Author Topic: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?  (Read 19329 times)

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1383
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2021, 02:53:20 AM »
Yeah, I am wondering if there are lines that the Fallen cannot cross.  They are trapped in their coins and must do their thing through mortals.  Harry earned the right to wield the Spear, as we were told by Hades, there are rules regarding the Spear and the other artifacts.  Both the Spear and the Eye were there for the taking, Harry was in no condition to stop them.. So why didn't they take them?
Well the main one is that they cannot take Free Will. The other one is that the can only tempt. And it seems only the Fallen trapped in the Denarian Coins can express their power.

But all the Fallen are rule breakers, hence being Fallen. But I think the first rule about Free Will is a cosmic limit rather than a legal one. Same with the last one. But the middle one could go either way.

I can't tell whether there would be a cosmic limitation on the Fallen preventing them from taking objects rightfully won, like the Spear etc. But it could also simply be that because of their extraordinary access to cosmic information (intellectus), they are aware of other consequences such as where such choices might lead etc. They don't simply predict the future, to some degree they seem to just know it. Of course, Free Will might screw that up in the moment.

Mab. They could not take them without her noticing it and taking his possessions under those circumstances would have made her angry.
I think Mira was talking about cosmic limitations, not political rules of engagment. Don't get me wrong that's a fair enough theory on its own though. Then again, Mab does seem to have a "if you lost it, you failed to protect it" sort of attitude with Harry. Quite a different matter if they stole from a place like Arctis Tor...
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2021, 03:20:36 AM »
I think Mira was talking about cosmic limitations, not political rules of engagment. Don't get me wrong that's a fair enough theory on its own though. Then again, Mab does seem to have a "if you lost it, you failed to protect it" sort of attitude with Harry. Quite a different matter if they stole from a place like Arctis Tor...
People like Odin, Hades, Mab, ...

They want it in Harry’s hands because he has the right mix of power and free will to make the most use of it in the crisis to come.

And Mab does protect Harry against some threats. Not against minor threats he should handle himself or results of his own stupidity but big threats as a result of his service to her are different. She won’t give more help than necessary and she won’t be to obvious about it most of the time but she did warn Lara about eating Harry for example.

WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24329
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2021, 04:04:15 AM »
People like Odin, Hades, Mab, ...

They want it in Harry’s hands because he has the right mix of power and free will to make the most use of it in the crisis to come.

And Mab does protect Harry against some threats. Not against minor threats he should handle himself or results of his own stupidity but big threats as a result of his service to her are different. She won’t give more help than necessary and she won’t be to obvious about it most of the time but she did warn Lara about eating Harry for example.

Hades did have a couple of things to say about the artifacts, as did Harry as to why he was on the mission.  Mab may want the artifacts in Harry's hands, but it isn't that simple.

Skin Game page 347
Quote
"But why lock them away where anyone with enough resources can get them?" I asked.
"To prevent anyone without the skill or the commitment to use them well from having them,"he said. " It is not my task to keep them from all of mortal kind---only from the incompetents."
Harry gets it...
Quote
Then I got it, and understanding made the bottom of my stomach drop out. This whole mess. . .it was an audition?"

I think Hades also answers the question as to why neither Marcone nor Namshiel went for the Spear.

page 348 Skin Game
Quote
"It is not my place," Hades said.  "I wish you good fortune, and will hope you triumph.  But even if we yet lived in the age where my will could guide the course of destiny, it is not for the Lord of Death to take sides in this struggle.  The fate of the weapons you have found must be decided by those who found them."

So I take that to mean, Harry found the weapons, he took the weapons, he is the one who uses them and decides their fate.  Marcone/Namshiel did neither so they cannot.. Hmmm.... Wonder if that goes for the Grail as well?  Harry decided it's fate by giving it to Nic, but Nic didn't find it, can he use it?

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1383
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2021, 04:29:18 AM »
People like Odin, Hades, Mab, ...

They want it in Harry’s hands because he has the right mix of power and free will to make the most use of it in the crisis to come.

And Mab does protect Harry against some threats. Not against minor threats he should handle himself or results of his own stupidity but big threats as a result of his service to her are different. She won’t give more help than necessary and she won’t be to obvious about it most of the time but she did warn Lara about eating Harry for example.
That's true, but the Fallen aren't chumps either. Arguably the Fallen (not just the Denarians, the whole lot of them) are a far scarier threat than Winter, Odin, Hades etc.

So it's a risk-reward problem. If the Denarians were determined enough I don't think they would care one iota about Hades or Odin or Mab. Depends on what the value of such items were to them. World-ending apocalypse stuff, especially if it was the only way or if it was a sure-fire victory, seems like it would  something they would do anything to get.

Mab protects her territory. If Harry is a key part of that she protects him. If it risks her name and reputation she protects him.

The Lara thing is interesting. Was she warning her not to make Harry a White Court thrall? Or perhaps simply not to kill her valuable Knight? Or perhaps most interestingly, she was warning her not to steal the power of the mantle of the Winter Knight. I don't that Lara could do that...but she does feed on energy. So I wouldn't rule it out either. Who knows, maybe Mab was warning against all of the above. That seems more her style.

Hades did have a couple of things to say about the artifacts, as did Harry as to why he was on the mission.  Mab may want the artifacts in Harry's hands, but it isn't that simple.

I think Hades also answers the question as to why neither Marcone nor Namshiel went for the Spear.

So I take that to mean, Harry found the weapons, he took the weapons, he is the one who uses them and decides their fate.  Marcone/Namshiel did neither so they cannot.. Hmmm.... Wonder if that goes for the Grail as well?  Harry decided it's fate by giving it to Nic, but Nic didn't find it, can he use it?

Yes, this could work as well. I found that a very intriguing line. When the Greek Gods were running things, their will DID guide the course of destiny. What changed? I'll bet dollars to donuts it was around the time of Christ. Question really is - why?
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2021, 06:01:39 AM »
That's true, but the Fallen aren't chumps either. Arguably the Fallen (not just the Denarians, the whole lot of them) are a far scarier threat than Winter, Odin, Hades etc.

So it's a risk-reward problem. If the Denarians were determined enough I don't think they would care one iota about Hades or Odin or Mab. Depends on what the value of such items were to them. World-ending apocalypse stuff, especially if it was the only way or if it was a sure-fire victory, seems like it would  something they would do anything to get.
The fallen are limited in many ways and Mab knows how they are limited. She also has worked with Uriel before. Odin also has regular lunches with Uriel so there is more going on behind the scenes with him.

If the fallen start to do something like that they are bound to get a reaction.
Quote
Map protects her territory. If Harry is a key part of that she protects him. If it risks her name and reputation she protects him.

The Lara thing is interesting. Was she warning her not to make Harry a White Court thrall? Or perhaps simply not to kill her valuable Knight? Or perhaps most interestingly, she was warning her not to steal the power of the mantle of the Winter Knight. I don't that Lara could do that...but she does feed on energy. So I wouldn't rule it out either. Who knows, maybe Mab was warning against all of the above. That seems more her style.
It was simply don’t eat him, not even nibble. Just to make sure she understood. Mab would see it as an attack on her court and rightly so because Harry was there in his official function and Lara was supposed to be an ally and probably a hundred other reasons.

Quote
Yes, this could work as well. I found that a very intriguing line. When the Greek Gods were running things, their will DID guide the course of destiny. What changed? I'll bet dollars to donuts it was around the time of Christ. Question really is - why?
It was probably somewhat later depending on where. What changed? Human belief and their stories changed so the supernatural and how they expressed themselves had to change.

It is probably also geographical. The same forces may express differently in say southern India.

WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Avernite

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 730
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2021, 08:19:31 AM »
That's true, but the Fallen aren't chumps either. Arguably the Fallen (not just the Denarians, the whole lot of them) are a far scarier threat than Winter, Odin, Hades etc.

So it's a risk-reward problem. If the Denarians were determined enough I don't think they would care one iota about Hades or Odin or Mab. Depends on what the value of such items were to them. World-ending apocalypse stuff, especially if it was the only way or if it was a sure-fire victory, seems like it would  something they would do anything to get.
I see it quite differently.

Yes, the Fallen COULD try that. But then the un-fallen Angels would be able to come out and play at full strength, too. Blow for blow, hit for hit, and they would probably counter them about exactly.

Only about exactly, of course, but this rounding error is where people like Mab and Odin WOULD make a difference. Angels vs Fallen is probably about a 50:50 fight; Angels+Mab+Harry vs Fallen is 50+1:50.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1383
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2021, 12:47:14 PM »
The fallen are limited in many ways and Mab knows how they are limited. She also has worked with Uriel before. Odin also has regular lunches with Uriel so there is more going on behind the scenes with him.

If the fallen start to do something like that they are bound to get a reaction. It was simply don’t eat him, not even nibble. Just to make sure she understood. Mab would see it as an attack on her court and rightly so because Harry was there in his official function and Lara was supposed to be an ally and probably a hundred other reasons.
It was probably somewhat later depending on where. What changed? Human belief and their stories changed so the supernatural and how they expressed themselves had to change.

It is probably also geographical. The same forces may express differently in say southern India.
True, but not totally limited. Even the ones in the Denarian Coins. Lucifer (well actually, one of his lieutenants according to WOJ) was able to power the Denarian Signs used to capture Marcone and the Archive. Yes, Uriel responded. But clearly the Fallen are able to act to some degree. The Denarians asked for the aid of Hell's Fallen and they got it. Mab reacts to the Denarians (as in the combination of Fallen in the Coin and the bearer). Uriel reacts to the Fallen, specifically.

The Denarians, nor Hell, were particularly worried about the consequences of capturing the (fake) Shroud, or robbing Hades, or capturing the Archive etc. If they want something enough, they'll just go do it. Especially at that level. So if they really wanted the Arma Christi or whatever, they would do whatever they could to get them.

It could just be don't eat him...but Mab often has layers of meaning. So I wouldn't take it at just straight value. However, I don't know that she would see it as an attack on her Court necessarily. It would entirely depend on the context. The White Court are masters of setting things up and using cat paws to get what they want. It all depends on the boundaries of Harry acting in his official capacity. Think back to Storm Front when Harry punches Morgan right after Morgan sheaths his sword and is no longer acting officially. Which is a fairly simple view of things on Jim's part (I wouldn't bother punching an off-duty cop, they can still arrest you for example - depending on your local laws). But he did write that scene 20 odd years ago as a much younger man.

As for the changing of the balance of power, the reason I chose when Christ was around is according to Jim that's when a lot of balances of power changed and set things for the next 2000 odd years. We also get the Knights of the Cross and the Knights of the Blackened Denarius around this time, and the Arma Christi. I can't really see a later date of importance (at least as far as the story is concerned) apart from whatever happened at Hastings. But I'd say there had already been significant change by that point. There are earlier points too of course, but this seems to fit. Also, Jim being a Christian and having fairly prominent Christian themes, symbols and idea in his books makes it even more likely.

I think you're right about the belief stuff, but what caused them to change their beliefs. Did Zeus stop showing up in divine visitations etc? I'd say so.

I have wondered about the geographical thing. Time will tell on that one. Is Zeus also Brahma and also Odin etc? Or are they all separate beings that go by whatever names and titles mortals give them.

I see it quite differently.

Yes, the Fallen COULD try that. But then the un-fallen Angels would be able to come out and play at full strength, too. Blow for blow, hit for hit, and they would probably counter them about exactly.

Only about exactly, of course, but this rounding error is where people like Mab and Odin WOULD make a difference. Angels vs Fallen is probably about a 50:50 fight; Angels+Mab+Harry vs Fallen is 50+1:50.

Fair enough. But notice Uriel didn't respond exactly the same way that Lucifer/one of his captains acted. It might be even but not necessarily equitable or even a mirrored response. I think you're probably right about the rounding error thing - because I think it's exactly why Vadderung chooses to be mostly mortal.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline b4utoo

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 384
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2021, 04:51:11 PM »
No. No. And no...UNLESS....

Dark Hallow was performed on a greater scale than it was maybe if Erlking wizards more than the half dozen that were present... Maybe...absorbing life and spirits is key right? But you need power greater than what was on the battlefield. Mab Titania winter ladie.. winter knight Odin ErlKing eb with blackstaff..the Knights...etc... pretty sure Cowl was looking more toward a one-on-one with a big bad so he can do his own thing BUT NOBODY EXPECTS A TITAN

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2021, 06:37:35 PM »
The arma Christi might have been around under other names before.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline groinkick

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7556
  • Strike first. Strike Hard. No Mercy! - Cobra Kai
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2021, 06:50:16 PM »
No. No. And no...UNLESS....

Dark Hallow was performed on a greater scale than it was maybe if Erlking wizards more than the half dozen that were present... Maybe...absorbing life and spirits is key right? But you need power greater than what was on the battlefield. Mab Titania winter ladie.. winter knight Odin ErlKing eb with blackstaff..the Knights...etc... pretty sure Cowl was looking more toward a one-on-one with a big bad so he can do his own thing BUT NOBODY EXPECTS A TITAN

She didn't face all of them.  Her army fought most of them.  She also had the Eye which wasn't hers, and Armor that wasn't really hers.  We didn't get to see her fight as herself but instead her armed with super weapons. 

Question:  cowl with darkhallow – really? just a bunch of spirits…

Answer:  If he’d succeeded, he’d have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some.  He’d have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab.  I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual?  Because that’s how the big E got so boss in the first place.  :)..  For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power?  That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn’t there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1383
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2021, 11:23:43 PM »
The arma Christi might have been around under other names before.
Indeed, that's certainly possible. Any ideas on what?

She didn't face all of them.  Her army fought most of them.  She also had the Eye which wasn't hers, and Armor that wasn't really hers.  We didn't get to see her fight as herself but instead her armed with super weapons. 

Question:  cowl with darkhallow – really? just a bunch of spirits…

Answer:  If he’d succeeded, he’d have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some.  He’d have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab.  I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual?  Because that’s how the big E got so boss in the first place.  :)..  For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power?  That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn’t there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.
You know, I am not so sure about how I feel about that WOJ any more. I just don't see how it matches up with Hecate sponsoring the Fae or that Hecate and/possible other sponsors are older than mortals. It's not exactly mutually exclusive, but Ethniu seems to have existed before time began, and she seemed to be most enraged by Mother Winter's walking stick.

The way the table works is that whatever blood is sacrificed on it goes into whoever controls the table. But one would think that must have happened before the Courts were split.

My only explanation that I can come up with on the fly is that Hecate needed more power at some point, and so sacrificed others on the table in order to give herself more juice. But it was too much and/or it didn't work out/or she realised she needed to balance things and split herself up. Perhaps other gods contributed to the power too, other beings.

EDIT: Also, I just realised this answers my intial question. If Cowl with the darkhallow was a full-on equal to Mab, he isn't as strong as Ethniu. Ethniu was an order above Mab. 
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24329
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2021, 02:35:11 PM »
Quote
Answer: If he’d succeeded, he’d have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some.  He’d have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab.  I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual?  Because that’s how the big E got so boss in the first place.  :)..  For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power?  That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn’t there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.

Is Jim implying that the Erlking used the Dark Hallow Ritual?

Offline TheCuriousFan

  • Special Collections Division
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 16609
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2021, 04:29:22 PM »
Is Jim implying that the Erlking used the Dark Hallow Ritual?
The specific ritual? No. Generally eating things for power? Yes.
Currently dealing with a backlog of games.

If you want me to type up a book quote or find a WoJ quote, send me a PM.

Rest in peace mdodd.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24329
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2021, 04:48:56 PM »
The specific ritual? No. Generally eating things for power? Yes.

But that doesn't always work out either, that is what the Nightmare did in Grave Peril.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2021, 05:14:03 PM »
But that doesn't always work out either, that is what the Nightmare did in Grave Peril.
It must be on Halloween or some similar moment in space and time, otherwise it is just eating power and probably no mantle is constructed.

Also the nightmare was not alive anymore, that probably also made a difference. Kemmler knew how to eat spirits for power and probably did it regularly because Mab told that was the secret how he could fight the council for so long, but that did not made him a god, a special ritual was needed for that. Just any eating of power won’t do it.

Besides I do not think the nightmare ate enough anyway.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]