The Watchers

[groinkick]

Jim has stated that there are those in the government that know about the supernatural world, and they are super secret.  I started a previous thread on the Highlander series and immortals.  On that series there are Watchers.  I don't believe they work for any government but they are a super secret group of people who watch immortals, but don't interfere.  At one point in the series a conflict broke out between immortals, and Watchers.  The Watchers were killing immortals (who didn't know the Watchers even existed).

Anyways I'm wondering if this super secrete government agency that knows of the supernatural community is connected to Mac, and that's why he was called a Watcher (mortals who are aware of, and study the supernatural world in secret).  It's speculation, and I still haven't abandoned the idea that Mac is more on the supernatural side of things but thought it would be a fun discussion. 

I also think that if this is true, it would be interesting if sometime down the line just like the Watchers got involved in attacking immortals that at some point the secrete government agency involved with just monitoring the supernatural world decides to get involved for whatever reason.

[peregrine]

They're part of the Library of Congress per some WoJ.  Special Collections Division.

[groinkick]

They're part of the Library of Congress per some WoJ.  Special Collections Division.

Ok cool.  So it does sound like the fall under the non interference version of the Watchers from the Highlander series.  If Mac worked for this group he would have access to vast vast information that even the White Council may no longer have access to.

[Snark Knight]

I rather doubt getting one's bar listed as Accorded Neutral Ground is consistent with the level of secrecy the government spooks try to maintain.

I wonder, though, were the clued Feds in the comic Dog Men a branch of the Special Collections department? They didn't seem to mind LtW and Dresden knowing that they knew about the supernatural. Are there multiple clued in government groups?

[Griffyn612]

The only threat the Watchers/Librarians would pose would be if they had Names.  And even then, they wouldn't be able to do anything against the beings, since knowing a Name isn't enough to defeat a creature.

Now, if a Watcher/Librarian that knew Names were to team up with the Warden of the Well, who could use the Names to summon beings and use the Well to imprison them, then they'd be a viable threat.  But after the very first time, any being that knew the W/L had their name and was willing to use it would move against them. 

[raidem]

Mac being a watcher is having a profession or role where his life really isn't in jeopardy even on Halloween.  Subsurface would have just attempted to kill him then and there instead of just getting to Harry.  I mean Mac could have been named many times but he wasn't so I think it, to sharkface point of view, a pointless action right now.

[groinkick]

I rather doubt getting one's bar listed as Accorded Neutral Ground is consistent with the level of secrecy the government spooks try to maintain.

Didn't Mac say somewhere that he was simply "out"?  Whatever it was he did in the past, he appears to have stepped down, and isn't picking sides.

[Snark Knight]

The only threat the Watchers/Librarians would pose would be if they had Names.

That rather depends who they're intending to threaten. Mantled immortals, sure, they're pretty well out of the reach of any government. But given that the feds are well aware of Harry and have been keeping an eye on him for a while, surveillance likely would have noticed Carlos, Eb, Thomas, and most of the other domestic known associates. If they're sharp, they've probably worked backward from Thomas to figure the Raith family are something more than just very very rich, and Lara's influence campaign among non-clued federal agencies is probably scaring the hell out of them. Should they decide to test how tough a warden or a whampire really is, a car bomb or a sniper's bullet is just as dangerous coming from Special Collections as from Kincaid or Marcone.

[Griffyn612]

That rather depends who they're intending to threaten. Mantled immortals, sure, they're pretty well out of the reach of any government. But given that the feds are well aware of Harry and have been keeping an eye on him for a while, surveillance likely would have noticed Carlos, Eb, Thomas, and most of the other domestic known associates. If they're sharp, they've probably worked backward from Thomas to figure the Raith family are something more than just very very rich, and Lara's influence campaign among non-clued federal agencies is probably scaring the hell out of them. Should they decide to test how tough a warden or a whampire really is, a car bomb or a sniper's bullet is just as dangerous coming from Special Collections as from Kincaid or Marcone.

And the moment they do, and they're discovered, they'll have nothing to protect themselves.  A squad of Ramps ram wild in an FBI building.  A coordinated assault by and of the supernatural factions would be much worse. 

And given that they're all interested in knowing about everything, and have resources mortals can only dream about, they'd probably eliminated shortly after such orders were given.

Basically, I expect official monitoring of the supernatural to go as unnoticed and well as Carver's surveillance of Harry.

[peregrine]

Yeah, but there's a reason Harry calls bringing mortals into the fight as a "nuclear option."  For one thing, mortals have the literal nuclear option.  Or at a lesser extent, the carpet bombing option.  How well would things have gone for most of the Red Court if Harry had opened up his fight with a flight of bombers dropping white phosphorus all over the area?

If the various supernatural forces out there thought they could win a head on war with mortals, they wouldn't be hiding but ruling.

I mean, sure they took out an FBI Building.  But the vast majority of the people there were admin and investigators.  The heaviest thing in the arsenal might have been a rifle, and probably was a pistol.  Try that against a base prepared for such an attack, and things will go differently.  And even if they do manage to take it out, there's the vast difference in numbers.  Humanity can afford to lose 10-1 to take out the Rampires or whatever.

[Griffyn612]

Yeah, but there's a reason Harry calls bringing mortals into the fight as a "nuclear option."  For one thing, mortals have the literal nuclear option.  Or at a lesser extent, the carpet bombing option.  How well would things have gone for most of the Red Court if Harry had opened up his fight with a flight of bombers dropping white phosphorus all over the area?

If the various supernatural forces out there thought they could win a head on war with mortals, they wouldn't be hiding but ruling.

I mean, sure they took out an FBI Building.  But the vast majority of the people there were admin and investigators.  The heaviest thing in the arsenal might have been a rifle, and probably was a pistol.  Try that against a base prepared for such an attack, and things will go differently.  And even if they do manage to take it out, there's the vast difference in numbers.  Humanity can afford to lose 10-1 to take out the Rampires or whatever.

It took one wizard with a walking stick to set of Krakatoa.  What do you think a retired god could do to Yellowstone? 

What's to stop the Fomor from hijacking a sub armed with nukes, taking the payload and having someone detonate a few in the upper atmosphere in strategic locations, to knock out electronics?  Or detonating them inside military bases and ports, security bunkers, or the Pentagon?

If they needed to, the supernatural community could neutralize humanity's threat.  The only thing stopping them is the lack of necessity.  They get more with the status quo than they do in all-out war.  The more reasoned minds keep the rest in check.

But if humanity starts it, they won't let themselves be exterminated.

[groinkick]

It took one wizard with a walking stick to set of Krakatoa.  What do you think a retired god could do to Yellowstone? 

Wizards have free will, gods do not.

What's to stop the Fomor from hijacking a sub armed with nukes, taking the payload and having someone detonate a few in the upper atmosphere in strategic locations, to knock out electronics?  Or detonating them inside military bases and ports, security bunkers, or the Pentagon?

Probably the same thing that stops wizards from using computers.  Also the Fomor would then be targeted by just about every other supernatural thing out there

If they needed to, the supernatural community could neutralize humanity's threat.  The only thing stopping them is the lack of necessity.  They get more with the status quo than they do in all-out war.  The more reasoned minds keep the rest in check.

But if humanity starts it, they won't let themselves be exterminated.

It's not all of humanity vs all of the supernatural world.  If a war broke out between say the vampire courts, and humanity the chances are good that factions would join humanity, and humanity would accept them as allies. 

It's common knowledge how important human belief, worship ect is required for many gods, and supernatural beings to even exist.  They aren't going to stand by and watch their source of power be exterminated by the Fomor or vampires.  For many in the supernatural world to destroy humanity is no different than ending their own existence.  They need humans for worship.  Vampires need humans for food.  Remove humanity, remove themselves.  That's why they don't want war, and if they fought humanity in a war they would just end up destroying their only source of power.

They would be dooming themselves into Oblivion.... 

[Griffyn612]

Wizards have free will, gods do not.
Probably the same thing that stops wizards from using computers.  Also the Fomor would then be targeted by just about every other supernatural thing out there

It's not all of humanity vs all of the supernatural world.  If a war broke out between say the vampire courts, and humanity the chances are good that factions would join humanity, and humanity would accept them as allies. 

It's common knowledge how important human belief, worship ect is required for many gods, and supernatural beings to even exist.  They aren't going to stand by and watch their source of power be exterminated by the Fomor or vampires.  For many in the supernatural world to destroy humanity is no different than ending their own existence.  They need humans for worship.  Vampires need humans for food.  Remove humanity, remove themselves.  That's why they don't want war, and if they fought humanity in a war they would just end up destroying their only source of power.

They would be dooming themselves into Oblivion....

We're not talking about the Fomor instigating a war with humanity, which the supernatural community would prevent.  We're talking about a human government agency hunting and killing supernatural creatures, the creatures responding, and humanity escalating things further.

Once things go far enough, it'll be humans versus the combined might of the supernatural world.  At that point, all the old rules are back.  The new rules, where the gods idle their time away, will be gone.  It'll be fire and brimstone and worse.

Edit: Also, there's been no evidence than anyone else in he supernatural community has the same tech weakness as the wizards.  We've seen evidence of the opposite.

[groinkick]

Once things go far enough, it'll be humans versus the combined might of the supernatural world.  At that point, all the old rules are back.  The new rules, where the gods idle their time away, will be gone.  It'll be fire and brimstone and worse.

Why?  Humans can't attack the idle gods.  Can't attack Winter or Summer.  Cannot attack Hades or Zeus.  Humans are limited to fighting in the Earthly plane.  Why would Mab, or Hades, or the old gods get involved against humanity in a war with say the Fomor?  What would the benefit be?  In actuality these gods would see it as an opportunity to remove the Fomor.  There is no reason for the gods to side with vampires, fomor, ghouls, or any other Earthly realm beings.  The gods are beyond humanities reach, and are no friends to most of the supernatural creatures who call Earth their home.

[Griffyn612]

Why?  Humans can't attack the idle gods.  Can't attack Winter or Summer.  Cannot attack Hades or Zeus.  Humans are limited to fighting in the Earthly plane.  Why would Mab, or Hades, or the old gods get involved against humanity in a war with say the Fomor?  What would the benefit be?  In actuality these gods would see it as an opportunity to remove the Fomor.  There is no reason for the gods to side with vampires, fomor, ghouls, or any other Earthly realm beings.  The gods are beyond humanities reach, and are no friends to most of the supernatural creatures who call Earth their home.

Because the proposed attack wasn't on the Fomor.  It was in the Whamps.  Lara would not sit idly by as her people were killed.  She'd go after whoever was responsible.  So it'd either end quickly, with the humans smacked down and put in their place, or it'd escalate. 

If it escalated, with humanity bringing their weapons to bear, then the opportunistic sort like the Fomor would back the Wamps.  The Sidhe Courts can't work together, so you'd have two of the most powerful factions ready to fight the humans to prevent their extinction, with the others limited in what they could do.  And you know Cristos would be warning the wizards that the vanilla mortals would turn on them at the earliest opportunity, just like they did during the witch hunts.

And how many other minor gods out there are weak because of a lack of faith and opportunity?  How many others would love a return to the old ways?  To scare the hell out of the humans in their domain, feed off their compliance, and grow stronger?

The humans would fight back, and so would the supernatural.  Some mortal working for the government would figure out a way to open a Way to somewhere important (Arctis Tor, perhaps, with the help of Cowl?) and they'd send a nuke in a la the World Council in the Avengers, or the US in Independence Day.  And then the Courts *will* be involved, and not on humanity's side.

The supernatural creatures would just open Ways into every nuclear missile silo, storage facility, and sub, and just take the entire arsenal.  Butterfly-winged faeries would carry them in orbit and above the cities and set them off, knocking out satellites and electronics.  Buried phone and internet trunk lines would be broken.  Power plants would be sabotaged even worse than they were in DB, sending the population into the dark ages. 

And then the old gods would come, making humanity capitulate.  Many would fight, but we're talking maybe 50 million military personnel to protect 7 billion?  With no nukes, against an enemy that has them, that can go ahead and nuke every military base and port?