Ghost Story--two things

[Tinfoil hat]

Ref:  https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50842.msg2302007.html#msg2302007

  A while ago I posted in another thread that Lord Raith did not know Harry and Thomas were brothers before Blood Rites.

  So, it might be he knew about the curse, but was told that only killing Thomas would not be enough to end it.  That might be why he delayed killing Thomas.  Also, some of the things Lord Raith forced Thomas to do looked like he was trying to get Thomas killed in a way that he would not be blamed for.

APG

The curse is tied to Marge sr bloodline. I think all her living descendants feed it
There is a fridge horror theory that in White nights after killing Harry and Thomas. He still would be unable to feed so he would start killing the women that thomas and harry have been with and their kids. At this point little Marge was born but he didnt know about her

[Mira]

Ref:  https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50842.msg2302007.html#msg2302007

  A while ago I posted in another thread that Lord Raith did not know Harry and Thomas were brothers before Blood Rites.

  So, it might be he knew about the curse, but was told that only killing Thomas would not be enough to end it.  That might be why he delayed killing Thomas.  Also, some of the things Lord Raith forced Thomas to do looked like he was trying to get Thomas killed in a way that he would not be blamed for.

APG

I kind of remember that also from the book, however I find it odd that he wasn't aware that Margaret was about to give birth or had just given birth when he killed her.  Also it is strange that he wouldn't have kept track of that baby for fear of revenge someday.  Also since he managed to murder the male siblings of Thomas and it seems no secret that he did, why would Raith worry if he got blamed or not?  After all if he got his power to feed back it would all have been worth it.

[Tinfoil hat]

I kind of remember that also from the book, however I find it odd that he wasn't aware that Margaret was about to give birth or had just given birth when he killed her.  Also it is strange that he wouldn't have kept track of that baby for fear of revenge someday.  Also since he managed to murder the male siblings of Thomas and it seems no secret that he did, why would Raith worry if he got blamed or not?  After all if he got his power to feed back it would all have been worth it.

I kind of remember that also from the book, however I find it odd that he wasn't aware that Margaret was about to give birth or had just given birth when he killed her.  Also it is strange that he wouldn't have kept track of that baby for fear of revenge someday.  Also since he managed to murder the male siblings of Thomas and it seems no secret that he did, why would Raith worry if he got blamed or not?  After all if he got his power to feed back it would all have been worth it.

The way i see it is that the white courts way of killing opponents is to do it in a way that everyone knows its probably you but have no way of proving its you. Sort of like the coups and wars from the cold war. Everyone knew who was backing who but everyone pretended otherwise.
Killing Thomas openly would lose Papa Raith face. Its saying that Thomas was strong enough to make him show his hand which is bad for his image.

[Mira]

The way i see it is that the white courts way of killing opponents is to do it in a way that everyone knows its probably you but have no way of proving its you. Sort of like the coups and wars from the cold war. Everyone knew who was backing who but everyone pretended otherwise.
Killing Thomas openly would lose Papa Raith face. Its saying that Thomas was strong enough to make him show his hand which is bad for his image.

Who says it has to be openly?  He could have just killed Thomas like he did his brothers, he didn't lose any face over that.  Thomas was just a little more clever than his brothers and avoided it.

[Dina]

I am not sure that is what happened. I mean, yes, obviously by pretending to be Clark Kent he convinced his dad he was harmless, but  I think there is a point in Wraith pretending to care for having a Heir. So, for Papa Wraith there was some benefit in keeping one son. Politics. Somehow, male vampire have survived, there was not only one male for family. I have the feeling it was good for a family to have some male.

[Talby16]

Lord Raith knew that Maggie Sr put a death curse on him. I think he was aware that he needed to kill her sons in order to free himself. He may not have known for sure who Harry was. In the Micro Fiction Journal, Morgan wrote that after Malcom's death Justin got to Harry and made him disappear physically, magically, and bureaucratically. Raith may not have been able to find Harry after that. One of the reasons he might have kept Thomas alive was to serve as bait hoping that his brother would come find him. I also agree that there might have been some politics in there about having a male heir. That being said, IIRC, at some point Thomas states that his dad keeps sending him on missions hoping he will die. The White Court works through cat paws, killing Thomas directly (even if he disappeared) would be seen as a sign of weakness. Lord Raith wasn't able to deal with his son indirectly. Having him die of his own stupidity would work much better for Lord Raith. The problem is that Thomas was hiding his power and knowledge and kept on surviving.

[Dina]

I agree with Raith trying to kill Thomas indirectly but I am not sure Raith knows that Margaret fueled the spell with her blood lineage. Otherwise I think he would have killed Thomas. I do not know if he knew Margaret had another son.

[g33k]

I think the idea that there is a Fallen Angel trapped inside each Blackened Denarius was pretty well established by the end of Death Masks, which is what? Book five?

Yes, that's the seed planted.

That the Swords are the same thing -- being their exact opposite -- is (in retrospect) obviously-implied.

[Mira]

I agree with Raith trying to kill Thomas indirectly but I am not sure Raith knows that Margaret fueled the spell with her blood lineage. Otherwise I think he would have killed Thomas. I do not know if he knew Margaret had another son.

I agree, I don't think Raith knows how Margaret fueled her death curse.  If it were as simple as her bloodline, then it makes no sense not to just kill Thomas.. If Raith can still breed, he could still get a male heir..  I also doubt that he hadn't kept track of Margaret's younger child, and one wonders why he didn't arrange for young Harry's death at some point as well. 

[Talby16]

I agree, I don't think Raith knows how Margaret fueled her death curse.  If it were as simple as her bloodline, then it makes no sense not to just kill Thomas.. If Raith can still breed, he could still get a male heir..  I also doubt that he hadn't kept track of Margaret's younger child, and one wonders why he didn't arrange for young Harry's death at some point as well.

Raith states in Blood Rites that he worked out what Margaret Sr did. We don't know when he worked it out, only that he knows.

Lord Raith is running on an empty tank constantly. He is not able to feed deeply to replenish himself. He would not be up to a prolonged physical battle. Thomas could draw upon his hunger to heal far more often that Lord Raith can. Thus, Raith avoided any direct confrontation with his son. He can't just walk up to him and kill him because Thomas could potential heal and overcome him. He can't do anything to overt to kill Thomas like have in his own household becuase if Thomas dies under his roof (violence, poison, etc) then Lord Raith looks weak for not protecting his family. If he tries something violent outside the home (ex drive by shooting) and he fails then Thomas might come gunning for him or if he succeeds and it is traced back to him he looks weak because he didn't kill Thomas subtly. Subtle behind the scene machinations is what the White Court is supposed to excel in. Anything too overt and Lord Raith looks weak and there may be a coup. That is why he sends Thomas on dangerous missions such as the White Court representative to The Red Court party hoping that Thomas' perceived incompetence will get him killed. I still think that one of the reasons Lord Raith kept Thomas alive was to draw his brother out so that he could be more easily disposed of.

As far as Harry goes, we do not know at what point Lord Raith discovered that he was the son of Maggie Sr. He most likely knew that she had another son, but Maggie had left him before she had Harry. I'm sure she took steps to protect Harry and Malcom. Even if Lord Raith was trying to follow her trail to find Harry, we know that Justin made Harry disappear when Malcom died and then he was on Eb's farm under the eye of the Blackstaff. By the time Harry reappeared in the public eye when he set up shop in Chicago he was several steps removed from his previous life.

[g33k]

... I kind of remember that also from the book, however I find it odd that he wasn't aware that Margaret was about to give birth or had just given birth when he killed her ...

I don't think he knew where she was; if he had, he'd likely have killed her more-directly, and sooner.

I've got a theory that the curse that killed her had been lurking for a while:

Margaret made a deal (with the Leanansidhe) for the protection of her baby.  She died the moment Harry was born... "just like magic."

Harry inside Margaret, before birth, means Margaret herself was also protected; but the instant his life was no longer tied to her (I presume cutting the umbilicus) Lea's protections upon Harry no longer protected Margaret, and the entropy-curse killed her.

Which, in turn, implies that the curse was just lurking, waiting until the protective Veil was lifted (not cast then to kill then).

Though of course it's also possible that Lea had previously let Raith know that Margaret had an impenetrable protection, but that it would be ending "soon," and that she explicitly tattled to Raith when it did; far better for her twisted Faerie Godmother Complex to get rid of the parent(s)!

I'm pretty certain Lea was involved in either Margaret's death, or Malcolm's, or both.

[Tinfoil hat]

I don't think he knew where she was; if he had, he'd likely have killed her more-directly, and sooner.

I've got a theory that the curse that killed her had been lurking for a while:

Margaret made a deal (with the Leanansidhe) for the protection of her baby.  She died the moment Harry was born... "just like magic."

Harry inside Margaret, before birth, means Margaret herself was also protected; but the instant his life was no longer tied to her (I presume cutting the umbilicus) Lea's protections upon Harry no longer protected Margaret, and the entropy-curse killed her.

Which, in turn, implies that the curse was just lurking, waiting until the protective Veil was lifted (not cast then to kill then).

Though of course it's also possible that Lea had previously let Raith know that Margaret had an impenetrable protection, but that it would be ending "soon," and that she explicitly tattled to Raith when it did; far better for her twisted Faerie Godmother Complex to get rid of the parent(s)!

I'm pretty certain Lea was involved in either Margaret's death, or Malcolm's, or both.

I have a crazy theory that Margie Sr knew she was going to die, sooner or later. So the theory that the spell was hanging over her makes sense to me. So her deal to protect harry could have included her surviving to raise her.Considering the la fey nickname she could have made a better deal than the one she made. But i think for some reason she knew she wasn't the right person to raise Harry. Or she knew that Her enemies not just lord raith would not rest until she was dead. So she decided her death was best for Harry.

On the other hand, its selfish of her to give birth to harry at all

[Mira]

I have a crazy theory that Margie Sr knew she was going to die, sooner or later. So the theory that the spell was hanging over her makes sense to me. So her deal to protect harry could have included her surviving to raise her.Considering the la fey nickname she could have made a better deal than the one she made. But i think for some reason she knew she wasn't the right person to raise Harry. Or she knew that Her enemies not just lord raith would not rest until she was dead. So she decided her death was best for Harry.

On the other hand, its selfish of her to give birth to harry at all

Actually I think you are pretty close to the truth.  I think Margaret knew she was a dead woman walking the moment she left Lord Raith.  I think she did plan on birthing a star baby after she met Malcolm, and planned out how to keep it safe with Mab and Lea.. I think what is going to really piss Harry off is the bargain Margaret made with Mab, i.e. that the child would grow up to be Mab's knight among other things.

No, I don't think it was selfish for Margaret to give birth to Harry, she didn't do it for herself.

[Talby16]

I have a crazy theory that Margie Sr knew she was going to die, sooner or later. So the theory that the spell was hanging over her makes sense to me. So her deal to protect harry could have included her surviving to raise her. Considering the la fey nickname she could have made a better deal than the one she made. But i think for some reason she knew she wasn't the right person to raise Harry. Or she knew that Her enemies not just lord raith would not rest until she was dead. So she decided her death was best for Harry.

On the other hand, its selfish of her to give birth to harry at all

Actually I think you are pretty close to the truth.  I think Margaret knew she was a dead woman walking the moment she left Lord Raith.  I think she did plan on birthing a star baby after she met Malcolm, and planned out how to keep it safe with Mab and Lea.. I think what is going to really piss Harry off is the bargain Margaret made with Mab, i.e. that the child would grow up to be Mab's knight among other things.

No, I don't think it was selfish for Margaret to give birth to Harry, she didn't do it for herself.

The only problem I see with some of these theories is that according to the author (see WOJ below), Maggie Sr was in a rush when she made her deal with Lea. I agree that she had to know that as soon as she left Lord Raith that she was on a ticking clock. Her deal with Lea being a rush deal is at odds with taking the time to plan everything out like intentionally having a Starborn child and seeing to his welfare after her death.
WOJ:

Q:  Should Harry’s first deal with Lea been covered by Maggie’s deal?
A:  Not really.  One problem is that Harry dealt with Lea the way that one would deal with another human, so he really didn’t get much out of the bargain besides some confidence.  Lea gave him the “magic feather” so to speak.
And, Maggie could have done a little better job on her deal with Lea, but she was kind of in a rush, so she wasn’t as detailed as she should have been.
2009 Kansas City Q&A @37:15

I think it is likely that although Maggie Sr knew she was going to run afoul of Lord Raith, she was committed to trying to raise Harry herself until something happened. Maybe Raith started closing in, maybe a deal fell through, or protection wore off and she knew that she had no time left. That lead to her rushed deal with Lea for protection for Harry.

Additionally, I don't think Maggie Sr could have made a bargain with Mab for Harry to be her knight. Number 1, being the knight is a choice. Mab could not guarantee that Harry would become knight because Harry may not have chosen to be the white knight. If he resists her by saying no than that would be a bargain unfulfilled which may have repercussions for Mab. Number 2, Mab makes choices that benefit winter and its mission as a whole and Mab's scales always balance. Maggie Sr could have tried to bargain for Harry to be in line for the knight, but Mab would have had to receive something of equal value for the scales to balance. What did Maggie Sr have, knowing she was about to die, to give Mab that was of equal worth to protection and a future job for Harry? Why would Mab do this bargain when Harry was either not born or just a baby not knowing if he would have magic, what kind of magic talent he would have, or what his temperament would be? For all Mab knew Harry could have been born a vanilla mortal since magic is not always passed. Sure a starborn wizard would be great, but that would still be a risky proposition for Mab not knowing anything about Harry. Number 3, we know for sure that Maggie Sr made a deal with Lea specifically for Harry's protection. If she already had a deal or was going to make a deal with Mab, why did she make one with Lea? One deal with Mab could have covered everything. Number 4, why would Mab need to do a bargain like this? She is perfectly capable (as we saw in the books) of ensnaring who she wants to be her knight. Mab has no need to bargain with Maggie Sr. for Harry's service when she can just wait, choose him once he has proven himself capable, and then ensnare him like she did.

[Mira]

[quoteThe only problem I see with some of these theories is that according to the author (see WOJ below), Maggie Sr was in a rush when she made her deal with Lea. I agree that she had to know that as soon as she left Lord Raith that she was on a ticking clock. Her deal with Lea being a rush deal is at odds with taking the time to plan everything out like intentionally having a Starborn child and seeing to his welfare after her death.
WOJ:quote]

White Night page 363 Lash to Harry

"It isrelevant," Lasciel said, "because of the circumstances of your birth--because of whyyou were born, Harry.  Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason.

Then further down on the page Lash goes deeper into the complexities on conceiving a star child... So based on this Harry's birth was planned.

Additionally, I don't think Maggie Sr could have made a bargain with Mab for Harry to be her knight. Number 1, being the knight is a choice. Mab could not guarantee that Harry would become knight because Harry may not have chosen to be the white knight. If he resists her by saying no than that would be a bargain unfulfilled which may have repercussions for Mab.

If you read the interaction between Harry and Mab from Summer Knight until Changes, it becomes obvious that Mab has a huge thumb on the scale and is fairly confident that Harry would end up as her Knight.  Mab always plays the long game, she is also good at moving the goal posts when she needs to..  She did this often in Harry's case, he'd think he fulfilled on of the conditions for the bargain that he had made, only to find not so much..

A star born Winter Knight who was also a wizard more than balances out any deal Margaret made with Mab.. You are forgetting Margaret knew exactly why she conceived Harry, as did Mab.. Keeping her child alive and safe from Lord Raith would have been enough for a mother, getting a future Knight worth having would be enough for Mab.. Making Lea godmother was a bit of a deception.. Yes, Mab knew exactly what she wanted in a Knight, and was willing to wait until the child grew up.. If Harry was a dud, since Lea was the godmother,  Mab loses nothing, she wasn't involved.. Once Harry began to show promise, and Mab needs to test him herself, she decides to take over his contract with Lea?  Really?  Or was it always planned thus?  I think this is why when he finds out the details Harry is pissed, because he really never had a choice.