas and it seems no secret that he did, why would Raith worry if he got blamed or not? After all if he got his power to feed back it would all have been worth it.
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I kind of remember that also from the book, however I find it odd that he wasn't aware that Margaret was about to give birth or had just given birth when he killed her. Also it is strange that he wouldn't have kept track of that baby for fear of revenge someday. Also since he managed to murder the male siblings of Thomas and it seems no secret that he did, why would Raith worry if he got blamed or not? After all if he got his power to feed back it would all have been worth it.
I kind of remember that also from the book, however I find it odd that he wasn't aware that Margaret was about to give birth or had just given birth when he killed her. Also it is strange that he wouldn't have kept track of that baby for fear of revenge someday. Also since he managed to murder the male siblings of Thomas and it seems no secret that he did, why would Raith worry if he got blamed or not? After all if he got his power to feed back it would all have been worth it.
The way i see it is that the white courts way of killing opponents is to do it in a way that everyone knows its probably you but have no way of proving its you. Sort of like the coups and wars from the cold war. Everyone knew who was backing who but everyone pretended otherwise.
Killing Thomas openly would lose Papa Raith face. Its saying that Thomas was strong enough to make him show his hand which is bad for his image.
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The way i see it is that the white courts way of killing opponents is to do it in a way that everyone knows its probably you but have no way of proving its you. Sort of like the coups and wars from the cold war. Everyone knew who was backing who but everyone pretended otherwise.
Killing Thomas openly would lose Papa Raith face. Its saying that Thomas was strong enough to make him show his hand which is bad for his image.
Who says it has to be openly? He could have just killed Thomas like he did his brothers, he didn't lose any face over that. Thomas was just a little more clever than his brothers and avoided it.
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I am not sure that is what happened. I mean, yes, obviously by pretending to be Clark Kent he convinced his dad he was harmless, but I think there is a point in Wraith pretending to care for having a Heir. So, for Papa Wraith there was some benefit in keeping one son. Politics. Somehow, male vampire have survived, there was not only one male for family. I have the feeling it was good for a family to have some male.
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Lord Raith knew that Maggie Sr put a death curse on him. I think he was aware that he needed to kill her sons in order to free himself. He may not have known for sure who Harry was. In the Micro Fiction Journal, Morgan wrote that after Malcom's death Justin got to Harry and made him disappear physically, magically, and bureaucratically. Raith may not have been able to find Harry after that. One of the reasons he might have kept Thomas alive was to serve as bait hoping that his brother would come find him. I also agree that there might have been some politics in there about having a male heir. That being said, IIRC, at some point Thomas states that his dad keeps sending him on missions hoping he will die. The White Court works through cat paws, killing Thomas directly (even if he disappeared) would be seen as a sign of weakness. Lord Raith wasn't able to deal with his son indirectly. Having him die of his own stupidity would work much better for Lord Raith. The problem is that Thomas was hiding his power and knowledge and kept on surviving.
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I agree with Raith trying to kill Thomas indirectly but I am not sure Raith knows that Margaret fueled the spell with her blood lineage. Otherwise I think he would have killed Thomas. I do not know if he knew Margaret had another son.
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I think the idea that there is a Fallen Angel trapped inside each Blackened Denarius was pretty well established by the end of Death Masks, which is what? Book five?
Yes, that's the seed planted.
That the Swords are the same thing -- being their exact opposite -- is (in retrospect) obviously-implied.
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I agree with Raith trying to kill Thomas indirectly but I am not sure Raith knows that Margaret fueled the spell with her blood lineage. Otherwise I think he would have killed Thomas. I do not know if he knew Margaret had another son.
I agree, I don't think Raith knows how Margaret fueled her death curse. If it were as simple as her bloodline, then it makes no sense not to just kill Thomas.. If Raith can still breed, he could still get a male heir.. I also doubt that he hadn't kept track of Margaret's younger child, and one wonders why he didn't arrange for young Harry's death at some point as well.
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I agree, I don't think Raith knows how Margaret fueled her death curse. If it were as simple as her bloodline, then it makes no sense not to just kill Thomas.. If Raith can still breed, he could still get a male heir.. I also doubt that he hadn't kept track of Margaret's younger child, and one wonders why he didn't arrange for young Harry's death at some point as well.
Raith states in Blood Rites that he worked out what Margaret Sr did. We don't know when he worked it out, only that he knows.
Lord Raith is running on an empty tank constantly. He is not able to feed deeply to replenish himself. He would not be up to a prolonged physical battle. Thomas could draw upon his hunger to heal far more often that Lord Raith can. Thus, Raith avoided any direct confrontation with his son. He can't just walk up to him and kill him because Thomas could potential heal and overcome him. He can't do anything to overt to kill Thomas like have in his own household becuase if Thomas dies under his roof (violence, poison, etc) then Lord Raith looks weak for not protecting his family. If he tries something violent outside the home (ex drive by shooting) and he fails then Thomas might come gunning for him or if he succeeds and it is traced back to him he looks weak because he didn't kill Thomas subtly. Subtle behind the scene machinations is what the White Court is supposed to excel in. Anything too overt and Lord Raith looks weak and there may be a coup. That is why he sends Thomas on dangerous missions such as the White Court representative to The Red Court party hoping that Thomas' perceived incompetence will get him killed. I still think that one of the reasons Lord Raith kept Thomas alive was to draw his brother out so that he could be more easily disposed of.
As far as Harry goes, we do not know at what point Lord Raith discovered that he was the son of Maggie Sr. He most likely knew that she had another son, but Maggie had left him before she had Harry. I'm sure she took steps to protect Harry and Malcom. Even if Lord Raith was trying to follow her trail to find Harry, we know that Justin made Harry disappear when Malcom died and then he was on Eb's farm under the eye of the Blackstaff. By the time Harry reappeared in the public eye when he set up shop in Chicago he was several steps removed from his previous life.
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... I kind of remember that also from the book, however I find it odd that he wasn't aware that Margaret was about to give birth or had just given birth when he killed her ...
I don't think he knew where she was; if he had, he'd likely have killed her more-directly, and sooner.
I've got a theory that the curse that killed her had been lurking for a while:
Margaret made a deal (with the Leanansidhe) for the protection of her baby. She died the moment Harry was born... "just like magic."
Harry inside Margaret, before birth, means Margaret herself was also protected; but the instant his life was no longer tied to her (I presume cutting the umbilicus) Lea's protections upon Harry no longer protected Margaret, and the entropy-curse killed her.
Which, in turn, implies that the curse was just lurking, waiting until the protective Veil was lifted (not cast then to kill then).
Though of course it's also possible that Lea had previously let Raith know that Margaret had an impenetrable protection, but that it would be ending "soon," and that she explicitly tattled to Raith when it did; far better for her twisted Faerie Godmother Complex to get rid of the parent(s)!
I'm pretty certain Lea was involved in either Margaret's death, or Malcolm's, or both.
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I don't think he knew where she was; if he had, he'd likely have killed her more-directly, and sooner.
I've got a theory that the curse that killed her had been lurking for a while:
Margaret made a deal (with the Leanansidhe) for the protection of her baby. She died the moment Harry was born... "just like magic."
Harry inside Margaret, before birth, means Margaret herself was also protected; but the instant his life was no longer tied to her (I presume cutting the umbilicus) Lea's protections upon Harry no longer protected Margaret, and the entropy-curse killed her.
Which, in turn, implies that the curse was just lurking, waiting until the protective Veil was lifted (not cast then to kill then).
Though of course it's also possible that Lea had previously let Raith know that Margaret had an impenetrable protection, but that it would be ending "soon," and that she explicitly tattled to Raith when it did; far better for her twisted Faerie Godmother Complex to get rid of the parent(s)!
I'm pretty certain Lea was involved in either Margaret's death, or Malcolm's, or both.
I have a crazy theory that Margie Sr knew she was going to die, sooner or later. So the theory that the spell was hanging over her makes sense to me. So her deal to protect harry could have included her surviving to raise her.Considering the la fey nickname she could have made a better deal than the one she made. But i think for some reason she knew she wasn't the right person to raise Harry. Or she knew that Her enemies not just lord raith would not rest until she was dead. So she decided her death was best for Harry.
On the other hand, its selfish of her to give birth to harry at all
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I have a crazy theory that Margie Sr knew she was going to die, sooner or later. So the theory that the spell was hanging over her makes sense to me. So her deal to protect harry could have included her surviving to raise her.Considering the la fey nickname she could have made a better deal than the one she made. But i think for some reason she knew she wasn't the right person to raise Harry. Or she knew that Her enemies not just lord raith would not rest until she was dead. So she decided her death was best for Harry.
On the other hand, its selfish of her to give birth to harry at all
Actually I think you are pretty close to the truth. I think Margaret knew she was a dead woman walking the moment she left Lord Raith. I think she did plan on birthing a star baby after she met Malcolm, and planned out how to keep it safe with Mab and Lea.. I think what is going to really piss Harry off is the bargain Margaret made with Mab, i.e. that the child would grow up to be Mab's knight among other things.
No, I don't think it was selfish for Margaret to give birth to Harry, she didn't do it for herself.
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I have a crazy theory that Margie Sr knew she was going to die, sooner or later. So the theory that the spell was hanging over her makes sense to me. So her deal to protect harry could have included her surviving to raise her. Considering the la fey nickname she could have made a better deal than the one she made. But i think for some reason she knew she wasn't the right person to raise Harry. Or she knew that Her enemies not just lord raith would not rest until she was dead. So she decided her death was best for Harry.
On the other hand, its selfish of her to give birth to harry at all
Actually I think you are pretty close to the truth. I think Margaret knew she was a dead woman walking the moment she left Lord Raith. I think she did plan on birthing a star baby after she met Malcolm, and planned out how to keep it safe with Mab and Lea.. I think what is going to really piss Harry off is the bargain Margaret made with Mab, i.e. that the child would grow up to be Mab's knight among other things.
No, I don't think it was selfish for Margaret to give birth to Harry, she didn't do it for herself.
The only problem I see with some of these theories is that according to the author (see WOJ below), Maggie Sr was in a rush when she made her deal with Lea. I agree that she had to know that as soon as she left Lord Raith that she was on a ticking clock. Her deal with Lea being a rush deal is at odds with taking the time to plan everything out like intentionally having a Starborn child and seeing to his welfare after her death.
WOJ:Q: Should Harry’s first deal with Lea been covered by Maggie’s deal?
A: Not really. One problem is that Harry dealt with Lea the way that one would deal with another human, so he really didn’t get much out of the bargain besides some confidence. Lea gave him the “magic feather” so to speak.
And, Maggie could have done a little better job on her deal with Lea, but she was kind of in a rush, so she wasn’t as detailed as she should have been.
2009 Kansas City Q&A @37:15
I think it is likely that although Maggie Sr knew she was going to run afoul of Lord Raith, she was committed to trying to raise Harry herself until something happened. Maybe Raith started closing in, maybe a deal fell through, or protection wore off and she knew that she had no time left. That lead to her rushed deal with Lea for protection for Harry.
Additionally, I don't think Maggie Sr could have made a bargain with Mab for Harry to be her knight. Number 1, being the knight is a choice. Mab could not guarantee that Harry would become knight because Harry may not have chosen to be the white knight. If he resists her by saying no than that would be a bargain unfulfilled which may have repercussions for Mab. Number 2, Mab makes choices that benefit winter and its mission as a whole and Mab's scales always balance. Maggie Sr could have tried to bargain for Harry to be in line for the knight, but Mab would have had to receive something of equal value for the scales to balance. What did Maggie Sr have, knowing she was about to die, to give Mab that was of equal worth to protection and a future job for Harry? Why would Mab do this bargain when Harry was either not born or just a baby not knowing if he would have magic, what kind of magic talent he would have, or what his temperament would be? For all Mab knew Harry could have been born a vanilla mortal since magic is not always passed. Sure a starborn wizard would be great, but that would still be a risky proposition for Mab not knowing anything about Harry. Number 3, we know for sure that Maggie Sr made a deal with Lea specifically for Harry's protection. If she already had a deal or was going to make a deal with Mab, why did she make one with Lea? One deal with Mab could have covered everything. Number 4, why would Mab need to do a bargain like this? She is perfectly capable (as we saw in the books) of ensnaring who she wants to be her knight. Mab has no need to bargain with Maggie Sr. for Harry's service when she can just wait, choose him once he has proven himself capable, and then ensnare him like she did.
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[quoteThe only problem I see with some of these theories is that according to the author (see WOJ below), Maggie Sr was in a rush when she made her deal with Lea. I agree that she had to know that as soon as she left Lord Raith that she was on a ticking clock. Her deal with Lea being a rush deal is at odds with taking the time to plan everything out like intentionally having a Starborn child and seeing to his welfare after her death.
WOJ:quote]
White Night page 363 Lash to Harry
"It isrelevant," Lasciel said, "because of the circumstances of your birth--because of whyyou were born, Harry. Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason.
Then further down on the page Lash goes deeper into the complexities on conceiving a star child... So based on this Harry's birth was planned.
Additionally, I don't think Maggie Sr could have made a bargain with Mab for Harry to be her knight. Number 1, being the knight is a choice. Mab could not guarantee that Harry would become knight because Harry may not have chosen to be the white knight. If he resists her by saying no than that would be a bargain unfulfilled which may have repercussions for Mab.
If you read the interaction between Harry and Mab from Summer Knight until Changes, it becomes obvious that Mab has a huge thumb on the scale and is fairly confident that Harry would end up as her Knight. Mab always plays the long game, she is also good at moving the goal posts when she needs to.. She did this often in Harry's case, he'd think he fulfilled on of the conditions for the bargain that he had made, only to find not so much..
A star born Winter Knight who was also a wizard more than balances out any deal Margaret made with Mab.. You are forgetting Margaret knew exactly why she conceived Harry, as did Mab.. Keeping her child alive and safe from Lord Raith would have been enough for a mother, getting a future Knight worth having would be enough for Mab.. Making Lea godmother was a bit of a deception.. Yes, Mab knew exactly what she wanted in a Knight, and was willing to wait until the child grew up.. If Harry was a dud, since Lea was the godmother, Mab loses nothing, she wasn't involved.. Once Harry began to show promise, and Mab needs to test him herself, she decides to take over his contract with Lea? Really? Or was it always planned thus? I think this is why when he finds out the details Harry is pissed, because he really never had a choice.
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I am not sure about all of that but I agree with Maggie knowing she was going to die as soon as Harry, who was protected, left her body. And I also agree she planned everything so he had a Starborn who was protected from Raith and her death curse would weakened Raith. I think Maggie trusted Harry would be protected and raised by Malcolm, and she trusted that would make Harry a good boy.
I do not think Raith knew about Harry. He may have suspected there was a child (I do not think he knew the child was a male even) but he could not find Harry because he has been protected, and then, as Mira said, DuMorne and Eb where enough to hide him. Of course, this only works if Raith did not know that Maggie had married Malcolm Dresden. Because Harry is using his name and he is even in the book! So someone with Raith contacts could find him in no time.
I do not remember how Thomas found out that Harry was his brother.
Back to the curse, I agree with Mira, Raith did not know it was fueled by her bloodline. If he knew I think he would have managed to have Thomas killed, one way or another.
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.. If Harry was a dud, since Lea was the godmother,
Woah .... um . Lea as the godmother is the to ensure that Harry isn't a dud. Harry has to grow up able to defend himself from anything and Lea will make sure that he is able to hang with anyone.
Ps Harry claims she took advantage of him, claims she wishes to make him her dog but hold on. Harry learns to be cautious of fae deals from her. By the time Mab comes for him he is able to make a pretty good deal with her based on his experience with Lea.
O she tried to turn him into a dog. But did she not really, every interaction they have Lea comes up just short and at times gives harry insite in to something that ends up helping him.
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Woah .... um . Lea as the godmother is the to ensure that Harry isn't a dud. Harry has to grow up able to defend himself from anything and Lea will make sure that he is able to hang with anyone.
Did she? Giving young Harry a Dumbo feather so he'd have confidence to go against Justin isn't exactly making sure he could hang with anyone. Actually we don't have that scene on page when Harry actually finds out he has a fairy godmother. Lea took no hand in his training like she did in Molly's case. Did she just pop up after Harry managed to kill HWWB? From the flashback in Ghost Story this happens after he escapes from Justin and HWWB turns up when he is at a gas station.. Seems to me that the Winter Court stayed pretty much hands off until they were sure young Harry had some skills.. Which goes back to the theory that it was Lea or Mab who had Malcolm murdered, because they wanted to limit his influence on Harry.. Further made sure that Eb wouldn't be able to track him down once he went into the foster system at the age of six.. This last makes no sense to me, and Eb has yet to answer those questions.. We also have no idea what Justin had in mind when he adopted Harry and Elaine.
So as we have learned over and over again, bargaining with the Fae can be tricky.. If Mab though Lea promised to watch over Harry, Lea did... Lea checked in when he was in the orphanage as this nice lady who was interested.. That isn't preparing Harry for anything, Lea didn't do anything when Justin adopted him, guess trusting that Justin would give him a good basic wizard education, but no clue of or what Justin's agenda was... The long and the short? From Mab's point of view, and thus Lea as well, Harry was watched over, so they kept up their end of the bargain, nothing was said about training, saving, guiding... If Harry turned out to be a dud, they still kept up their end of the bargain, they watched over him.. Since Harry wasn't, Lea steps in with a Dumbo feather after he defeats HWWB.. The Dumbo feather helped Harry with his confidence, but more importantly Lea made young inexperienced Harry commit to a bargain for that feather. That bargain would chain him to the Winter Court until such a time when Mab would be ready take the bargain over from Lea and begin to pressure Harry into being her Winter Knight... Long term plan?? You bet, Harry had been roped into eventually becoming Mab's Knight since before he was born.. That's why I think he really gets pissed when he finds out the real details of the bargain his mother made with Lea and thus Mab.
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I haven't been following the ins and outs, the nuances, of this conversation but has anyone made the point that Maggie Sr. may have made a Rumpelstiltskin-like bargain with Lea/Mab? Maybe Maggie Sr., knowing of the WC's involvement with the Outsiders and what their end-game was, bargained for help escaping and being protect from the White Court in exchange for help becoming impregnated and birthing Harry as a Starborn? And maybe Maggie Sr.'s seemingly quick and short marriage to Harry's dad was all part of the bargain/plan? And maybe the mother's death - and maybe the father's - is part and parcel of birthing a Starborn? So maybe Harry has to come with grips with though loved by his parents, their union was more mercenary and wasn't 'just a girl standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her,' that he was intentionally created for a pre-planned purpose via a Maggie Sr./Mab scheme? A lot of maybes but I think Jim wants something potentially soul crushing that Harry has to deal with and find some measure of peace with.
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I haven't been following the ins and outs, the nuances, of this conversation but has anyone made the point that Maggie Sr. may have made a Rumpelstiltskin-like bargain with Lea/Mab? Maybe Maggie Sr., knowing of the WC's involvement with the Outsiders and what their end-game was, bargained for help escaping and being protect from the White Court in exchange for help becoming impregnated and birthing Harry as a Starborn? And maybe Maggie Sr.'s seemingly quick and short marriage to Harry's dad was all part of the bargain/plan? And maybe the mother's death - and maybe the father's - is part and parcel of birthing a Starborn? So maybe Harry has to come with grips with though loved by his parents, their union was more mercenary and wasn't 'just a girl standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her,' that he was intentionally created for a pre-planned purpose via a Maggie Sr./Mab scheme? A lot of maybes but I think Jim wants something potentially soul crushing that Harry has to deal with and find some measure of peace with.
Somehow I don't think so if Malcolm was as good a man as everyone says he was. I think I remember Harry talking about a photo that he had and lost in the fire of his mother pregnant with him and his father and how happy they looked. If there were a lot of twists and turns I think it would all be on Winter's part.
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Somehow I don't think so if Malcolm was as good a man as everyone says he was. I think I remember Harry talking about a photo that he had and lost in the fire of his mother pregnant with him and his father and how happy they looked. If there were a lot of twists and turns I think it would all be on Winter's part.
I agree. I can imagine Maggie wanting a Starborn, but I think she truly loved Malcom and Malcolm loved her.
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I haven't been following the ins and outs, the nuances, of this conversation but has anyone made the point that Maggie Sr. may have made a Rumpelstiltskin-like bargain with Lea/Mab? ...
My own WAG is that Mab/Lea dropped a few hints/clues about the "Starborn" situation.
Enough for Maggie Sr. to want to learn more... eventually, to believe she "figured it out, despite the faerie obfuscation." Mab's the kind of long-planning master-manipulator who could pull off exactly that sort of thing, with an eye towards getting herself a Starborn Winterknight.
... Maybe Maggie Sr., knowing of the WC's involvement with the Outsiders and what their end-game was, bargained for help escaping and being protect from the White Court in exchange for help becoming impregnated and birthing Harry as a Starborn? And maybe Maggie Sr.'s seemingly quick and short marriage to Harry's dad was all part of the bargain/plan? And maybe the mother's death - and maybe the father's - is part and parcel of birthing a Starborn? So maybe Harry has to come with grips with though loved by his parents, their union was more mercenary and wasn't 'just a girl standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her,' that he was intentionally created for a pre-planned purpose via a Maggie Sr./Mab scheme? A lot of maybes but I think Jim wants something potentially soul crushing that Harry has to deal with and find some measure of peace with.
That's a LOT of maybe's. I'm pretty sure they're mistaken, though...
I can't go trawling through the archives right now, but I'm pretty sure there's WoJ that Margaret meeting Malcom while on the run was unplanned/serendipitous (by which I suspect Jim may mean "it was actually Uriel's doing").
If Mab is a "master-manipulator," Uriel has the strands of fate at his fingertips.
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If Mab is a "master-manipulator," Uriel has the strands of fate at his fingertips.
The interesting bit is what Chauncy told Harry way back in Full Moon, that his boss and company were ready to receive Margaret with open arms.. She was one of theirs, bad news, then something changed and she escaped their grasp. That something was Malcolm, does a thing like meeting the right man at exactly the right time just happen by accident?
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If it was Uriel, it was under the WG orders, I believe.
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If it was Uriel, it was under the WG orders, I believe.
I agree. :)
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Yes, a lot of maybes.
Add one more - maybe Malcom was fae and of Winter. Is there anything definitive on how a changeling knows it's a changeling, especially if Mab doesn't want the changeling to know and has given a direct order for no one to tell?
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... maybe Malcom was fae and of Winter. Is there anything definitive on how a changeling knows it's a changeling, especially if Mab doesn't want the changeling to know and has given a direct order for no one to tell?
Malcolm seems too warm & loving. Winterfae aren't.
But Eb met him, and iirc testifies as to both his goodness and his being pure-Mundane.
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Malcolm seems to warm & loving. Winterfae aren't.
But Eb met him, and iirc testifies as to both his goodness and his being pure-Mundane.
I agree, I don't think that Malcolm had anything to do with the Winter Court. It is my belief that Margaret met Malcolm, fell in love and left Lord Raith. Not clear if she decided to conceive a star born with Malcolm and was pregnant before she left Lord Raith or after she left them. One thing for sure, just the act of leaving him was a death sentence sooner or later. I do believe however she was with child when she made a bargain with Mab and Lea for the protection of her child. I don't think she would have done so otherwise.
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I agree, I don't think that Malcolm had anything to do with the Winter Court. It is my belief that Margaret met Malcolm, fell in love and left Lord Raith. Not clear if she decided to conceive a star born with Malcolm and was pregnant before she left Lord Raith or after she left them. One thing for sure, just the act of leaving him was a death sentence sooner or later. I do believe however she was with child when she made a bargain with Mab and Lea for the protection of her child. I don't think she would have done so otherwise.
I think Dresden's conception and upbringing is far darker and far more intentional and engineered by multiple parties than this theory suggests. For example, I think the bargain was made before Dresden was conceived; if Maggie, Sr. was pregnant with a human child, why would she then seek to bargain with the fae for protection of Dresden instead of going to her own father, Senior Counsel member and the Black Staff? I believe Butcher has been spreading crumbs while misdirecting us both with Dresden as unreliable/in denial narrator and with his WOJ. I don't think that's a bad thing nor do I mean to suggest that Butcher should have done otherwise; it's just the path that Butcher has essentially had to take to avoid the story being unsurprising as its end builds, given the years/decades that he knew would be spent writing and releasing the overarching story.
But all will be revealed eventually, I suppose. I just hope I'm around to read the last book of the final trilogy.
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... It is my belief that Margaret met Malcolm, fell in love and left Lord Raith ...
I'm virtually certain I recall WoJ that Margaret met Malcolm _after_ leaving Raith. I suspect that if she had fallen for Mal beforehand, she wouldn't even have left Raith (for fear of painting a target on Mal).
... One thing for sure, just the act of leaving him was a death sentence sooner or later ...
If she wanted to remain the renegade / lone-wolf, you're right. She's at least 2-3 magnitudes too weak to be safe from Raith's Outsider-fueled magic and the extra elements of White Court that Raith would be willing to employ (not to reveal his "shame" in having a mortal doe abandon him) .
If she could have gotten the White Council's protection, it'd have been a different story.
... I do believe however she was with child when she made a bargain with Mab and Lea for the protection of her child. I don't think she would have done so otherwise.
Absolutely she was with child, yes.
Furthermore, she was almost certainly aware it was a (potential) Starborn, and/or (via Salic Law) likely a powerful wizard; someone who would need protection during childhood.
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I do not think she was with child, because I think she conceived Harry after deciding to have a Starborn, so she had to choose the approximated time of the conception. And I believe she took that decision only after she was sure she could do that with Malcolm.
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I do not think she was with child, because I think she conceived Harry after deciding to have a Starborn, so she had to choose the approximated time of the conception. And I believe she took that decision only after she was sure she could do that with Malcolm.
It's entirely possible that Thomas was a failed Starborn-attempt (tho I think he was just "unexpected").
I think Margaret's "starbabe" plan (specifically, her intention to execute the plan) varied with time. Lea (at Mab's orders) laid the foundations: a Starborn that Maggie raised would likely have the mojo to get the White Council to enact the changes Margaret had wanted for a century(ish); Mab(Lea) had her own agenda (but knew Maggie would want that Starbabe for herself as leverage on the White Council).
The party with Raith & Duchess Ortega, where Maggie Sr. tried to recruit Ebenezer was (I think) her first serious attempt; I suspect she wanted him aboard to protect his daugher & grandchild from the Whamp/Ramp coalition. When he wouldn't go for it, I think she got cold feet and backed out (of what was likely, ultimately, a Black Council operation).
Later -- after she was on the run -- she met Malcolm. She fell in love. She soulgazed him, she knew with certainty that he was a good man; extraordinarily so. And the regained her hope in the Starborn plan: that a Starborn that Malcolm raised would also be good (and not swayed by Black Council plots, White Council blandishments, etc). Though he'd also need a badass Faerie Godmother.
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I don't think Thomas was a failed Starborn. I got the idea that Starborn were born in a very specific window that happens every many, many years. So I do not think Thomas, who is several years older than Harry, was near that window. Also Harry was born on Halloween, which I think is not a coincidence either, I think it was part of Maggie's plan. But Thomas was born on February.
The rest, I don't know.
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I think Dresden's conception and upbringing is far darker and far more intentional and engineered by multiple parties than this theory suggests. For example, I think the bargain was made before Dresden was conceived; if Maggie, Sr. was pregnant with a human child, why would she then seek to bargain with the fae for protection of Dresden instead of going to her own father, Senior Counsel member and the Black Staff? I believe Butcher has been spreading crumbs while misdirecting us both with Dresden as unreliable/in denial narrator and with his WOJ. I don't think that's a bad thing nor do I mean to suggest that Butcher should have done otherwise; it's just the path that Butcher has essentially had to take to avoid the story being unsurprising as its end builds, given the years/decades that he knew would be spent writing and releasing the overarching story.
But all will be revealed eventually, I suppose. I just hope I'm around to read the last book of the final trilogy.
I think Mab -- likely mostly via her Handmaiden -- led Maggie gently to the idea of a Starbabe.
I think Maggie's original idea was a starborn wizard with enough mojo to get the White Council to agree to some of her "modern" revisions towards equality/etc.
Not sure when she moved from that plan; but she kinda gave up on the sweetness-and-light version when she threw in with Raith Père & Duchess Arianna (who I think were Black Council (or shills for them)): I think it was a Starbabe plan she pitched to Eb, when Arianna twigged to the familial fight dynamic.
Whatever her scheme, at that point, she was firmly-allied in said scheme with 2 of the 3 Vampire Courts, and that's pretty fucking DARK.
AFAIK we have zero evidence of any WhiteCouncil starbabe plans, but I've gotta suspect they had ideas, most likely around "let the baddies get the babe born, then we'll swoop in to collect the child" &c.
I think Maggie wouldn't go to Eb because she had so much suspicion / distrust of the White Council (possibly even sure knowledge, but no actionable evidence, of black-magic or similar corruption) and knew Eb was solidly pro-WC.
But Mab, and Lea ...
The Winter agenda was a Starborn Winterknight, free from White Council limits & constraints.
They led Maggie down the Starborn garden-path -- probably a decades-long plan: a hint here, an allusion there, a demure smirking not-quite-denial, etc -- then abandoned her to Black Council + Vamps, isolating her from her only viable allies (the WC). Somehow they lured her to escape (I suspect Lea, who's specifically a demigoddess of "inspiration" & muses) under cover of Faerie Glamour (remember how Morgan was un-trackable to everything the White Council could do?), "proving" the Faerie alliance to be invaluable.
Then when Margaret got pregnant with a likely Starbabe, they induced her to bargain for that protection to go to her child (automatically insta-killing Maggie, when the "cannot track/target" Glamour left her, and Raith's entropy-curse found its target)... exactly as the Faeries intended.
Then they arranged for Malcolm's death, too -- he died, iirc, with a gentle smile on his face... almost as if some faerie had englamoured herself to seem like Margaret LeFey (and Mab has proved herself particularly adept at pretending to be a mortal) -- and (once more under faerie-unfindable Glamour) squirreled Harry away to the orphanage (remember: Lea was a semi-regular visitor).
Then they arranged Justin to adopt Harry: harsh (wintery) Justin (to give Harry his White-Council style training); I bet they charged DuMorne a pretty penny, to reveal a Starborn Wizard to him! Even if it was exactly their plan all along.
I put all of that on Mab/Lea conniving.
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I'm virtually certain I recall WoJ that Margaret met Malcolm _after_ leaving Raith. I suspect that if she had fallen for Mal beforehand, she wouldn't even have left Raith (for fear of painting a target on Mal).
I seriously doubt that Margaret had woken up one morning and had an epiphany, so decided to leave Lord Raith. I am going by what Lash told Harry in White Night.
page 363
Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason.
That line is in the context of a paragraph where Lash hints at a why and the circumstances of Harry's birth. While yeah, one can put the cart before the horse, but I don't think Margaret did in this case. She met Malcolm, he was an extraordinary good soul, she fell in love, she radically changed for the good. That gave her the strength to leave Lord Raith. She wanted to have Malcolm's child, she wanted with his cooperation to conceive a star child.. Harry was planned, and Malcolm was in on it, he hinted that to Harry in the scene around the campfire in Harry's dream about him in Dead Beat I think it was. She knew how risky leaving Lord Raith was, but she was hoping for a better life, one with Malcolm.. Without Malcolm, she wouldn't have changed nor would she have found the strength to leave Lord Raith.
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I seriously doubt that Margaret had woken up one morning and had an epiphany, so decided to leave Lord Raith.
Phrased that way, of course not!
But Mme LaFey, the noted waywalker? Acquaintance of the Leanansidhe, whose chief mortal involvement rotates around inspiration?
I think the chances Maggie might become "inspired" to leave Raith would be substantial. After all -- she has her son to protect, from the father who has killed every other male heir!
What better way to protect Thomas than to curse Lord Raith's Hunger Demon -- "leave Thomas alone, or you'll never be free to Feed again!" And then she runs away, so Raith can't bring overwhelming force to bear on her...
A positively inspired plan!
Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason.
That line is in the context of a paragraph where Lash hints at a why and the circumstances of Harry's birth. While yeah, one can put the cart before the horse, but I don't think Margaret did in this case.
I suspect Lash was hinting at much larger-scale issues, at the "reason" including much larger players, possibly up to and including the Angelic powers, much more than hinting at just Margaret's reasoning.
But I don't think we have much info either way; Lash's info is very short: every moment of that accelerated-time was risking brain-damage to Harry, and brought uber-trolls and Outsider-possessed Raith a bit closer...
Survive now.
Convey secrets later!
(and give an ambiguous one-liner for the rabid fans to gnaw upon like starving dogs with a bone, for years ... )
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What better way to protect Thomas than to curse Lord Raith's Hunger Demon -- "leave Thomas alone, or you'll never be free to Feed again!" And then she runs away, so Raith can't bring overwhelming force to bear on her...
Except that isn't what happened, Margaret left Thomas in Lara's care and left.. If her aim was to protect Thomas from the Hunger demon she could have taken him with her and then threatened Lord Raith... That didn't happen.
I suspect Lash was hinting at much larger-scale issues, at the "reason" including much larger players, possibly up to and including the Angelic powers, much more than hinting at just Margaret's reasoning.
But I don't think we have much info either way; Lash's info is very short: every moment of that accelerated-time was risking brain-damage to Harry, and brought uber-trolls and Outsider-possessed Raith a bit closer...
Survive now.
Convey secrets later!
(and give an ambiguous one-liner for the rabid fans to gnaw upon like starving dogs with a bone, for years ... )
Perhaps if it were merely an ambiguous one liner. However given in context, it isn't an ambiguous one liner at all... The context of what Chauncy told Harry about how they were ready to receive his mother, then things changed and she was lost to them. The constant repeating through out the series of Harry inheriting his father's good nature.. Malcolm's good heart, this is what sets Harry apart from the other star born we've met. Margaret wasn't going to leave Lord Raith, she was bad news, she had done plenty of evil, we have Luccio's word on that, then she changed, she redeemed herself.. What is the one thing that check mates the White Court? Love.. Margaret met and fell in love with Malcolm, true love.. It gave her the courage to leave Lord Raith, and I bet when it is all sorted out, love is the magic ingredient that Margaret put into her death curse that thwarts Lord Raith's Hunger Demon, and that his Outsider protection cannot combat, so Lord Raith lives on even as he starves..
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Mira, I agree with you about what Chauncy said and about how important is Malcolm's goodness and Margaret's love for him. However, I don't agree with the first part of your post. Leaving with Thomas was not so easy. Officially he was the prince of the White Court. All the White court would pursue her. Yes, leaving Lord Raith was dangerous. He was a very powerful man, both magically and socially. He had means for having his revenge. But he was not as motivated as he has been if Maggie had taken his child. Not because he loved Thomas but because what he represented.
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Mira, I agree with you about what Chauncy said and about how important is Malcolm's goodness and Margaret's love for him. However, I don't agree with the first part of your post. Leaving with Thomas was not so easy. Officially he was the prince of the White Court. All the White court would pursue her. Yes, leaving Lord Raith was dangerous. He was a very powerful man, both magically and socially. He had means for having his revenge. But he was not as motivated as he has been if Maggie had taken his child. Not because he loved Thomas but because what he represented.
But the point is Dina, that Margaret still left, and without Thomas. For a woman to decide to leave her child behind is huge! That just doesn't happen in a vacuum, as Lash told Harry, she found the strength to leave Lord Raith for a reason. Margaret could very well have thought that Thomas was safer with Lara than going with her. She must have also explained it to young Thomas in such a way that he understood, or she had Lara do it, because as of now we haven't seen any resentment of this on the part of Thomas. In a lot of respects none of it makes sense, yes, you can argue that Thomas was safer being left behind, but that didn't make Lord Raith less likely to want to murder Margaret, Malcolm, and yes, their child, Harry. I am still of the opinion that Margaret found that strength to leave because she met Malcolm, suddenly saw the world differently and found the strength to leave her only child behind and Lord Raith..
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Again, I am not sure Raith knew about Margaret having another child. I am not even sure he knew about Malcolm.
I always wondered in what context a stage magician met the wife of a vampire, who is a witch.
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Again, I am not sure Raith knew about Margaret having another child. I am not even sure he knew about Malcolm.
I always wondered in what context a stage magician met the wife of a vampire, who is a witch.
I think that depends on how targeted his killing spell had to be. I mean if he had to know where she was, then he should have known at least that she was in labor.. Was Margaret really married to Lord Raith? Or did he just call her that because she had one of his children? Wonder what happened to his other wives? I also wonder in what context Margaret could have met Malcolm, I mean if she was just on the run from Lord Raith, I hardly think she'd attend a magic show.. Like a lot in the novels, stuff sounds great on the surface, but if you dig too deeply they begin not to make sense... Especially over a long series, stuff begins to contradict, happens in television series as well, I guess the author and writers think we fans forget details, and that's a real mistake.
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I do not think he knew where she was. The spell should target her, perhaps Raith has some hair or blood or something like that.
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I think that depends on how targeted his killing spell had to be. I mean if he had to know where she was...
I do not think "sympathetic magic" needs a physical "aim here" target, it ... just hits.
The sympathetic bond targets via magic, to wherever that bond exists (needing extra power to cross rivers or other running water, a HUGE amount to cross an ocean, etc).
... I also wonder in what context Margaret could have met Malcolm, I mean if she was just on the run from Lord Raith, I hardly think she'd attend a magic show.. Like a lot in the novels, stuff sounds great on the surface, but if you dig too deeply they begin not to make sense... Especially over a long series, stuff begins to contradict, happens in television series as well, I guess the author and writers think we fans forget details, and that's a real mistake.
Where could they have met?
Literally anywhere... At a grocery store... At a library... Doing a cheesy tourist location... Maybe even, yes, a magic-show: I imagine a fair number of Dresdenverse "real wizards" find mundane stage-magic to be various kinds of fascinating, amusing, etc... Like, "I know there's no real magic happening here, I could tell if there were... how TF did he DO that??!? Ha-ha-ha-ha this is AMAZEBALLS!" Also, I think a stage-magic show is exactly the kind of place Lord Raith would never expect Margaret "LaFey" Dresden to go, so it'd be obscurely extra-safe.
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Well, I do not think is so easy. As the wife of the very wealthy vampire king, I do not think she is going for groceries and thinks like that. Perhaps to very expensive things, like jewelry or fine clothing, but that is not a place where you would find Malcolm. Same with travels. First, I do not think Raith allowed Maggie to travel alone but that would be a moot point if Maggie can just use a Way to go for an esspresso in Italy. But how would she interact with Malcolm? Library is an option but I think the most probable scenario is Maggie (and perhaps Lara and her sisters) going to to Malcolm show just for curiosity. Still, it would be interesting to know more about that.
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Well, I do not think is so easy. As the wife of the very wealthy vampire king, I do not think she is going for groceries and thinks like that. Perhaps to very expensive things, like jewelry or fine clothing, but that is not a place where you would find Malcolm. Same with travels. First, I do not think Raith allowed Maggie to travel alone but that would be a moot point if Maggie can just use a Way to go for an esspresso in Italy. But how would she interact with Malcolm? Library is an option but I think the most probable scenario is Maggie (and perhaps Lara and her sisters) going to to Malcolm show just for curiosity. Still, it would be interesting to know more about that.
Once she was on the run from Raith, she very well might be hitting up a grocery-store or other "common" (i.e. not-ultrarich) activities & entertainments.
I mean, she was also a reasonably-senior and very powerful wizard in her own right, so I expect she had plenty of resources in her own right, if she wanted/needed, without drawing upon any of the Whamps' backing. But circulating in the wealthy echelons will make her MUCH more visible to her angry scorned ex-lover.
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But I thought she met Malcolm before leaving Raith.
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But I thought she met Malcolm before leaving Raith.
I don't think so.
The "official" timeline (crowdsourced as a fanwork largely here on the Paranet, but embraced by Jim & blessed as official on his site) lists them close together, but with her escaping Raith coming separately, and prior to, her meeting Malcolm Dresden. For reference, her giving Thomas his copy of the pentacle amulet happened before she left, but not as a separate entry.
I'm also almost certain I recall a WoJ clarifying that yes, she had already left Raith when she met Dresden, tho I cannot search for it now.
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I don't think so.
The "official" timeline (crowdsourced as a fanwork largely here on the Paranet, but embraced by Jim & blessed as official on his site) lists them close together, but with her escaping Raith coming separately, and prior to, her meeting Malcolm Dresden. For reference, her giving Thomas his copy of the pentacle amulet happened before she left, but not as a separate entry.
I'm also almost certain I recall a WoJ clarifying that yes, she had already left Raith when she met Dresden, tho I cannot search for it now.
Except that doesn't make sense. Yes, Margaret did give Thomas a copy of her amulet.. But to what end? As simply a remembrance of her? Or so he could recognize his brother or his brother could recognize him? She also implanted a message for Harry in Thomas's mind so when they did meet, they could eventually soul gaze. Thomas also knew from the beginning that Harry was his brother.. Now Lara could have told him that, granted, but... Also we have the word of Lash, "she found the strength to leave Lord Raith for a reason.." No, the only thing that makes sense given all the information, is Margaret met and fell in love with Malcolm before she left Lord Raith. Also she was already pregnant, or had planned to be, because she met Malcolm, then planned to get pregnant by him with a star child.
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Except that doesn't make sense. Yes, Margaret did give Thomas a copy of her amulet.. But to what end? As simply a remembrance of her? Or so he could recognize his brother or his brother could recognize him? She also implanted a message for Harry in Thomas's mind so when they did meet, they could eventually soul gaze. Thomas also knew from the beginning that Harry was his brother.. Now Lara could have told him that, granted, but... Also we have the word of Lash, "she found the strength to leave Lord Raith for a reason.." No, the only thing that makes sense given all the information, is Margaret met and fell in love with Malcolm before she left Lord Raith. Also she was already pregnant, or had planned to be, because she met Malcolm, then planned to get pregnant by him with a star child.
Mira, this isn't a bad argument. You could be correct. However, I think there is another possibility to consider. Something happened that allowed for Margaret to have an epiphany or see the light, whatever metaphorical expression you wish to choose. Could Uriel have been involved? It's possible and even makes sense, but let me get back to the main story. Margaret finally sees through to the end game of the scheme she was working on with Lord Raith and Duchess Ariana. We could say Margarite finally sees Raith for what he really is or discovers his connection to the Outsiders and perceives their plan. Either explanation works, but the scales fall from Margarete's eyes and she understands that first she must get away. She can't think through a plan to counter what she set in motion until she escapes.
However, if the plan was to conceive a starborn child with Lord Raith or a mortal and then allow that child to be used for the benefit of two of the vampire courts, simply escaping the Raiths put a stop to that plan. (I'm not saying that was the plan, but it's a possibility.)
This makes me think about Papa Raith's reaction to Margarite's vanishing act. I doubt he decided to kill her right away. Raith could have performed an entropy curse within a day or a few days of Margarite leaving him. I forget what was said in Blood Rites about the entropy curse, but I do remember it could only be performed at specific times of the day. I think it is much more likely that Raith wanted to get Margarite back and put her under his complete control. Plus, with his ego, he would have wanted to personally punish her for defying him. Think of the scene with Raith and Murphy in Blood Rites as an indication of how he would have reacted. Only after realizing that catching Margarite LeFay was virtually impossible did Lord Raith decide to kill Margarite. Another explanation is Lord Raith found out Margarite had married a mortal. If they were in love with one another Lord Raith knew Margarite was protected from his further manipulation and control. Perhaps that realization made Lord Raith act decisively.
Margarite probably guessed that she had some time before Lord Raith would become murderous. She also had other former allies plus the White Council to worry about. She meets Malcolm Dresden. Is Uriel involved in that happening? Maybe, it seems plausible. In any case, only after falling in love with Malcolm does she put together her plan to have a starborn child to counter the vampires and, or Outsiders.
Something happens that tips off Margarite that her time is growing short. She knows the Fae and specifically she knows Lea. That is when she calls upon Lea and makes the deal that will protect her unborn child from just about everyone except Lea. Margarite is in a hurry and doesn't make the best deal she might have made. She doesn't get protection for Malcolm. She makes the false assumption that Malcolm Dresden; being a vanilla mortal, won't be of any interest to the supernatural community. She wasn't thinking clearly.
Lord Raith gets hit with Margarite death curse and realizes she did it, but doesn't initially understand what is fueling the death curse. He didn't realize that the Margarite's child might be an anchor for her death curse until the child had already disappeared, probably after Malcolm Dresden's death.
There is my scenario. It's not perfect, but I think it works.
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I am sorry but I have to say this. Her name is Margaret.
(Side note: she is Margaret Gwendolyn and the female main character in The Aeronaut Windlass is called Gwendolyn Margaret Elizabeth Lancaster)
Definitely many options here, I hope we have some answers soon.
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... Also we have the word of Lash, "she found the strength to leave Lord Raith for a reason.." No, the only thing that makes sense given all the information, is Margaret met and fell in love with Malcolm before she left Lord Raith ...
I really don't think so: bluntly, this is nowhere supported in the text; it appears that you want Margaret's love for Malcolm to have been the critical element for her to leave Raith, but that's you reading-in something that isn't there, adding 2+2 to get 5, via your own +1.
The best info I can find is from the "official timeline":
~26-27 BSF: Thomas is given a pentacle necklace on his fifth birthday. His mother escapes Lord Raith.
26 BSF: Maggie LeFay meets Malcolm Dresden.
-- https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline
Which, while close-set in terms of timing, clearly places "... escapes Lord Raith" as a separate event occurring prior to "Maggie meets Malcolm."
There is a separate, unofficial fan timeline here:
https://websiteofahistoricalpolymath.wordpress.com/timelines/time-line-of-the-harry-dresden-universe/
which specifically cites "Blood Rites" as the source, and (tentatively) places 1968 as the year Margaret left Raith, and 1969 as the year she met Malcolm.
I am almost certain I've read somewhere in WoJ's (or seen in AMA event video) that Jim has explicitly stated this; but I cannot find it at the moment.
Lash -- as "Lasciel's Shadow" -- was created with access to a tremendous number of secrets and hidden/occult information, things that "mere mortals" might rarely or never discover... things like "Fate" and "Destiny." There may very well have been "portents" and "omens" and such-like, well-known to the Fallen, about Margaret LeFay giving birth to a Starborn.
Lasciel is rather less cognizant of things like genuine love, genuinely good people. Genuine love & goodness -- as the Shadow was formulated, the info it/she was created with -- would have been baffling, irrelevant.
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-- https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline
Which, while close-set in terms of timing, clearly places "... escapes Lord Raith" as a separate event occurring prior to "Maggie meets Malcolm."
There is a separate, unofficial fan timeline here:
https://websiteofahistoricalpolymath.wordpress.com/timelines/time-line-of-the-harry-dresden-universe/
which specifically cites "Blood Rites" as the source, and (tentatively) places 1968 as the year Margaret left Raith, and 1969 as the year she met Malcolm.
I am almost certain I've read somewhere in WoJ's (or seen in AMA event video) that Jim has explicitly stated this; but I cannot find it at the moment.
However the "offical or unoffical" doesn't have any evidence either, not in the text. It's a guess, Eb doesn't tell Harry that Margaret left Raith in 1968 and met Malcolm in 1969. Margaret in the soul gaze doesn't tell Harry she left Lord Raith and then met Malcolm and fell in love.. None of that is written in Blood Rites, if you can find it please give it to me.. Otherwise its a guess, just like my speculation is..
Mira, this isn't a bad argument. You could be correct. However, I think there is another possibility to consider. Something happened that allowed for Margaret to have an epiphany or see the light, whatever metaphorical expression you wish to choose. Could Uriel have been involved? It's possible and even makes sense, but let me get back to the main story. Margaret finally sees through to the end game of the scheme she was working on with Lord Raith and Duchess Ariana. We could say Margarite finally sees Raith for what he really is or discovers his connection to the Outsiders and perceives their plan. Either explanation works, but the scales fall from Margarete's eyes and she understands that first she must get away. She can't think through a plan to counter what she set in motion until she escapes.
Yes, that is also possible..
I can also buy that conceiving a star born would be or could be part of the White Court plan.... I also think that it could have been very much a White Council plan, you gotta admit they are less than transparent on this little fact. Though they toss out plenty of hints...
Okay, it's very hot and humid here and my brain is par boiled.. Here is a crazy theory to hang onto your tin foil hats boys and girls...
The star born skeem was actually hatched in an agreement between the White Court and the White Council, and Margaret was the designated incubator with Lord Raith as daddy... This could be one of the reasons why Eb almost irrationally hates vampires, or maybe just vampires of the White Court. What is strange is there was a time when Eb would dine with Lord Raith, Arrianna, and Margaret, so he didn't always hate them.
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However the "offical or unoffical" doesn't have any evidence either, not in the text. It's a guess, Eb doesn't tell Harry that Margaret left Raith in 1968 and met Malcolm in 1969. Margaret in the soul gaze doesn't tell Harry she left Lord Raith and then met Malcolm and fell in love.. None of that is written in Blood Rites, if you can find it please give it to me.. Otherwise its a guess, just like my speculation is.. Yes, that is also possible..
The official timeline does not need evidence in the text. Is it based upon speculation and guesswork? Yes, but it is official because Jim has given it his blessing and hosted it on his website. It is not completely filled in, but what is present is accurate according to Jim at this time. He can always contradict or change it later, but for now that time line is considered canon.
Okay, it's very hot and humid here and my brain is par boiled.. Here is a crazy theory to hang onto your tin foil hats boys and girls...
The star born skeem was actually hatched in an agreement between the White Court and the White Council, and Margaret was the designated incubator with Lord Raith as daddy... This could be one of the reasons why Eb almost irrationally hates vampires, or maybe just vampires of the White Court. What is strange is there was a time when Eb would dine with Lord Raith, Arrianna, and Margaret, so he didn't always hate them.
I doubt that the White Council and White Court would scheme together. The White Court views vampires with distrust since they can corrupt and convert human wizards. The White Council, as the guardians of humanity, are naturally set against all other forces that seek to control/enslave/destroy humanity. Elaine and Harry are both starborn with two mortal parents. There is no reason for Maggie Sr to intentionally have a child with a white court vampire to create a starborn. Why would the White Council want a starborn that another group/organization has claim/influence over. Especially an organization that can bend others to their will like the White Council. Ebeneezer hates the White Court because Lord Raith killed his daughter. There is no need to find another motive for his hatred.
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I doubt that the White Council and White Court would scheme together. The White Court views vampires with distrust since they can corrupt and convert human wizards. The White Council, as the guardians of humanity, are naturally set against all other forces that seek to control/enslave/destroy humanity. Elaine and Harry are both starborn with two mortal parents. There is no reason for Maggie Sr to intentionally have a child with a white court vampire to create a starborn. Why would the White Council want a starborn that another group/organization has claim/influence over. Especially an organization that can bend others to their will like the White Council. Ebeneezer hates the White Court because Lord Raith killed his daughter. There is no need to find another motive for his hatred.
As of now, there is no proof that Elaine is star born.
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As of now, there is no proof that Elaine is star born.
You are correct.
Jim has been very cagey when pressed on this issue; she "has the potential" but I haven't seen (or read) him ever spilling those beans and confirming that she is, or denying it... it's entirely possible that he has different storylines in mind and hasn't even decided!!!
That DuMorne had (secretly) gotten hold of two "potential" Starborn without someone engaging in major chicanery strains and then shatters the bounds of credulity!
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I would like to address the original OP.
First, I agree with Talby16's explanation of why Harry didn't have anything like Winter Knight powers in the ghostly realm. Harry had to draw on his memories to power his ghost spells. That was a very smart explanation. Besides what could Harry do with the few memories he had of using Winter Knight powers at Chichen Itza. I doubt Harry could make other ghosts or spirits slip and fall by putting ghost ice underneath them.
I also felt that Ghost Story felt disconnected from the earlier novels, but that wasn't my main complaint against it. I felt; and still do feel, the novel's B story about Fix and the second rate sorcerer Aristedes was the Ghost Story's weak link. I didn't care about those characters then and still don't now. I won't be surprised or disappointed if we never see Fix again.
There were also a couple of times in the story where I felt Jim had become sloppy in his writing, which I won't recount, because it would take too long to dig them up and explain their flaws. Those were more annoyances than anything else.
While I'm being nitpicky, I should add the confrontation between Bob and Evil Bob felt to me at least, somewhat lackluster. Evil Bob could play an important to the continuing story, but that section of the novel; despite its brutal action, didn't hit home with me for some reason.
My final complaint is similar to one I have about Cold Days. It took an awfully long time to get to the meat of the story. It felt meandering, but more so than Cold Days even though Cold Days has a longer word count.
All of those negatives aside, in rereading Ghost Story, I developed a greater appreciation for the main story in the novel. Harry working through his feelings, his memories and eventually discovering that he was his own killer by proxy of Molly and Kincade; that was really good. Plus, Harry's conversation with Lea and his memory of his first encounter with HWWB was also excellent.
So, all in all, I did like Ghost Story much more the second time through, despite its weaknesses.
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Agreed. I didn't connect well with the subplot and as powerful as Bob(s) are, it all felt kinda meh. Almost like we've seen too many explosions in movies and they don't carry the same weight anymore.
I would like to address the original OP.
First, I agree with Talby16's explanation of why Harry didn't have anything like Winter Knight powers in the ghostly realm. Harry had to draw on his memories to power his ghost spells. That was a very smart explanation. Besides what could Harry do with the few memories he had of using Winter Knight powers at Chichen Itza. I doubt Harry could make other ghosts or spirits slip and fall by putting ghost ice underneath them.
I also felt that Ghost Story felt disconnected from the earlier novels, but that wasn't my main complaint against it. I felt; and still do feel, the novel's B story about Fix and the second rate sorcerer Aristedes was the Ghost Story's weak link. I didn't care about those characters then and still don't now. I won't be surprised or disappointed if we never see Fix again.
There were also a couple of times in the story where I felt Jim had become sloppy in his writing, which I won't recount, because it would take too long to dig them up and explain their flaws. Those were more annoyances than anything else.
While I'm being nitpicky, I should add the confrontation between Bob and Evil Bob felt to me at least, somewhat lackluster. Evil Bob could play an important to the continuing story, but that section of the novel; despite its brutal action, didn't hit home with me for some reason.
My final complaint is similar to one I have about Cold Days. It took an awfully long time to get to the meat of the story. It felt meandering, but more so than Cold Days even though Cold Days has a longer word count.
All of those negatives aside, in rereading Ghost Story, I developed a greater appreciation for the main story in the novel. Harry working through his feelings, his memories and eventually discovering that he was his own killer by proxy of Molly and Kincade; that was really good. Plus, Harry's conversation with Lea and his memory of his first encounter with HWWB was also excellent.
So, all in all, I did like Ghost Story much more the second time through, despite its weaknesses.