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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: MoroccoMole on September 10, 2023, 05:21:44 AM
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Does Harry still have the perfect recall that Lash gave him to be able to create the DarkHallow? Since she's been gone, does he still have that capability?
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He understood the principles and found it simple, he therefore doesn’t need perfect recall.
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The real question is Does Bonea have it? We know that Evil Bob does as that was the thing that caused his creation.
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Simple answer, yes Lash was in Harry when he read the Word, and all memories lash and Harry were passed to Bonea.
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Does Harry still have the perfect recall that Lash gave him to be able to create the DarkHallow? Since she's been gone, does he still have that capability?
WoJ is that, until very-late in the series, he wasn't in fact clear whether Harry was going to power-up (to save Maggie from the Reds) via Darkhallow, via Denarian Coin, or by becoming the Winter Knight.
Jim himself therefore thinks it plausible that Harry still knows either of those Lash-given bits of info... But Jim hasn't actually written (it that way, or any other way)! Because WoJ is also that he has -- across drafts &c -- written and re-written so many features so many times, that he sometimes doesn't remember which version actually became "canon."
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Simple answer, yes Lash was in Harry when he read the Word, and all memories lash and Harry were passed to Bonea.
Has WoJ ever established that Bonea knows everything Lash knew?
I have always presumed that the stress of the psychic assault had actually destroyed some info.
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A spirit of intellect knows everything the parents did, the problem though is rationally accessing that knowledge and applying it to the real world. Pancakes are the obvious example.
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A spirit of intellect knows everything the parents did...
I understand your assertion.
I just don't recall any WoJ saying this unambiguously.
As a presumption... it seems to me that it's actually highly-unikely that the violence of an outsider-fueled psychic assault (sufficient to destroy the work of an Angel, albeit a fallen one) allowed 100% of the knowledge to transfer (q.v. "destroy the work of an Angel," i.e. the knowledge-transfer).
Maybe you're correct; but AFAIK, this premise is just another fannish WAG.
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WoJ is that, until very-late in the series, he wasn't in fact clear whether Harry was going to power-up (to save Maggie from the Reds) via Darkhallow, via Denarian Coin, or by becoming the Winter Knight.
Jim himself therefore thinks it plausible that Harry still knows either of those Lash-given bits of info... But Jim hasn't actually written (it that way, or any other way)! Because WoJ is also that he has -- across drafts &c -- written and re-written so many features so many times, that he sometimes doesn't remember which version actually became "canon."
In Changes I believe Harry goes over his options, Darkhallow is one of the things he mentions as an option, so one can assume he still knows how to do it... On the other hand he also mentions calling up Lasciel's coin and I don't think he still had access to it at that point.
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... On the other hand he also mentions calling up Lasciel's coin and I don't think he still had access to it at that point.
The case could be argued either way.
Lash (and Lasciel's Shadow) clearly knew how to do it... and Lash "left behind" a musical gift; that could have been Jim foreshadowing of other things Harry "inherited" (or, not).
Harry certainly *claimed* (to Mab) that he had the Denarian option available, and earlier we know (from the Cold Days flashback) that neither he nor Molly thought he had the poker face to bluff Mab. So I'm inclined to think he still knew how to summon the Blackened Denarius.
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The case could be argued either way.
Lash (and Lasciel's Shadow) clearly knew how to do it... and Lash "left behind" a musical gift; that could have been Jim foreshadowing of other things Harry "inherited" (or, not).
Harry certainly *claimed* (to Mab) that he had the Denarian option available, and earlier we know (from the Cold Days flashback) that neither he nor Molly thought he had the poker face to bluff Mab. So I'm inclined to think he still knew how to summon the Blackened Denarius.
The problem I have with that is why then did Lasciel seek revenge by influencing Harry to kill himself rather than convince him that the coin was the answer? I think he either couldn't or his rejection of the coin was so complete, that even if he could it was a bluff. Mab would know he wasn't serious about either summoning a coin or calling up the Darkhallow.
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The problem I have with that is why then did Lasciel seek revenge by influencing Harry to kill himself rather than convince him that the coin was the answer?
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She already HAD a host that she liked, in Hannah Asher. Strong fire-sorceror (even stronger than Harry, at least with fire) more-easily manipulated & controlled.
Lasciel had already invested all the time she could afford to waste, with on Harry. One of the repeating cluebats (that the Dresdenverse is beating Harry with) is that there isn't much time left; even the millennia-long perspectives of the Fallen are being compressed and rushed. Lasciel cannot afford to be side-tracked from the bigger apocalyptic game with another long slow attempt at tempting Harry (likely-enough another failed attempt).
Last but not least, Lasciel said it herself: "Hell hath no fury like..."
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Harry didn't want to summon the Coin or perform a Darkhallow unless he had no option left. He went through his choices of powerups in what he considered the least evil option order. So, Uriel first, then Mab and we don't know what would have been next, though I suspect the Coin before the Darkhallow, because Mab stepped up.
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Harry didn't want to summon the Coin or perform a Darkhallow unless he had no option left. He went through his choices of powerups in what he considered the least evil option order. So, Uriel first, then Mab and we don't know what would have been next though I suspect the Coin before the Darkhallow because Mab stepped up.
Exactly
She already HAD a host that she liked, in Hannah Asher. Strong fire-sorceror (even stronger than Harry, at least with fire) more-easily manipulated & controlled.
We don't know that she had a Host at that point. If Hannah at that point was her host, would she have been free to torment Harry? I don't think Hannah without Lasciel's help would have been stronger in fire than Harry.. And in the end Harry applied a little fire himself to the rock ceiling, melted it enough to fall upon her head and bury her.
Lasciel had already invested all the time she could afford to waste, with on Harry. One of the repeating cluebats (that the Dresdenverse is beating Harry with) is that there isn't much time left; even the millennia-long perspectives of the Fallen are being compressed and rushed. Lasciel cannot afford to be side-tracked from the bigger apocalyptic game with another long slow attempt at tempting Harry (likely-enough another failed attempt).
Possible
Last but not least, Lasciel said it herself: "Hell hath no fury like..."
Yup..
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... We don't know that she had a Host at that point...
No, you're right. I was conflating another moment.
It's always possible that Hannah was lying, but she claimed (during the duel in Hades' vault) that (as of Changes) she was actually allied with the Order of St.Giles and "fighting the good fight." Part of what turned her to despair & picking up Lasciel's denarius was watching all her new friends and allies get destroyed by the Blood-Curse ritual.
... I don't think Hannah without Lasciel's help would have been stronger in fire than Harry ...
According to Harry, I think she was.
She was known to the Wardens as a dangerous, combat-heavy fire-mage.
Every warden who went after her would have been prepped accordingly.
But she took down multiple fire-prepped wardens with just fire-magic.
A big part of what makes Harry so dangerous is that he's got so many arrows in his quiver. Fire mage, air mage, force/telekinesis mage, potion-maker, vulcanomancy... necromancy! And serious sideline-talents with earth-magic, water-magic (per WoJ, I don't think we've seen it in the books). Savvy-enough and strong-enough to disrupt the workings of Entropy-mages.
Hannah Ascher is a MUCH less robust target than Harry Dresden!
And yet -- just with fire-magic -- she was able to take down warden after warden.
Harry could have done it, likely. But not if they knew ahead of time what kind of magic he'd use...
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According to Harry, I think she was.
However Harry is always claiming that this foe or that was stronger than him. Yet even with a pissed off fallen angel at her disposal, he kicked her ass. Odd, don't you think? Considering when Harry had Lasciel's Shadow in his head, and went for the Hell Fire, no, I doubt that she was ever that strong to begin with.
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Amongst Harry’s competencies in magic you forgot neuromancy, Harry has used it to charm the Little Folk, to seduce the shadow of a Fallen Angel and to enrage enemies like Nicky into making mistakes. It’s what did for Hannah.
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Amongst Harry’s competencies in magic you forgot neuromancy, Harry has used it to charm the Little Folk, to seduce the shadow of a Fallen Angel and to enrage enemies like Nicky into making mistakes. It’s what did for Hannah.
I don't think Harry is a neuromancer.. He charmed the Little Folk by appreciating their service to him by rewarding them with something they value, pizza. He also valued them as beings when he insisted that they be freed from captivity by the White Court. None of that has anything to do with neuromancy.
He has a stronger will than most, I think that it is part of his star born make up.. Once he understood that Lasciel's shadow was in his head and her plan, he resisted with his will and was able to use her power where possible, though he did put himself in danger of going over the line at times. He renamed her, and by his decency won her over, you can call that seduction, but not neuromancy..
What pissed Hannah off was when he reversed the Red King's generational curse, it killed all the Red Court Vamps off and that part of humans who were half turned. A lot of her friends were fighting for the resistance it was true, but many of them had been doing it for many years because the vamp part of them kept them from growing old. However when the vamp part of them died, the human part became whatever age he or she was, and many simply died of old age.. That had nothing to do with neuromancy.
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Amongst Harry’s competencies in magic you forgot neuromancy, Harry has used it to charm the Little Folk, to seduce the shadow of a Fallen Angel and to enrage enemies like Nicky into making mistakes. It’s what did for Hannah.
I don't think Harry is particularly talented with neuromancy; he's got a REALLY strong will, though, so even a very-strong neuromancer finds him to be a hard target.
Most of what you're talking about, though, is another of Harry's stronger talents -- he's a world-class snarkomancer.
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I don't think Harry is particularly talented with neuromancy; he's got a REALLY strong will, though, so even a very-strong neuromancer finds him to be a hard target.
Most of what you're talking about, though, is another of Harry's stronger talents -- he's a world-class snarkomancer.
Yeah, that last one usually backfires on him.. ::)
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Yeah, that last one usually backfires on him.. ::)
mmmm.... kindasortamaybe?
I mean... it very-often causes the BadGuys(tm) to make stupid mistakes.
(that's why CT, above, mistook it for neuromancy)
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His battle with Eb is what I had in mind, he was up against a more powerful and experienced opponent, he defeated him by using neuromancy to provoke a ‘lethal’ attack on his decoy whilst he got to do what he intended to do.
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mmmm.... kindasortamaybe?
I mean... it very-often causes the BadGuys(tm) to make stupid mistakes.
(that's why CT, above, mistook it for neuromancy)
That's true, it is also called taunting, which really isn't neuromancy, because the bad guy wasn't forced by mind control to make those stupid mistakes, they just have a short temper, and have no control when they lose it. It backfires when Harry manages to really piss off a bad guy who keeps in control while pissed off and Harry gets his butt kicked.
His battle with Eb is what I had in mind, he was up against a more powerful and experienced opponent, he defeated him by using neuromancy to provoke a ‘lethal’ attack on his decoy whilst he got to do what he intended to do.
No, Harry did not tinker with Eb's mind in any way. Harry knew before hand that Eb was way stronger than himself, he knew that Eb was very capable of squashing him like a bug in any fight. So with Molly's help he made a copy of himself to do the fighting and get killed, while he tried to get away with Thomas. Harry didn't tinker with Eb's mind in any way, it was Eb's own prejudices against vampires and the fact that his own daughter had a child by Lord Raith that blinded him to the point where he would have killed his own beloved grandson over it.
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Neuromancy means to do it without mind control, no breach of the laws involved. Harry has never used magic in the examples I have given and yet was able to make a profound change in the attitude of a magical being, often one protected from the type of overt magical manipulation. Sometimes the best magic is not to use magic, in the same way Harry defeated Puck, it was either luck (and this is Harry we are talking about) or sleight of hand taught him by Malcom, or using the Roman candles in SG. Harry can think outside the ‘magic’ box.
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Neuromancy means to do it without mind control, no breach of the laws involved. Harry has never used magic in the examples I have given and yet was able to make a profound change in the attitude of a magical being, often one protected from the type of overt magical manipulation. Sometimes the best magic is not to use magic, in the same way Harry defeated Puck, it was either luck (and this is Harry we are talking about) or sleight of hand taught him by Malcom, or using the Roman candles in SG. Harry can think outside the ‘magic’ box.
It is a title of a science fiction novel and has no real meaning at all.
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I read Neuromancer when it was first published. Mab used the term “Neuromancy” in Battle Ground so she considers it to be a valid field of magic. Granny Weatherwax would have used the term Headology, both rely upon manipulating an individuals free will, without infringing upon than free will.
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I read Neuromancer when it was first published. Mab used the term “Neuromancy” in Battle Ground so she considers it to be a valid field of magic. Granny Weatherwax would have used the term Headology, both rely upon manipulating an individuals free will, without infringing upon than free will.
Mab may have used the term, but what Harry did in Battle Ground did infringe on free will. Whatever Mab thinks of it is not relevant really.. You cannot manipulate free will and not be infringing on it.
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Mab may have used the term, but what Harry did in Battle Ground did infringe on free will. Whatever Mab thinks of it is not relevant really.. You cannot manipulate free will and not be infringing on it.
How did Harry infringe on free will? Here's a paraphrase of that interaction:
Harry: Toot, Monsters are coming to destroy the city!
Toot: And?
Harry: They're going to try to kill me!
Toot: So a typical day?
Harry: And they'll destroy all the pizza shops!
Toot: Oh hell freaking no!! It's on like Donkey Kong!!
Harry simply found a way to motivate his vassals to give their all.
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Autocorrect turned didn’t into did. Harry doesn’t infringe upon free will, he merely gets you to change your mind or act rashly, but in the end it is your decision.
His now fearsome reputation following BG gives Harry a new weapon in his armoury of neuromancy, he tried it on Nameless, and it should have worked, however I think it didn’t because Nameless is Cowl and he is unlikely to be cow(l)ed by any neuromancy on Harry’s part until Harry knows more about his dual identity and motivations.
Oh well, it seems to work on the Merlin.
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How did Harry infringe on free will? Here's a paraphrase of that interaction:
Harry: Toot, Monsters are coming to destroy the city!
Toot: And?
Harry: They're going to try to kill me!
Toot: So a typical day?
Harry: And they'll destroy all the pizza shops!
Toot: Oh hell freaking no!! It's on like Donkey Kong!!
Harry simply found a way to motivate his vassals to give their all.
That's called leadership, compelling people to fight under the influence of some kind of magical banner is messing with their free will..
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I don’t think that’s how the banner works at least Harry’s, people join of their free will, it advertises what Harry is and what he is doing but that the extent of it, it doesn’t make the cowardly join (Rudolph) or those who have their own priorities (Bradley).
Marcones on the other hand…….
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I don’t think that’s how the banner works at least Harry’s, people join of their free will, it advertises what Harry is and what he is doing but that the extent of it, it doesn’t make the cowardly join (Rudolph) or those who have their own priorities (Bradley).
Marcones on the other hand…….
No, the fact that a banner had to be invoked at all says that the people who followed it didn't make the choice of their own free will. If they were afraid to fight, and then the banner, then suddenly they were ready to die? Does that sound like free will to you?
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No, the fact that a banner had to be invoked at all says that the people who followed it didn't make the choice of their own free will. If they were afraid to fight, and then the banner, then suddenly they were ready to die? Does that sound like free will to you?
Actually, it proves that the banner did not impinge on free will at all. Harry's Banner gathered 1187 followers. Even with all the fighting and chaos, do you think that's all the people that were present in that part of Chicago? If his Banner had compelled people to fight, there would have been children among his ranks and he wouldn't have had to give any pep talks. People were inspired to fight but they weren't compelled .
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No, the fact that a banner had to be invoked at all says that the people who followed it didn't make the choice of their own free will. If they were afraid to fight, and then the banner, then suddenly they were ready to die? Does that sound like free will to you?
Harry's banner gave them hope, I think.
And Harry led them to the wielder of Esperacchius.
Remember, Ethniu was trying to create Fear.
We don't know the mechanisms... maybe the banner just gave some measure of respite from Ethniu's fear.
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He understood the principles and found it simple, he therefore doesn’t need perfect recall.
Harry said that reanimating Sue was simple; I don't recall he spoke to the Darkhallow being simple (or not).
It was one of the Kemmlerites (likely Cowl, don't recall for sure) who said the Darkhallow was "simple," I think...
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Actually, it proves that the banner did not impinge on free will at all. Harry's Banner gathered 1187 followers. Even with all the fighting and chaos, do you think that's all the people that were present in that part of Chicago? If his Banner had compelled people to fight, there would have been children among his ranks and he wouldn't have had to give any pep talks. People were inspired to fight but they weren't compelled .
Then why, if I remember correctly Harry mentions the effects of the Banner wearing off? Mab was also involved in it's creation.. Now it could be it was allowed because Ethinu messed with their minds with fear, but both are messing with people's minds.
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The banner is part of the Winter Knights power set but most are not powerful enough to raise it.
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The banner is part of the Winter Knights power set but most are not powerful enough to raise it.
Thank you for making my point. It is part of the Winter Knight's power, Harry was powerful enough to use it.. So people who normally would chose not to fight, were compelled to, even if it was a matter of false hope, that is mind control.
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... even if it was a matter of false hope, that is mind control.
Except it was not "false hope."
Harry beat Ethniu, and most of his bannermen survived; their hope was fulfilled.
... people who normally would chose not to fight, were compelled to ...
Still not seeing any evidence they were "compelled"
We simply don't know what the banner *did* in any detailed way.
Simply being shelter (from crippling fear) might have been the whole of it.
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Thank you for making my point. It is part of the Winter Knight's power, Harry was powerful enough to use it.. So people who normally would chose not to fight, were compelled to, even if it was a matter of false hope, that is mind control.
The Winter Fae were compelled, the normal humans were inspired. The Banner's call was a good speech and rallying point, but the people had a choice.
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The Winter Fae were compelled...
I don't think they were compelled by any "outside" force; they were compelled by their own natures.
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I dont think the Banner counts as mind control. Harry had 2 angels ( via the swords) as guardians. He held a third (maybe). The spear. If he was taking away people's free will then the knights would have opposed him. Mr Sunshine does not allow anything to disrupt free will
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I dont think the Banner counts as mind control
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If he was taking away people's free will then the knights would have opposed him. Mr Sunshine does not allow anything to disrupt free will
That's an excellent point; the supernatural overriding mortals' free will is something the Knights (and Uriel) are deeply opposed to.
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I dont think the Banner counts as mind control. Harry had 2 angels ( via the swords) as guardians. He held a third (maybe). The spear. If he was taking away people's free will then the knights would have opposed him. Mr Sunshine does not allow anything to disrupt free will
True, but you left Mab out of the mix, she didn't care all that much about messing with people's free will under her Banner.
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Her people are not human. They are not protected by Uriel.
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Her people are not human. They are not protected by Uriel.
But it wasn't just her people that fought under the banner.
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The mortal fought under Harry’s banner they didn’t know Mab from a hole in the ground.
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True, but you left Mab out of the mix, she didn't care all that much about messing with people's free will under her Banner.
Mab mostly drew faeries to her Banner, very-few (if any) mortals.
Uriel, I think, mainly concerns himself with mortals' free will.
Because the Knights are specifically mortals, and the Queens' agents in mortal affairs, I think Knights' Banners are different from any Banners raised by the Queens; the principles of one don't necessarily apply to the other.
I think "leaving Mab out of the mix" (when discussing the Banner that Harry raised) is correct.
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Mab mostly drew faeries to her Banner, very-few (if any) mortals.
Uriel, I think, mainly concerns himself with mortals' free will.
Because the Knights are specifically mortals, and the Queens' agents in mortal affairs, I think Knights' Banners are different from any Banners raised by the Queens; the principles of one don't necessarily apply to the other.
I think "leaving Mab out of the mix" (when discussing the Banner that Harry raised) is correct.
But would Harry have attempted it if he weren't Winter Knight? He also felt guilty about it afterwards..
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Harry didn't "attempt" to form the Banner. It happened on its own and he slowly became aware of it.
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Harry didn't "attempt" to form the Banner. It happened on its own and he slowly became aware of it.
It happened as a side-effect of the WK banner, but something about Harry made it possible (very few WK's can produce a Banner).
We don't yet know what that "something about Harry" was, however.
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It happened as a side-effect of the WK banner, but something about Harry made it possible (very few WK's can produce a Banner).
We don't yet know what that "something about Harry" was, however.
According to Mab, "very few Knights are strong enough." Harry's strength made him capable of forming the Banner, I doubt Slate would have been able to.
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According to Mab, "very few Knights are strong enough." Harry's strength made him capable of forming the Banner, I doubt Slate would have been able to.
Yes, but what kind of strength?
Magical brawn? That's credible, as the foundation of a magical "Banner."
Strength of will? Also credible, as the basis of leadership; and a Nietzschean "will to power" is very winter-flavored.
Both needed? Also credible. And, of course, we know Harry's unusually strong with both.
Something else, something more? Given how little we understand about "Banners" (other than the big green irradiated kind), it's entirely-probable there's some ingredient missing from our recipe (tho not likely Gamma radiation).
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Strength of character, the ability to inspire others to be all they can be such as he did with butters, Molly and Toot.
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Strength of character, the ability to inspire others to be all they can be such as he did with butters, Molly and Toot.
Too much kindness and empathy there.
Maybe that'd be part of a Banner raised by the Summer Knight; but not Winter.
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Which is why most Knights can’t raise the banner as Mab relates.
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Which is why most Knights can’t raise the banner as Mab relates.
But those aren't traits that Mab would consider strength.
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Which is why it is so rare, and why Harry has to be Harry to undertake his duty.