Thanks for posting. I just listened to the Dragoncon interview with Jim which came out a couple of days ago. I'd post a link but you can find it on YouTube if you like. I didn't find it very interesting and IMO the interviewer talked too much. This interview is much better.Agreed. Not much new stuff in that one.
3. Vadderung is seriously badass. And maybe not all that good. Jim's hinted that Vadderung might be a bit sinister quite a bit, literary device wise. Ferrovax is bad too and seriously hates Vadderung.I mean permanently sticking your neck out to help humans at least partially qualifies you as good, he's just real easy to turn into an antagonist if needed (even without the toe stomping in the darkhallow version of things). Though I do like it absolutely confirming my "Vadderung was lying his ass off in the office to move Harry into place" theory.
7. The diamond number is wrong. Jim needs the number to be about 2 million so Harry isn't too rich. Let's all pretend Harry's diamonds are actually poor quality or something or he lost a few.Yep, they would need to be shitty quality diamonds sold only to random pawn shops in Chicago to convert twenty pounds of diamonds into two million dollars.
8. The Wizards looking down on magic foci doesn't add up. LtW uses a medicine bag and Langtry had a wand as well as a staff.Also Ebenezar has his coat and the ring at an absolute minimum.
10. If Einherjar are revenants made with soulfire, that almost certainly rules out the Black Court Vampires. It does however point to the white court. However, in Jim's previous indication we have seen the combination of necromancy and soulfire - I suspect he was referring exclusively to the Einherjaren.And now I wish I could look back on the Barnes and Noble one's wording rather than the quick notes.
Ok so thoughts...Not too different from corpstaker in Harry’s body. Bodies are kind of real estate in this world.
-only one Uriel makes him giving Michael his grace a huge deal imo. If there's only one of him then he was confined to a very small series of timelines for awhile there.
-interesting he put Zeus near the same level of existence as Uriel there.
- if royalty ties into the swords, then perhaps that's part of why Michael seems to have a touch of sainthood going on magically speaking. Besides some of his combat actions like I'm GP the scene where he slammed the door when Molly and Charity were arguing stands out. Almost like he had authority there in his house.
- Bonnie in Harry's body? That gives frightening implications to me about how things become inhuman beings while looking human..
- the Drakul bits.. make me wonder if they weren't frankenstein and his monster? Drakul made him to have a few servants and he went and made a Court to try to impress him. Also makes me wonder if this hints at Kincaid's origins. Another creation of Drakul?Not if he can not make it in the first place but he can probably make it more real.
- Chandler seems more and more likely to be the british guy. What if he went back in time with that void out and was eventually snatched up for being outside of his time?
- Harry can make a body with soul fire?
- Justine in Cold Days got to the Island (Demonreach) without even Demonreach knowing. Nemesis cannot be detected unless you already know it is there.I hope this is misreported. This effectively would mean that the Gatekeeper is useless as well as self deluded, since his stated purpose is to do what Jim now says you can't do.
I hope this is misreported. This effectively would mean that the Gatekeeper is useless as well as self deluded, since his stated purpose is to do what Jim now says you can't do.
The hounds were 13 IIRC, so 13 seems like a good number for Nemesis. A number that can be easy to manage in plot terms.Well that's true but I assumed that was more to do with the summoner rather than the being. It's just that this is at odds with what Jim says in the interview (as unreliable as that sometimes is) about how Nemesis doesn't play by the normal rules of magic being an Outsider. Also, Sharkface split itself into 20 beings at one point. Perhaps all of the Walkers can?
I mean permanently sticking your neck out to help humans at least partially qualifies you as good, he's just real easy to turn into an antagonist if needed (even without the toe stomping in the darkhallow version of things). Though I do like it absolutely confirming my "Vadderung was lying his ass off in the office to move Harry into place" theory.1. I will have to look up that theory, but it sounds very intriguing! Changes that whole conversation...
Yep, they would need to be shitty quality diamonds sold only to random pawn shops in Chicago to convert twenty pounds of diamonds into two million dollars.
Also Ebenezar has his coat and the ring at an absolute minimum.
And now I wish I could look back on the Barnes and Noble one's wording rather than the quick notes.
So who was Bob's parents?Agreed. Still thinking Mab and someone...Merlin maybe? But almost certainly Mab and a human.
My bet is one of them's Mab.
The Fae's sponsor is Hekate.
Vadderung having Soulfire is awesome.
Ok so thoughts...1. I thought that to. Perhaps he only loaded the part of his Grace that was in Harry's universe at the time. Otherwise the risk seems excessive. Plus he would have been effectively blind (at his level). Creates a huge opportunity for Lucifer or other enemies. Jim also seemed a bit sketchy on this as well. At first he seemed to say that Uriel wasn't overarching, and then he back pedalled and said just one Uriel for the multiverse. If it's like Amber then Uriel could rather easily switch between universes without necessarily being an umbrella over all of them. Perhaps even he can only be in so many universes...many but not all. He isn't TWG after all. In saying that, Jim said Uriel has to deal with multiple alternate Harry's.
-only one Uriel makes him giving Michael his grace a huge deal imo. If there's only one of him then he was confined to a very small series of timelines for awhile there.
-interesting he put Zeus near the same level of existence as Uriel there.
- if royalty ties into the swords, then perhaps that's part of why Michael seems to have a touch of sainthood going on magically speaking. Besides some of his combat actions like I'm GP the scene where he slammed the door when Molly and Charity were arguing stands out. Almost like he had authority there in his house.
- Bonnie in Harry's body? That gives frightening implications to me about how things become inhuman beings while looking human..
- the Drakul bits.. make me wonder if they weren't frankenstein and his monster? Drakul made him to have a few servants and he went and made a Court to try to impress him. Also makes me wonder if this hints at Kincaid's origins. Another creation of Drakul?
- Chandler seems more and more likely to be the british guy. What if he went back in time with that void out and was eventually snatched up for being outside of his time?
- Harry can make a body with soul fire?
I hope this is misreported. This effectively would mean that the Gatekeeper is useless as well as self deluded, since his stated purpose is to do what Jim now says you can't do.no... Just means his eye doesn't rely on magic .
Besides, I don't think he was thinking on the Gatekeeper itself.
And about Chandler...is it too horrible for me not to believing JB?
As he likes to remind people, Jim is a professional liar, so no.Jim also said in that interview part of the point of Battle Ground was clearing some characters out. Too many for him to keep track of.
That being said Chandler is a pretty minor character, so I don't find it that farfetched that Jim doesn't have a concrete idea of what happened to him, rather then just vague ideas.
It's just that the description of what happened (the black square) was so precise, I cannot imagine JB thinking that and not thinking what it means. Perhaps he is just trying to downplay what could be something important.Black circle actually, but I get your point. I mean, it could lead to anywhere. Some horrible part of the Nevernever. The Outside. Drakul's lair. Maybe Jim, like many authors, likes leaving his options open. More interesting for him.
Instead, for some reason, I believe that he is not sure about Thomas. There are many options and I can see him not being sure what to choose yet. Personally, I hope he is back soon because I love Harry & Thomas together. And I need to see him taking care of his child soon because of the family drama annoys me. That also means I want Harry and Lara rescuing the child soon.
Thomas is sadly being sidelined as Jim is bored/tired of him. Which is such a waste to me. He tried to say Harry just thought it was cool having a brother out of nowhere, rather than the massive sense of family he got by getting a brother. First Harry flipped out, then he felt relief he wasn't alone, and then a deep love. I get that Thomas serves a narrative purpose but Jim can change the character and grow him. He's the author after all. I think Jim just can't be bothered as he no longer finds the character interesting or useful, and he takes up space.Jim also said Thomas was his go to muscle thug, which Dresden doesn't really need anymore. He's his own muscle.
Doesn't mean he won't come back of course. Tbh I am surprised Jim didn't just kill him (which he may well do).First don't give him idea's Director Alex did that enough for one day.
And I need to see him taking care of his child soon because of the family drama annoys me. That also means I want Harry and Lara rescuing the child soon.Dina approves of a child? (;) I get that it's completely different for Thomas to have a child than for Harry).
He tried to say Harry just thought it was cool having a brother out of nowhere, rather than the massive sense of family he got by getting a brother.I think he meant that Harry quickly came to that conclusion about Thomas, but Maggie, it was much more traumatic because Harry feels he abandoned Maggie without ever having a choice in the matter.
Dina approves of a child? (;) I get that it's completely different for Thomas to have a child than for Harry).LOL! Yes, even when I prefer not children (because they complicate the plot) this one actually makes sense. And if Justine is saved it will be good for them.
Meh, I don't think it is needed for Thomas to level up, in fact, I would like if he does not. He and Lara are powerful muscle and that is all right.
Well, it was said by Jim that he hasn't evolved. So if we want to see him before the end of the series, he's going to have to.I thought that to be about character development.
Jim also said in that interview part of the point of Battle Ground was clearing some characters out. Too many for him to keep track of.
....
Doesn't mean he won't come back of course. Tbh I am surprised Jim didn't just kill him (which he may well do).
Which is odd, because most of the powerhouses - the immortals, the KotC, and the Senior Council members - were badly wounded but survived. Karrin and Hendricks are benched, but if Ragnarok is included in the BAT, presumably that's going to supersede 'until nobody alive remembers them'. Thomas is benched, but can be brought back when the time is right. The B team wardens are dead, but undead and presumably enemies now.Not having to do character moments for Murphy and Thomas for several books does give a bit more breathing room, though yeah, it is weird that the only heavyweight casualties are Gwyn and maybe Airavata.
This didn't really prune a lot of threads, it just put characters on the shelf for a while.
My point is, why is it a problem that he has not evolved? Michael has not evolved either. Or Father Forthill. They can still be good secondary characters, that help Harry's development. Not everything is about fighting.
Which is odd, because most of the powerhouses - the immortals, the KotC, and the Senior Council members - were badly wounded but survived. Karrin and Hendricks are benched, but if Ragnarok is included in the BAT, presumably that's going to supersede 'until nobody alive remembers them'. Thomas is benched, but can be brought back when the time is right. The B team wardens are dead, but undead and presumably enemies now.I think Jim was saying a lot of smaller characters died off screen.
This didn't really prune a lot of threads, it just put characters on the shelf for a while.
Not having to do character moments for Murphy and Thomas for several books does give a bit more breathing room, though yeah, it is weird that the only heavyweight casualties are Gwyn and maybe Airavata.I think I missed this reference (Airavata).
I think Jim was saying a lot of smaller characters died off screen.I say maybe Airavata because there was a distinct lack of a giant Naga tearing through the Fomor ranks in the big battle scene.
I think I missed this reference (Airavata).
Thomas could level up by studying magic. If he gets out before Justine returns, that could be motivation for him to up his magic game significantly. He might be the White Court equivalent of a wizard level talent who never put in the work.
Thomas could level up by studying magic. If he gets out before Justine returns, that could be motivation for him to up his magic game significantly. He might be the White Court equivalent of a wizard level talent who never put in the work.
Besides, as Thomas can still become the WK when Harry leaves, he really does not need to level up now.That's kind of an immediate bad end if he ever slips up and feeds on a fae.
Nah, his hunger will be killed or put to sleep by the time. Sort of Harry's back.
That's actually exactly what I was thinking about when I talked about Thomas evolving, leveling up. When he gets out, he won't have his demon anymore since it is going to kill him now. He will need another source to fight like he did. The WK mantle would be a suitable replacement.Except that doesn't change Thomas all that much, does it? He'd not have the demon, but a lot of what he did before would remain the same. No, if Thomas gets out of jail, he isn't going to be the same, instead I think he will become that rather ordinary mortal with glasses that Harry saw back in Blood Rites in the soul gaze. Why? Demon killed or removed, no more need to feed off of passions etc.. He will have had to have faced all the pain and suffering he caused all the years he has been alive. I think that latter will compel him to want to become very ordinary and try to redeem himself if he can.
That's kind of an immediate bad end if he ever slips up and feeds on a fae.I think it'd only be a problem if only fed on the fae. If he only did it once, it be like he skipped a meal. If he was otherwise well fed, I think he'd be fine.
I think it'd only be a problem if only fed on the fae. If he only did it once, it be like he skipped a meal. If he was otherwise well fed, I think he'd be fine.Oh being hungry would be the least of his problems. The real trouble starts when after feeding on a fae he goes back to Earth and gets hit with the mental version of dissolving fae food since he fed on "false" emotions.
Now if he only fed on the fae in Faerie for long enough, then returned to the mortal world, I think it would either put him in the situation we saw in PT or kill his hunger by a rapid starvation.
Nah, his hunger will be killed or put to sleep by the time. Sort of Harry's back.It wold be nice to see Thomas settle down with his wife and child somewhere away for death and violence.
Oh being hungry would be the least of his problems. The real trouble starts when after feeding on a fae he goes back to Earth and gets hit with the mental version of dissolving fae food since he fed on "false" emotions.Which seems to contradict The Who could hurt Mab woj from 2009:
The entire White Court–very, very long odds on that, but if they actually pulled it off, whoever took Mab would effectively control her power.
Which seems to contradict The Who could hurt Mab woj from 2009:
What did the woj say? I remember about eating fairy food and matter being matter from the spirit world and that might be a problem for a red court who eats blood but the white court eats power, spirit.
Priscellie: Jonathan McGee asks "what would Thomas look like if he took Mab's offer to be her backup knight? And can the white court feed off of fae the same way they do humans?"
Jim: Oh my god they can and it would be such a nightmare. Here's the thing about being in faerie. And remember that we're talking about "you are what you eat" that's sort of one of those lines that goes all the way through the Dresden Files universe. So when you're in fae the reason you don't accept food from faeries is because the food you're getting isn't actually food it's the stuff of the Nevernever. The material of the Nevernever is basically an augur you can form into whatever you want and so the fae have formed it into food but your body will still take it and take it in but when you leave faerie it turns back into ectoplasm it goes away on whatever level it was so if you've been in faerie for a month eating food you're gonna have a month's worth of your body just slough off because even though you ate the food and processed it and made it part of your body it was never actual material it was just the stuff of the Nevernever.
Priscellie: So in all that time when Harry was getting rehab.
Jim: They were bringing in mortal food for him to keep him whole because otherwise he would have been bound and been unable to leave. That's why you don't eat food when you're in fae sort of the same rule that goes around for other realities like that as well. That was the first part of the answer but now I've forgot the first part of the question.
Priscellie: So even if Molly were to shed her current mantle one assumes she has probably had enough fae food at this point that that's an issue.
Jim: Unless she has protected herself from it which she could have done because her mantle comes with a bunch of intellectus about how the rules work because she has to have to have that because she's in charge of it. But at the same time if Thomas did that he'd be devouring essentially false emotions in the same sort of way and so he when he went back and all that stuff peeled off and he ate nothing but faerie food that would just leave him bonkers insane until he got back. It would turn him into a /monster/ if that happened and Mab would be in favour of that because that would be to her advantage in many ways so she would be into that. Because that way she could essentially get a Winter Soldier out of it that way, she gets to send him out and essentially as soon as he he leaves he's empty and just her terminator killing machine and when he comes back she can fill him up with whatever she needs for the next mission *Priscellie winces*. I know, it's awful, I'm bent to be thinking of these sorts of thing.
Priscellie: *laughs* You're not a nice human being.
Jim: I'm not a nice human being but I'm channeling it in as healthy a way as I possibly can so...
Priscellie: We are your therapy.
Jim: Yeah exactly. Wow I feel so bad to say that but it's true.
Jim compares fairy food with fairy false emotions. I do not think that connection is necessary but if Jim thinks so....
I just wonder what that means.One might think you aren't taking this seriously.
Are Sidhe actually faking emotion the entire time, just really well, and so the fake emotions stop existing outside of the Nevernever?
Is it that emotions have physical mass, and so emotions fed on from the Nevernever are made up of Ectoplasm like all physical matter from the Nevernever?
Like, how does that work? How many grams do love/hate/fear/etc weigh?
SO MANY QUESTIONS!
Vadderung having Soulfire is awesome.
That would seem to imply that the Einherjar are horrible vulnerabilities that could be used against Vadderung if any were captured by the right adversary to use against him.You'd think that mixing the bits of the soul up with magic and letting it sit for a few months would be enough to dilute it.
Previous WOJ was that Harry using soulfire to enchant his gear would be a liability if any of it was taken from him, because pieces of the soul are at least as bad as samples of blood or hair.
Jim also said in that interview part of the point of Battle Ground was clearing some characters out. Too many for him to keep track of.
Which is odd, because most of the powerhouses - the immortals, the KotC, and the Senior Council members - were badly wounded but survived. Karrin and Hendricks are benched, but if Ragnarok is included in the BAT, presumably that's going to supersede 'until nobody alive remembers them'. Thomas is benched, but can be brought back when the time is right. The B team wardens are dead, but undead and presumably enemies now.
This didn't really prune a lot of threads, it just put characters on the shelf for a while.
One might think you aren't taking this seriously.
Are you telling me that you aren't interested in knowing which of lust/fear/despair has the higher fat content? On if the false emotions taken from a member of the Sidhe would be considered empty calories from a dieting perspective? On how Lara and the other Raiths maintain their figures with such a heavy diet?Healthy exercise.
No sir, I say you are the one who isn't taking this seriously.
Are you telling me that you aren't interested in knowing which of lust/fear/despair has the higher fat content? On if the false emotions taken from a member of the Sidhe would be considered empty calories from a dieting perspective? On how Lara and the other Raiths maintain their figures with such a heavy diet?
No sir, I say you are the one who isn't taking this seriously.
Keep in mind, Thomas was confined by Harry with a very interesting caveat. Thomas can't speak to anyone not confined by a similar protocol. The only person confined by a similar protocol is the "English guy." During confinement, Thomas will be without access to his demon for the first time since learning about it. We have no idea what Thomas can learn from the English guy, whether he can bring the English guy into the story line, or what having his demon restrained for a long period might allow Thomas to do. Giving his spirit a chance to rest, recover, and enter the fight against the hunger demon again from a new angle might significantly empower Thomas. A change of "taste" for his demon might very well be within the cards, or maybe he becomes more of an omnivore because the human with free will is driving the car more and he can feed off of whatever emotion is prevalent at the time, and lose the weakness of true love, etc.Yes, it is true that is important.
So feeding on Mab would give a huge sugar high with a disastrous let down... :-\I kinda assume Mab is still food, because she was human once.
I kinda assume Mab is still food, because she was human once.
Are you telling me that you aren't interested in knowing which of lust/fear/despair has the higher fat content? On if the false emotions taken from a member of the Sidhe would be considered empty calories from a dieting perspective? On how Lara and the other Raiths maintain their figures with such a heavy diet?Your right, I'm not. I think the Fae fritters are zero fat, zero, sugar and zero calories.
No sir, I say you are the one who isn't taking this seriously.
Your right, I'm not. I think the Fae fritters are zero fat, zero, sugar and zero calories.Because they don’t exclusively live on fae food and all have a bit of mortality in them. The party in Cold Days served mortal food.
On a more serious note if there can be one on this topic, why do Fae leave bodies if they are exclusively of the Nevernever.
Your right, I'm not. I think the Fae fritters are zero fat, zero, sugar and zero calories.
On a more serious note if there can be one on this topic, why do Fae leave bodies if they are exclusively of the Nevernever.
Lamar is alive, he is mentioned after the battle. And as Mac's was fine, I don't think Brock died.
And after the cliché comment, I think Rawlins survived.
Yes, it is true that is important.
I don't think I'd put too much stock in the marriage not lasting.
Mab caused this marriage as a way of paying off a debt. I expect she will make them keep the legal status even if Harry and Lara live entirely separate lives. As long as Harry and Lara avoid giving mortal insult to each other's courts and keep their side romances out of the tabloids, she'll be down with it.
Lara wanted the alliance even before the Peace Talks. She won't torpedo the marriage without said provocation.
Poor Harry is oathbound to go through with it but doesn't have to obey Lara's desires any more than she has to obey his. Those should be some very interesting and well lawyered wedding vows on both sides though I expect Harry to get the worst of it because it'll add future drama.
I've thought the same thing, but then I remember that all the Einherjar will permanently die with Odin at Ragnarok, so even if Jim brings them back, it won't be for long.
Nah, as I said, the marriage won't last because nothing last for Harry. But to cover the alliance, Thomas becomes the WK. That puts a Raith in service to Mab, tying the WiC and WhC together through Thomas. The marriage is one of Mab's ways to pay off the debt, but not the only way.
This is if they even make it down the aisle to get married, which even that may not happen.
And I can't see it not happening.
I don't think Jim is going to give us the cure for Thomas and Harry's ascension to a new mantle in the course of the next book, especially one that wasn't part of the original plan.
Plus for anyone to become the Winter Knight, they'd either have to kill Harry or come up with some new way of passing mantles that's not Halloween because we know that Harry still has the mantle at Christmas. I can't see Harry getting another powerup before the BAT begins and maybe not until the second book of that even.
And Mab wants Harry as Winter Knight because he's her chosen weapon and he understands the duty his power and her entails since his experience with the mantle. Harry may rail against it but this wedding isn't a big enough issue to break with Mab over or he'd have done it at the end of BG.
But Mab did give Harry a year to make things different, so all he has to do is come up with something that gives a stronger tie between the courts publicly and privately than a joining of bloodlines entails and that Mab and Lara will go along with.
There wouldn't be a need to expend a favor. Harry is already her employee.He is her vassal and his rights and obligations are not that clear in detail to us. There might be things she simply can not order without spending that favor.
He is her vassal and his rights and obligations are not that clear in detail to us. There might be things she simply can not order without spending that favor.Not that getting rid of that favour would matter too much except in the sense that being rid of it would make it easier to slip out of being WK without Mab having either easy revenge or one last giant mess to chuck him into.
He is her vassal and his rights and obligations are not that clear in detail to us. There might be things she simply can not order without spending that favor.you said it better than I, he's her vassal, indentured servant. He can't really refuse unless it's part of the terms and conditions, which is no hurting people he cares about... there might be others true, but he's still under her orders.
By the end of Twelve Months, Harry could very well be pulled into the MM dimension just before the wedding. We also have Molly doing the party planning, meaning she will probably do what she can do get Harry out of it. So while it is possible that the marriage will happen, it also may not. And even if it does happen, it doesn't mean that they will stay married.
As for a power up for Harry, there is still plenty of time for it. Harry seems to stumble into a variety of things he doesn't mean to get into. The wrestling book would be a very good possible point for that to happen. He could very well lose the mantle in MMand pick up something new in the power plays of the wrestling book.
Oh, jeez. Just thought of this. Jim said that Harry will be MM Mab's WK just as much as he is Mab's. But I wonder, if Harry does MM Mab a favor, will it count towards the remaining favor owed to Mab?
If TM ends before the wedding with the MM twist then the end of MM will have to resolve it or drag it out in another book. If it ends after the wedding then Harry will still be married after his return from MM. Changes was a cliffhanger ending. But GS resolved it at the end because we only needed to see what happened to Harry. For MM to affect the wedding we'd have to follow what occurs in both universes through both Harry's and mirror Harry's POV's. So that would make it two books in one. Not saying Jim won't do it but it would be a big departure from the format we've grown used to.
Not that getting rid of that favour would matter too much except in the sense that being rid of it would make it easier to slip out of being WK without Mab having either easy revenge or one last giant mess to chuck him into.If Jim remembers the deal Harry made in SK, using the favor should release Harry from being Mab's knight. Remember, context doesn't matter for faerie deals.
"Three tasks," Mab murmured, holding up three fingers by way of visual aid. "From time to time, I will make a request of you. When you have fulfilled three requests, your obligation to me ceases."
The previous deal is has been superseded. ...Disagree with the first; agree with the second.
Mab no longer needs to make requests of Harry.
Disagree with the first; agree with the second.Yes, but remember what Harry did in BG. He bounded Molly because he said that he has done more than what his office demanded him. Harry did not realize it yet but one day he will do Mab a favor (without being ordered to) so important, that she will have to awknowledge it. And at that point, the deal will be finished and Harry's will be free of fae influence.
Mab said that he would be free of any faerie influence.Harry could have ask for that third favor when negotiating in Changes but he did not. I don’t think rejected offers from previous negotiations necessarily count in the last negotiation.
Mab said that he would be free of any faerie influence.
That was before he became the Winter Knight by an entirely new deal.
Being the Winter Knight isn't paying off the old debt, he swore himself to lifetime service in exchange for power.
And yet, what Dina said is true. Mab said that when three favors are fulfilled, he will be free of faerie influence. That was at their first meeting in Harry's office. When on the battlefield in SK, Mab offered the deal of being the WKnight and erasing all favors owed. When he didn't take the deal, it was taken off the table.
Yes, Mab doesn't have to ask for favors anymore with Harry being her Knight. But, if say he unknowingly does her a favor, it would free him of any faerie influence, as she said back in SK, and the WKnight mantle is a faerie influence. So her rule was set first, and her being fae and the Queen, it should supersede Harry's vow.
And yet, what Dina said is true. Mab said that when three favors are fulfilled, he will be free of faerie influence. That was at their first meeting in Harry's office. When on the battlefield in SK, Mab offered the deal of being the WKnight and erasing all favors owed. When he didn't take the deal, it was taken off the table.
Yes, Mab doesn't have to ask for favors anymore with Harry being her Knight. But, if say he unknowingly does her a favor, it would free him of any faerie influence, as she said back in SK, and the WKnight mantle is a faerie influence. So her rule was set first, and her being fae and the Queen, it should supersede Harry's vow.
But faeries are different, their deals are stricter and by the letter.Sure but what letters? If anything is open for interpretation Mab will abuse it.
Yes, but remember what Harry did in BG. He bounded Molly because he said that he has done more than what his office demanded him. Harry did not realize it yet but one day he will do Mab a favor (without being ordered to) so important, that she will have to awknowledge it. And at that point, the deal will be finished and Harry's will be free of fae influence.The deal wasn't for Harry to do Mab three favors. It was for him to fulfill three requests. If Jim is paying attention to what he said in SK, an order is not a request and neither is an unrequested favor.
The deal that started with a debt to Lea may well be finished that way but his oath as Winter Knight isn't part of that deal.
When you have fulfilled three requests, your obligation to me ceases.Obligation is only defined by context. We've been warned that context doesn't matter when dealing with the Sidhe. I'm not saying that it will go down this way. I'm saying that if Mab makes a request of Harry, then by the rules laid out in the books, his obligation to Mab ceases. Whatever obligation Harry has to her.
Any future Bargains would be on their own terms. Like, if someone owes you $20 and you say "You pay for lunch next time and we're square", and then they borrow another $5000 for a car lone 6 years down the track, they can't just finally buy you that Pizza and be like "So, we're good on that 5k right?"There's a reason contracts say that they supersede any previous agreements. Also, Jim has said that Harry still owes Mab the last request. The deal is still valid. The question isn't if the deal is still in place. It is what does "obligation to Mab" mean. Being Winter Knight is all about obligations to Mab. (Also the other two Queens).
The deal wasn't for Harry to do Mab three favors. It was for him to fulfill three requests. If Jim is paying attention to what he said in SK, an order is not a request and neither is an unrequested favor.Really? I thought it said "favors".
The wedding may not happen - In TM we will follow Harry over the year, seeing his dates with Lara, but if they really make it down the aisle sounds like it's up in the air.I really felt like this was just an "I'm not going to tell you" type of answer. He seems to have retired the sing song phrase. I think Jim knows the answers to these questions, but they would be pretty major spoilers. Of course he isn't going to answer them.
And, because I do like the Harry/Molly pairing, I'm putting this in. Someone asked about a relationship between Harry and Molly. Jim sounded like he wants people to realize that it very well may happen, just right now isn't a good thing or time for it to happen.
Anybody catch Mike's book review interview? I watched that and I caught a couple thoughts that I found interesting. I start off by throwing this out there.It's easier to remember she's awful when you're also keeping track of what's going on in her head and what she's doing offscreen after all.
Jim thinks of Mab as a villain - Sounds like he doesn't share the same ideas about her that some readers do that she's really a good guy doing bad things to keep reality safe.
The wedding may not happen - In TM we will follow Harry over the year, seeing his dates with Lara, but if they really make it down the aisle sounds like it's up in the air.
And, because I do like the Harry/Molly pairing, I'm putting this in. Someone asked about a relationship between Harry and Molly. Jim sounded like he wants people to realize that it very well may happen, just right now isn't a good thing or time for it to happen.
She said "When you have fulfilled three requests, your obligation to me ceases."
Wasn't that before he became her Knight through?Yeah. So?
Yeah. So?
She doesn't have to make a request of it though.
She could simply say, "My Knight, your next task shall be a simple one. Retrieve the Blackstaff and give it to me now that it is no longer in the possession of one of your loved ones."
I don't think so. She cannot ask Harry to give her anything in Demonreach, or at least that is what I understood. Mab can task her knight but cannot rob him.
Harry can take anything he chooses from Demonreach and free any prisoner. He is the Warden with a capital D.We don't know that. Harry has an official function at the winter court and is Mab's vassal. I am sure the rules are skewed in Mab's favor but there are rules and they both have to follow them. That is why she brought Harry's daughter a christmas present after all.
His only conditions on becoming Winter Knight was for the power he received, time to rescue Maggie before taking up his duties and never to be forced to raise a hand against his loved ones. Anything else Mab asks of him falls within his duties.
I don't think so. She cannot ask Harry to give her anything in Demonreach, or at least that is what I understood. Mab can task her knight but cannot rob him.
"Demonreach," I said. "If our guest pulls the trigger, take her below and keep her there."
The guardian spirit's vast shadow fell over us even though there was nothing casting it, and Mab's eyes widened.
"Servant," I said. "I don't like that word. I suggest that you consider where you stand and chose a different term.
@vincentric I did not understand the capital D ???
Yes, Harry can do anything as the Warden but my point was that Mab cannot order him to do anything related with the Warden status, no matter if he is her Knight. And he was the Warden before being the WK, previous obligations top his new ones. So, if Harry on his own volition takes the blackstaff from his grandpa and put it in Demonreach, Mab cannot touch it. She cannot order him to retrieve the blackstaff but she could offer a deal...or make it a request.
Anything Demonreach has locked up, Harry can set free. This is from the word of Demonreach itself. And the armory is just as subject to Harry's control. There is no effect on his Warden status unless she tries to force him. Harry can refuse her order but there are ... consequences to this that Harry currently does not have the power to evade or avert. He'd have to go back to isolation on the island.
QuoteHarry could lock her up, but he'd have to be able to bind her first though, which wouldn't be an easy thing.
"Demonreach," I said. "If our guest pulls the trigger, take her below and keep her there."
The guardian spirit's vast shadow fell over us even though there was nothing casting it, and Mab's eyes widened.
"Servant," I said. "I don't like that word. I suggest that you consider where you stand and chose a different term.
It's an interesting question. She made Harry stab himself in the hand in Summer Knight and rewrote his software in Small Favor. And she was in the Well when Harry's soul was out gallivanting. So a better question might be, why would she?Demonreach makes Harry an even more powerful and effective winter knight and also a more effective warden. Mab and the island came to an understanding about Harry, probably some sort of agreement and I don’t think Mab will mess that up, it won’t serve her purpose. Her words to Lara clearly shows that she thinks Harry’s responsibilities are not a problem for her.
If Merlin built the Well and traveled in time, barring idiocy on his part, Merlin would have thought about this and made provisions. Don't you think?
It's an interesting question. She made Harry stab himself in the hand in Summer Knight and rewrote his software in Small Favor. And she was in the Well when Harry's soul was out gallivanting. So a better question might be, why would she?
If Merlin built the Well and traveled in time, barring idiocy on his part, Merlin would have thought about this and made provisions. Don't you think?
Demonreach makes Harry an even more powerful and effective winter knight and also a more effective warden. Mab and the island came to an understanding about Harry, probably some sort of agreement and I don’t think Mab will mess that up, it won’t serve her purpose. Her words to Lara clearly shows that she thinks Harry’s responsibilities are not a problem for her.Yes, and she also understands that Harry was able to jail a Titian and he is in possession of the Spear of Destiny. Yes, elsewhere she can exert a lot of pressure on him, but on the island? He has the last say, and she also knows that. However that won't stop her from trying, and let us not forget she understands the subtleties of power and how to both exert it and withstand it. It was that subtlety that enabled her to withstand the blunt of the Eye of Baylor, much of her power is indeed psychological.
Mab clearly understands the islands importance and in the past helped Harry to fulfill his obligations as the warden.
I don't believe Mab can force Harry to do anything. He has his free will. She just has the right to command him as her Knight. If Harry defies a command though, he'd be forced to the island to escape the consequences.That is a definition of forcing somebody to do something that is based on Uriel’s definition of free will. The problem with that definition is that it becomes impossible for anyone to force anyone else to do something and so the word becomes meaningless and that it does not match the real world interpretation of the meaning of forcing someone to do something.
Mab doesn't want to give Harry a command that will cause his defiance though. He is the best Knight she has had in sometime and potentially one of the greatest ever. And she sees a kindred spirit in him. That won't stop her from punishing him horribly if he openly defies her, but I'm fairly sure only he gets private talks where he can ask the why of her orders.
Perhaps he would, but when he is on the island, he has the power, not her. Harry could lock her up, but he'd have to be able to bind her first though, which wouldn't be an easy thing.I don't think he would have to bind her, at least not ritually like he did Ethniu. That scene implies DR could do so retroactively even with the warden dead. No real binding to speak of there.. I think it wouldn't be as effective though. The Warden, the one with the free will, is like the fulcrum of the lever when weighing DR against another. Without the leverage DR would have to use brute force so to speak. His metaphysical mass might be greater, but all the 'muscle' in the world doesn't help you if you can't apply proper leverage.
That is a definition of forcing somebody to do something that is based on Uriel’s definition of free will. The problem with that definition is that it becomes impossible for anyone to force anyone else to do something and so the word becomes meaningless and that it does not match the real world interpretation of the meaning of forcing someone to do something.
That's true in real life also. You can always defy someone trying to coerce you. The question is, are you willing to accept the consequences that they may inflict on you and remain resolute? It may not be realistic in extreme cases but defiance is always an option even if it's an unpalatable one.But that is not the point. The concepts are real but the meaning of the word is shifted. You now have two groups of people who speak a slightly different language but are most probably not aware of it. It can lead to misunderstandings. It is also a way to influence your thinking. Or it can be an effort to change society.
Fae's cannot cross certain boundaries, for example telling a lie. They have some wiggle room so they can workaround their limitations, but that's not free will, they're very strict on tit for tat rules, duties, boundaries, and relationship protocols such as hospitality, keeping promises & anything related to balance.I agree
So the question is: what about the Queen telling her knight to betray his other mantle rights & duties if she desires, such as giving her Blackstaff that Warden of Demonreach has confiscated? I think not, Harry being a WK is separate from Warden thus it's not possible to get him to betray his Warden's right from Fae perspective. She could offer him something for it, but command him: no.
I agreeIt is all about duties and obligations. Mab never prevented Harry from meeting his obligations. She even made sure that Toot’s pizza was delivered because those things are important.
It is all about duties and obligations. Mab never prevented Harry from meeting his obligations. She even made sure that Toot’s pizza was delivered because those things are important.
Harry has obligations to the island just like he has obligations to Toot. Harry had obligations to the white council but they threw them away. I think Mab would call that stupid but she won’t complain.
I think that demonreach is a prison, not an armory. So while it is a really convenient place to stash weapons etc. keeping stuff on the island is not the focus of the wardens duty. As a result I do not think it would be against his warden duties to retrieve an object for Mab in general.
Just when he thought he paid her in full, she moved the goal posts again to keep him on the hook so eventually he'd agree to be her Knight.He never paid her in full. She never moved the goal posts.
So since he did agree, you haven't heard her mention the favors that he owes her, do you?Again, so? Why would she remind him? So that he can put her in a position where she has to make a request? To foreshadow to readers that Harry is going to get out of being the Knight and how?
When Mab wanted Harry’s debt to Lea she did not just seize it or commanded her to hand it over, she made a deal. I do not think Mab can just walk into the castle and ask for the furniture. It probably would not even occur to her.
She said she "purchased" his obligations to Lea. Then Harry struck a bargain with Mab to do three favors. And yes, she does move the goal posts, whenever she has appeared and asked something of Harry, he thinks he is holding up his end of the bargain. For the first two it works, but he never canMab did nothing like that. She was very straightforward. She just waited and Harry needed Mab before Mab needed Harry a third time. Why would she waste a favor just to get Harry of the hook?
quite finish off the last one, Mab keeps opening loop holes to keep him on the hook until eventually he becomes her Knight.
Yes she had all the cards but she was not moving goalposts. She was just making deals.
That depends on point of view, doesn't it? So from Harry's stand point, she was moving the goal posts, from her point of view, merely making deals.How was she moving goal posts? Harry could have waited for her to ask the last favor and go for a darkhallow or Lasciel. He did not and that was a different deal nothing to do with the previous ones. The only one who played dirty was Harry with his suicide.
That depends on point of view, doesn't it? So from Harry's stand point, she was moving the goal posts, from her point of view, merely making deals.
She said she "purchased" his obligations to Lea. Then Harry struck a bargain with Mab to do three favors. And yes, she does move the goal posts, whenever she has appeared and asked something of Harry, he thinks he is holding up his end of the bargain. For the first two it works, but he never canHe pays number two in Small Favor. He next sees her when he breaks his back in Changes. She must be using magic to move those posts.
quite finish off the last one, Mab keeps opening loop holes to keep him on the hook until eventually he becomes her Knight.