The Watchers

[groinkick]

Ok this is a lot to respond to.  We are talking about a secret organization that has been keeping track of the supernatural world for a very long time, gathering huge amounts of information.  This isn't just random mortals attacking the supernatural community.  An attack led by this group would be organized, precise, and lethal.  They would know who could be reasoned with, who can be bargained with, who can be allied with, and who should be destroyed.  We are talking about who I deemed "watchers".  We aren't talking about just mortal governments right now.

It was in the Whamps.  Lara would not sit idly by as her people were killed.  She'd go after whoever was responsible.  So it'd either end quickly, with the humans smacked down and put in their place, or it'd escalate. 

Ok first off the White Court is incredibly weak in the grand scheme of things.  Easily defeated by mortals.  An organized military strike on the White Court would not be difficult, and unlike the Black Court, and Red Court the White Court cannot even spread their race in any meaningful way.  With likely centuries of intelligence gathered on the White Court, the entire family could be wiped out with incredible speed, and efficiency.

If it escalated, with humanity bringing their weapons to bear, then the opportunistic sort like the Fomor would back the Wamps.  The Sidhe Courts can't work together, so you'd have two of the most powerful factions ready to fight the humans to prevent their extinction, with the others limited in what they could do. 

The Sidhe are the ones who drove the Fomor into the oceans.  They are enemies.  The "Watchers" would know that the Sidhe act as protectors from the Outside (if they are actually good at gathering information from the supernatural community).  They would not attack, or threaten the Sidhe.  As a matter of fact they would know that the Sidhe are deal makers, and will absolutely stand by any deal made.  They could be reasoned with and the Watchers would seek that avenue.

And you know Cristos would be warning the wizards that the vanilla mortals would turn on them at the earliest opportunity, just like they did during the witch hunts.

Maybe or the Wizard would have the choice of choosing between humanity, or the supernatural world.  Given the choice of humans, or vampires I'm guessing the wizards would choose humanity. 

And how many other minor gods out there are weak because of a lack of faith and opportunity?  How many others would love a return to the old ways?  To scare the hell out of the humans in their domain, feed off their compliance, and grow stronger?

They were replaced.  If they want to step on the toes of those who replaced them it would probably be at their own peril.

The humans would fight back, and so would the supernatural.  Some mortal working for the government would figure out a way to open a Way to somewhere important (Arctis Tor, perhaps, with the help of Cowl?) and they'd send a nuke in a la the World Council in the Avengers, or the US in Independence Day.  And then the Courts *will* be involved, and not on humanity's side.

Yeah if it's scared mortals launching an all out attack.  This speculation is supposed to be about attack brought on by the Watchers.  They aren't uneducated to the supernatural.  They wouldn't want to attack the Sidhe as I stated above.  They know a deal could be struck, and the Sidhe would not break a treaty.

And then the old gods would come, making humanity capitulate. 

As I said before, they were replaced.  They would get beat down by those who replaced them.

Many would fight, but we're talking maybe 50 million military personnel to protect 7 billion?  With no nukes, against an enemy that has them, that can go ahead and nuke every military base and port?

50 million active.  Realistically probably 1 in 10 people can fight.  So more like 700 million.

[Griffyn612]

Ok this is a lot to respond to.  We are talking about a secret organization that has been keeping track of the supernatural world for a very long time, gathering huge amounts of information.  This isn't just random mortals attacking the supernatural community.

That's what you're proposing.  What others proposed was sniping some Whamps to see what they were made of.

An attack led by this group would be organized, precise, and lethal.  They would know who could be reasoned with, who can be bargained with, who can be allied with, and who should be destroyed.  We are talking about who I deemed "watchers".  We aren't talking about just mortal governments right now.

Is your proposed group working in complete secrecy, avoiding detection by the likes of Mab and Vadderung and the Wamp agents in the government and the Ramps' old people and the magical seers and the faeries watching everything everywhere?

Because if anyone knows, they'll be working to compromise their security, Intel, and possible plans.  They're not plotting in a vacuum.

Ok first off the White Court is incredibly weak in the grand scheme of things.  Easily defeated by mortals.  An organized military strike on the White Court would not be difficult, and unlike the Black Court, and Red Court the White Court cannot even spread their race in any meaningful way.  With likely centuries of intelligence gathered on the White Court, the entire family could be wiped out with incredible speed, and efficiency.

Hence why their influence gathering of late is so important.  They used to have the Ramps to fall back on for help as a fellow vampire Court (see the Ramps frustration about the Wamps not getting involved in the war for evidence of the relationship) but now they don't.  But if they have any intel it's going to happen, or any survive, the Fomor and other opportunists will help in return for favors.

The Sidhe are the ones who drove the Fomor into the oceans.  They are enemies.  The "Watchers" would know that the Sidhe act as protectors from the Outside (if they are actually good at gathering information from the supernatural community).  They would not attack, or threaten the Sidhe.  As a matter of fact they would know that the Sidhe are deal makers, and will absolutely stand by any deal made.  They could be reasoned with and the Watchers would seek that avenue.

If they knew that much, they wouldn't make a move against anyone.  Why start fights that aren't necessary when it could cause trouble for reality itself?  They'd speak with Mab, who would discourage rash behavior.  Especially when a failure would send the world into chaos.

Maybe or the Wizard would have the choice of choosing between humanity, or the supernatural world.  Given the choice of humans, or vampires I'm guessing the wizards would choose humanity.

Or the Merlin is right, and there are a bunch of wizards that only resist darker temptations because of the rules.  Given the opportunity, more might join the Black Council to gain power and freedom to do what they want.

They were replaced.  If they want to step on the toes of those who replaced them it would probably be at their own peril.

Those that replaced them are heavily restricted from what they can do.  It'd be mass chaos.

Yeah if it's scared mortals launching an all out attack.  This speculation is supposed to be about attack brought on by the Watchers.  They aren't uneducated to the supernatural.  They wouldn't want to attack the Sidhe as I stated above.  They know a deal could be struck, and the Sidhe would not break a treaty.

Nor would Mab want to disrupt the balances in place, for fear of losing control.  Don't forget that her Court is made up of things that hunt humans.  She's dependent on them, and the mortal faction isn't going to stop with exterminating just one predator race.

As I said before, they were replaced.  They would get beat down by those who replaced them.

Who replaced the old Greek and Roman gods?  Who replaced the regional deities?  A couple monotheistic religions that refuse to get involved in things.

50 million active.  Realistically probably 1 in 10 people can fight.  So more like 700 million.

Of which the most experienced would be the first to die, leaving the rest to fight with personal weapons and sabotaged equipment.  For every one hundred that could fight, how many could resist the temptations offered?  Could resist the mental whammies and addictive bloods and monetary rewards and bestowed powers?  Of those remaining, how many will stand against monsters without flinching?  Will leave their loved ones alone in the night without protection?  How many would await the end as pacifists? 

The vast majority of humanity is sheep, with maybe 1% making up the shepherds, and 1% making up the sheepdogs. 

[groinkick]

That's what you're proposing.  What others proposed was sniping some Whamps to see what they were made of.

Yeah that was a mistake on my part.  I read your response without looking to see what you were actually responding to.  My bad.

Is your proposed group working in complete secrecy, avoiding detection by the likes of Mab and Vadderung and the Wamp agents in the government and the Ramps' old people and the magical seers and the faeries watching everything everywhere?

According to Jim, yes.  He said words to the effect if they were discovered, that would be it for them. (working from memory, hopefully I'm remembering correctly)

Because if anyone knows, they'll be working to compromise their security, Intel, and possible plans.  They're not plotting in a vacuum.
Hence why their influence gathering of late is so important.  They used to have the Ramps to fall back on for help as a fellow vampire Court (see the Ramps frustration about the Wamps not getting involved in the war for evidence of the relationship) but now they don't.  But if they have any intel it's going to happen, or any survive, the Fomor and other opportunists will help in return for favors.
If they knew that much, they wouldn't make a move against anyone.  Why start fights that aren't necessary when it could cause trouble for reality itself?  They'd speak with Mab, who would discourage rash behavior.  Especially when a failure would send the world into chaos.
Or the Merlin is right, and there are a bunch of wizards that only resist darker temptations because of the rules.  Given the opportunity, more might join the Black Council to gain power and freedom to do what they want.
Those that replaced them are heavily restricted from what they can do.  It'd be mass chaos.
Nor would Mab want to disrupt the balances in place, for fear of losing control.  Don't forget that her Court is made up of things that hunt humans.  She's dependent on them, and the mortal faction isn't going to stop with exterminating just one predator race.
Who replaced the old Greek and Roman gods?  Who replaced the regional deities?  A couple monotheistic religions that refuse to get involved in things.
Of which the most experienced would be the first to die, leaving the rest to fight with personal weapons and sabotaged equipment.  For every one hundred that could fight, how many could resist the temptations offered?  Could resist the mental whammies and addictive bloods and monetary rewards and bestowed powers?  Of those remaining, how many will stand against monsters without flinching?  Will leave their loved ones alone in the night without protection?  How many would await the end as pacifists? 

The vast majority of humanity is sheep, with maybe 1% making up the shepherds, and 1% making up the sheepdogs.

Here is what I think:
The super secret government agency would not start an all out war.  They may not even get involved in any way beyond collecting information. 

If a war did break out it would not be human kind vs the supernatural world.  It would be  human kind vs the supernatural world vs the supernatural world.  Gods would be stabbing each other in the back, vampires would be fighting each other for power.  It would be an orgy of violence that would probably set us all back a few thousand years with billions of human deaths, and the gods would all have decimated themselves.  It would probably be like hitting a reset switch and we'd be back to 5,000 B.C.

Another possibility is that when the supernatural beings started attacking there would be literally billions of frightened people praying to TWG.  Billions of terrified people, focusing their faith, and prayer into one basic message "Save us".  I cannot help thinking that this kind of focused faith magic could cause a massive, and devastating response from TWG, Archangels, angels, and army of Nephilim.  Now this wouldn't happen in the Dresden Files because well... The story would be over, and I don't see Jim ending it that way.  I just think based on how things seem to work in the Dresenvesre that there would be a response. 

"False gods!", "Pretenders!  Usurpers of truth!" "Destroyers of faith, of families of lives, of children"  "now will you answer!  your time has come!  Face judgement Almighty" - Changes, Murphy KoTC

In an all out war I don't see TWG sitting idle.

[Quantus]

Ok cool.  So it does sound like the fall under the non interference version of the Watchers from the Highlander series.  If Mac worked for this group he would have access to vast vast information that even the White Council may no longer have access to.

Quick clarification of what peregrine said:  There is WOJ that their is a Special Collections Division of the Library of Congress, who are not to be messed with, and if Im not mistaken were confirmed responsible for Disappearing the Loup Garou video.  So the Librarians are the only Name we know for an In-The-know Government Organization.

The Watchers are different.  There is no confirmed connection between the Watchers and, well...anything at all but Mac himself, whom is the only one that we know of.  Certainly there is nothing yet staying the Watchers are government related. 

Not saying the theory couldnt prove true, I just wanted to make sure nobody was basing their theories on the belief we had any Watchers=Government WOJ.  As you were. 

[Kindler]

In a war between Humanity and the Supernatural, Humanity won't actually stand a chance. That 700 million number is astoundingly optimistic, and implies that Humanity itself would be united. Not a chance. You'd see various nations dusting off old scores to take advantage of the new chaos.

Anyway, the point is that we're fractured beyond any hope of cohesion. It wouldn't be the Supernatural World vs. 700 Million, it'd be the Supernatural World vs. 4 Million, vs. 2 Million, vs. 9 Million, vs. 1 Million, etc. In a large-scale conflict, you'd see nations seal up their borders and leave most to fend for themselves. Old alliances, like Europe and the US, might stand, but most of the rest of the world would be too focused dealing with their own issues to present any kind of united front. Especially because borders and troop movements simple don't matter to most of the supernatural world. They can take a force of several thousand, destroy a high value target, then disappear, only to reappear a day later on the opposite side of the planet. It would be a war of hopeless defense, because it's not like many of these supernatural nations have a place on earth for the vanillas to take. Most of vanilla conflicts have been about seizing or defending territory, and it simply won't work against an enemy that doesn't have any.

Vanillas can develop countermeasures and eliminate threats as they crop up, but they can only do that if A) they know where to go, and B) they can get there in time to fight. Just scaling it down to the US, you're talking about having to watch and defend every inch of, what, 3.5 million square miles? With the current US population size, you're talking about drafting, arming, and supporting a relatively small number of capable infantry. The best asset the US military would have would be air superiority. Gunships may not be good enough in a guerrilla-style war with so much land to cover. They could surely respond faster than ground troops, but you're talking about crucial minutes to get in the air and get to the fight. Bombers won't have much to bomb. They could hit places like Chichen Itza, sure, but that doesn't help much if you're fighting a force based in the Nevernever. And imagine the havoc a couple of rogue wizards could have on complex, computer-driven machinery, like jets. All it would take would be a few of them to go to the Supernatural side to turn it into a ground war.

Anyway, my point is that in battles, humanity has a real shot. We're really good at killing things. If ten thousand Fae assaulted a major city, they'd be dealt with within hours, days at most. Someone would figure out that they don't like iron, and you'd have countermeasures developed in short order. If a Black Court scourge sprang up in Manhattan, and someone noticed, it'd be eliminated immediately. Someone would figure out how to deploy holy water as a gas grenade or something, and the problem would go away. But in a full-scale war? There wouldn't be any pitched battles; there wouldn't even be urban-style street-by-street combat like we saw in Afghanistan. It'd be strike after unpredictable strike, and we'd lose, badly, without supernatural allies to counter their advantages.

I do think it's likely that the Supernatural side of things would be just as fractured. To Groinkick's point, I don't think it's likely that gods would side with the supernatural; they'd be guarding the resources that keep them and their mantles juiced up. I think the White Council would pitch in on the side of humanity, for the most part. I think that many of the individual groups would have their own rivalries and competing interests.

Now, a specialized group, like the proposed Watchers, is a different story. If, for example, they decided to eliminate the White Court, provided they had sufficient numbers and intelligence, I don't see any reason they couldn't pull it off. You're talking about what is, in my understanding, a supernatural intelligence agency. If they have significant resources, access to funding, maybe mercenaries, and their own agents (assassins, for instance), then a coordinated, decapitating strike against the White Court could eliminate them, for all intents and purposes. They may not have the reach to get all of them, but they can neuter them by reducing their ranks, seizing their assets, freezing their accounts, et cetera.

[groinkick]

Quick clarification of what peregrine said:  There is WOJ that their is a Special Collections Division of the Library of Congress, who are not to be messed with, and if Im not mistaken were confirmed responsible for Disappearing the Loup Garou video.  So the Librarians are the only Name we know for an In-The-know Government Organization.

The Watchers are different.  There is no confirmed connection between the Watchers and, well...anything at all but Mac himself, whom is the only one that we know of.  Certainly there is nothing yet staying the Watchers are government related. 

Not saying the theory couldnt prove true, I just wanted to make sure nobody was basing their theories on the belief we had any Watchers=Government WOJ.  As you were. 

Yeah I just started calling them Watchers because I didn't know what else to call them.  I theorized that Mac could have been a member, but it's not a really strong theory for me.


On the subject of the government killing vampires and it sparking a backlash...  Why?  If it was done in secret why would people in the supernatural community assume the government was involved?  The Red Court used mortal mercenaries on several occasions, one of them against the White Council and poison gas was used.  If a black SUV pulled up alongside Lara Raiths vehicle, filled it full of holes, and drove away why would anyone think the government was involved?  They would most likely assume it was just another member of the White Court, or someone else from the supernatural community who wanted Lara dead.

[Quantus]

Yeah I just started calling them Watchers because I didn't know what else to call them.  I theorized that Mac could have been a member, but it's not a really strong theory for me.


On the subject of the government killing vampires and it sparking a backlash...  Why?  If it was done in secret why would people in the supernatural community assume the government was involved?  The Red Court used mortal mercenaries on several occasions, one of them against the White Council and poison gas was used.  If a black SUV pulled up alongside Lara Raiths vehicle, filled it full of holes, and drove away why would anyone think the government was involved?  They would most likely assume it was just another member of the White Court, or someone else from the supernatural community who wanted Lara dead.

This is a reasonable argument but for one thing: Magic.  With things like fairies and oracle spirits and creepy Loa dolls there are a lot of ways that supernatural forces could confirm it was the work of non-supernatural forces.  Assuming of course that said Non-supernatural forces are ignorant of the sorts of Supernatural steps you'd need to take to cover your tracks.  If they are Informed enough they'd be just as formidable as any other supernatural organization.  Worst case it would be like the Church in that mortal lifespans lead to increased Turnover and thus increased chance for corruption to take root. 

[Griffyn612]

I suppose that's my biggest issue with the feasibility of it.  Nicodemus has been around since long before North America was "discovered", and can hear anything said in the presence of a shadow (presumably if he knows where and when to listen).

The odds that mortals could successfully plot against him, or Mab, or Vadderung, seem extremely low.  It'd require wards around facilities matching those at Edinburgh, which would themselves get noticed, peaking the interest of anyone that comes across them.

Them existing without anyone knowing about them seems incredibly unlikely.

Now, if we said their existence was known by the bigger players, but they're allowed to exist because they're considered harmless, but they were actually accruing knowledge and limited power in secret, I'd be inclined to believe it.

Here's how I'd do it.  I'd make the immortal human Ziusudra the secret co-founder of the Library of Congress, and the founder of the Special Collections division.  Being close to 5,000 years old, he'd be well known in the magical community, but lacking any actual power, he'd only be respected rather than feared.

With knowledge being power, he'd be formidable.  He and his organization would match the intelligence and knowledge of the Archive, but without the raw magical ability.  To compensate, he'd work with those who did.  I could see him recruiting wizards to secretly help him. 

We know from WoJ that all of the most powerful wizards have struck deals and dealt with others to gain power.  Maybe Martha, Listens, and Eb are all allies of SC, and have helped them ward buildings and such in return for information.  Such a faction would be alarming to Arthur, further explaining his dislike for the American consolidation of Senior Council power.

But I also like the idea of Ziusudra being above such petty politics, and could see him enabling or founding similar groups around the world (British Library, Library & Archives of Canada, etc, etc).   Or the Special Collections division actually spans nations, with departments across the globe all reporting to him.

[groinkick]

The odds that mortals could successfully plot against him, or Mab, or Vadderung, seem extremely low.  It'd require wards around facilities matching those at Edinburgh, which would themselves get noticed, peaking the interest of anyone that comes across them.

Under my theory they aren't stupid enough to mess with players like Mab, or Vadderung.  If they even get involved to the point of killing anyone it would be lower level players like vampires who are maybe getting a little too close to mortal power.  For example if Lara was spotted rubbing elbows with people in the White House.  They might decide she's too close to the President and decide to take her out.

[jonas]

I'ma put one out now... that I've been sitting on since say... CD's? Which came about from looking into a woj about 2 things missed in TC.
There is another restaurant in TC from which Madeline received her calls... someone over there watching events unfold under the same guise as Mac?
It is my belief, Mac, and two others staying in the same profession world over are actually the origins of the Graces upon the swords. It's why Mac knows 3 are coming. few postulations. The other guy is in Egypt, we know one lineage of KotC was recently from Egypt, Mac stayed in the same town as the current wielder of Love when he set up shop, the Egyptian was holder of Hope directly before Sanya.
Now for an indecipherable tangent:Mac and the 3 are the in direct correlations to 5 version of himself, the other two ending up Uriel the young and the Lucifer the trapped. Him being the most recent incarnation not of Merlin, but having followed that bit of his path/shadow in the repeating history of the gyre.

[groinkick]

This is a reasonable argument but for one thing: Magic.  With things like fairies and oracle spirits and creepy Loa dolls there are a lot of ways that supernatural forces could confirm it was the work of non-supernatural forces. 

How though?  The Red Court used non-supernatural forces to kill wizards.  How could they tell if the mortal forces were hired by the government, or by someone from the White Court?  Mab, and Titania couldn't even figure out who killed the Summer Knight, and stole his Mantle.  I'd bet Harry would find it much easier to figure out a person who murdered with magic than to try and figure out if Marcone put a hit on someone, and used guns.  Neither Eb, or Thomas figured out who gunned down Harry, which you think they would both have been trying to figure it out.  Lord Raith is notorious for killing off members of the White Court, yet he hasn't been figured out.  Sure they probably suspect, or even know he did it.  But they cannot prove it, and that's what's important to them. 


Also would they care who killed one of their members enough to investigate it?  The Red Court for example did not care that Harry killed one of their members.  The excuse for war was that he broke the rules of hospitality, not that he actually killed her.  Also to investigate say using the fairies means deal making, and a cost.  Would any of the White Court care enough to invest anything into figuring out who killed Lara?  I doubt it.  The supernatural community seems more concerned about power.  If Lara got gunned down, the families would be more concerned about grabbing power than to figure out who did it.

But lets say they investigated...  Chances are they get a look at the vehicle, some mortals with guns, and an untraceable licence plate..  That could easily be a White Court operation.  No trail left back to them.  Especially since like I said before, Lord Raith made it a habit to kill people in his family.  Didn't one of them even get thrown out of an airplane?

[Quantus]

How though?  The Red Court used non-supernatural forces to kill wizards.  How could they tell if the mortal forces were hired by the government, or by someone from the White Court?  Mab, and Titania couldn't even figure out who killed the Summer Knight, and stole his Mantle.  I'd bet Harry would find it much easier to figure out a person who murdered with magic than to try and figure out if Marcone put a hit on someone, and used guns.  Neither Eb, or Thomas figured out who gunned down Harry, which you think they would both have been trying to figure it out.

My next sentence was important:  "Assuming of course that said Non-supernatural forces are ignorant of the sorts of Supernatural steps you'd need to take to cover your tracks."  All those supernatural forces you mentioned either had means to hide what what happening (one fairy Queen actively hiding things from the rest) or didnt ever bother to hide the connection (the Mortal forces everyone knew the Reds were using). Or they were Kincaid, who has been doing this long enough to know how to hide every possible track. 

But also, and more importantly, I think you are dramatically underestimating the ways that Magic can simply bypass all the normal investigative paths you'd try to hide/block.   Remember that at the cost of some booze and tobacco Harry, a random mid-level Wizard, was able to whistle up a being that exists simultaneously in the past and future and was able to give him Truths and Secrets that actual, literal Angels had been trying to hide and/or failed to deliver.  And that wasnt even tapping into his mysterious "Green Notebook" of extra scary NN information brokers.

[groinkick]

My next sentence was important:  "Assuming of course that said Non-supernatural forces are ignorant of the sorts of Supernatural steps you'd need to take to cover your tracks."  All those supernatural forces you mentioned either had means to hide what what happening (one fairy Queen actively hiding things from the rest) or didnt ever bother to hide the connection (the Mortal forces everyone knew the Reds were using). Or they were Kincaid, who has been doing this long enough to know how to hide every possible track. 

But also, and more importantly, I think you are dramatically underestimating the ways that Magic can simply bypass all the normal investigative paths you'd try to hide/block.   Remember that at the cost of some booze and tobacco Harry, a random mid-level Wizard, was able to whistle up a being that exists simultaneously in the past and future and was able to give him Truths and Secrets that actual, literal Angels had been trying to hide and/or failed to deliver.  And that wasnt even tapping into his mysterious "Green Notebook" of extra scary NN information brokers.

I don't agree.  All kinds of people go around murdering other people.  The White Council couldn't even figure out if Harry had committed murder, or acted in self defense.  Harry didn't do anything to hide what he did.  If they could have looked, they didn't even bother which goes to my point that nobody would even bother to investigate the murder of someone like Lara, or Lord Raith.

Also who did Harry need only tobacco and booze for?  Was it Chauncy?  If so the cost was a hell of a lot more, he gave up one of his Names.  That's a big cost that I doubt others would be willing to pay.

[Quantus]

Harry didn't just have tobacco, and booze.  He had Toot's Name, and used it to influence him.  No White Court vamp has the ability to do that.

Actually, he used a summoning ritual that was published no less, in "Dumont's Guide to Divinationators".  This was the Loa spirit he summoned in GP which told him what the Fallen had prevented Angels of Heaven from telling the KotC.  To be fair the Booze and Tobacco was the price to get her to show up, her price to give actual Answers was ""An honest answer to one question. Answer me and I will tell you what you seek." (GP ch. .  And that is the crux of my point: with the magical ecosystem of TDF, ALL information is available, the only question is whether you are willing to Pay more to find it out than others are willing to Pay to keep it hidden.  There is literally nothing else standing in their way, not even Time itself, and possibly not even Death. 

Toot, fwiw, always either got summoned with the historic fairy standard of milk and bread and honey, or else the more modern (and far superior) Pizza & truename.



PS.  All these years and I just noticed the use of the word "Divinationators" and it's my new favorite fantasy term.   

[groinkick]

Actually, he used a summoning ritual that was published no less, in "Dumont's Guide to Divinationators".  This was the Loa spirit he summoned in GP which told him what the Fallen had prevented Angels of Heaven from telling the KotC.  To be fair the Booze and Tobacco was the price to get her to show up, her price to give actual Answers was ""An honest answer to one question. Answer me and I will tell you what you seek." (GP ch. .  And that is the crux of my point: with the magical ecosystem of TDF, ALL information is available, the only question is whether you are willing to Pay more to find it out than others are willing to Pay to keep it hidden.  There is literally nothing else standing in their way, not even Time itself, and possibly not even Death. 

Toot, fwiw, always either got summoned with the historic fairy standard of milk and bread and honey, or else the more modern (and far superior) Pizza & truename.



PS.  All these years and I just noticed the use of the word "Divinationators" and it's my new favorite fantasy term.   

lol.  Here is how i look at it, and maybe I'm wrong.  If a homeless man was shot in some part of the country, and you got the FBI, CIA, NSA, and everyone working together, you will almost certainly catch who did it.  If you throw enough money, manpower, and effort you can figure out just about anything.  But are those players going to get involved to solve a crime like that?  No.  That's how I see this.  Yes if someone was determined to find out who killed Lord Raith, or Lara, and were willing to pay whatever the cost, they will get the answer.  But I just don't see anyone caring enough.  If anything they would be glad it happened, and consider it good fortune.  Creatures on the Earthly plane just don't care enough about their brethren to find out something like that.  Lara and Thomas are actually fond of each other, probably more affection there than any of the others feel for one another.  But would Lara pay a big price to find out who gunned down Thomas?  I don't think she would.