Author Topic: Book of Kremmler  (Read 5300 times)

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2023, 05:15:34 AM »
I don’t think that’s how the banner works at least Harry’s, people join of their free will, it advertises what Harry is and what he is doing but that the extent of it, it doesn’t make the cowardly join (Rudolph) or those who have their own priorities (Bradley).

Marcones on the other hand…….

Offline Mira

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2023, 03:03:37 PM »
I don’t think that’s how the banner works at least Harry’s, people join of their free will, it advertises what Harry is and what he is doing but that the extent of it, it doesn’t make the cowardly join (Rudolph) or those who have their own priorities (Bradley).

Marcones on the other hand…….

No, the fact that a banner had to be invoked at all says that the people who followed it didn't make the choice of their own free will.  If they were afraid to fight, and then the banner, then suddenly they were ready to die?  Does that sound like free will to you?

Offline vincentric

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2023, 03:34:10 PM »
No, the fact that a banner had to be invoked at all says that the people who followed it didn't make the choice of their own free will.  If they were afraid to fight, and then the banner, then suddenly they were ready to die?  Does that sound like free will to you?

Actually, it proves that the banner did not impinge on free will at all.  Harry's Banner gathered 1187 followers. Even with all the fighting and chaos, do you think that's all the people that were present in that part of Chicago? If his Banner had compelled people to fight, there would have been children among his ranks and he wouldn't have had to give any pep talks. People were inspired to fight but they weren't compelled .

Offline g33k

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2023, 03:04:16 AM »
No, the fact that a banner had to be invoked at all says that the people who followed it didn't make the choice of their own free will.  If they were afraid to fight, and then the banner, then suddenly they were ready to die?  Does that sound like free will to you?

Harry's banner gave them hope, I think.
And Harry led them to the wielder of Esperacchius.

Remember, Ethniu was trying to create Fear.

We don't know the mechanisms... maybe the banner just gave some measure of respite from Ethniu's fear.

Offline g33k

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2023, 04:33:37 AM »
He understood the principles and found it simple, he therefore doesn’t need perfect recall.

Harry said that reanimating Sue was simple; I don't recall he spoke to the Darkhallow being simple (or not).

It was one of the Kemmlerites (likely Cowl, don't recall for sure) who said the Darkhallow was "simple," I think...

Offline Mira

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2023, 12:37:19 PM »
Actually, it proves that the banner did not impinge on free will at all.  Harry's Banner gathered 1187 followers. Even with all the fighting and chaos, do you think that's all the people that were present in that part of Chicago? If his Banner had compelled people to fight, there would have been children among his ranks and he wouldn't have had to give any pep talks. People were inspired to fight but they weren't compelled .

Then why, if I remember correctly Harry mentions the effects of the Banner wearing off?  Mab was also involved in it's creation.. Now it could be it was allowed because Ethinu messed with their minds with fear, but both are messing with people's minds.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2023, 01:59:44 PM »
The banner is part of the Winter Knights power set but most are not powerful enough to raise it.

Offline Mira

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2023, 06:22:18 PM »
The banner is part of the Winter Knights power set but most are not powerful enough to raise it.

Thank you for making my point.  It is part of the Winter Knight's power, Harry was powerful enough to use it.. So people who normally would chose not to fight, were compelled to, even if it was a matter of false hope, that is mind control.

Offline g33k

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2023, 06:45:50 PM »
... even if it was a matter of false hope, that is mind control.
Except it was not "false hope."
Harry beat Ethniu, and most of his bannermen survived; their hope was fulfilled.

... people who normally would chose not to fight, were compelled to ...
Still not seeing any evidence they were "compelled"
We simply don't know what the banner *did* in any detailed way.

Simply being shelter (from crippling fear) might have been the whole of it.

Offline vincentric

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2023, 09:26:18 PM »
Thank you for making my point.  It is part of the Winter Knight's power, Harry was powerful enough to use it.. So people who normally would chose not to fight, were compelled to, even if it was a matter of false hope, that is mind control.

The Winter Fae were compelled, the normal humans were inspired. The Banner's call was a good speech and rallying point, but the people had a choice.

Offline g33k

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2023, 01:00:15 AM »
The Winter Fae were compelled...
I don't think they were compelled by any "outside" force; they were compelled by their own natures.

Offline Tinfoil hat

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2023, 08:00:10 AM »
I dont think the Banner counts as mind control. Harry had 2 angels ( via the swords) as guardians. He held a third (maybe). The spear. If he was taking away people's free will then the knights would have opposed him. Mr Sunshine does not allow anything to disrupt free will

Offline g33k

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2023, 02:48:55 PM »
I dont think the Banner counts as mind control
...
If he was taking away people's free will then the knights would have opposed him. Mr Sunshine does not allow anything to disrupt free will
That's an excellent point; the supernatural overriding mortals' free will is something the Knights (and Uriel) are deeply opposed to.

Offline Mira

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2023, 03:49:22 PM »
I dont think the Banner counts as mind control. Harry had 2 angels ( via the swords) as guardians. He held a third (maybe). The spear. If he was taking away people's free will then the knights would have opposed him. Mr Sunshine does not allow anything to disrupt free will

True, but you left Mab out of the mix, she didn't care all that much about messing with people's free will under her Banner.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Book of Kremmler
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2023, 04:35:12 PM »
Her people are not human. They are not protected by Uriel.