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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on February 10, 2018, 08:25:03 PM
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Jim has stated that there are those in the government that know about the supernatural world, and they are super secret. I started a previous thread on the Highlander series and immortals. On that series there are Watchers. I don't believe they work for any government but they are a super secret group of people who watch immortals, but don't interfere. At one point in the series a conflict broke out between immortals, and Watchers. The Watchers were killing immortals (who didn't know the Watchers even existed).
Anyways I'm wondering if this super secrete government agency that knows of the supernatural community is connected to Mac, and that's why he was called a Watcher (mortals who are aware of, and study the supernatural world in secret). It's speculation, and I still haven't abandoned the idea that Mac is more on the supernatural side of things but thought it would be a fun discussion.
I also think that if this is true, it would be interesting if sometime down the line just like the Watchers got involved in attacking immortals that at some point the secrete government agency involved with just monitoring the supernatural world decides to get involved for whatever reason.
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They're part of the Library of Congress per some WoJ. Special Collections Division.
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They're part of the Library of Congress per some WoJ. Special Collections Division.
Ok cool. So it does sound like the fall under the non interference version of the Watchers from the Highlander series. If Mac worked for this group he would have access to vast vast information that even the White Council may no longer have access to.
(https://images.pottermore.com/bxd3o8b291gf/2PFQnN9kbSEsm46q0yO2ku/7f581fabb62c90647937f19b8863cfc0/HogwartsLibrary_PM_B1C12M1_HogwartsLibrary_Moment.jpg?w=1200)
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I rather doubt getting one's bar listed as Accorded Neutral Ground is consistent with the level of secrecy the government spooks try to maintain.
I wonder, though, were the clued Feds in the comic Dog Men a branch of the Special Collections department? They didn't seem to mind LtW and Dresden knowing that they knew about the supernatural. Are there multiple clued in government groups?
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The only threat the Watchers/Librarians would pose would be if they had Names. And even then, they wouldn't be able to do anything against the beings, since knowing a Name isn't enough to defeat a creature.
Now, if a Watcher/Librarian that knew Names were to team up with the Warden of the Well, who could use the Names to summon beings and use the Well to imprison them, then they'd be a viable threat. But after the very first time, any being that knew the W/L had their name and was willing to use it would move against them.
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Mac being a watcher is having a profession or role where his life really isn't in jeopardy even on Halloween. Subsurface would have just attempted to kill him then and there instead of just getting to Harry. I mean Mac could have been named many times but he wasn't so I think it, to sharkface point of view, a pointless action right now.
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I rather doubt getting one's bar listed as Accorded Neutral Ground is consistent with the level of secrecy the government spooks try to maintain.
Didn't Mac say somewhere that he was simply "out"? Whatever it was he did in the past, he appears to have stepped down, and isn't picking sides.
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The only threat the Watchers/Librarians would pose would be if they had Names.
That rather depends who they're intending to threaten. Mantled immortals, sure, they're pretty well out of the reach of any government. But given that the feds are well aware of Harry and have been keeping an eye on him for a while, surveillance likely would have noticed Carlos, Eb, Thomas, and most of the other domestic known associates. If they're sharp, they've probably worked backward from Thomas to figure the Raith family are something more than just very very rich, and Lara's influence campaign among non-clued federal agencies is probably scaring the hell out of them. Should they decide to test how tough a warden or a whampire really is, a car bomb or a sniper's bullet is just as dangerous coming from Special Collections as from Kincaid or Marcone.
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That rather depends who they're intending to threaten. Mantled immortals, sure, they're pretty well out of the reach of any government. But given that the feds are well aware of Harry and have been keeping an eye on him for a while, surveillance likely would have noticed Carlos, Eb, Thomas, and most of the other domestic known associates. If they're sharp, they've probably worked backward from Thomas to figure the Raith family are something more than just very very rich, and Lara's influence campaign among non-clued federal agencies is probably scaring the hell out of them. Should they decide to test how tough a warden or a whampire really is, a car bomb or a sniper's bullet is just as dangerous coming from Special Collections as from Kincaid or Marcone.
And the moment they do, and they're discovered, they'll have nothing to protect themselves. A squad of Ramps ram wild in an FBI building. A coordinated assault by and of the supernatural factions would be much worse.
And given that they're all interested in knowing about everything, and have resources mortals can only dream about, they'd probably eliminated shortly after such orders were given.
Basically, I expect official monitoring of the supernatural to go as unnoticed and well as Carver's surveillance of Harry.
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Yeah, but there's a reason Harry calls bringing mortals into the fight as a "nuclear option." For one thing, mortals have the literal nuclear option. Or at a lesser extent, the carpet bombing option. How well would things have gone for most of the Red Court if Harry had opened up his fight with a flight of bombers dropping white phosphorus all over the area?
If the various supernatural forces out there thought they could win a head on war with mortals, they wouldn't be hiding but ruling.
I mean, sure they took out an FBI Building. But the vast majority of the people there were admin and investigators. The heaviest thing in the arsenal might have been a rifle, and probably was a pistol. Try that against a base prepared for such an attack, and things will go differently. And even if they do manage to take it out, there's the vast difference in numbers. Humanity can afford to lose 10-1 to take out the Rampires or whatever.
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Yeah, but there's a reason Harry calls bringing mortals into the fight as a "nuclear option." For one thing, mortals have the literal nuclear option. Or at a lesser extent, the carpet bombing option. How well would things have gone for most of the Red Court if Harry had opened up his fight with a flight of bombers dropping white phosphorus all over the area?
If the various supernatural forces out there thought they could win a head on war with mortals, they wouldn't be hiding but ruling.
I mean, sure they took out an FBI Building. But the vast majority of the people there were admin and investigators. The heaviest thing in the arsenal might have been a rifle, and probably was a pistol. Try that against a base prepared for such an attack, and things will go differently. And even if they do manage to take it out, there's the vast difference in numbers. Humanity can afford to lose 10-1 to take out the Rampires or whatever.
It took one wizard with a walking stick to set of Krakatoa. What do you think a retired god could do to Yellowstone?
What's to stop the Fomor from hijacking a sub armed with nukes, taking the payload and having someone detonate a few in the upper atmosphere in strategic locations, to knock out electronics? Or detonating them inside military bases and ports, security bunkers, or the Pentagon?
If they needed to, the supernatural community could neutralize humanity's threat. The only thing stopping them is the lack of necessity. They get more with the status quo than they do in all-out war. The more reasoned minds keep the rest in check.
But if humanity starts it, they won't let themselves be exterminated.
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It took one wizard with a walking stick to set of Krakatoa. What do you think a retired god could do to Yellowstone?
Wizards have free will, gods do not.
What's to stop the Fomor from hijacking a sub armed with nukes, taking the payload and having someone detonate a few in the upper atmosphere in strategic locations, to knock out electronics? Or detonating them inside military bases and ports, security bunkers, or the Pentagon?
Probably the same thing that stops wizards from using computers. Also the Fomor would then be targeted by just about every other supernatural thing out there
If they needed to, the supernatural community could neutralize humanity's threat. The only thing stopping them is the lack of necessity. They get more with the status quo than they do in all-out war. The more reasoned minds keep the rest in check.
But if humanity starts it, they won't let themselves be exterminated.
It's not all of humanity vs all of the supernatural world. If a war broke out between say the vampire courts, and humanity the chances are good that factions would join humanity, and humanity would accept them as allies.
It's common knowledge how important human belief, worship ect is required for many gods, and supernatural beings to even exist. They aren't going to stand by and watch their source of power be exterminated by the Fomor or vampires. For many in the supernatural world to destroy humanity is no different than ending their own existence. They need humans for worship. Vampires need humans for food. Remove humanity, remove themselves. That's why they don't want war, and if they fought humanity in a war they would just end up destroying their only source of power.
They would be dooming themselves into Oblivion....
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Wizards have free will, gods do not.
Probably the same thing that stops wizards from using computers. Also the Fomor would then be targeted by just about every other supernatural thing out there
It's not all of humanity vs all of the supernatural world. If a war broke out between say the vampire courts, and humanity the chances are good that factions would join humanity, and humanity would accept them as allies.
It's common knowledge how important human belief, worship ect is required for many gods, and supernatural beings to even exist. They aren't going to stand by and watch their source of power be exterminated by the Fomor or vampires. For many in the supernatural world to destroy humanity is no different than ending their own existence. They need humans for worship. Vampires need humans for food. Remove humanity, remove themselves. That's why they don't want war, and if they fought humanity in a war they would just end up destroying their only source of power.
They would be dooming themselves into Oblivion....
We're not talking about the Fomor instigating a war with humanity, which the supernatural community would prevent. We're talking about a human government agency hunting and killing supernatural creatures, the creatures responding, and humanity escalating things further.
Once things go far enough, it'll be humans versus the combined might of the supernatural world. At that point, all the old rules are back. The new rules, where the gods idle their time away, will be gone. It'll be fire and brimstone and worse.
Edit: Also, there's been no evidence than anyone else in he supernatural community has the same tech weakness as the wizards. We've seen evidence of the opposite.
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Once things go far enough, it'll be humans versus the combined might of the supernatural world. At that point, all the old rules are back. The new rules, where the gods idle their time away, will be gone. It'll be fire and brimstone and worse.
Why? Humans can't attack the idle gods. Can't attack Winter or Summer. Cannot attack Hades or Zeus. Humans are limited to fighting in the Earthly plane. Why would Mab, or Hades, or the old gods get involved against humanity in a war with say the Fomor? What would the benefit be? In actuality these gods would see it as an opportunity to remove the Fomor. There is no reason for the gods to side with vampires, fomor, ghouls, or any other Earthly realm beings. The gods are beyond humanities reach, and are no friends to most of the supernatural creatures who call Earth their home.
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Why? Humans can't attack the idle gods. Can't attack Winter or Summer. Cannot attack Hades or Zeus. Humans are limited to fighting in the Earthly plane. Why would Mab, or Hades, or the old gods get involved against humanity in a war with say the Fomor? What would the benefit be? In actuality these gods would see it as an opportunity to remove the Fomor. There is no reason for the gods to side with vampires, fomor, ghouls, or any other Earthly realm beings. The gods are beyond humanities reach, and are no friends to most of the supernatural creatures who call Earth their home.
Because the proposed attack wasn't on the Fomor. It was in the Whamps. Lara would not sit idly by as her people were killed. She'd go after whoever was responsible. So it'd either end quickly, with the humans smacked down and put in their place, or it'd escalate.
If it escalated, with humanity bringing their weapons to bear, then the opportunistic sort like the Fomor would back the Wamps. The Sidhe Courts can't work together, so you'd have two of the most powerful factions ready to fight the humans to prevent their extinction, with the others limited in what they could do. And you know Cristos would be warning the wizards that the vanilla mortals would turn on them at the earliest opportunity, just like they did during the witch hunts.
And how many other minor gods out there are weak because of a lack of faith and opportunity? How many others would love a return to the old ways? To scare the hell out of the humans in their domain, feed off their compliance, and grow stronger?
The humans would fight back, and so would the supernatural. Some mortal working for the government would figure out a way to open a Way to somewhere important (Arctis Tor, perhaps, with the help of Cowl?) and they'd send a nuke in a la the World Council in the Avengers, or the US in Independence Day. And then the Courts *will* be involved, and not on humanity's side.
The supernatural creatures would just open Ways into every nuclear missile silo, storage facility, and sub, and just take the entire arsenal. Butterfly-winged faeries would carry them in orbit and above the cities and set them off, knocking out satellites and electronics. Buried phone and internet trunk lines would be broken. Power plants would be sabotaged even worse than they were in DB, sending the population into the dark ages.
And then the old gods would come, making humanity capitulate. Many would fight, but we're talking maybe 50 million military personnel to protect 7 billion? With no nukes, against an enemy that has them, that can go ahead and nuke every military base and port?
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Ok this is a lot to respond to. We are talking about a secret organization that has been keeping track of the supernatural world for a very long time, gathering huge amounts of information. This isn't just random mortals attacking the supernatural community. An attack led by this group would be organized, precise, and lethal. They would know who could be reasoned with, who can be bargained with, who can be allied with, and who should be destroyed. We are talking about who I deemed "watchers". We aren't talking about just mortal governments right now.
It was in the Whamps. Lara would not sit idly by as her people were killed. She'd go after whoever was responsible. So it'd either end quickly, with the humans smacked down and put in their place, or it'd escalate.
Ok first off the White Court is incredibly weak in the grand scheme of things. Easily defeated by mortals. An organized military strike on the White Court would not be difficult, and unlike the Black Court, and Red Court the White Court cannot even spread their race in any meaningful way. With likely centuries of intelligence gathered on the White Court, the entire family could be wiped out with incredible speed, and efficiency.
If it escalated, with humanity bringing their weapons to bear, then the opportunistic sort like the Fomor would back the Wamps. The Sidhe Courts can't work together, so you'd have two of the most powerful factions ready to fight the humans to prevent their extinction, with the others limited in what they could do.
The Sidhe are the ones who drove the Fomor into the oceans. They are enemies. The "Watchers" would know that the Sidhe act as protectors from the Outside (if they are actually good at gathering information from the supernatural community). They would not attack, or threaten the Sidhe. As a matter of fact they would know that the Sidhe are deal makers, and will absolutely stand by any deal made. They could be reasoned with and the Watchers would seek that avenue.
And you know Cristos would be warning the wizards that the vanilla mortals would turn on them at the earliest opportunity, just like they did during the witch hunts.
Maybe or the Wizard would have the choice of choosing between humanity, or the supernatural world. Given the choice of humans, or vampires I'm guessing the wizards would choose humanity.
And how many other minor gods out there are weak because of a lack of faith and opportunity? How many others would love a return to the old ways? To scare the hell out of the humans in their domain, feed off their compliance, and grow stronger?
They were replaced. If they want to step on the toes of those who replaced them it would probably be at their own peril.
The humans would fight back, and so would the supernatural. Some mortal working for the government would figure out a way to open a Way to somewhere important (Arctis Tor, perhaps, with the help of Cowl?) and they'd send a nuke in a la the World Council in the Avengers, or the US in Independence Day. And then the Courts *will* be involved, and not on humanity's side.
Yeah if it's scared mortals launching an all out attack. This speculation is supposed to be about attack brought on by the Watchers. They aren't uneducated to the supernatural. They wouldn't want to attack the Sidhe as I stated above. They know a deal could be struck, and the Sidhe would not break a treaty.
And then the old gods would come, making humanity capitulate.
As I said before, they were replaced. They would get beat down by those who replaced them.
Many would fight, but we're talking maybe 50 million military personnel to protect 7 billion? With no nukes, against an enemy that has them, that can go ahead and nuke every military base and port?
50 million active. Realistically probably 1 in 10 people can fight. So more like 700 million.
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Ok this is a lot to respond to. We are talking about a secret organization that has been keeping track of the supernatural world for a very long time, gathering huge amounts of information. This isn't just random mortals attacking the supernatural community.
That's what you're proposing. What others proposed was sniping some Whamps to see what they were made of.
An attack led by this group would be organized, precise, and lethal. They would know who could be reasoned with, who can be bargained with, who can be allied with, and who should be destroyed. We are talking about who I deemed "watchers". We aren't talking about just mortal governments right now.
Is your proposed group working in complete secrecy, avoiding detection by the likes of Mab and Vadderung and the Wamp agents in the government and the Ramps' old people and the magical seers and the faeries watching everything everywhere?
Because if anyone knows, they'll be working to compromise their security, Intel, and possible plans. They're not plotting in a vacuum.
Ok first off the White Court is incredibly weak in the grand scheme of things. Easily defeated by mortals. An organized military strike on the White Court would not be difficult, and unlike the Black Court, and Red Court the White Court cannot even spread their race in any meaningful way. With likely centuries of intelligence gathered on the White Court, the entire family could be wiped out with incredible speed, and efficiency.
Hence why their influence gathering of late is so important. They used to have the Ramps to fall back on for help as a fellow vampire Court (see the Ramps frustration about the Wamps not getting involved in the war for evidence of the relationship) but now they don't. But if they have any intel it's going to happen, or any survive, the Fomor and other opportunists will help in return for favors.
The Sidhe are the ones who drove the Fomor into the oceans. They are enemies. The "Watchers" would know that the Sidhe act as protectors from the Outside (if they are actually good at gathering information from the supernatural community). They would not attack, or threaten the Sidhe. As a matter of fact they would know that the Sidhe are deal makers, and will absolutely stand by any deal made. They could be reasoned with and the Watchers would seek that avenue.
If they knew that much, they wouldn't make a move against anyone. Why start fights that aren't necessary when it could cause trouble for reality itself? They'd speak with Mab, who would discourage rash behavior. Especially when a failure would send the world into chaos.
Maybe or the Wizard would have the choice of choosing between humanity, or the supernatural world. Given the choice of humans, or vampires I'm guessing the wizards would choose humanity.
Or the Merlin is right, and there are a bunch of wizards that only resist darker temptations because of the rules. Given the opportunity, more might join the Black Council to gain power and freedom to do what they want.
They were replaced. If they want to step on the toes of those who replaced them it would probably be at their own peril.
Those that replaced them are heavily restricted from what they can do. It'd be mass chaos.
Yeah if it's scared mortals launching an all out attack. This speculation is supposed to be about attack brought on by the Watchers. They aren't uneducated to the supernatural. They wouldn't want to attack the Sidhe as I stated above. They know a deal could be struck, and the Sidhe would not break a treaty.
Nor would Mab want to disrupt the balances in place, for fear of losing control. Don't forget that her Court is made up of things that hunt humans. She's dependent on them, and the mortal faction isn't going to stop with exterminating just one predator race.
As I said before, they were replaced. They would get beat down by those who replaced them.
Who replaced the old Greek and Roman gods? Who replaced the regional deities? A couple monotheistic religions that refuse to get involved in things.
50 million active. Realistically probably 1 in 10 people can fight. So more like 700 million.
Of which the most experienced would be the first to die, leaving the rest to fight with personal weapons and sabotaged equipment. For every one hundred that could fight, how many could resist the temptations offered? Could resist the mental whammies and addictive bloods and monetary rewards and bestowed powers? Of those remaining, how many will stand against monsters without flinching? Will leave their loved ones alone in the night without protection? How many would await the end as pacifists?
The vast majority of humanity is sheep, with maybe 1% making up the shepherds, and 1% making up the sheepdogs.
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That's what you're proposing. What others proposed was sniping some Whamps to see what they were made of.
Yeah that was a mistake on my part. I read your response without looking to see what you were actually responding to. My bad.
Is your proposed group working in complete secrecy, avoiding detection by the likes of Mab and Vadderung and the Wamp agents in the government and the Ramps' old people and the magical seers and the faeries watching everything everywhere?
According to Jim, yes. He said words to the effect if they were discovered, that would be it for them. (working from memory, hopefully I'm remembering correctly)
Because if anyone knows, they'll be working to compromise their security, Intel, and possible plans. They're not plotting in a vacuum.
Hence why their influence gathering of late is so important. They used to have the Ramps to fall back on for help as a fellow vampire Court (see the Ramps frustration about the Wamps not getting involved in the war for evidence of the relationship) but now they don't. But if they have any intel it's going to happen, or any survive, the Fomor and other opportunists will help in return for favors.
If they knew that much, they wouldn't make a move against anyone. Why start fights that aren't necessary when it could cause trouble for reality itself? They'd speak with Mab, who would discourage rash behavior. Especially when a failure would send the world into chaos.
Or the Merlin is right, and there are a bunch of wizards that only resist darker temptations because of the rules. Given the opportunity, more might join the Black Council to gain power and freedom to do what they want.
Those that replaced them are heavily restricted from what they can do. It'd be mass chaos.
Nor would Mab want to disrupt the balances in place, for fear of losing control. Don't forget that her Court is made up of things that hunt humans. She's dependent on them, and the mortal faction isn't going to stop with exterminating just one predator race.
Who replaced the old Greek and Roman gods? Who replaced the regional deities? A couple monotheistic religions that refuse to get involved in things.
Of which the most experienced would be the first to die, leaving the rest to fight with personal weapons and sabotaged equipment. For every one hundred that could fight, how many could resist the temptations offered? Could resist the mental whammies and addictive bloods and monetary rewards and bestowed powers? Of those remaining, how many will stand against monsters without flinching? Will leave their loved ones alone in the night without protection? How many would await the end as pacifists?
The vast majority of humanity is sheep, with maybe 1% making up the shepherds, and 1% making up the sheepdogs.
Here is what I think:
The super secret government agency would not start an all out war. They may not even get involved in any way beyond collecting information.
If a war did break out it would not be human kind vs the supernatural world. It would be human kind vs the supernatural world vs the supernatural world. Gods would be stabbing each other in the back, vampires would be fighting each other for power. It would be an orgy of violence that would probably set us all back a few thousand years with billions of human deaths, and the gods would all have decimated themselves. It would probably be like hitting a reset switch and we'd be back to 5,000 B.C.
Another possibility is that when the supernatural beings started attacking there would be literally billions of frightened people praying to TWG. Billions of terrified people, focusing their faith, and prayer into one basic message "Save us". I cannot help thinking that this kind of focused faith magic could cause a massive, and devastating response from TWG, Archangels, angels, and army of Nephilim. Now this wouldn't happen in the Dresden Files because well... The story would be over, and I don't see Jim ending it that way. I just think based on how things seem to work in the Dresenvesre that there would be a response.
"False gods!", "Pretenders! Usurpers of truth!" "Destroyers of faith, of families of lives, of children" "now will you answer! your time has come! Face judgement Almighty" - Changes, Murphy KoTC
In an all out war I don't see TWG sitting idle.
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Ok cool. So it does sound like the fall under the non interference version of the Watchers from the Highlander series. If Mac worked for this group he would have access to vast vast information that even the White Council may no longer have access to.
(https://images.pottermore.com/bxd3o8b291gf/2PFQnN9kbSEsm46q0yO2ku/7f581fabb62c90647937f19b8863cfc0/HogwartsLibrary_PM_B1C12M1_HogwartsLibrary_Moment.jpg?w=1200)
Quick clarification of what peregrine said: There is WOJ that their is a Special Collections Division of the Library of Congress, who are not to be messed with, and if Im not mistaken were confirmed responsible for Disappearing the Loup Garou video. So the Librarians are the only Name we know for an In-The-know Government Organization.
The Watchers are different. There is no confirmed connection between the Watchers and, well...anything at all but Mac himself, whom is the only one that we know of. Certainly there is nothing yet staying the Watchers are government related.
Not saying the theory couldnt prove true, I just wanted to make sure nobody was basing their theories on the belief we had any Watchers=Government WOJ. As you were. :)
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In a war between Humanity and the Supernatural, Humanity won't actually stand a chance. That 700 million number is astoundingly optimistic, and implies that Humanity itself would be united. Not a chance. You'd see various nations dusting off old scores to take advantage of the new chaos.
Anyway, the point is that we're fractured beyond any hope of cohesion. It wouldn't be the Supernatural World vs. 700 Million, it'd be the Supernatural World vs. 4 Million, vs. 2 Million, vs. 9 Million, vs. 1 Million, etc. In a large-scale conflict, you'd see nations seal up their borders and leave most to fend for themselves. Old alliances, like Europe and the US, might stand, but most of the rest of the world would be too focused dealing with their own issues to present any kind of united front. Especially because borders and troop movements simple don't matter to most of the supernatural world. They can take a force of several thousand, destroy a high value target, then disappear, only to reappear a day later on the opposite side of the planet. It would be a war of hopeless defense, because it's not like many of these supernatural nations have a place on earth for the vanillas to take. Most of vanilla conflicts have been about seizing or defending territory, and it simply won't work against an enemy that doesn't have any.
Vanillas can develop countermeasures and eliminate threats as they crop up, but they can only do that if A) they know where to go, and B) they can get there in time to fight. Just scaling it down to the US, you're talking about having to watch and defend every inch of, what, 3.5 million square miles? With the current US population size, you're talking about drafting, arming, and supporting a relatively small number of capable infantry. The best asset the US military would have would be air superiority. Gunships may not be good enough in a guerrilla-style war with so much land to cover. They could surely respond faster than ground troops, but you're talking about crucial minutes to get in the air and get to the fight. Bombers won't have much to bomb. They could hit places like Chichen Itza, sure, but that doesn't help much if you're fighting a force based in the Nevernever. And imagine the havoc a couple of rogue wizards could have on complex, computer-driven machinery, like jets. All it would take would be a few of them to go to the Supernatural side to turn it into a ground war.
Anyway, my point is that in battles, humanity has a real shot. We're really good at killing things. If ten thousand Fae assaulted a major city, they'd be dealt with within hours, days at most. Someone would figure out that they don't like iron, and you'd have countermeasures developed in short order. If a Black Court scourge sprang up in Manhattan, and someone noticed, it'd be eliminated immediately. Someone would figure out how to deploy holy water as a gas grenade or something, and the problem would go away. But in a full-scale war? There wouldn't be any pitched battles; there wouldn't even be urban-style street-by-street combat like we saw in Afghanistan. It'd be strike after unpredictable strike, and we'd lose, badly, without supernatural allies to counter their advantages.
I do think it's likely that the Supernatural side of things would be just as fractured. To Groinkick's point, I don't think it's likely that gods would side with the supernatural; they'd be guarding the resources that keep them and their mantles juiced up. I think the White Council would pitch in on the side of humanity, for the most part. I think that many of the individual groups would have their own rivalries and competing interests.
Now, a specialized group, like the proposed Watchers, is a different story. If, for example, they decided to eliminate the White Court, provided they had sufficient numbers and intelligence, I don't see any reason they couldn't pull it off. You're talking about what is, in my understanding, a supernatural intelligence agency. If they have significant resources, access to funding, maybe mercenaries, and their own agents (assassins, for instance), then a coordinated, decapitating strike against the White Court could eliminate them, for all intents and purposes. They may not have the reach to get all of them, but they can neuter them by reducing their ranks, seizing their assets, freezing their accounts, et cetera.
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Quick clarification of what peregrine said: There is WOJ that their is a Special Collections Division of the Library of Congress, who are not to be messed with, and if Im not mistaken were confirmed responsible for Disappearing the Loup Garou video. So the Librarians are the only Name we know for an In-The-know Government Organization.
The Watchers are different. There is no confirmed connection between the Watchers and, well...anything at all but Mac himself, whom is the only one that we know of. Certainly there is nothing yet staying the Watchers are government related.
Not saying the theory couldnt prove true, I just wanted to make sure nobody was basing their theories on the belief we had any Watchers=Government WOJ. As you were. :)
Yeah I just started calling them Watchers because I didn't know what else to call them. I theorized that Mac could have been a member, but it's not a really strong theory for me.
On the subject of the government killing vampires and it sparking a backlash... Why? If it was done in secret why would people in the supernatural community assume the government was involved? The Red Court used mortal mercenaries on several occasions, one of them against the White Council and poison gas was used. If a black SUV pulled up alongside Lara Raiths vehicle, filled it full of holes, and drove away why would anyone think the government was involved? They would most likely assume it was just another member of the White Court, or someone else from the supernatural community who wanted Lara dead.
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Yeah I just started calling them Watchers because I didn't know what else to call them. I theorized that Mac could have been a member, but it's not a really strong theory for me.
On the subject of the government killing vampires and it sparking a backlash... Why? If it was done in secret why would people in the supernatural community assume the government was involved? The Red Court used mortal mercenaries on several occasions, one of them against the White Council and poison gas was used. If a black SUV pulled up alongside Lara Raiths vehicle, filled it full of holes, and drove away why would anyone think the government was involved? They would most likely assume it was just another member of the White Court, or someone else from the supernatural community who wanted Lara dead.
This is a reasonable argument but for one thing: Magic. With things like fairies and oracle spirits and creepy Loa dolls there are a lot of ways that supernatural forces could confirm it was the work of non-supernatural forces. Assuming of course that said Non-supernatural forces are ignorant of the sorts of Supernatural steps you'd need to take to cover your tracks. If they are Informed enough they'd be just as formidable as any other supernatural organization. Worst case it would be like the Church in that mortal lifespans lead to increased Turnover and thus increased chance for corruption to take root.
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I suppose that's my biggest issue with the feasibility of it. Nicodemus has been around since long before North America was "discovered", and can hear anything said in the presence of a shadow (presumably if he knows where and when to listen).
The odds that mortals could successfully plot against him, or Mab, or Vadderung, seem extremely low. It'd require wards around facilities matching those at Edinburgh, which would themselves get noticed, peaking the interest of anyone that comes across them.
Them existing without anyone knowing about them seems incredibly unlikely.
Now, if we said their existence was known by the bigger players, but they're allowed to exist because they're considered harmless, but they were actually accruing knowledge and limited power in secret, I'd be inclined to believe it.
Here's how I'd do it. I'd make the immortal human Ziusudra the secret co-founder of the Library of Congress, and the founder of the Special Collections division. Being close to 5,000 years old, he'd be well known in the magical community, but lacking any actual power, he'd only be respected rather than feared.
With knowledge being power, he'd be formidable. He and his organization would match the intelligence and knowledge of the Archive, but without the raw magical ability. To compensate, he'd work with those who did. I could see him recruiting wizards to secretly help him.
We know from WoJ that all of the most powerful wizards have struck deals and dealt with others to gain power. Maybe Martha, Listens, and Eb are all allies of SC, and have helped them ward buildings and such in return for information. Such a faction would be alarming to Arthur, further explaining his dislike for the American consolidation of Senior Council power.
But I also like the idea of Ziusudra being above such petty politics, and could see him enabling or founding similar groups around the world (British Library, Library & Archives of Canada, etc, etc). Or the Special Collections division actually spans nations, with departments across the globe all reporting to him.
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The odds that mortals could successfully plot against him, or Mab, or Vadderung, seem extremely low. It'd require wards around facilities matching those at Edinburgh, which would themselves get noticed, peaking the interest of anyone that comes across them.
Under my theory they aren't stupid enough to mess with players like Mab, or Vadderung. If they even get involved to the point of killing anyone it would be lower level players like vampires who are maybe getting a little too close to mortal power. For example if Lara was spotted rubbing elbows with people in the White House. They might decide she's too close to the President and decide to take her out.
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I'ma put one out now... that I've been sitting on since say... CD's? Which came about from looking into a woj about 2 things missed in TC.
There is another restaurant in TC from which Madeline received her calls... someone over there watching events unfold under the same guise as Mac?
It is my belief, Mac, and two others staying in the same profession world over are actually the origins of the Graces upon the swords. It's why Mac knows 3 are coming. few postulations. The other guy is in Egypt, we know one lineage of KotC was recently from Egypt, Mac stayed in the same town as the current wielder of Love when he set up shop, the Egyptian was holder of Hope directly before Sanya.
Now for an indecipherable tangent:Mac and the 3 are the in direct correlations to 5 version of himself, the other two ending up Uriel the young and the Lucifer the trapped. Him being the most recent incarnation not of Merlin, but having followed that bit of his path/shadow in the repeating history of the gyre.
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This is a reasonable argument but for one thing: Magic. With things like fairies and oracle spirits and creepy Loa dolls there are a lot of ways that supernatural forces could confirm it was the work of non-supernatural forces.
How though? The Red Court used non-supernatural forces to kill wizards. How could they tell if the mortal forces were hired by the government, or by someone from the White Court? Mab, and Titania couldn't even figure out who killed the Summer Knight, and stole his Mantle. I'd bet Harry would find it much easier to figure out a person who murdered with magic than to try and figure out if Marcone put a hit on someone, and used guns. Neither Eb, or Thomas figured out who gunned down Harry, which you think they would both have been trying to figure it out. Lord Raith is notorious for killing off members of the White Court, yet he hasn't been figured out. Sure they probably suspect, or even know he did it. But they cannot prove it, and that's what's important to them.
Also would they care who killed one of their members enough to investigate it? The Red Court for example did not care that Harry killed one of their members. The excuse for war was that he broke the rules of hospitality, not that he actually killed her. Also to investigate say using the fairies means deal making, and a cost. Would any of the White Court care enough to invest anything into figuring out who killed Lara? I doubt it. The supernatural community seems more concerned about power. If Lara got gunned down, the families would be more concerned about grabbing power than to figure out who did it.
But lets say they investigated... Chances are they get a look at the vehicle, some mortals with guns, and an untraceable licence plate.. That could easily be a White Court operation. No trail left back to them. Especially since like I said before, Lord Raith made it a habit to kill people in his family. Didn't one of them even get thrown out of an airplane?
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How though? The Red Court used non-supernatural forces to kill wizards. How could they tell if the mortal forces were hired by the government, or by someone from the White Court? Mab, and Titania couldn't even figure out who killed the Summer Knight, and stole his Mantle. I'd bet Harry would find it much easier to figure out a person who murdered with magic than to try and figure out if Marcone put a hit on someone, and used guns. Neither Eb, or Thomas figured out who gunned down Harry, which you think they would both have been trying to figure it out.
My next sentence was important: "Assuming of course that said Non-supernatural forces are ignorant of the sorts of Supernatural steps you'd need to take to cover your tracks." All those supernatural forces you mentioned either had means to hide what what happening (one fairy Queen actively hiding things from the rest) or didnt ever bother to hide the connection (the Mortal forces everyone knew the Reds were using). Or they were Kincaid, who has been doing this long enough to know how to hide every possible track.
But also, and more importantly, I think you are dramatically underestimating the ways that Magic can simply bypass all the normal investigative paths you'd try to hide/block. Remember that at the cost of some booze and tobacco Harry, a random mid-level Wizard, was able to whistle up a being that exists simultaneously in the past and future and was able to give him Truths and Secrets that actual, literal Angels had been trying to hide and/or failed to deliver. And that wasnt even tapping into his mysterious "Green Notebook" of extra scary NN information brokers.
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My next sentence was important: "Assuming of course that said Non-supernatural forces are ignorant of the sorts of Supernatural steps you'd need to take to cover your tracks." All those supernatural forces you mentioned either had means to hide what what happening (one fairy Queen actively hiding things from the rest) or didnt ever bother to hide the connection (the Mortal forces everyone knew the Reds were using). Or they were Kincaid, who has been doing this long enough to know how to hide every possible track.
But also, and more importantly, I think you are dramatically underestimating the ways that Magic can simply bypass all the normal investigative paths you'd try to hide/block. Remember that at the cost of some booze and tobacco Harry, a random mid-level Wizard, was able to whistle up a being that exists simultaneously in the past and future and was able to give him Truths and Secrets that actual, literal Angels had been trying to hide and/or failed to deliver. And that wasnt even tapping into his mysterious "Green Notebook" of extra scary NN information brokers.
I don't agree. All kinds of people go around murdering other people. The White Council couldn't even figure out if Harry had committed murder, or acted in self defense. Harry didn't do anything to hide what he did. If they could have looked, they didn't even bother which goes to my point that nobody would even bother to investigate the murder of someone like Lara, or Lord Raith.
Also who did Harry need only tobacco and booze for? Was it Chauncy? If so the cost was a hell of a lot more, he gave up one of his Names. That's a big cost that I doubt others would be willing to pay.
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Harry didn't just have tobacco, and booze. He had Toot's Name, and used it to influence him. No White Court vamp has the ability to do that.
Actually, he used a summoning ritual that was published no less, in "Dumont's Guide to Divinationators". This was the Loa spirit he summoned in GP which told him what the Fallen had prevented Angels of Heaven from telling the KotC. To be fair the Booze and Tobacco was the price to get her to show up, her price to give actual Answers was ""An honest answer to one question. Answer me and I will tell you what you seek." (GP ch. 8). And that is the crux of my point: with the magical ecosystem of TDF, ALL information is available, the only question is whether you are willing to Pay more to find it out than others are willing to Pay to keep it hidden. There is literally nothing else standing in their way, not even Time itself, and possibly not even Death.
Toot, fwiw, always either got summoned with the historic fairy standard of milk and bread and honey, or else the more modern (and far superior) Pizza & truename.
PS. All these years and I just noticed the use of the word "Divinationators" and it's my new favorite fantasy term. ;D
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Actually, he used a summoning ritual that was published no less, in "Dumont's Guide to Divinationators". This was the Loa spirit he summoned in GP which told him what the Fallen had prevented Angels of Heaven from telling the KotC. To be fair the Booze and Tobacco was the price to get her to show up, her price to give actual Answers was ""An honest answer to one question. Answer me and I will tell you what you seek." (GP ch. 8). And that is the crux of my point: with the magical ecosystem of TDF, ALL information is available, the only question is whether you are willing to Pay more to find it out than others are willing to Pay to keep it hidden. There is literally nothing else standing in their way, not even Time itself, and possibly not even Death.
Toot, fwiw, always either got summoned with the historic fairy standard of milk and bread and honey, or else the more modern (and far superior) Pizza & truename.
PS. All these years and I just noticed the use of the word "Divinationators" and it's my new favorite fantasy term. ;D
lol. Here is how i look at it, and maybe I'm wrong. If a homeless man was shot in some part of the country, and you got the FBI, CIA, NSA, and everyone working together, you will almost certainly catch who did it. If you throw enough money, manpower, and effort you can figure out just about anything. But are those players going to get involved to solve a crime like that? No. That's how I see this. Yes if someone was determined to find out who killed Lord Raith, or Lara, and were willing to pay whatever the cost, they will get the answer. But I just don't see anyone caring enough. If anything they would be glad it happened, and consider it good fortune. Creatures on the Earthly plane just don't care enough about their brethren to find out something like that. Lara and Thomas are actually fond of each other, probably more affection there than any of the others feel for one another. But would Lara pay a big price to find out who gunned down Thomas? I don't think she would.
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I don't agree. All kinds of people go around murdering other people. The White Council couldn't even figure out if Harry had committed murder, or acted in self defense. Harry didn't do anything to hide what he did. If they could have looked, they didn't even bother which goes to my point that nobody would even bother to investigate the murder of someone like Lara, or Lord Raith.
Also who did Harry need only tobacco and booze for? Was it Chauncy? If so the cost was a hell of a lot more, he gave up one of his Names. That's a big cost that I doubt others would be willing to pay.
I think we are arguing two sides of the same thing here. With Magic the question is not ever What is Possible, only What am I willing to Pay For. If the Council had wanted to know what really happened to Justin, they could have leveraged Debt to make it happen, they simply didnt care enough because their idea of Justice has always been heavy on Expedience and light on Truth. They could have found Morgan the first day he was on the run, all they had to do wa Pay off something stronger than Titania.
which goes to my point that nobody would even bother to investigate the murder of someone like Lara, or Lord Raith.
Ok, if this was the point you were trying to make I must have missed a left-turn somewhere. I thought we were talking about the ability of a Mortal Organization that was out there targeting the Supernatural to be able to hide their activities from the Supernatural world at large. My stance is that they'd have to be much better at /supernaturally/ hiding their tracks than what we've seen from the majority of the supernatural community so far. Or else they'd eventually piss somebody off enough that they'd actually pay the Prices to find out the Truth. Also worth nothing that I am assuming the Prices that Harry was unwilling to pay even when looking for Maggie in Changes (ie. his "Green Notebook") were distasteful to him in moral ways that others (black wizards or non-mortals) wouldnt have as much trouble paying.
EDIT:
lol. Here is how i look at it, and maybe I'm wrong. If a homeless man was shot in some part of the country, and you got the FBI, CIA, NSA, and everyone working together, you will almost certainly catch who did it. If you throw enough money, manpower, and effort you can figure out just about anything. But are those players going to get involved to solve a crime like that? No. That's how I see this. Yes if someone was determined to find out who killed Lord Raith, or Lara, and were willing to pay whatever the cost, they will get the answer. But I just don't see anyone caring enough. If anything they would be glad it happened, and consider it good fortune. Creatures on the Earthly plane just don't care enough about their brethren to find out something like that. Lara and Thomas are actually fond of each other, probably more affection there than any of the others feel for one another. But would Lara pay a big price to find out who gunned down Thomas? I don't think she would.
Actually I think she would nowadays, though I expect it would be defending Court Pride far more than anything so emotional as actual familial fondness. But that's a different discussion. And I would still say that any of the Supernatural powers that found themselves loosing members, and especially if loosing Leaders, to an unknown enemy would be well-motivated by self-interest and self-preservation to turn over every rock and make every deal (or order underlings to do so) until they identified the threat.
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And I would still say that any of the Supernatural powers that found themselves loosing members, and especially if loosing Leaders, to an unknown enemy would be well-motivated by self-interest and self-preservation to turn over every rock and make every deal (or order underlings to do so) until they identified the threat.
Well if this government agency has been collecting this information for hundreds, if not thousands of years (A mortal group that's evolved over time maybe?), then they would know how they can be tracked. So they would either A. know how to cover their tracks, B. Never get involved so they cannot be tracked, or C. Do pin prick type attacks where they get rid of someone under mysterious circumstances (plane crash, car accident), and do it very rarely so as not to set off alarm bells.
That's my take on it anyways. Chances are they just collect information, and cover up messes so the public doesn't find out like with the video that vanished. Honestly I would not be surprised if Odin set the whole damn thing up as it gives him a great deal of mobility working with a completely mortal group of people that have free will... So he has his fingers in a lot of different intelligence pies so speak.
The final possibility is that when it comes to gathering information in the supernatural world it's easy to use supernatural sources while vanilla mortals are not easy to investigate by magical means because of some supernatural protections (Angels, or Sidhe, or some deity)... Kind of like you can use supernatural tools for in house problems but vanilla mortals aren't going to be as easy to snoop on these ways.
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Well if this government agency has been collecting this information for hundreds, if not thousands of years (A mortal group that's evolved over time maybe?), then they would know how they can be tracked. So they would either A. know how to cover their tracks, B. Never get involved so they cannot be tracked, or C. Do pin prick type attacks where they get rid of someone under mysterious circumstances (plane crash, car accident), and do it very rarely so as not to set off alarm bells.
That's my take on it anyways. Chances are they just collect information, and cover up messes so the public doesn't find out like with the video that vanished. Honestly I would not be surprised if Odin set the whole damn thing up as it gives him a great deal of mobility working with a completely mortal group of people that have free will... So he has his fingers in a lot of different intelligence pies so speak.
Agreed. And that's basically what it would take: either enough secret History of their own to have accumulated the knowledge themselves, or else have some Supernatural Patron. I had admittedly been assuming a US govt agency that wouldnt be any older than the country itself, but whose to say its not a spin-off of a British organization or something to give it access to longer history.
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I also wonder if they are 100% non magical. Jim said that anyone could do magic, if they worked at it enough. (paraphrasing) Full blown wizards are born with the gene "turned on" and wizards are like the Michael Jordan's of magic, but anyone can learn to do some. He also said that someone with a little talent who worked really hard could be even more dangerous than a natural born wizard who didn't work at it. Given that those in the government collect all this information it wouldn't be too big of a stretch that they either trained a lot so they have some very basic low level magic, or have acquired some talent that the White Council hadn't discovered yet like the antagonist from the first book. Heck even Harry worked for the police. They may have found some wizards willing to work for them.. That's a bit of a stretch since they are so secret though.
Wards that Harry could put up in a few hours might be achievable by a dozen lower level people who worked on them for a month. Lot more time, and energy from the low level people, same result in the end though.
If they really have gathered lots of information they may have some pretty impressive magical defenses... They just may have taken a lot more time, and effort to install.
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Ok there are a whole lot of assumptions people are making behind their arguments. Lets call them out:
1) There is a human (vanilla) agency that is collecting information on supernaturals (cannon). it is part of the library of congress. There are also mentions of other agencies like the Ventori which are mostly vanilla humans that monitor supernaturals (also cannon)
2) This agency has monitored supernaturals for hundreds of years (thousand of years)
3) This agency has a great deal of knowledge of the supernatural community.
4) This agency has access to 'black op" resources
5) This agency has some agenda beyond passive collection of information
6) This agency has access to significant amounts of useful magic (directly or via hired help)
These are a lot of assumptions and depending on how you answer them, you get a very different impact on the Dresden world. I think (historically) that most of these assumptions are wrong.
My personal assumption would be that this library of congress group has been around for several hundred years. They monitor supernatural activity, but are NOT part of the supernatural community. They have a fair bit of information, but probably get a fair number of facts wrong, and are not able to do much in the magic department. They probably have some texts and some stuff that does magic. The overall organization is small, but they have "some" informants in a number of places and ties to other organizations like the Ventori. The advent of the internet combined with the paranet has probably been a boom to them from the standpoint of making a bunch of fairly reliable information available to them. They are unlikely to have any detailed knowledge of any supernatural nation state or a lot of specific information on magic. They are NOT seen as a serious threat by the major (or moderate) supernatural nations, although many of these nations know these organizations exist.
There are a number of comparable groups out there, but not as many as you think. I think the Ventori are probably more dangerous (and more informed) than all these government or private groups combined. I do think the effectiveness, size and scope of this organization has increased significantly in the last decade or two as technology really boosted the info gathering abilities of these groups. I think the actions of the Formor have pushed these organizations to become more of a player (to defend US citizens if nothing else).
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Ok there are a whole lot of assumptions people are making behind their arguments. Lets call them out:
1) There is a human (vanilla) agency that is collecting information on supernaturals (cannon). it is part of the library of congress. There are also mentions of other agencies like the Ventori which are mostly vanilla humans that monitor supernaturals (also cannon)
2) This agency has monitored supernaturals for hundreds of years (thousand of years)
3) This agency has a great deal of knowledge of the supernatural community.
4) This agency has access to 'black op" resources
5) This agency has some agenda beyond passive collection of information
6) This agency has access to significant amounts of useful magic (directly or via hired help)
These are a lot of assumptions and depending on how you answer them, you get a very different impact on the Dresden world. I think (historically) that most of these assumptions are wrong.
My personal assumption would be that this library of congress group has been around for several hundred years. They monitor supernatural activity, but are NOT part of the supernatural community. They have a fair bit of information, but probably get a fair number of facts wrong, and are not able to do much in the magic department. They probably have some texts and some stuff that does magic. The overall organization is small, but they have "some" informants in a number of places and ties to other organizations like the Ventori. The advent of the internet combined with the paranet has probably been a boom to them from the standpoint of making a bunch of fairly reliable information available to them. They are unlikely to have any detailed knowledge of any supernatural nation state or a lot of specific information on magic. They are NOT seen as a serious threat by the major (or moderate) supernatural nations, although many of these nations know these organizations exist.
There are a number of comparable groups out there, but not as many as you think. I think the Ventori are probably more dangerous (and more informed) than all these government or private groups combined. I do think the effectiveness, size and scope of this organization has increased significantly in the last decade or two as technology really boosted the info gathering abilities of these groups. I think the actions of the Formor have pushed these organizations to become more of a player (to defend US citizens if nothing else).
I do believe Jim said that nobody knows of their existence. They must be a reasonably large scale operation. Why? Because within virtually hours of a video of a werewolf being recorded they showed up and took the evidence. That's either luck, or they are very good at locating this kind of thing. To be that good usually requires a pretty good sized network of informants an intelligence gathering capabilities.
Why just a few hundred years? In Cannon humans have been killing wizards, and supernatural beings for a really long time. It's only in more modern times that humans stopped believing in it. Wouldn't it make sense that over a long period of time these groups grew, and modernized with the times, and what we have now is an end result of that growth?
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library of congress most likely its roots in the library of Alexandria that a certain Merlin tried
to save. And Most likely have connections to Grey Council , and Beings of the The Higher order of things. because of this..
https://www.loc.gov/about/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Congress
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Minerva_of_Peace.jpg
https://www.loc.gov/item/2007684369/
https://www.loc.gov/visit/tours/online-tours/thomas-jefferson-building/main-reading-room/?loclr=bloglaw
http://wmmorrisfanclub.blogspot.com/2010/05/minerva-at-library-of-congress.html
Elihu Vedder's marble mosaic of Minerva of Peace, her armor laid aside, standing guard before the Main Reading Room and holding in her hand a scroll that lists the various disciplines of learning, science, and art
The men in black are the mortal authorities
The Ventori where more than likely where created by the The white court thousands of years ago As Cats Pawns considering that the two members are hight ranking WCvs.
Lara , Thomas , and possibly Lord Raith.
Lord Raith being One of the Founding members could of been how Lara got involved while
she was in his thrall.
The Circle has been been useing the ventori through raiths and The archive Ivy
as their deep cover agents ,spies, assassins, etc hence the Oblivion War headed by the archive trying to get reed of Shidhe that or the watching the gates.
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library of congress most likely its roots in the library of Alexandria that a certain Merlin tried
to save. And Most likely have connections to Grey Council , and Beings of the The Higher order of things. because of this..
https://www.loc.gov/about/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Congress
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Minerva_of_Peace.jpg
https://www.loc.gov/item/2007684369/
https://www.loc.gov/visit/tours/online-tours/thomas-jefferson-building/main-reading-room/?loclr=bloglaw
http://wmmorrisfanclub.blogspot.com/2010/05/minerva-at-library-of-congress.html
Elihu Vedder's marble mosaic of Minerva of Peace, her armor laid aside, standing guard before the Main Reading Room and holding in her hand a scroll that lists the various disciplines of learning, science, and art
The men in black are the mortal authorities
The Ventori where more than likely where created by the The white court thousands of years ago As Cats Pawns considering that the two members are hight ranking WCvs.
Lara , Thomas , and possibly Lord Raith.
Lord Raith being One of the Founding members could of been how Lara got involved while
she was in his thrall.
The Circle has been been useing the ventori through raiths and The archive Ivy
as their deep cover agents ,spies, assassins, etc hence the Oblivion War headed by the archive trying to get reed of Shidhe that or the watching the gates.
It might be interesting if there's another mosaic in the Dresdenverse LoC called Minerva of War, with her wearing her armor and prepared to fight. It'd have to be located outside the LoCSC war rooms, of course.
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I do believe Jim said that nobody knows of their existence. They must be a reasonably large scale operation. Why? Because within virtually hours of a video of a werewolf being recorded they showed up and took the evidence. That's either luck, or they are very good at locating this kind of thing. To be that good usually requires a pretty good sized network of informants an intelligence gathering capabilities.
a) The supernatural nations themselves do this type of policing - and Harry himself suggested that they were the ones that took the tape and insured people considered it a fraud.
b) Anonymity and "a large scale operation" do not go together. Any large scale operation would be known to the supernatural nations as they do monitor governments. And the library of congress' budget is public knowledge.
c) Human nations do not believe supernaturals exist - or they would act differently. If they do not believe supernatural exist, then they will not spend the billions necessary to fund a supernatural focused agency. And if they did, they would have recruited every black cat captain in the various police forces - which means Murphy would have worked for them years ago. Hell the Church knows they exist, but their organization is still a skeleton organization as described by the good father.
Why just a few hundred years? In Cannon humans have been killing wizards, and supernatural beings for a really long time. It's only in more modern times that humans stopped believing in it. Wouldn't it make sense that over a long period of time these groups grew, and modernized with the times, and what we have now is an end result of that growth?
It is a annex of the library of congress - which means a few hundred years old at most. Not saying that naturals have not been monitoring supernatural for longer, but this particular organization has probably not been around longer than that. The agency was almost certainly instigated by some people "in the know".
Keep in mind that intelligence agencies of any kind are a recent thing (few hundred years). Diplomats as a specific organization have only been around about 500 years. Prior to that (and outside the church), there really was just the nobility and the merchant princes and guilds (which is basically what the white council is). Agencies simply did not exist.