Considering we have now seen a Titan, a proto-god who seemingly still had access to her power (rather than down-sized like Odin), I have wondered if that was the sort-of threat Cowl would have been after a successful Darkhallow - I shall call this hypothetical being God-Cowl. Please feel free to come up with a better term.Yep, he'd have probably skipped the dramatic invasion bits to go pop the right nine substations to annihilate the United States.
We know that God-Cowl would have had the necessary horsepower, in terms of at least raw magical strength if not physical strength (although I think it's all intertwined at that level) to defeat Mab. This was from a WOJ from years ago in a online Q&A.
Back in Dead Beat, Harry thought the Darkhallow would be more power than a mortal had held in more than a millennia. I believe Mab thought it was more than in the memory of humanity, which is significantly longer. Harry called this being a junior-league god. I am not entirely sure what a major-league god would be...my thoughts tend toward Zeus, Mother Winter, Uriel, a fully powered-up Odin, perhaps Balor, etc.
So based on what we have here is a being stronger than Mab yet weaker than a major god. Which does seem to be about where Ethniu sits.
God-Cowl was also the kind of being that could have broken into the White Council headquarters at Edinburgh and the hospital in Dead Beat that the Merlin had turned into a fortress due to his "fancy wards". God-Cowl would have supposedly been so much stronger than the White Council as to be beyond their reach. Power enough to shape the world.
Also, this one's for you Mira, when Harry talks with Mab she actually confirms that the White Council struck down Kemmler as he was attempting the Darkhallow. This is in Dead Beat when she reveals what the Word of Kemmler is.
Now Ethniu isn't a slouch though. We saw her take on several demigods (Mab, Titania, the Erlking, and Vadderung - technically that's his power level it seems even if he is the remnants of a major god). Yes, she was also wearing her Denial Armour, but still. She also had no issue with Ebenezer, Cristos, River Shoulders, Listens-to-Wind, the Archive, etc. And even though the Knights of the Cross and Harry did the most damage with their super-crit damage holy weapons, she still kept going. Although one could argue the biggest damage was actually from Gungnir with Odin/Vadderung's direction. Even Marcone with all his "new" power and toys didn't do much but slow her slightly. And this doesn't even mention that the only two people who actually took a hit from the Eye of Balor, the magical superweapon of mass destruction, were Mab and Titania. And Titania mostly just redirected the energy while dampening the local magical energy, while Mab only partially blocked it so she only ended up burnt out and withered rather than completely annihilated.
To me, God-Cowl would have been slightly weaker. Now superweapon or armour of invulnerability. However, I suspect as he was fully powered up and new he would have had a bit of extra juice, which might have meant his base magical level was stronger. Also, Cowl is a far better tactician. Yes, he lost to Harry...when Harry blew up his highly delicate extremely explosive spell/ritual. Otherwise he hasn't yet lost a straight fight, and almost killed or severely maimed Dresden several times. Beyond that, he is smart enough ever after meeting Harry to not have direct contact again and send assassins and monsters etc.
I suspect if Cowl had become a god. He would have been a far worse threat than Ethniu. I doubt he would have done a big, messy, invade humanity battle type thing. No, he would have murdered humanities protectors one by one, in the shadows. He would have taken out the Senior Council, and therefore the White Council as a whole by extension. He would have destroyed their allies too, like the Venatori Umbrorum. Perhaps even the Librarians. Not to mention whatever competition was around, the Vampire Courts, the Archive, etc. Join or die, just like Ethniu.
Considering his tactics in Dead Beat like shutting down the power, communications of all levels, etc - just like Ethniu did, I suspect he probably would have been smarter and more targeted. Why create a magical dead spot when you could just take out the power stations and the communication towers and satellites? Yes, radio would still work but perhaps he might have some spell for that. Especially at god level. That much confusion...it would be a danger all on it's own and he would never need reveal himself until the chaos was overwhelming...and then assert himself (if that was his aim) over the planet.
Not to mention whatever monsters and villains chose to side with him that he could use as his armies and death squads.
Hell, he might have used his newfound powers to control people and launch nukes. I doubt that even would have occurred to Ethniu.
As for dark god Cowl vs Ethniu. I don't think he'd have a problem. Summon some Outsiders, and some demons to keep her busy, and then open a portal to the Outside to knock her into. No more Ethniu.I do not think you can just summon a portal to the outside.
Yep, he'd have probably skipped the dramatic invasion bits to go pop the right nine substations to annihilate the United States.Yeah, you have to admire his his pragmatism in Dead Beat. I wouldn't mind seeing someone do some sort of infrastructure attack in the series. Probably won't happen until the BAT though.
And on Cowl vs the eye, we've seen that he can teleport out of the way real fast when he needs to. He might have been able to pull off the same sort of trick Marcone did and dodge the eye.
I doubt Cowl after the Darkhollow would be in Ethniu's weight class. Cowl is undoubtedly smarter and might win due to Ethniu being stupid. Ethniu also was stronger than normal due to the magic armor, the eye and the extra magic available due to the fear by the people of Chicago boosting her power. Just as Mab is a lot more powerful than the Erlking. As a human matador can bring down a bull in a bullfight. Cowl might be able to defeat Ethniu. Harry was able to do that with help. Cowl might in Mab's weight class though. I think it would be how big the Darkhollow was and how much Cowl was able to take in.Fair enough point. But then again, Cowl needs enough divine power to get through her Titan Armour and I truly don't know if he would have enough. From the sound of it in Battle Ground, nothing short of the biggest/most powerful beings can actually do it. Like Archangel level, Zeus level etc. Obvs TWG. Even without it...would he have enough muscle and experience etc to win that sort of fight? He'd be playing at a whole new level.
Cowl by far. Ethniu wasn't actually that impressive. Without her armor that was built by someone else, and the eye which was also built by someone else she didn't really do anything that impressive. Her fight with Odin, Erlking, and Titania was impressive but could she have pulled it off without the armor? I don't think so. When she faced off against Marcone, and Dresden after losing the Eye, what did she do that was impressive? Mental manipulation? telekinesis? Anything? She actually jumped into the water to retrieve the Eye rather than use any kind of power. Her talent without the Eye, and Armor seems limited.I get what you're saying about Ethniu ending up being a bit underwhelming. However, she had a strong start which was cool. Her tactics were poor, her strategy wasn't very well thought out, her abilities and tools/weapons were not quite as strong as expected. However, she did hold out against quite a lot of power for a while. Her fight with the demigods was interesting. Not sure if she would have won without the armour. However I am sure she had more power than they did, even without the armour. She was a BIG deal..
She displayed enhanced speed, strength, and durability but didn't really display much power without the tools she had obtained.
Dark god Cowl would be a different animal entirely. Lets look at what he would have:
Wizard: Wizards have the power to control nature, and manipulate reality itself. Bending Beings to their will, controlling demons, and summoning Outsiders. They can raise the undead, and manipulate time. Wizards are really only limited by the power they can call on, and their mortal bodies. Cowl after the Dark Hollow would no longer have those limitations.
The Erlking: The Dark Hollow requires the Wild Hunt, and Cowl would absorb all of it, including the Erlking. This would be a great bit of power on it's own, but also (in theory) make Cowl an immortal. Just as Erlking took lethal damage from Ethniu, he began to heal right away.
Pure power: Cowl would consume the shades of not just the people killed by the Dark Hollow, he'd also absorb the power of the shades that had been there for hundreds of millions of years. This would be an incredible amount of pure power.
So Cowl would have the wizard toolbox of abilities + the Erlking's powers and immortality, + the raw power of millions of years worth of shades. Ethniu used the Eye to bring down buildings, Cowl could have brought down the entire city with a powerful earthquake. Or turned the city into a raging inferno. He could have began raising an undead army that killed the people in the city, and raise everyone who died, creating an every growing undead army. He could have caused widespread blackouts... The destruction he could have caused would have been limited only by his imagination.
At the end of the day I think it comes down to abilities. Ethniu's danger was one dimensional. Sure it was an incredibly powerful weapon, but it was still a single type of attack. A wizard who is super juiced up can do just about anything.
Mab said it would create a dark god, and I think she was literal. An immortal wizard with that much power wouldn't be limited by Mantle's rules. It would be pure power that Cowl could manipulate in any way that he wanted.
As for dark god Cowl vs Ethniu. I don't think he'd have a problem. Summon some Outsiders, and some demons to keep her busy, and then open a portal to the Outside to knock her into. No more Ethniu.Assuming Outsiders are not on her team of course. She did seem to be friends with them. Interesting idea about the portal. Only mortals can summon Outsiders so I suspect only a mortal could make a portal, assuming such things exist.
Interesting idea about the portal. Only mortals can summon Outsiders so I suspect only a mortal could make a portal, assuming such things exist.
Yeah, you have to admire his his pragmatism in Dead Beat. I wouldn't mind seeing someone do some sort of infrastructure attack in the series. Probably won't happen until the BAT though.They won't happen because they're just too powerful against humans unfortunately.
Can Cowl teleport? I can't say I remember him doing that in Dead Beat...was it in another book? I am sure a couple of wizards, perhaps Cowl included, can pull off the point-to-point translocation (teleport) trick. Mostly Senior Council but possibly others, some perhaps hiding from the Council. I am almost certain Eb can do it, and likely the Gatekeeper. Although I suspect that Namshiel helps with the knowledge gap for Marcone, I wonder if there are side-effects he hasn't mentioned or dangers he has downplayed. Even if other wizards CAN do it, they might have very good reasons NOT to teleport.
Cowl's fingers formed into a rigid claw and he snarled a word I couldn't quite hear, slashing at the air.
There was a surge of power, darker this time, somehow more nebulous. The air around them blurred, there was the sudden scent of mildew and lightless waters, a sighing sound, and as quickly as that, they were simply gone.
I would think it would be possible to create a portal. The gates are in the Never Never and so I assume the Outside is also part of the Never Never, thus you just need to create a portal to the Never Never.There seems to be some limitation with outsiders. It is mentioned several times that only humans can summon them. If Maeve could have created that gate she would have done so.
There seems to be some limitation with outsiders. It is mentioned several times that only humans can summon them. If Maeve could have created that gate she would have done so.
Also it would be too easy to end the world that way, some crazy god would have done so already.
Maeve to our knowledge was never a wizard, and the Mantle of Lady isn't a mortal one.
Uh yeah that's why dark wizards are beheaded the instant they cause trouble. Jim even said that the danger of warlocks is they can let Outsiders in.
It could be that Cowl would no longer be mortal and have some sort of restraint locked onto his abilities, but I don't know. I think that's what is so frightening about a successful Dark Hollow. The freedom of a mortal with the powers of an evil god.
Maeve to our knowledge was never a wizard, and the Mantle of Lady isn't a mortal one.She was pretty good at it. But I don't think it matters. Cowl would not be the first wizard to accomplish this. It was just a long time ago. I think the restriction comes with the power. I believe there is woj that the erlking became who he is by such a ritual.
Uh yeah that's why dark wizards are beheaded the instant they cause trouble. Jim even said that the danger of warlocks is they can let Outsiders in.They can summon them which is bad enough but a gate at a quiet place means they can stream in. That would be the end of reality as we know it. The council can never catch all warlocks and outsiders have internal support. If a warlock like cowl could do such a thing it would already be over. No gates.
It could be that Cowl would no longer be mortal and have some sort of restraint locked onto his abilities, but I don't know. I think that's what is so frightening about a successful Dark Hollow. The freedom of a mortal with the powers of an evil god.With that much power you loose your free will. I think that has something to do with the ability to summon outsiders.
I would think it would be possible to create a portal. The gates are in the Never Never and so I assume the Outside is also part of the Never Never, thus you just need to create a portal to the Never Never.Anything is possible with enough magic. Jim said once that if a being had enough power the only limit would be their imagination, they could rewrite the rules.
They won't happen because they're just too powerful against humans unfortunately.Indeed...but maybe toward the end we will see such things. I am pretty sure Cowl just opened a Way into the Nevernever. I could be wrong but that's how I read it, and it seemed consistent with his style of opening Ways. Particularly the mildew smell and lightless waters stuff.
As for Cowl teleporting, it's either that or a really quick hop into the NN.
There seems to be some limitation with outsiders. It is mentioned several times that only humans can summon them. If Maeve could have created that gate she would have done so.Agreed. If it were so easy the battle would already be lost. No, I think it is as you say, it takes a mortal to summon Outsiders.
Also it would be too easy to end the world that way, some crazy god would have done so already.
She was pretty good at it. But I don't think it matters. Cowl would not be the first wizard to accomplish this. It was just a long time ago. I think the restriction comes with the power. I believe there is woj that the erlking became who he is by such a ritual.Agreed. It's been hinted, actually stated I think, that mortals have become gods before. The graphic novel "Welcome to the Jungle" covers this a bit. That being said there are discrepancies. Jim has said that the Erlking and Hecate etc got big by doing such rituals. On the other hand, most recently he came out and said the gods existed before time. I am sure he will fill in some of the gaps soon but it is an issue currently.
And Cowl would not be mortal anymore either. If he gathered enough power. That is the whole point.
They can summon them which is bad enough but a gate at a quiet place means they can stream in. That would be the end of reality as we know it. The council can never catch all warlocks and outsiders have internal support. If a warlock like cowl could do such a thing it would already be over. No gates.
With that much power you loose your free will. I think that has something to do with the ability to summon outsiders.
Maeve to our knowledge was never a wizard, and the Mantle of Lady isn't a mortal one.True, it doesn't seem like Maeve was a mortal wizard. However, the Fae have a slightly different relationship with magic to mortals. Closer to the Forest People etc. So even before she was Winter Lady she was a changeling Fae and I don't doubt she had some magical abilities. Once she had chosen to be Fae I think she would have lost that little last remaining bit of mortality and with it, the potential to summon Outsiders.
Uh yeah that's why dark wizards are beheaded the instant they cause trouble. Jim even said that the danger of warlocks is they can let Outsiders in.
It could be that Cowl would no longer be mortal and have some sort of restraint locked onto his abilities, but I don't know. I think that's what is so frightening about a successful Dark Hollow. The freedom of a mortal with the powers of an evil god.
Ethniu lost due to several factors in my opinion. First being her anger, while anger might fuel the Eye, angry people don't always think clearly, plan, or think long term.. So she made missteps simply because she was pissed. She was over confident, and the Fomor didn't disabuse her of that feeling, so she committed the cardinal sin of under estimating her opponents. Third, though she was strong, she didn't strike me as being overly bright.. So yes, compared to Ethniu can see Cowl being as strong or stronger.That's fair. I think her rage and emotions definitely cost her even though as you point out, it fuelled some of her power and weapons. This is explored a bit with the Hellfire thing. Harry was stronger with Hellfire but he wasn't as deadly or focussed. Look how Hannah Ascher got beaten. I doubt the Fomor would have dared to comment on her rage. Even Listen wouldn't have been that bold.
But do you think that God-Cowl would have had as much or more magical muscle as Ethniu? Forget the tactics and issues for a moment, from a purely raw magical strength sense, how would you compare them Mira?
Some gods have been mortals does not mean all gods have been mortal.
Besides not every darkhallow will be equally successful. Some will gather more power than others. Though with human population larger than ever.
That is true, but what I am saying since Cowl wasn't successful in his attempt at becoming a god, we cannot compare raw power between them. It's god to wizard comparison, not god to god. It has nothing to do with whether one started out mortal or not.
I had a debate recently about whether the Erlking would have been consumed. In what I got from Dead Beat. Mab says the purpose of the Erlking is to summon those ancient hunter spirits/ghosts. It doesn't say anywhere about eating the Erlking as well. It seems like it would have made him immortal from spirits alone, which makes sense as all they are is power/energy.
But do you think that God-Cowl would have had as much or more magical muscle as Ethniu? Forget the tactics and issues for a moment, from a purely raw magical strength sense, how would you compare them Mira?
Well it can only be done on Halloween, when Immortals can die, and Mantles are known to be moved around. I suspect that's why.
I'm not Mira but a lot of what Ehniu was able to do was because of objects not created by her. The armor, and the Eye. She's undoubtedly powerful, but she had the armor for one reason, protection. She had the eye for one reason, destruction. If she was super duper powerful she wouldn't have needed either. She'd have just showed up, and beat down on everyone, and everything. Imagine if Mab had the Armor and the Eye, or Kringle...
So I'm doing with Cowl having more pure muscle than her after the Darkhallow.
Harry Dresden: What happens if one of his heirs is able to do it?
Mab: The heir would gain power such as has not been wielded by mortal hands in the memory of your race.
So pretty powerful.
Given that we can destroy the world with Nukes that gives us an idea of scale (I'm assuming Mab would consider the Muggles in this as well?)She was talking about personal magical power. I do not think she considered nuclear bombs.
I'm not Mira but a lot of what Ehniu was able to do was because of objects not created by her. The armor, and the Eye. She's undoubtedly powerful, but she had the armor for one reason, protection. She had the eye for one reason, destruction. If she was super duper powerful she wouldn't have needed either. She'd have just showed up, and beat down on everyone, and everything. Imagine if Mab had the Armor and the Eye, or Kringle...
Pure strength? Hard to say, on one hand Ethniu was born a goddess, so has a lot more experience at it than god/Cowl would have, that I think gives her an edge. We saw her totally slam Mab in Peace Talks, and I think one could consider her on par power wise to a god/Cowl.. But in the end when she got her act together, Ethniu couldn't take Mab out. If gods get some of their power from the worship of followers Ethniu might also have an edge over Cowl because he wouldn't have a power base of faith to draw from. Other than that I don't know how you can compare, we've seen goddess/Titan Ethniu in action, Cowl failed to complete the Dark Hallow, so he never became a god.Yes, I daresay Ethniu might have a bit more experience wielding her power. I think God-Cowl was meant to be stronger than Mab (although that doesn't necessarily mean he would beat her...Mab is like Harry in that she can fight outside her weight class and win). Would Ethniu have many worshippers left? She wasn't a prominent god even in Irish folklore. Perhaps a few dregs here and there. Nothing compared to a far more famous deity like Hades. And yet, it's clearly not the only factor either.
But wizard verses goddess one on one? I think the goddess wins.
We still have no clue as to just how strong Cowl would be either.. He still might need shielding of some kind, and we don't know if he could generate enough juice to power the Eye.Agreed. Our only frame of reference is Mab as Jim specifically said God-Cowl would have been stronger. But it's difficult to gauge how much. Even if he could wield the Eye, he might choose not to. Who knows what side effects come from it. At the very least you have to sacrifice your own eye.
Some gods have been mortals does not mean all gods have been mortal.Very true, and I think it's a really important point. Ethniu had FAR more respect for a god that was "born" a god than beings that became gods. The respect she had for Vadderung compared to her disregard/disgust/hatred for the others demigods was noticeable.
Besides not every darkhallow will be equally successful. Some will gather more power than others. Though with human population larger than ever.
Given that we can destroy the world with Nukes that gives us an idea of scale (I'm assuming Mab would consider the Muggles in this as well?)I think Arjan is correct in that it was about personal magical might, rather than potential weapons. Let's say Mab could find a weapon that froze the Earth in an eternal winter blizzard. Yes it makes Mab incredibly powerful to have such a weapon, but unless it's her personal magic, it doesn't mean she herself has apocalyptic power. I mean, she could always stop defending the Gates and forfeit Reality - but aside from that it would be a pyrrhic victory it still isn't her power. It's an important difference I think. Besides, destructive power isn't necessarily the most potent expression of power. A god could do things like change the laws of nature or create new ones, maybe even new worlds. Cowl even discussed "ending" death. That's FAR more powerful than simply being able to devastate an area.
Well it can only be done on Halloween, when Immortals can die, and Mantles are known to be moved around. I suspect that's why.To my understanding, and I could well be wrong, but the entire point of doing it on Halloween is that the states between being mortal and immortal are not fixed and so allow beings to go from one state to another. In any case, I think Cowl would hardly need to have been able to eat the Erlking to become a god. The sheer amount of spirits plus the deaths of all those mortals...the Erlking barely factors in at that scale.
I'm not Mira but a lot of what Ehniu was able to do was because of objects not created by her. The armor, and the Eye. She's undoubtedly powerful, but she had the armor for one reason, protection. She had the eye for one reason, destruction. If she was super duper powerful she wouldn't have needed either. She'd have just showed up, and beat down on everyone, and everything. Imagine if Mab had the Armor and the Eye, or Kringle...
So I'm doing with Cowl having more pure muscle than her after the Darkhallow.
Harry Dresden: What happens if one of his heirs is able to do it?
Mab: The heir would gain power such as has not been wielded by mortal hands in the memory of your race.
So pretty powerful.
Well, I am only comparing them hypothetically. But you never know...God-Cowl might still happen. I doubt Cowl will give up after one attempt. The real question is why he hasn't already. It's been years and years.
That is an interesting point, why hasn't Cowl tried again? At first you don't succeed, type of thing, unless of course there is more to it than we are being told. Is it something you only get one shot at? For example, Hades told Harry that to keep the artifacts/weapons out of the hands of those not smart enough,wise enough, or strong enough to wield them, being able to find and get them is the test.. And they make that damn hard, maybe that is why Marcone/Namshiel didn't try for the Spear when Harry was exhausted after using it to corral Ethniu? Harry passed the test, Marcone hasn't proven worthy yet, and even Namshiel respects that. Supposed if you want godhood the same criteria applies? Cowl got his chance and he missed the mark, so no godhood for him..Because it takes a lot of effort to set everything up and then you have to find away to distract everyone who wants to stop you. It is not easy to set up and Cowl probably still has some time left.
Because it takes a lot of effort to set everything up and then you have to find away to distract everyone who wants to stop you. It is not easy to set up and Cowl probably still has some time left.
That is an interesting point, why hasn't Cowl tried again? At first you don't succeed, type of thing, unless of course there is more to it than we are being told. Is it something you only get one shot at? For example, Hades told Harry that to keep the artifacts/weapons out of the hands of those not smart enough,wise enough, or strong enough to wield them, being able to find and get them is the test.. And they make that damn hard, maybe that is why Marcone/Namshiel didn't try for the Spear when Harry was exhausted after using it to corral Ethniu? Harry passed the test, Marcone hasn't proven worthy yet, and even Namshiel respects that. Supposed if you want godhood the same criteria applies? Cowl got his chance and he missed the mark, so no godhood for him..Could be that Fate only gives you a certain amount of shots. Perhaps other factors are keeping him busy. Or it could be that he is still badly damaged from the last attempt. Namshiel, and other such beings, have a very different perspective on time and space. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Namshiel has larger cosmic reasons for not trying to take Dresden's weapons. It could also be that because Marcone is mortal, ultimately he is in the driving seat. I imagine that must gall the Fallen to no end. Perhaps the Coins are a sort-of ironic punishment.
Because it takes a lot of effort to set everything up and then you have to find away to distract everyone who wants to stop you. It is not easy to set up and Cowl probably still has some time left.Perhaps that's true. But he had a whole new war to distract the Council with after the Vampire-Wizard war ended. So I'd say it isn't just that.
But also I think that by this time Cowl is no longer his own master. The outsiders puppet he is. They might have other priorities.
Could be that Fate only gives you a certain amount of shots. Perhaps other factors are keeping him busy. Or it could be that he is still badly damaged from the last attempt. Namshiel, and other such beings, have a very different perspective on time and space. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Namshiel has larger cosmic reasons for not trying to take Dresden's weapons. It could also be that because Marcone is mortal, ultimately he is in the driving seat. I imagine that must gall the Fallen to no end. Perhaps the Coins are a sort-of ironic punishment.
Yeah, I am wondering if there are lines that the Fallen cannot cross. They are trapped in their coins and must do their thing through mortals. Harry earned the right to wield the Spear, as we were told by Hades, there are rules regarding the Spear and the other artifacts. Both the Spear and the Eye were there for the taking, Harry was in no condition to stop them.. So why didn't they take them?Mab. They could not take them without her noticing it and taking his possessions under those circumstances would have made her angry.
Yeah, I am wondering if there are lines that the Fallen cannot cross. They are trapped in their coins and must do their thing through mortals. Harry earned the right to wield the Spear, as we were told by Hades, there are rules regarding the Spear and the other artifacts. Both the Spear and the Eye were there for the taking, Harry was in no condition to stop them.. So why didn't they take them?Well the main one is that they cannot take Free Will. The other one is that the can only tempt. And it seems only the Fallen trapped in the Denarian Coins can express their power.
Mab. They could not take them without her noticing it and taking his possessions under those circumstances would have made her angry.I think Mira was talking about cosmic limitations, not political rules of engagment. Don't get me wrong that's a fair enough theory on its own though. Then again, Mab does seem to have a "if you lost it, you failed to protect it" sort of attitude with Harry. Quite a different matter if they stole from a place like Arctis Tor...
I think Mira was talking about cosmic limitations, not political rules of engagment. Don't get me wrong that's a fair enough theory on its own though. Then again, Mab does seem to have a "if you lost it, you failed to protect it" sort of attitude with Harry. Quite a different matter if they stole from a place like Arctis Tor...People like Odin, Hades, Mab, ...
People like Odin, Hades, Mab, ...
They want it in Harry’s hands because he has the right mix of power and free will to make the most use of it in the crisis to come.
And Mab does protect Harry against some threats. Not against minor threats he should handle himself or results of his own stupidity but big threats as a result of his service to her are different. She won’t give more help than necessary and she won’t be to obvious about it most of the time but she did warn Lara about eating Harry for example.
"But why lock them away where anyone with enough resources can get them?" I asked.Harry gets it...
"To prevent anyone without the skill or the commitment to use them well from having them,"he said. " It is not my task to keep them from all of mortal kind---only from the incompetents."
Then I got it, and understanding made the bottom of my stomach drop out. This whole mess. . .it was an audition?"
"It is not my place," Hades said. "I wish you good fortune, and will hope you triumph. But even if we yet lived in the age where my will could guide the course of destiny, it is not for the Lord of Death to take sides in this struggle. The fate of the weapons you have found must be decided by those who found them."
People like Odin, Hades, Mab, ...That's true, but the Fallen aren't chumps either. Arguably the Fallen (not just the Denarians, the whole lot of them) are a far scarier threat than Winter, Odin, Hades etc.
They want it in Harry’s hands because he has the right mix of power and free will to make the most use of it in the crisis to come.
And Mab does protect Harry against some threats. Not against minor threats he should handle himself or results of his own stupidity but big threats as a result of his service to her are different. She won’t give more help than necessary and she won’t be to obvious about it most of the time but she did warn Lara about eating Harry for example.
Hades did have a couple of things to say about the artifacts, as did Harry as to why he was on the mission. Mab may want the artifacts in Harry's hands, but it isn't that simple.
I think Hades also answers the question as to why neither Marcone nor Namshiel went for the Spear.
So I take that to mean, Harry found the weapons, he took the weapons, he is the one who uses them and decides their fate. Marcone/Namshiel did neither so they cannot.. Hmmm.... Wonder if that goes for the Grail as well? Harry decided it's fate by giving it to Nic, but Nic didn't find it, can he use it?
That's true, but the Fallen aren't chumps either. Arguably the Fallen (not just the Denarians, the whole lot of them) are a far scarier threat than Winter, Odin, Hades etc.The fallen are limited in many ways and Mab knows how they are limited. She also has worked with Uriel before. Odin also has regular lunches with Uriel so there is more going on behind the scenes with him.
So it's a risk-reward problem. If the Denarians were determined enough I don't think they would care one iota about Hades or Odin or Mab. Depends on what the value of such items were to them. World-ending apocalypse stuff, especially if it was the only way or if it was a sure-fire victory, seems like it would something they would do anything to get.
Map protects her territory. If Harry is a key part of that she protects him. If it risks her name and reputation she protects him.It was simply don’t eat him, not even nibble. Just to make sure she understood. Mab would see it as an attack on her court and rightly so because Harry was there in his official function and Lara was supposed to be an ally and probably a hundred other reasons.
The Lara thing is interesting. Was she warning her not to make Harry a White Court thrall? Or perhaps simply not to kill her valuable Knight? Or perhaps most interestingly, she was warning her not to steal the power of the mantle of the Winter Knight. I don't that Lara could do that...but she does feed on energy. So I wouldn't rule it out either. Who knows, maybe Mab was warning against all of the above. That seems more her style.
Yes, this could work as well. I found that a very intriguing line. When the Greek Gods were running things, their will DID guide the course of destiny. What changed? I'll bet dollars to donuts it was around the time of Christ. Question really is - why?It was probably somewhat later depending on where. What changed? Human belief and their stories changed so the supernatural and how they expressed themselves had to change.
That's true, but the Fallen aren't chumps either. Arguably the Fallen (not just the Denarians, the whole lot of them) are a far scarier threat than Winter, Odin, Hades etc.I see it quite differently.
So it's a risk-reward problem. If the Denarians were determined enough I don't think they would care one iota about Hades or Odin or Mab. Depends on what the value of such items were to them. World-ending apocalypse stuff, especially if it was the only way or if it was a sure-fire victory, seems like it would something they would do anything to get.
The fallen are limited in many ways and Mab knows how they are limited. She also has worked with Uriel before. Odin also has regular lunches with Uriel so there is more going on behind the scenes with him.True, but not totally limited. Even the ones in the Denarian Coins. Lucifer (well actually, one of his lieutenants according to WOJ) was able to power the Denarian Signs used to capture Marcone and the Archive. Yes, Uriel responded. But clearly the Fallen are able to act to some degree. The Denarians asked for the aid of Hell's Fallen and they got it. Mab reacts to the Denarians (as in the combination of Fallen in the Coin and the bearer). Uriel reacts to the Fallen, specifically.
If the fallen start to do something like that they are bound to get a reaction. It was simply don’t eat him, not even nibble. Just to make sure she understood. Mab would see it as an attack on her court and rightly so because Harry was there in his official function and Lara was supposed to be an ally and probably a hundred other reasons.
It was probably somewhat later depending on where. What changed? Human belief and their stories changed so the supernatural and how they expressed themselves had to change.
It is probably also geographical. The same forces may express differently in say southern India.
I see it quite differently.
Yes, the Fallen COULD try that. But then the un-fallen Angels would be able to come out and play at full strength, too. Blow for blow, hit for hit, and they would probably counter them about exactly.
Only about exactly, of course, but this rounding error is where people like Mab and Odin WOULD make a difference. Angels vs Fallen is probably about a 50:50 fight; Angels+Mab+Harry vs Fallen is 50+1:50.
No. No. And no...UNLESS....
Dark Hallow was performed on a greater scale than it was maybe if Erlking wizards more than the half dozen that were present... Maybe...absorbing life and spirits is key right? But you need power greater than what was on the battlefield. Mab Titania winter ladie.. winter knight Odin ErlKing eb with blackstaff..the Knights...etc... pretty sure Cowl was looking more toward a one-on-one with a big bad so he can do his own thing BUT NOBODY EXPECTS A TITAN
The arma Christi might have been around under other names before.Indeed, that's certainly possible. Any ideas on what?
She didn't face all of them. Her army fought most of them. She also had the Eye which wasn't hers, and Armor that wasn't really hers. We didn't get to see her fight as herself but instead her armed with super weapons.You know, I am not so sure about how I feel about that WOJ any more. I just don't see how it matches up with Hecate sponsoring the Fae or that Hecate and/possible other sponsors are older than mortals. It's not exactly mutually exclusive, but Ethniu seems to have existed before time began, and she seemed to be most enraged by Mother Winter's walking stick.
Question: cowl with darkhallow – really? just a bunch of spirits…
Answer: If he’d succeeded, he’d have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some. He’d have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab. I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual? Because that’s how the big E got so boss in the first place. :).. For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power? That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn’t there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.
Answer: If he’d succeeded, he’d have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some. He’d have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab. I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual? Because that’s how the big E got so boss in the first place. :).. For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power? That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn’t there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.
Is Jim implying that the Erlking used the Dark Hallow Ritual?The specific ritual? No. Generally eating things for power? Yes.
The specific ritual? No. Generally eating things for power? Yes.
But that doesn't always work out either, that is what the Nightmare did in Grave Peril.It must be on Halloween or some similar moment in space and time, otherwise it is just eating power and probably no mantle is constructed.
Didn't read the whole thread so maybe this has been said, but Eb at least also took a blast from the Eye. He had to draw upon the mantle attached to the blackstaff to redirect it iirc.No he took part of a blast from Gungnir and redirected it.
No he took part of a blast from Gungnir and redirected it.🤔 you sure about that? I remember ethniu trying to blast him and Ivy with the eye during the main showdown. When I say 'redirected' it might be calling upon the wrong scene. More of a sloughing.
🤔 you sure about that? I remember ethniu trying to blast him and Ivy with the eye during the main showdown. When I say 'redirected' it might be calling upon the wrong scene. More of a sloughing.
By the time the Mortals got involved Titania had already redirected the eye and turned the snowstorm into a rainstorm which showered away the ritual emotion that powered the eye. Ethniu then kicked Titania, the Erlking, and Odin's asses and stole gugnir from Odin. Eb took a lightning blast and did the same thing Yoda did to Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith (I'm almost certain it was meant as a direct reference).
Ethniu didn't really kick their asses, she just thought she did. They needed her to think that so they could get close enough to fight her. Odin let her take Gungnir from him, then when she tried to use it, he turned it against her with a blast to the face which enabled Lara to give her a kick to the back of the head to dislodge the Eye, then weakened and without her main weapon, Harry with Marcone/Namshiel's help come in on clean up and ship her to Demonreach.
Being reduced to a smoldering corpse or planted like a vegetable is a pretty thorough ass kicking. Odin knew he was going to lose so he took advantage of it by setting up the Gungnir trap.
Is Jim implying that the Erlking used the Dark Hallow Ritual?I don't believe so, although his wording is a little obscure. My interpretation is that the reason the Erlking is summoned is that the necromancers needed all those spirits, especially the really big old ones. It's what the Erlking does every time he rides. He summons the spirits of the old hunters.
Ethniu didn't really kick their asses, she just thought she did. They needed her to think that so they could get close enough to fight her. Odin let her take Gungnir from him, then when she tried to use it, he turned it against her with a blast to the face which enabled Lara to give her a kick to the back of the head to dislodge the Eye, then weakened and without her main weapon, Harry with Marcone/Namshiel's help come in on clean up and ship her to Demonreach.That's an interesting interpretation. Except, she was quite a bit stronger than any single one of them and wearing armour that made her nigh-invulnerable...
Also if being pummeled by Ethniu was all part of the plan he wouldn't be still mad six months after it.
Also if being pummeled by Ethniu was all part of the plan he wouldn't be still mad six months after it.Agreed. That man has a reputation to uphold!
Gotta say, the gungir scene was awesome. "Swayer" swayed the battle at just the right point... AlsoClever bit of wordplay on Jim's part. I too have wondered before about the connection between Zeus and Vadderung. The spear didn't have any associations with lightning really that I recall from my study of Norse mythology, and I was quite into it for a while. That being said often such tools are allegories for natural phenomena. Still, could well be a hint.(click to show/hide)
No lasting effects though, Odin seemed okay at the meeting. Also didn't Harry ask him as to whether he "allowed" him to kick his ass and Kringle replied something like did he want to go another round?Well, he is still a god. The Erlking started healing straight away too. But it's more about reputation as much as physical survival. When you live by your name and your deeds, protecting it is vital. Even if the story isn't true. So it would be bad to build a story on losing to Ethniu unless there was a longer term gain. Occam's razor - they lost to Ethniu.
If Zeus and Odin were one and the same, I wonder if that means there are actually less gods overall and they just go by a different names and identities to different cultures. A sort of original family of gods. Not saying this is the case though.that part has been confirmed per Woj. I factored in seracks grand unification theory(need to reread that soon)with it a long time ago. Originally thought Odin was Thor/Hercules taken on Zeus's mantle, but Thor apparently exists elsewhere in the DF. Him being a fraction of what he used to be would could be the connection though.
Well, he is still a god. The Erlking started healing straight away too. But it's more about reputation as much as physical survival. When you live by your name and your deeds, protecting it is vital. Even if the story isn't true. So it would be bad to build a story on losing to Ethniu unless there was a longer term gain. Occam's razor - they lost to Ethniu.
Agreed. That man has a reputation to uphold!
Clever bit of wordplay on Jim's part. I too have wondered before about the connection between Zeus and Vadderung. The spear didn't have any associations with lightning really that I recall from my study of Norse mythology, and I was quite into it for a while. That being said often such tools are allegories for natural phenomena. Still, could well be a hint.
If Zeus and Odin were one and the same, I wonder if that means there are actually less gods overall and they just go by a different names and identities to different cultures. A sort of original family of gods. Not saying this is the case though.
Well, he is still a god. The Erlking started healing straight away too. But it's more about reputation as much as physical survival. When you live by your name and your deeds, protecting it is vital. Even if the story isn't true. So it would be bad to build a story on losing to Ethniu unless there was a longer term gain. Occam's razor - they lost to Ethniu.
Exactly my point. Kringle allowed it once, but only once, and was saying "if you wanna see how it would really go down then step up". He let Harry win easily. And he did it so Harry had the necessary tools to defeat the Outsider attack on the Demonreach. So there was a clear gain too.
No, they didn't lose, as planned, Odin's spear blew up in her face and Lara kicked the Eye from her head, she limped off, weakened and set up for Harry to finish the job... I call that a win for the team. A loss would have been not succeeding in getting the Eye out of her head and thus Harry not able to ship her off to Demonreach, even with Marcone/Namshiel's help.
EDIT: Also, I just realised this answers my intial question. If Cowl with the darkhallow was a full-on equal to Mab, he isn't as strong as Ethniu. Ethniu was an order above Mab.
No, they didn't lose, as planned, Odin's spear blew up in her face and Lara kicked the Eye from her head, she limped off, weakened and set up for Harry to finish the job... I call that a win for the team. A loss would have been not succeeding in getting the Eye out of her head and thus Harry not able to ship her off to Demonreach, even with Marcone/Namshiel's help.
I thought it blew up in her face but I'm pretty sure it stated that it struck her like a snake. I think it stabbed her in the eye, and it caused an explosion.
And, twenty yards away, the swirl of battle stirred. and I saw One Eye's shadowy form on the ground where he had fallen. He lifted his head. He opened his eye. It gleamed like a smoldering coal in the shadow. And Odin, Father of the Aesir, spoke, his voice a deep resonance that shook the air with gentle power. "Gungnir." I knew the translation of the weapon's name, a bit of useless trivia that had stuck in my head. Swayer.A rune burst into scarlet light upon the Spear's blade. And like a snake, the weapon of the gods the Titian had stolen turned in her hand, whipping about with lightning speed. As it did, runes burst into light all along the length of the blade and haft alike, suddenly blazing with energy. And the weapon plunged with vicious, absolute precision into the Eye of Balor.
I also think it is very unlikely that Odin and the other planned to loose. But I do think it is very likely that he considered the risk of loosing and planned for mitigating the results of it.
The risk was quite high, Ethniu could have killed them with the eye when it was done recharging.
that part has been confirmed per Woj. I factored in seracks grand unification theory(need to reread that soon)with it a long time ago. Originally thought Odin was Thor/Hercules taken on Zeus's mantle, but Thor apparently exists elsewhere in the DF. Him being a fraction of what he used to be would could be the connection though.Has it? Are you referring to that WOJ about how the beings themselves don't change, just our understanding of who and what they are? Or some other WOJ. Because the first one isn't really evidence that Z=O. Not saying that Odin and Zeus are not the same being but I haven't yet seen a lot of hard evidence.
No, they didn't lose, as planned, Odin's spear blew up in her face and Lara kicked the Eye from her head, she limped off, weakened and set up for Harry to finish the job... I call that a win for the team. A loss would have been not succeeding in getting the Eye out of her head and thus Harry not able to ship her off to Demonreach, even with Marcone/Namshiel's help.I think I can see our point of contention. The overall outcome was that Ethniu was defeated and they contributed to it heavily, so therefore they won in that sense. What I am saying is that in a purely just those three gods vs Ethniu way, a microcosm of the battle, something like a WWE fight - they lost. They got the win because they had a trump card in an extra man hidden away armed with an insanely powerful set of weapons perfect for bringing down such a being. But it would be like if Ali was fighting Williams and knocks Williams out, and then some friend of Williams enters the ring and hit Ali over the head with a hammer. Would you say Williams one the fight, or his friend? Just for reference, Ali KO'd Williams in the third round and it was like watching an amateur get in the ring with a pro. It was brutal. There's probably better fights to illustrate the match-up between Ethniu and the gods, but you get the idea.
Well, Odin had a lot to do with that.. You're right, I was speaking metaphorically.So why didn't Odin just stab her when he had the Spear during the first fight he had with her? I mean, it clearly already had the ability...surely it's more powerful in the hands of it's rightful wielder? I fail to see any element of planning. It seemed more like a fail-safe move. Odin's not a loser, but he did lose a fight. Happens to plenty of great winners. But the best ones plan for that and have contingencies in place, just like Odin did. Where is the evidence from the text that Odin planned for her to pick up the Spear? It's conjecture otherwise.
That didn't happen by accident, it wasn't a desperate move from a loser, it was planned. The only way to get the Spear into position so it could take out the Eye was to trick Ethniu into thinking she had defeated Odin and taking the Spear for herself. She may have had it in her hand, but Odin had absolute control over it, all he had to do was say the word, and it did it's job.
I also think it is very unlikely that Odin and the other planned to loose. But I do think it is very likely that he considered the risk of loosing and planned for mitigating the results of it.Pretty much agree with all this. Don't forget none of them could harm her; only the Knights of the Sword, Marcone (with Namshiel), Harry (with the Spear of Destiny AND his Demonreach connection), and Vadderung/Odin's spear Gungnir had that power. Which suggest Vadderung does have enough divine power, or access to such power, via his spear. Why he lied about it I don't know. Perhaps he didn't want everyone to see his trump card. Perhaps it's another Soulfire thing. We know he has that after all. In fact, I'd bet it was exactly that.
The risk was quite high, Ethniu could have killed them with the eye when it was done recharging.
I think it is impossible to guess what Ethnius power level would be without the armor, so I will only consider it with the armor.
I don't think that god cowl would have been able to beat Odin, Titania (at mid summer no less) and the Erlking at once. I don't even think he would have had a good chance. So * would say he would be personally weaker.
But naturally a smart bad guy is often more dangerous than a powerful one outside of a fight.
But of god cowl had tried to do something similar to what Ethniu did the leaders of the accorded nations would have just killed him. As far as I could tell the main reason they were concerned with ganging up on Ethniu was that she would kill them with the eye. So someone had to take the first shot(s).
I don't entirely agree with this. We don't really know Ethniu's actual power level in comparison to Mab. We know what she can do with a super weapon, and nearly indestructible armor, but not what she alone can do. Look at a Knight of the Cross... With a Sword they can slay just about anything. Without it they are just normal people who don't stand much of a chance against a run of the mill vampire.Mab didn't necessarily beat the Eye through brute strength. We don't know how she did it. Dresden couldn't even fathom it. Not one person even attempted a direct block on the field. There are clearly other ways to do such things. Mab isn't like Dresden. She isn't a straight forward, fair-fight, test my strength versus your strength type of person. She out-thinks people. She plans ahead obsessively. She make deals and bargain for knowledge and power. Likely she knew about this moment long before it occurred and planned accordingly.
Ethniu is obviously powerful, but I'm still not convinced she's above Mab. She was no longer in power for a reason. She'd been hiding away for a reason. She returned for a reason. My guess is she finally obtained the weapon, and armor she needed, and an army to match.
If she didn't have the armor, I suspect she'd have been stomped by Titania, Erlking, and Odin. Mab took the full on blast from the Eye that Jim said could kill anything. She took it and survived. Another shot would have finished her, but it goes to show her level of strength. I also imagine that if Mab had the armor, and the Eye, she'd be nearly unbeatable.
Jim gave a short list of people who could stand with Mab (in her weakest state), and it was pretty short. I'd imagine with the same armor, and a super weapon that could kill anything, that list would be much shorter.
Harry has faced terrible odds before. He has a long history of fighting enemies above his weight class. The Red Court of vampires. The fallen angels of the Order of the Blackened Denarius. The Outsiders.Mab's been seen quite a bit in the last millennium. We are talking a different scale of being.
But this time it’s different. A being more powerful and dangerous on an order of magnitude beyond what the world has seen in a millennium is coming. And she’s bringing an army. The Last Titan has declared war on the city of Chicago, and has come to subjugate humanity, obliterating any who stand in her way.
Harry’s mission is simple but impossible: Save the city by killing a Titan. And the attempt will change Harry’s life, Chicago, and the mortal world forever.
#228 “Is the Eldest gruff ever going to make another appearance? And in a match of Him and Lea vs Ferrovax, who would you bet on?”Ferrovax is bigger and badder than Mab. And even he wasn't prepared to tell Ethniu to play nice or leave them alone. Now you might argue that was because he didn't want to crush Chicago/break reality with his fight with her. But even if he is closer to Ethniu's level, both of them are way higher than Mab. It wasn't like Ferrovax was the biggest being in the peace talks once Ethniu showed up. Beyond that, Ferrovax still did what Ethniu told him to do. That's significant.
Ferrovax would crush them both, if they had time to get ready, got to pick the time and place, and pulled out every resource at their disposal. It would be brief and brutal, like watching Tyson in his prime, when the fights were all 30 seconds long, except replacing his opponent with a 15 year old blind girl.
There’s just no comparison, there. Lea and Elder gruff are deadly beings. But Ferrovax is a force of nature. MAB would be loathe to take on Ferro, at least head-on.
"Ethniu is a Titan, boy," he said. "Can you imagine trying to bind Mab?"An order of magnitude beyond that [Mab] in power and will. How much more evidence do you really need?
I shuddered.
"Well, she's an order of magnitude beyond that in power and will," Ebenezar said.
Has it? Are you referring to that WOJ about how the beings themselves don't change, just our understanding of who and what they are? Or some other WOJ. Because the first one isn't really evidence that Z=O. Not saying that Odin and Zeus are not the same being but I haven't yet seen a lot of hard evidence.hence why I bolded a very specific portion I was referring to. Alot if beings never changed, just our understanding of them. The name we gave them, the mask it created to that identity. Course Odin/Zeus would be different in that he did change beyond mere mask. He shed some if his greater power for more agency.
At best it's a pyrrhic victory for Odin, Titania, and the Erlking. And don't forget, it only took out Ethniu's big gun temporarily. She gets it back briefly before Harry manages to bind her, and it's mostly because Marcone forces her to play whack-a-mole and expend her shots.
So why didn't Odin just stab her when he had the Spear during the first fight he had with her? I mean, it clearly already had the ability...surely it's more powerful in the hands of it's rightful wielder? I fail to see any element of planning. It seemed more like a fail-safe move. Odin's not a loser, but he did lose a fight. Happens to plenty of great winners. But the best ones plan for that and have contingencies in place, just like Odin did. Where is the evidence from the text that Odin planned for her to pick up the Spear? It's conjecture otherwise.
And, twenty yards away, the swirl of battle stirred. and I saw One Eye's shadowy form on the ground where he had fallen. He lifted his head. He opened his eye. It gleamed like a smoldering coal in the shadow. And Odin, Father of the Aesir, spoke, his voice a deep resonance that shook the air with gentle power. "Gungnir." I knew the translation of the weapon's name, a bit of useless trivia that had stuck in my head. Swayer.A rune burst into scarlet light upon the Spear's blade. And like a snake, the weapon of the gods the Titian had stolen turned in her hand, whipping about with lightning speed. As it did, runes burst into light all along the length of the blade and haft alike, suddenly blazing with energy. And the weapon plunged with vicious, absolute precision into the Eye of Balor.
hence why I bolded a very specific portion I was referring to. Alot if beings never changed, just our understanding of them. The name we gave them, the mask it created to that identity. Course Odin/Zeus would be different in that he did change beyond mere mask. He shed some if his greater power for more agency.That's the bit I am confused about. I am not disputing many (if not all) of the gods have multiple names and identities. But I don't recall any WOJ or passage of text that specifically, explicitly connects Odin and Zeus. The best we have is some possible implication in the series. But if I have missed something please let me know because I am very interested in this.
No, it wasn't, because in the end the goal was achieved, Ethniu lost, that made it worth it. Also they all recovered fully, so short term pain for over all victory... She may have gotten the Eye back briefly, but she had been weakened so much by that time, she could wield it effectively.The end goal of a fight being isn't mutually exclusive with is being a pyrrhic victory. Neither is recovery. A pyrrhic victory is merely when the price of victory comes at great cost. That's literally what happened.
Because a lone wolf, should be able to, but usually doesn't take a bull moose down on his own. It takes the pack.. The evidence?
That's the bit I am confused about. I am not disputing many (if not all) of the gods have multiple names and identities. But I don't recall any WOJ or passage of text that specifically, explicitly connects Odin and Zeus. The best we have is some possible implication in the series. But if I have missed something please let me know because I am very interested in this.oh, no. The "many beings are just differently known versions of the same thing" is solid, the Odin Zeus connection is just theorized at using the solid portion as the primary correlation of evidence. The thing that sets precedent for the idea, the spring board. Most of my theories are Frankensteined together that way. Evidence of similarity+ theoretical idea that could correlate.
oh, no. The "many beings are just differently known versions of the same thing" is solid, the Odin Zeus connection is just theorized at using the solid portion as the primary correlation of evidence. The thing that sets precedent for the idea, the spring board. Most of my theories are Frankensteined together that way. Evidence of similarity+ theoretical idea that could correlate.Ah I get you now. We all work through problems differently but I think we're on the same page now. Mostly my ideas are "if x is true, then y could be..." Unless I am dead certain of something I try and keep my wording fairly flexible (e.g. using "could" and "it is possible" etc) which I hope comes across. It's good to understand how different people present their opinions though I think, so thank you for sharing your approach. :) I always enjoy your theories even if I am not always necessarily convinced by them. Not everyone is convinced by my ideas - which is why I like these boards. It's a good place to test theories and mostly people are very supportive. Sometimes you're right, sometimes not, but it's all pretty fun by and large.
Partially because of how I think Jim organizes information dumps to have multiple applications in universe.
So, "lots of deity are the same being in slightly different guises based on cultural significance" harkens "Odin has alot of Zeus archetype manifestations" into Odin could be a facet of the being who used to be Zeus.
The end goal of a fight being isn't mutually exclusive with is being a pyrrhic victory. Neither is recovery. A pyrrhic victory is merely when the price of victory comes at great cost. That's literally what happened.
Now a conversation in the early part of Battle Ground between Ebenezar and Harry.An order of magnitude beyond that [Mab] in power and will. How much more evidence do you really need?
It's probably just because I want to believe it, but when Jim said that the Dark Hallow would make Cowl a full on equal to Mab, he was just giving a comparison to one of the most powerful, and recognizable characters... I mean the Titan hadn't even been shown yet. I don't think Cowl would have been at one of the Mothers level, but maybe it was just because Ethniu didn't display much personal power. She didn't even do magic when she wanted the Eye from Harry and Marcone.
As they say, "woulda, shoulda, coulda..." In the end Cowl didn't have the chops so he didn't succeed.. Kind of like what Hades said about the Artifacts, it is set up so that the only one who succeed in getting them are the ones best able to wield them... Maybe Dark Hallow works the same way? If he succeeded Cowl would have been as strong, however in his arrogance he miscalculated, so it is a moot point.Well he did have the chops in the end, he just went and tried to keep Harry alive yet again for some reason and that mercy cost him.
Lots of victories come at great cost, but not all are pyrrhic.. They are only pyrrhic if it turns out that the battle and the price for winning it wasn't worth it. In this case it was worth it, so it wasn't a pyrrhic victory.Well that's fair. Then again, we haven't seen all the fall out either. It might become not look so good in a few years when it become clear that battle was a turning point. Which I think Harry even says in Peace Talks, as a sort-of aside to the reader.
So we have the lightning/Gungnir that points from Odin to Zeus. I think it means more because it is something he pulled out when he was under pressure.The company logo could have been made of Greek letters. It was a possible interpretation of the symbol that Harry saw. The omega and iota combined. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a connection. Good pick up!
There is also the company logo which was made up of Greek letters, but I cannot remember which. The one that Dresden concluded meant every last detail (among other things).
Is there anything else that neither fits Odin nor Kringle?
That his way is made from green lightning? Or am I mixing things?
I concede that she is above Mab. I'm not sure about Fero though. He was weakened in his Earth form (I think). He is a celestial Being, not a Mantle holder. I think that if he had been say in the NeverNever at his full power, she'd have been less able to mess with him.I have found a few times in the series that Jim sets up expectations which then are subverted, but not for plot purposes. Things like we are told x character is really powerful, and then Dresden dunks on them. It can make things a bit jarring.
Here is a guess, and it's only a guess. The Hundred Hand armor did more than just protect her. It allowed her to keep her entire Being in reality without crazy warping it. So she was bigger than Ferro in reality, but not if he was here in his entirety....
It's probably just because I want to believe it, but when Jim said that the Dark Hallow would make Cowl a full on equal to Mab, he was just giving a comparison to one of the most powerful, and recognizable characters... I mean the Titan hadn't even been shown yet. I don't think Cowl would have been at one of the Mothers level, but maybe it was just because Ethniu didn't display much personal power. She didn't even do magic when she wanted the Eye from Harry and Marcone.
I just picture a Wizard with the kind of juice Cowl would have obtained melting Ethniu with something like Bane Fire.
Well he did have the chops in the end, he just went and tried to keep Harry alive yet again for some reason and that mercy cost him.A very good point. We know the stated reason is that his death curse might spoil the workings of the spell...but I am not so sure that was it. He clearly could handle death curses. One way of doing it would simply be to create a circle around the wizard after poisoning them or something that would inevitably kill the practitioner whilst also giving enough time to put a circle around them to contain their magic. Or immerse them in running water assuming they're not a water mage.
So we have the lightning/Gungnir that points from Odin to Zeus. I think it means more because it is something he pulled out when he was under pressure.It also the color of Demonreach and Harry's current staff.
There is also the company logo which was made up of Greek letters, but I cannot remember which. The one that Dresden concluded meant every last detail (among other things).
Is there anything else that neither fits Odin nor Kringle?
That his way is made from green lightning? Or am I mixing things?
Look at Mab. Her power lies in controlling Winter, not in a one to one contest between her an Cowl. Cowl, whoever he is, couldn't be as powerful as Mab, since he can't control Winter. If he could have killed her in the attack at Arctis Tor between Dead Beat and Proven Guilty when Winter was at their nadir then it would have meant more then killing her at some later point as she was more able to exercise her power.It also the color of Demonreach and Harry's current staff.In a sense you are correct. If you go down that route though, Mab has the "power" to end everyone by abandoning the Outer Gates. Of course, Mab doesn't have free will so she can't do such a thing and the point is moot. But she could be cornered, away from the majority of her forces, outside of Faery. Just like in Battle Ground with Ethniu.
In a sense you are correct. If you go down that route though, Mab has the "power" to end everyone by abandoning the Outer Gates. Of course, Mab doesn't have free will so she can't do such a thing and the point is moot. But she could be cornered, away from the majority of her forces, outside of Faery. Just like in Battle Ground with Ethniu.Nothing is confirmed about that except that if Nemesis attacked Arctis Tor and hellfire was involved. It was probably a desperate attempt to get nemesis possessed Lea back before Mab could cure her and she would reveal secrets and maybe Mab could use Nemesis possessed Lea in some other way.
Under such conditions is what I am looking at as well as comparing, as best I can guess, their respective baseline magical might. Difficult but not at all impossible. Also, did we confirm that Cowl was at the Arctis Tor attack or was that just a theory?
Under such conditions is what I am looking at as well as comparing, as best I can guess, their respective baseline magical might.
The line about how in the light of the Swords of the Cross that Ethniu's armour made her looks stiff and slow seemed to suggest it limited her in some way.
Because I have wondered why reality didn't just shatter altogether when she showed up. We know Ferrovax helped with that by going to the Nevernever to keep the door closed, but that doesn't account for her very first appearance.
I am entirely unsure of why the Walkers appear so weak yet Jim classed them at Uriel's level.Yes, this is strange. I tend to interpret this as a matter of total potential vs. ability to effectively apply power - if Uriel is confronting a Walker outside any particular "reality" they're on par, but if a Walker is in "reality" it's limited by its rules -- and possibly what Harry encounters is not the Walker's full being but just whatever can 'slip through the cracks' into "reality".
Well he did have the chops in the end, he just went and tried to keep Harry alive yet again for some reason and that mercy cost him.
We know the stated reason is that his death curse might spoil the workings of the spell...but I am not so sure that was it. He clearly could handle death curses.
Seems fishy, yeah. I'd hope there's a Watsonian reason for that, and it's not just a Doylist convenience that the antagonist is only doing anything when he's on page.
Seems fishy, yeah. I'd hope there's a Watsonian reason for that, and it's not just a Doylist convenience that the antagonist is only doing anything when he's on page.
Cowl appeared to do it because at the time he felt like he had no choice, it was a last resort. That's how I remember it anyways. Maybe he doesn't want to do it, and only felt he had to at the time.
For someone who was really reluctant, he went through a lot of trouble to get the information to do it..
I believe it's because there was a race against the Kemmlerites wasn't there?There is a lot of preparation if you want to do it well. They helped each other with the preparations and tried to kill each other off as well.
Maybe there was more to the Darkhallow that we aren't aware of. Maybe it can be done every 13 years or something.
I believe it's because there was a race against the Kemmlerites wasn't there?
Maybe there was more to the Darkhallow that we aren't aware of. Maybe it can be done every 13 years or something.
I thought Cowl was a Kemmlerite, at least Kumori was and she tried to stop Harry from stopping Cowl.Kumori was a necromancer and is presented as Cowl’s apprentice or ally. Both are not necessarily Kemlerites, he denied, but it is still possible.
I thought Cowl was a Kemmlerite, at least Kumori was and she tried to stop Harry from stopping Cowl.
I believe it's because there was a race against the Kemmlerites wasn't there?
There is a lot of preparation if you want to do it well. They helped each other with the preparations and tried to kill each other off as well.
And there was all the plotting to keep the white council occupied during the event. Cowl has to do everything by himself now.
Of course I just remembered. He doesn't have Bob, OR The Book of Kemmler... So he probably couldn't try it again. The spell is probably to precise to do from memory. that would explain why he hasn't tried it again too.
Except that once read another necromancer immediately understood and Harry understood as well. Apparently once you know it is not that difficult to remember
Wait how do we know cowl is working with outsiders? I must have terrible memory..Cowl brought the athame to Bianca in grave peril so she could give it to Lea. In white knight Vittorio called cowl his master and according to Lash Vittorio was possessed by an outsider.
Except that once read another necromancer immediately understood and Harry understood as well. Apparently once you know it is not that difficult to remember
Harry knows because Lash absorbed the book and transferred it to Harry's mind. If it was so easy to remember, why would Kemmler write it down for anyone to use when he could just memorize it, and keep that powerful knowledge for himself?Because Kemmler wanted to spread his knowledge as was specifically stated in dead beat. It took the council a lot of effort to burn them. This was not a private journal with critic notes, this was a manual for people who came after him. Just like his other books.