Unless she takes up a Mantle....
They hooked up, enthusiastically, at the end of the last book.
is one of the reasons Iago is shutting the whole place down?For people being rude to each other.
I haven't read the book in a while. I remember Harry having a dream about hooking up, not that they actually did. At the end of the book she was in a hospital bed with a horribly injured leg.Making out with Harry. Very, very happily. After professing her love to him. After risking her life for him explicitly out of her love for him. After promising to walk through hell with him.
For people being rude to each other. My post wasn't rude. Neither was Raidem's... Yours? yes I think it was.None of the starting posts on any of the now-locked Murphy threads were rude. They all led to the same place.
“I want you to rest and get better, too,” I said. “We have some things to do.”
“Like what?” she asked.
I felt myself smile. There might have been something merrily wolfish in it. “Things I’ve only dreamed about.”
“Oh,” she breathed. Her blue eyes glittered. “That.” She tilted her head. “That was . . . was me?”
“That was you,” I said. “Seems fair. It was your bed.”
Her hand tightened on mine and her face broke into an open grin. I lifted her hand and kissed her fingers, one at a time.
“I am on so many drugs right now,” she said.
I grinned. She wasn’t really talking about her IV.
The nurse came in while we were kissing again. She cleared her throat pointedly.
Two or three times. I let her. The kiss wasn’t finished yet. The nurse went out in the hallway to complain to Rawlins, who appeared to listen politely.
Karrin ended the kiss with another little laugh.
pointless fights
She regarded me for a second, her expression difficult to read. “Save it for fight night, big guy,” she
said. She started to turn and then paused. “But once we’re clear of this mess . . .”
She smiled, and looked back at the pillow. Her smile was an amazing thing, equal parts joy and wickedness.
“Once we’re clear, we should talk.”
I found myself blushing furiously.
She gave me that smile again, and said, “See you in the morning.”
I've long realized that :). I've even ventured a guess, but I guess there are other options to consider other than Mab. I don't know but a series that begins with Harry and Murphy working cases together then ending together working together to save the Universe (Mab and her knight) screams symmetric to me. And, I like it. (There actually is a WOJ that Mab and Harry will save or attempt to save the Universe Mab style. So that is what Mab is up to; she is working with Harry to save it her way.)
Others don't but who cares.
There is a WOJL that says people have figured things out, and the internet is working against him :) I just don't know what the 'things' are. IF Mab=Murphy at some point, (which I've not had the greatest track record but if so, I'd count myself as working hard to propagate that theory). That said, Jim mentions there are like some far out theories but then they have nuggets of truth or in some small part touch too close to what is actually going on. (Paraphrasing lots)
In the same WOJL, he mentions some far out theories that he joshes like:
Harry is Merlin living his life backwards in time.
a few others, can't think of them right now; none were specific to my theories though. He didn't get to finish his thought though before he was asked about the Prisoner in Demonreach being Merlin to which he responded: No.
(which I've not had the greatest track record but if so, I'd count myself as working hard to propagate that theory)We know. Believe me. We know about your theory. Mission accomplished.
Mab is not Murphy. Nor do I believe Mab will ever be Murphy.
Or they are still very enthusiastically passionate for each other, just off page for the two short stories where Harry was one of the principles since Skin Game... However I still think it odd that if they were, her name wasn't mentioned once...
I just want to say that Murphden is a terrible ship name.Wouldn't that couple name be Hari-Kari? (The Hara-kari spelling doesn't work as well)
It's obviously Karry. Because I'll be very much surprised if it doesn't end in pain and death.
Wouldn't that couple name be Hari-Kari? (The Hara-kari spelling doesn't work as well)
I was making a bad pun.Me too! Harakari is another name for seppuku!
Karrin+Harry
First half of her name, second half of his. Makes "Kar-ry"
Pronounced "Carrie" (like the Stephen King Novel.)
I mean, do you believe any woman should retire from physically extensive activities or jobs the moment they hit forty? ???
Murphy, by Mika Blackfield (https://mika-blackfield.deviantart.com)
(https://orig00.deviantart.net/17c7/f/2015/337/7/f/mikablackfield_teamd2015_murphy_by_mika_blackfield-d9ivlfz.jpg)
Wouldn't that couple name be Hari-Kari? (The Hara-kari spelling doesn't work as well)
Why would her name be? Murphy has no reason to be mentioned in Jury Duty or Zoo Day. Hell, Harry doesn't mention Thomas or Molly, iirc. Clearly, that means Harry's no longer keeping in contact with them. Likewise, Harry doesn't mention Butters despite Butters calling him right before the short story so whoops, guess their relationship is close to falling apart.
Likewise, Harry didn't mention Maggie in Jury Duty. Clearly he kept no contact or thought of her until Zoo Day.
Another reason I thought Murphy may be leaving the combat scene is this. When Michael was shot up, someone asked Jim about it. He responded that this was Michael's happy ending. Most Knights do not survive. So in Skin Game we have Michael mostly recovered, and walking with only a cane.... Well now what has happened? Murphy, a Knight of the Cross has transferred ownership to Butters, she is still alive but will probably have a limp of some kind, just like Michael. Not only that but now she has a small fortune in diamonds. To me that kind of sounds like the opening for her happy ending. The ability to walk away from that dangerous life she's been living for so long.
Apples to oranges, a happy ending for a guy who already had a very happy family life made happier by him no longer going into danger and putting his life on the line... Michael was very happy with that as well as his family... Sorry, but I doubt that Murphy would see that as a happy ending for herself...
Apples to oranges, a happy ending for a guy who already had a very happy family life made happier by him no longer going into danger and putting his life on the line... Michael was very happy with that as well as his family... Sorry, but I doubt that Murphy would see that as a happy ending for herself...It's much happier for her character to have her die.
It's much happier for her character to have her die.
Because we want to be nice to her.
You say that, but she's next on the chopping block according to some people.
I mean, imagine what sort of psychological trauma she's gone through! It's really just a mercy killing.
Nah, Maggie Jnr is about as safe as anyone gets really, because her death would destroy Harry entirely thanks to the bizarre and unbelievable attachment to her that he developed instantly upon hearings she existed, despite not interacting with her till two books later.
Jim wants Harry to be hurting, but he needs him together enough to mostly function, so Maggie cant die, even if some of us wish she would because she's a bad plot device character.
On the television show Supernatural the character Dean Winchester, a hunter said "I know how my story ends. At the edge of a blade or the end of a gun". Murphy is an intelligent woman. She has to see how things are getting more dangerous, and that her chances of survival get lower the longer she fights. Maybe she is like Dean and is fine with it. On the other hand maybe she'd like to pass the torch so to speak so she can live some kind of peaceful life outside of combat.
I'm not saying her story ends and she isn't involved. She could work alongside Marcone, with the Paranet, or something like that. I'm talking about a life that isn't about fighting on the front lines like Harry, and more of fighting more like Marcone fights, less exposed in most situations.
It's much happier for her character to have her die.
Because we want to be nice to her.
I understand what you are saying, and you are right, she could do any of that. What I am saying given her personalityHey, here's a thing about people: They grow up and adjust to new situations. Fact of life. Murphy's done it before, and being that she's a mature adult, I have every confidence in it happening again.
that will be a very difficult adjustment for her. She may be forced into such a role, but no matter how meaningful it is, she will never be truly happy in it.
I’ve always been a Murphden shipper, but I have always suspected (especially now since they have hooked up with so many books left) that Harry is “destined” to end up with Elaine. Which does not bode well for Murphy’s continued health.
I understand what you are saying, and you are right, she could do any of that. What I am saying given her personalityBecause if there's one thing fans of a character like, it's when they die.
that will be a very difficult adjustment for her. She may be forced into such a role, but no matter how meaningful it is, she will never be truly happy in it.
It could be, and oddly it may turn out to be the happiest for her fans as well.
I can see what you mean about Elaine, but my impression is her path post-Justin has diverged enough from Harry's that it isn't feasible for them to join up. Harry's path is well set - defender of Chicago from sundry nasties, Sidhe pacts not withstanding. We don't know a whole lot about Elaine's doings other than the appearances in Summer Knight/White Night and the mentions of collaboration on the Paranet, but I get the impression she's taking on a parallel role to Harry out west. Them joining together would pull one of them away from those established paths.
Oh, Murphy's into Harry. And vice versa. She'll be benched for the duration of her recovery, and her lapse in judgment with the Sword will be a psychological weight to carry, but after so long denying herself the chance with Harry, she's finally gotten the point of saying "Screw it, I want this." I fully expect they'll continue to be an item in Peace Talks.
Consequentially, I also fully expect her to snuff it at some point. Not because she "can't keep up". She and Marcone have proven that vanilla mortals can run the race even better than some of their supernatural cohorts. Because her story in relation to Harry's seems ultimately tragic. She'll age and die, while Harry has the potential (dumb mistakes not withstanding) to continue on for centuries. They'll hook up, and finally know a little reprieve, but then the Malevolence of Butcher will be roused against them, seeing the opportunity to extract further anguish from the wizard, and she will know surcease.
Honestly, I'm thinking post Murphy Harry will eventually realize that Molly doesn't wear training bras anymore, he'll stop repeating that specific phrase about training bras, and once he sheds the mantle of Winter Knight, and through one way or another, Molly somehow unbecomes Sidhe, they'll hook up. She's a practitioner, so the aging thing won't be an issue like with Murphy. Unlike Elaine, Molly's path has been inextricably linked with Harry's from childhood. From being influenced by him hanging out with her dad, to becoming his apprentice, to taking over his role during the Ghost Story hiatus of wizardly presence, to basically becoming another version of Harry in Cold Days prior to the Demonreach Faerie Lady Two-Step, to now effectively being one of his bosses. They're stuck together, one way or another.
Elaine fulfills the "old flame" archetype perfectly. She's out of the picture. Murphy is a romantically sympathetic ally, and a hardy one at that, but at heart, she's a fighter. She'll die that way, while Harry will go on. Molly was not, and currently is not a viable option, but her arc is rife with potential. Proven Guilty through Changes showed a potentially tragic character, but she survived the purgatory of Ghost Story and veritably thrived in Cold Days. Molly isn't a hardy fighter destined to go out in a blaze of glory. She's now a full wizard, and wizards have a habit of saying "Screw you, destiny, I'm rewriting you."
Because if there's one thing fans of a character like, it's when they die.
Wait, no. What's the other term for someone who wants to see a character die every single time they bring them up? Not fan. Something else.
I don't think that kind of death suits Murphy.
If anything, it suits Harry. He's the one who's always a hair's breadth from a spectacular and explosive end, and if it comes to some kind of heroic sacrifice situation, he's going to run headlong into it so fast he'd give Wally West whiplash.
I think you guys are all seriously overplaying the "he likes to make Harry suffer" angle.
Susan was Harry's Gwen Stacy. Murphy is his Mary Jane Watson.
Fair. It is only my opinion. What do you see in store for her, either for the remainder of the series, or her eventual death beyond?I could see her ending up in a role somewhere between where she was and where Charity is. I don't see her as a stay-at-home type, but even before the injury, she knew well enough that any fight she was in was uphill. With the injury, she's at a greater disadvantage, and she knows that. So I see her being Harry's support (like she always has been), less likely to dive in and get rough, but still able to if she had to.
Agreed, it would suit Harry. But to allow disbelief for a moment, I'm assuming Harry won't die again until the BAT, if we see him die again this series.I place Murphy in a similar role. She might be the only character besides Harry to have appeared in every single book, and is very nearly as central a character as he is.
Here, I disagree with you. This WoJ: http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-and-stuff-i-didnt-put-into-other-categories/ (http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-and-stuff-i-didnt-put-into-other-categories/) contains a quote under Mystery Galaxy Signing Q&A. It reads "I don’t know the answers to questions like that, but I enjoy the hell out of torturing Dresden with them! That’s really kind of the point of what I do." Also, although I can't find a source for it right now, I remember a WoJ that went something like "I'm in the business of torturing Harry Dresden. And Business is booming!"Torturing Harry is what Jim Butcher does, not why he does. He might enjoy it, but I don't get sense that's what directs the plotline.
It might well turn out that way, but according to Mr. Butcher, he hasn't planned out Harry's love life. He wanted that to develop organically. Source: http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-harrys-friends/ (http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-harrys-friends/), from 2009 Kansas City Q&A. In the absence of a declared plan for the eventual lasting relationship (if any), I don't think we can definitively cast anyone as Mary Jane. My money is still on Molly, but it's just a guess.Right. Not planned out.
I could see her ending up in a role somewhere between where she was and where Charity is. I don't see her as a stay-at-home type, but even before the injury, she knew well enough that any fight she was in was uphill. With the injury, she's at a greater disadvantage, and she knows that. So I see her being Harry's support (like she always has been), less likely to dive in and get rough, but still able to if she had to.
One thing we can probably all agree with is that Jim loves the "seemingly helpless person turns out to be really dangerous" trope. It pops up frequently, and has even popped up with Murphy herself a few times. So what I'm expecting is some uppity faerie to start in on her, only to find out that Murphy's walking cane just so happens to be made out of stainless steel when she breaks his nose with it.
That's the kind of future I see for Murphy -- more support-ish, but still capable.
I place Murphy in a similar role. She might be the only character besides Harry to have appeared in every single book, and is very nearly as central a character as he is.
Torturing Harry is what Jim Butcher does, not why he does. He might enjoy it, but I don't get sense that's what directs the plotline.
Right. Not planned out.
Meaning, for example, that arguments that Murphy has to go to make room for Molly are, by that logic, hogwash.
That said, while he didn't plan it out from the start, I find it hard to believe he isn't thinking about the status as he plots upcoming books.
And I didn't mean so much that he'd planned Murphy to be Harry's MJ (Marvel certainly hadn't planned Parker's arc that way to start with) so much as she occupies the same kind of narrative space. Gwen/Susan were Harry's first in-story love, and one who died in circumstances that Peter/Harry hold themselves responsible for. MJ/Murphy are second-loves, who might have been around before Gwen/Susan, but who came into his romantic life later, after proving themselves trustworthy, reliable companions.
I just call it like I see it.
It seems to fit, though Murphy rejected that exact offer at the end of Aftermath.
I haven't read Aftermath. She was offered it by Odin or something?After the whole situation is sorted out, an impressed Gard approaches Murphy and offers her a job, and Murphy gives her a firm no.
I don't think she rejected that exact offer. It was an offer that was left on the table. We don't know what Murphy chose, except we do know that it appears since she was indeed injured that she hasn't yet taken the offer up.Nope, Murphy is pretty clear about rejecting the offer.
Gard offered it to Murphy. So it does seem that it is something in play, at least plausible.
Gard nodded, her eyes steady, and she looked back at the warehouse again. “There’s another position you might consider. Monoc Securities is always hiring. My boss is always pleased to find those with the proper”—she pursed her lips—“frame of mind. Considering your experience and skill set, I think you could do very well as one of our security consultants.”
“And work for guys like Marcone?” I asked.
“You should bear in mind that this is the second such incursion of the fomor,” Gard said in a level voice. “And there have been a half-dozen others nosing at the city in the last eight months alone. All of them have been turned away, courtesy of Marcone.”
“He’s swell,” I said.
“He keeps his word,” Gard replied, “which puts him a step above most of your own superiors, in my opinion. Like him or not, he has defended this city. It’s no minor thing.”
“Every predator defends its territory,” I said. “Pass.”
Her eyes glittered with amusement, and she shook her head. “Vadderung would definitely find you interesting. You’ve even got the hair for it. Don’t be surprised if you get a call sometime.” “It’s a free country,” I said. “Is there anything else?”
These threads really haven't changed much.nope...
But looks like she's interested in making her own Choices which makes her a lot like Harry.
I have been repeatedly assured on these boards that Murphy and Harry really have nothing much in common.I have been assured on these boards that Harry is already married to Murpy aka Mab.
It is going to be horrible for me when I'm wrong. I'll get over it quick, I promise. :)Don't get over it quickly. I want to read about the horror in a hundred posts or so.
Jim likes to complicate Harry's life. There is a really effective way to do this. Make Murphy the Summer Knight. In some ways she has been marked for it. The first is her inherit distrust of Harry (Winter) when he took up the Mantle by not giving him the Sword. The big one is she was the one to kill Maeve, the Winter Lady. Those two things to me seem like a big reason the Summer Knight's Mantle would gravitate towards her if Fix dies. She'd also be a very effective Summer Knight. Combine her martial arts background with the power of the Summer Knight, and her gun skills and she'd be really effective. Also Titania may like the idea of using her as it would really mess with Dresden's mind, and give Summer a psychological edge on him. Not to mention the Romeo/Juliet angle.
Yeah, somehow I really don't think Murphy's going to take up the mantle whose literal and only known job is "fight the guy who I'm in love with."
Especially considering she's not looking to get in bed with any supernatural deals, apparently.
I mean, "Jim wants Harry to suffer" does not override basic character traits and motivations.
Titania stated outright she doesn't give half a goddamn about Harry -- or anything -- anymore. So she's not going to go to extra effort to make his life hell.
Murphy has refused power-ups before from arguably much more benevolent sources, so she clearly doesn't want supernatural power. She knows enough about the Faeries to know you don't get anything out of a deal with them except bent over. And she's not going to take a position that makes her by default the mortal enemy of the man she loves.
These threads really haven't changed much.
I'm not sure why you think the book coming out is going to make any kind of difference to the Murphy haters.
Yeah, somehow I really don't think Murphy's going to take up the mantle whose literal and only known job is "fight the guy who I'm in love with."
Especially considering she's not looking to get in bed with any supernatural deals, apparently.
I mean, "Jim wants Harry to suffer" does not override basic character traits and motivations.
Titania stated outright she doesn't give half a goddamn about Harry -- or anything -- anymore. So she's not going to go to extra effort to make his life hell.
Murphy has refused power-ups before from arguably much more benevolent sources, so she clearly doesn't want supernatural power. She knows enough about the Faeries to know you don't get anything out of a deal with them except bent over. And she's not going to take a position that makes her by default the mortal enemy of the man she loves.
Hopefully they will soon, though. I'm optimistic enough about Jim's September deadline for finishing Peace Talks that I've started posting here again for the first time in years. "Zoo Day" made me miss the Dresden Files an awful lot, and then there are Jim's Q&As at the book signings for Brief Cases, and then he gave that WoJ that he was planning to be finished with PT before his wedding in September. It feels like the terrible Dresden Drought may be over at last!Human sacrifice? Really for a change this big a mere hundred cows won’t do.
*knocks on wood*
*crosses fingers*
*offers up a prayer to the heavens*
*considers actually making some sort of animal sacrifice just to be on the safe side, except that seems really extreme and gross, and I'm, like, half-vegetarian these days, so I'd probly feel even worse about it...*
Anyway, I'm hopeful.
Hopefully they will soon, though. I'm optimistic enough about Jim's September deadline for finishing Peace Talks that I've started posting here again for the first time in years. "Zoo Day" made me miss the Dresden Files an awful lot, and then there are Jim's Q&As at the book signings for Brief Cases, and then he gave that WoJ that he was planning to be finished with PT before his wedding in September. It feels like the terrible Dresden Drought may be over at last!
*knocks on wood*
*crosses fingers*
*offers up a prayer to the heavens*
*considers actually making some sort of animal sacrifice just to be on the safe side, except that seems really extreme and gross, and I'm, like, half-vegetarian these days, so I'd probly feel even worse about it...*
Anyway, I'm hopeful.
If a Lady's Mantle would do that I don't see why a less powerful Mantle wouldn't. I figured Fix dies, Murphy is near by, and because she had killed a Lady of Winter that the Mantle would recognize her as a suitable host.Because the Knights Mantles very specifically return to one of the Queens in order to be granted. It's how Aurora was able to shove it into Lily after Reuel died. They don't just go looking for their best person on their own.
I know she wouldn't accept it voluntarily. I was going with the idea of her taking up the Mantle the same way Molly did. Just as Maeve said the Mantle would seek out anyone who it deemed acceptable, and go to them. If a Lady's Mantle would do that I don't see why a less powerful Mantle wouldn't. I figured Fix dies, Murphy is near by, and because she had killed a Lady of Winter that the Mantle would recognize her as a suitable host.Not all Mantles work the same.
Not all Mantles work the same.
We know for a fact that the Knight mantles do not work that way.
"Fact" is a strong word that should be used carefully. In one case we have the Knight Mantle going to the Summer Lady, in another we have the Winter Knight Mantle not going to the Lady upon the death of the Winter Knight. I don't think we know for a fact what exactly the Mantle does or why, only some strong evidence that it goes back to Winter/Summer. Even Titania thought Winter had somehow stolen the Summer Knight Mantle, so we don't know how exactly it works.We don't, and do, Can't remember whom but someone said it goes back to the nearest reflection of itself... It being more or less a 'shadow' like Lasciel's, a bit connected directly to them, it would tend therefor to go back to one of them.... except if a greater mirror should exist that has not been identified. Though the table itself is kinda the cause of why the WK did not go to the lady or queen directly(which Mab was closer...)
I think they’re both pretty difficult people, but looking at it from a woman’s point of view, Dresden is a terrible potential partner.
I generally hate shipping threads, especially Murphy ones, but I am curious. I assume from your name you are a female, what about Harry makes you think he would be a terrible partner? Aside from the potential of putting his love interests in danger, since that would obviously scare a lot of real people away, but in the books it would not be something that Murphy would see as a negative.Aesthetics and such aside, his life is a mess. He’s not even his own man anymore. What sort of relationship can people even have like that? One of settling and convenience, really. But as a real partner, Dresden isn’t able to offer much. In terms of just having some comfort or whatnot, he’d do for something casual if you were into his look and lifestyle. Then again, any nice looking guy who didn’t have expectations would be better for something casual as Dresden does have expectations while being completely unsuited to what he wants. In the future, if he survives and his life is his own again and no longer a shitshow, he might be a better candidate. Right now, though, his life is a disaster.
I think Karen's original accessement was correct for all the reasons she stated but her current accessment is correct as well. Harry has changed, Karen has changed, the world has changed and what both are looking for in a relation has changed.
And they are both older.
Family, children, stable life? they are all out of the picture but what they have is shared history and a very good understanding of each other. They are both older and there are a lot of things they can not share with anyone else. There are a lot of things they can not share with or explain to anyone else.
They can be each others emotional support. It can work out.
God. We need a new book. Please don't allow Mr. Death to see the above.It should be ok as long as nobody quotes false evidence. But actually Murphy and Harry understand each other quite well and sometimes better than they understand themselves.
They have changed and they are older, their lives have been turned upside down.. Yes, I agree that they love each other on many levels, but is that enough? Reading the give and take between them the last couple of books says to me that they do not understand one another. In my opinion Murphy wants the old Harry back, this is how she talks to him, this is what she bases her advice to him.. He is never coming back.. I also think that Harry has blinded himself to a lot that has happened to Murphy as well.[citation needed]
[citation needed]
Karrin sat at the fire, staring in, a cup of coffee in her hands. Mouse sat beside her. When I came in, he looked over at me and started wagging his tail.
Which book is that quote from?Cold days, the end. Harry wanted to hook up with Karen but Karen was not ready for it. If you watch Mouse during this scene it is obvious that he was totally in favor of it.
Hmm... Mouse is trying to get Murphy and Harry together and he counts Mab as one of the good 'guys' to keep Harry alive in Zoo Day. :)I am sure it fits nicely in your Mouse is Cerberos and Harry is Hades theory. :-)
I am sure it fits nicely in your Mouse is Cerberos and Harry is Hades theory. :-)You mean the one Hades himself pointed out to Harry intentionally? ;)
You mean the one Hades himself pointed out to Harry intentionally? ;)Foreshadowed yes.
It should be ok as long as nobody quotes false evidence. But actually Murphy and Harry understand each other quite well and sometimes better than they understand themselves.
I don't have to fabricate evidence for this. I have divine inspiration. MSTR told me.
But don't take my word for it. Read the whole series again and watch Mister and Mouse. They are in favor of this relationship. That should tell you enough.
I am sure it fits nicely in your Mouse is Cerberos and Harry is Hades theory. :-)
No, I don't think they do, or at least Murphy doesn't. Much of her advice, her observations of him, her fear of him and for him are based on the pre-Changes Harry... In short she'd like the old Harry back, but he ain't ever going to come back...[citation needed]
No, I don't think they do, or at least Murphy doesn't. Much of her advice, her observations of him, her fear of him and for him are based on the pre-Changes Harry... In short she'd like the old Harry back, but he ain't ever going to come back...Actually some of it is comming back and he got a better handle on the things that did change. Just compare skin game Harry with cold days Harry and that becomes evident. Karen has a good grip on that. It is actually Butters who has not and caused serious problems because of that.
[citation needed]That won't get you far. The story came to me and I got a feeling I know is true. It has been revealed to me on a deeply spiritual level. I know the truth about Karen and Harry because Mister told me in a dream. Of course you won't take my word for that because you are blinded by your misconceptions so I make up some quotes and abuse some scenes for evidence, it is all in the service of the higher truth. Because Karen and Harry are champions of Mister and they are destined for each other.
Aesthetics and such aside, his life is a mess. He’s not even his own man anymore. What sort of relationship can people even have like that? One of settling and convenience, really. But as a real partner, Dresden isn’t able to offer much. In terms of just having some comfort or whatnot, he’d do for something casual if you were into his look and lifestyle. Then again, any nice looking guy who didn’t have expectations would be better for something casual as Dresden does have expectations while being completely unsuited to what he wants. In the future, if he survives and his life is his own again and no longer a shitshow, he might be a better candidate. Right now, though, his life is a disaster.He has a steady job with Mab, the shorts suggests he has a house all his own, he has a daughter to care for. And he's not a footsoldier or NCO anymore like he was as Warden in the Reds war, more like a senior officer now.
Actually some of it is comming back and he got a better handle on the things that did change. Just compare skin game Harry with cold days Harry and that becomes evident. Karen has a good grip on that. It is actually Butters who has not and caused serious problems because of that.
No, she doesn't, she sees the externals, but because she bases it all on what she used to know about Harry, and lectures him as to why isn't he like that now and how concerned his friends are that he isn't like he used to be, she is clueless... She doesn't ask questions nor does she really listen to him.. Murphy in truth is a very closed minded person, not saying she is bad, but she has her ideas and stands by them. That is what I think has driven me away from the character, it is like knowing your eleven year old, and thinking the same formula/lecture will work when he or she is twenty-five and has lived in the world... This is how she treats Harry... The biggest proof is what happened with the Sword after what she told Harry, that speaks volumes about her not trusting him on so many levels in spite of her love for him.That is manifestly not true based on Murphy's behavior in the books. Nothing you said in that graph is at all reflected in what Murphy has said or done in recent books.
I don't think I ever compared or said Mouse is Cerberos.Lol... I just realized that's reason why they stole not one but two of his siblings.(both doyalist and Watsonian) They represent the three heads of Cerberus together.
That is manifestly not true based on Murphy's behavior in the books. Nothing you said in that graph is at all reflected in what Murphy has said or done in recent books.Everything can be explained with the right application of the Murphy is Mab theory. Mab is slowly taking over Murphy but she does not completely understand humans let alone Harry.
We've gone over this before. Repeatedly. Murphy displays an enormous amount of trust in Harry during the books and is repeatedly and consistently shown to ask Harry things and listen to what he has to say. That is literally her major function in the books, so saying she never does so is completely at odds with reality and is therefore baseless, needless bashing.
The actions and attitudes you're ascribing to Murphy are simply not in evidence in the books. This is exactly what I was talking about on the first page of this thread.
You are not in any way describing Murphy. The character you're describing does not exist in the books.
The character you're describing would not have offered to follow Harry into Hades surrounded by some of the worst people and creatures on the planet. She would not have risked her life for him. She would not have offered him her bed when he needed test.
The character you're describing would have done none of the things Murphy did.
Everything can be explained with the right application of the Murphy is Mab theory. Mab is slowly taking over Murphy but she does not completely understand humans let alone Harry.
Harry is married to Mab so when Harry and Karen finally consummate their relationship the magical link will be completed and Murphy will turn into Mab which he will notice when he wakes up next to her.
Actually brings up a point. Will Mab care about Harry having a relationship?
Actually brings up a point. Will Mab care about Harry having a relationship?Not at all but she does have to meet some standards:
Your first engagement as the Winter Knight calls for something a bit less . . . postapocalyptic." She studied Susan with a critical expression. "Mmmm. And your concubine cannot be allowed to bring any shame upon you and, by extension, upon the queen."
I sputtered.
Susan arched an eyebrow. "His concubine?"
"His lover, the mother of his child, yet to whom he is not wed? I believe the term applies, dear." She waved a hand. "Words. La. Let us see."
Why the hell would she? Harry is just an tool to her, she has no care for whom he's bedding.They are married.
Except that there's already an actual three headed Cerberus hanging around. Mab and Titania don't go around having lunch with Hecate for example.No, your being literal while i'm looking at meta. There was also a WL already before Molly, whom also happened to change in style in direct unison with Molly's style(getting piercing's ect.), but the reason for that would be beyond the mundane world of literalness.
Actually brings up a point. Will Mab care about Harry having a relationship?
They are married.
Why the hell would she? Harry is just an tool to her, she has no care for whom he's bedding.
She'd only care if it affects his work...I don't say this often so take note:
I don't say this often so take note:If Karen is just a concubine sure but what happens if Harry and Karen decide to marry with full ceremony and so on, that sort of thing can get complicated.
I agree with Mira on this. Mab is very objective focused. She probably doesn't give much of a damn for silly mortal ceremonies so long as it's clear to Harry who he answers to and he does his job.
Well, a man taking multiple wives isn't unheard of in certain traditions. Though I imagine Mab would make it absolutely clear which wife took priority.Except that Harry and Karen will not marry in one of those traditions. The whole thing has ritual significance in the dresdenverse.
See, I don't get that viewpoint. For it to happen, two characters would have to pull a total reversal and Jim would have to undo a whole lot of character development to contrive it. I'd see that as terrible writing and betraying who the characters are. It would be like Harry suddenly deciding that Murphy is better kept in the dark, despite him having learned that lesson ages ago and repeating as recently as Zoo Day that he remembers it.
How is that something you wouldn't mind?
A couple of things: first, it depends on the circumstances. If it was handled with nonsense plot contrivances that don't make a lick of sense, I'd be furious at the betrayal. If it was motivated by, say, Murphy feeling left out because she can't keep up with Harry, I'd drop being a Murphy fan (which I am) immediately. But if the circumstances were such that they mirrored Harry's in Changes sufficiently, where Murphy was manipulated, beaten down, and needed to grab onto something to save Harry/Maggie/Someone Too Important to Lose, I could get behind it.
Second, Murphy's attitude about Harry being the Winter Knight (at least as recently as Skin Game) has been "You'll find a way to get out of it" (pretty much my attitude as well), so Murphy might not consider it as permanent as someone else. Harry does try to disabuse her of the idea that it's possible to wiggle free of the Mantle, but I don't know that she buys it.This is what I mean about not asking any questions or listening to what Harry has to say. I think she does more harm than good with the attitude that he could get out of the gig if he really wanted to. Perhaps she will come to understand that there is a lot more to wearing the mantle than meets the eye and there is a real need/place for the Winter Knight.
Third (very weak point coming up), the circumstances might not be such that she has much of a choice. I don't think the Mantle will head to her by default; Summer Knight pretty clearly demonstrates that the Knight's Mantle will snap back to whichever Court it belongs to. Aurora had manipulated matters and circumstances such that the Mantle didn't go anywhere, by hiding it in Lily, who she turned to stone rather than killed. It didn't have anywhere to go since its owner was still alive, just, you know, doing a Weeping Angel impression. But I could see circumstances of someone becoming a Knight against their will, and it might be a good way for someone to screw with Harry/Murphy (such as Sarissa, though I doubt she's holding a grudge).I keep reading suggestions about possible power ups and mantles for Murphy, but to my mind if this were to happen it would blow a lot of why many of her fans claim they lover her. That being she is the mortal vanilla human element in Harry's life that keeps him grounded... But give her a power up or a mantle, she can no longer come from that perspective.
Odin also implied Harry could get free of the mantle.
Does that mean he's also closed minded and deluded and doing Harry harm?
That is what has worried me and increasing since she left the police force, one reason why I am not much of a fan anymore.This is what I mean about not asking any questions or listening to what Harry has to say. I think she does more harm than good with the attitude that he could get out of the gig if he really wanted to.
I keep reading suggestions about possible power ups and mantles for Murphy, but to my mind if this were to happen it would blow a lot of why many of her fans claim they lover her. That being she is the mortal vanilla human element in Harry's life that keeps him grounded... But give her a power up or a mantle, she can no longer come from that perspective.
Odin also implied Harry could get free of the mantle.
My counter to this is that Murphy is the only one who's consistently pushing Harry to remain himself rather than submit to his situation. She wants his situation to be better, because Harry really doesn't like being the Winter Knight. Contrast that with Michael, who later in Skin Game tells Harry not to worry, because he's strong and tough and can stay himself anyway. While it's nice to hear, that's the kind of thing that gets someone stuck in the same place. It's sacrificing the future for the present.
I agree and I disagree; I don't want her to pick up any power-ups, but I don't think it would make her forget what it is to be human, or powerless.
Michael gave Harry confidence, Murphy's message didn't.. Sadly Harry has to think in the present, because if he doesn't and goes into battle against his powerful foes he won't survive...Murphy showed her love. It is clear she tried it anyway because that was the only way she saw to save Harry. And she did save Harry's life. It is still not clear what else she could have done at that moment, I have heard of no alternative action that could have realistically saved Harry's life at that moment and people have tried to come up with one.
No? Look what the Winter knight mantle almost did to Harry and he has been dealing with awesome power all of his life. Remember it was said that Slate wasn't always what he turned into after he became the Winter Knight. He couldn't deal with the power and temptations of it. Murphy is only human, she as susceptible as anyone else to temptation.. She showed her weakness when she thought she could handle a Holy Sword after stating all the reasons why she shouldn't..
She showed her weakness when she thought she could handle a Holy Sword after stating all the reasons why she shouldn't..So what you're saying is that Murphy was right and Harry was wrong when she disagreed with him about whether or not to bring the Sword on the mission.
Murphy showed her love. It is clear she tried it anyway because that was the only way she saw to save Harry. And she did save Harry's life. It is still not clear what else she could have done at that moment, I have heard of no alternative action that could have realistically saved Harry's life at that moment and people have tried to come up with one.Yes, but you see, if we take Nic's statement at face value that he was just pretending in order to break a sword, then she could have just done nothing and Harry would be fine.
So what you're saying is that Murphy was right and Harry was wrong when she disagreed with him about whether or not to bring the Sword on the mission.Yes, but you see, if we take Nic's statement at face value that he was just pretending in order to break a sword, then she could have just done nothing and Harry would be fine.For the psychological damage it does. Nicodemus us is full of shit so whatever he says first has a purpose and truth is only a bonus, even if it is true it was probably just a half truth anyway.
I mean, sure, we'd then have to ignore Nic's immediate follow up statement that compares what he did to Harry's attempt to run interference for Butters so he could escape and thus violate his duty to aid Nic, and also Harry's explicit recognition of how he could justify a legitimate attempt to kill Harry. But why would Nic lie about something like that?
Yeah, but he can also do damage by rubbing in how he was able to get away with almost murdering Harry by using the exact same logic Harry did.Well any theory based on believing what Nicodemus says is just plain silly :)
Basically, to presume that Nic was not going to have Harry killed requires us to believe him when he was talking about how it was all a lie, and then ignore the parts that come immediately afterwards, including Harry admitting that he's got an excuse for trying to have Harry killed.
Not that it stops people.
Well any theory based on believing what Nicodemus says is just plain silly :)(click to show/hide)
Silly indeed.
On the one hand we have Nicodemous's take on things, and on the other hand we have Harry's view on the matter. It is clear that Harry believes that his life, Butter's life and Murphy's life are in real danger during the incident.
Believing in Nicodemous is not only silly. It also makes Harry looks very stupid, and since Murphy learns most of her stuff about the supernatural world from Harry, I can't really blame Murphy for the mistake even in the impossible event that Nicodemous speaks the truth. If even Harry misread the situation so badly, Murphy making the mistake is only to be expected and since Harry is the one who invited her to be his partner in this game to begin with, Harry again being portrayed as a true idiot.
The idea that Harry's life is not really in danger, makes "team good" look so incompetent the entire Dresden files series become so much of a joke. that is how much damage the idea cause to the overall value of the story.
The idea is not worth the damage.
All of this ignores the fact that even before Murphy left her house she lectured Harry as to why she shouldn't use a Holy Sword... Yes, it worked for C.I. but she didn't like being a sock puppet for an archangel, so she didn't want to be a Knight on a regular basis... Most importantly she didn't believe in the rules that are set down for the Knights, i.e. she doesn't believe in the redemption clause of the rules. That is, if the Denarian surrendered and willingly gave up the coin he or she would be let go to seek their own redemption. She didn't believe that any of them deserved such a chance, they only deserved execution, thud her carrying a Sword thus put it at risk for being broken... Then she ignored her own advice, Nic had nothing to do with that... Yes, he played her beautifully and played off her emotions to achieve his goal of getting the Sword broken... It wouldn't have happened if she had left the Sword at home and I don't know, just shot him in the head to save Harry...The whole case is silly; in no sensible way was Nicodemus actually surrendering to Murphy. He was very clearly playing her, and I think it was a bit of an author's cop-out to break the sword for it.
The whole case is silly; in no sensible way was Nicodemus actually surrendering to Murphy. He was very clearly playing her, and I think it was a bit of an author's cop-out to break the sword for it.
And as Uriel says in Changes: whatever you do, do it for love. Murphy did exactly what Uriel recommended, and it worked out (as Uriel suggested), if different than anyone imagined.
Uriel said. "Whatever you do, do it for love. If you keep to that, your path will never wander so far from the light that you can never return."
Well yeah. The idea was never to convince Murphy, or anyone else for that matter, that he was really repentant. If anything, the goal was to do the opposite. He made himself a "defenseless," and "surrendered" captive so that she couldn't kill him with the Sword, then made it blatantly obvious that it was all bullshit and used Dresden to make her really really want to kill him with the Sword, then pushed it till something gave.
All of this ignores the fact that even before Murphy left her house she lectured Harry as to why she shouldn't use a Holy Sword... Yes, it worked for C.I. but she didn't like being a sock puppet for an archangel, so she didn't want to be a Knight on a regular basis... Most importantly she didn't believe in the rules that are set down for the Knights, i.e. she doesn't believe in the redemption clause of the rules. That is, if the Denarian surrendered and willingly gave up the coin he or she would be let go to seek their own redemption. She didn't believe that any of them deserved such a chance, they only deserved execution, thud her carrying a Sword thus put it at risk for being broken... Then she ignored her own advice,Because she had no other realistic option to save those she loved. She had to try. And if I had to choose between saving my wife or saving that sword I would have broken that sword myself if need be, it is just a tool after all.
Nic had nothing to do with that... Yes, he played her beautifully and played off her emotions to achieve his goal of getting the Sword broken... It wouldn't have happened if she had left the Sword at home and I don't know, just shot him in the head to save Harry...Would not have worked. He must be protected against bullets. Murphy was in a difficult situation not because she distrusted Harry or was lecturing him or whatever but because Harry and Murphy were trying to save Waldo from the consequences of his own actions.
All of this ignores the fact that even before Murphy left her house she lectured Harry as to why she shouldn't use a Holy Sword... Yes, it worked for C.I. but she didn't like being a sock puppet for an archangelI don't remember a lot of stuff from the books. Could you show where she says this?
She didn't believe that any of them deserved such a chance, they only deserved execution, thud her carrying a Sword thus put it at risk for being broken...
I don't remember a lot of stuff from the books. Could you show where she says this?Ditto. Also, Mira, please quote the bit where she says none of them deserve a chance and they all deserve execution.
After removing the Coin Nicodemus ordered the execution of the man she loves. I'd hardly say that she believes they deserve execution if they are actually seeking redemption, which Nicodemus was clearly not doing. Murphy is not a blood thirsty monster. If Nic's surrender hand been genuine, she'd have accepted it. She only raised the Sword to kill him after he ordered the murder of her friend. Nicodemus was protected because he removed the Coin, but he was not innocent, nor was he seeking redemption.
She doesn't, exactly. What she says is that she want's no part in helping them. She goes over this when explaining to Harry why she won't take up the Sword:That's exactly my point.
“And that’s why I’m not carrying one. I don’t want to save those animals, Harry."
I mean yeah, but I see why someone could read it that way. It's very much a blanket "fuck those guys" kind of statement- she's saying that she doesn't have it in her to even try and turn them around (not that I can blame her, I'd do the same).Here's the thing, though.
Which is imo quite in keeping with Karrin's character. She doesn't save badguys from themselves, she stops them. Like I always put it: there's a reason that Harry saw her as an avenging angel and not a guardian angel.
All of this ignores the fact that even before Murphy left her house she lectured Harry as to why she shouldn't use a Holy Sword... Yes, it worked for C.I. but she didn't like being a sock puppet for an archangel, so she didn't want to be a Knight on a regular basis... Most importantly she didn't believe in the rules that are set down for the Knights, i.e. she doesn't believe in the redemption clause of the rules. That is, if the Denarian surrendered and willingly gave up the coin he or she would be let go to seek their own redemption. She didn't believe that any of them deserved such a chance, they only deserved execution, thud her carrying a Sword thus put it at risk for being broken... Then she ignored her own advice, Nic had nothing to do with that... Yes, he played her beautifully and played off her emotions to achieve his goal of getting the Sword broken... It wouldn't have happened if she had left the Sword at home and I don't know, just shot him in the head to save Harry...
After removing the Coin Nicodemus ordered the execution of the man she loves. I'd hardly say that she believes they deserve execution if they are actually seeking redemption, which Nicodemus was clearly not doing. Murphy is not a blood thirsty monster. If Nic's surrender hand been genuine, she'd have accepted it. She only raised the Sword to kill him after he ordered the murder of her friend. Nicodemus was protected because he removed the Coin, but he was not innocent, nor was he seeking redemption.
If we are talking about qualifications to be a KoTC, then beyond doubt Murphy has fail. But just because Murphy has fail as a KoTC, that does not mean that her choice to pick up fid at the time does not saved Harry's life.
The 2 ideas cannot be mixed up together.
It does not negate the fact that there is no good options available and whatever path being chosen a price must be payed. Either Harry, Butters or Murphy has to die, or as what Murphy did, Fid is broken and Michael offer himself in exchange for Harry's life. Something has to give, because Harry decided to help Butters out and get caught in the action by Nick.Neither here nor there, given her feelings about the rules governing the Holy Swords, and she is very eloquent on that point to Harry knowing full well that breaking those rules could break one, she shouldn't have brought it. She could have been just as effective with her gun, expert marksmen that she is and quick too... Talk about saving Harry's life, she could have put a bullet between Gen's eyes in a twinkle, more effective in saving Harry than attacking Nic with a Sword.. Nic the button pusher was effective in doing it on all levels, he played everyone like a harp on that day... Only factor he didn't count on was Michael stepping up and Uriel putting his Grace on the line, that is what saved the day...
Mira. Your argument is disjointed.Basically a true knight would have failed here.
There are 2 different issues presented here.
If we are talking about qualifications to be a KoTC, then beyond doubt Murphy has fail. But just because Murphy has fail as a KoTC, that does not mean that her choice to pick up fid at the time does not saved Harry's life.
The 2 ideas cannot be mixed up together.
It does not negate the fact that there is no good options available and whatever path being chosen a price must be payed. Either Harry, Butters or Murphy has to die, or as what Murphy did, Fid is broken and Michael offer himself in exchange for Harry's life. Something has to give, because Harry decided to help Butters out and get caught in the action by Nick.
If Nick truly cannot kill Harry, Harry does not need to be so hesitant. He can just bring Butters to the carpenters home and then taunt Nicodemous: "You can't kill me!!!!" when he get surrounded by Nick and the Genoskwa. If there truly no danger, and there is truly no price need to be paid, why so much hassle? Unless Harry is an idiot and simply does not understand the rules.Of course that is exactly what Nicodemus wants you to believe. It would make Harry less effective and increase Murphy’s suffering.
Except being a human in this case was more important than being a knight. It is not that Karen let the whole world burn. In the end breaking find was repairable.
It does not change the fact that Murphy proven herself to be unsuited for KoTC duty however. No matter how nescesary her choice is, When push came to shove, Murphy sacrifice fid for Harry's safety. It is kind of sacrificing public interest for personal interest. It is almost like Harry's attitude to let the world burn as long as he can save little Maggi. For a KoTC, such an attitude is not acceptable.
This does not however means that her actions and choices has no value. Murphy did save Harry by wielding fid, even if it cause the holy sword to be broken.And then you have to ask yourself what is more important. Failing as a knight or failing as a human being by not even trying?
Again, mixing up the 2 issues is misleading. Murphy fail as a Knight, but she definitely does not fail as a person and as a woman.
Actually this brings up an interesting question. Was Anduriel listening in on Harry, and Murphy's conversation when she stated that she didn't want to help the Fallen?Of course he was. Nicodemus is not stupid but he is not as smart as he wants people to believe, he is just well informed. when that is out of the picture he does make mistakes and most of those follow out of the nature of the fallen what has become his nature, he lies and betrays more than necessary which makes him predictable in that respect.
Whether or not it was sincere isn't the point, Cassius's surrender wasn't sincere either, yet Michael and Sanya had to accept it, those are the rules, it isn't their place to judge... Didn't say Murphy was a blood thirsty monster, however she is a cop, seen a lot of bad people in her day and has an opinion of what should happen to them, she judged Nic and decided his sentence. That was her fuck up, regardless of her motives..Maybe not important for being a knight but very important for being a human. And mark that when Cassius surrendered the knights worked around that, they did not prevent Harry from doing what he did.
Yes, they can, because the rules are for the Sword, why they were made, doesn't matter if she was a Knight at the time or not.. She broke the rule that governs the Sword... As to saving Harry's life, it was a ploy on Nic's part to get Murphy to attack then he skillfully pissed her off enough to try and execute him with the Sword after he surrendered.. If Harry's death was what he really wanted, his skull could have been crushed in a nano second, before Murphy even got the Sword pulled out.. Or after Nic succeeded in goading her to break the Sword, he could have singled Gen to crush Harry's skull... So no, her bringing the Sword along only put the Sword in danger, regardless of her motives...Neither here nor there, given her feelings about the rules governing the Holy Swords, and she is very eloquent on that point to Harry knowing full well that breaking those rules could break one, she shouldn't have brought it. She could have been just as effective with her gun, expert marksmen that she is and quick too... Talk about saving Harry's life, she could have put a bullet between Gen's eyes in a twinkle, more effective in saving Harry than attacking Nic with a Sword..Nicodemus knows how to handle guns, he would have been dead already if not. It is just not a realistic option.
Nic the button pusher was effective in doing it on all levels, he played everyone like a harp on that day... Only factor he didn't count on was Michael stepping up and Uriel putting his Grace on the line, that is what saved the day...Again the whole theory just is based on believing Nicodemus when he tells Harry how smart he is. Against all other evidence brought up. This idea is combined with the idea that there must have been a way to save the sword and everyone else by being a good knight. The first point is against everything we know about Nicodemus and the second point is against everything we know about the dresdenverse where actions have consequences. Butters choices had consequences and Karen's choices narrowed them down.
Actually this brings up an interesting question. Was Anduriel listening in on Harry, and Murphy's conversation when she stated that she didn't want to help the Fallen?
Basically a true knight would have failed here. Of course that is exactly what Nicodemus wants you to believe. It would make Harry less effective and increase Murphy’s suffering. Except being a human in this case was more important than being a knight. It is not that Karen let the whole world burn. In the end breaking find was repairable.
Most people would have failed as a knight, some people would have failed as a human being. Some of them would have given up the sword immediately afterwards because the sword is not just something wonderful, it is also a burden that sometimes unrealistic demands. Sacrifice is part of it and that includes self sacrifice.And then you have to ask yourself what is more important. Failing as a knight or failing as a human being by not even trying?
Actually this brings up an interesting question. Was Anduriel listening in on Harry, and Murphy's conversation when she stated that she didn't want to help the Fallen?Almost certainly. Anduriel was probably listening in on everything Harry was doing that it could, hence Mab needing to specifically block him off for Harry to talk to Kringle and Grey.
Murphy's choice -- a choice she arrived at because of Butters mucking things up and her and Harry's decision to save him --Both she and Harry were idiots. I'd let the little fucker rot.
Which is, again, why Murphy doesn't tell Harry she's bringing the Sword. She recognizes that he's keeping things close because he knows he's being watched; ergo, she doesn't blithely give away her own trump card by telling Harry.
As for Murphy "put a bullet between Gen's eyes in a twinkle," recall that when Harry shot the Genoskwa, it was using a gun that was bigger than Murphy and the Genoskwa didn't even seem to notice. Nicodemus and the Genoskwa both looked at Murphy holding a rocket launcher and were confident they'd shrug it off.
Oh, and while Murphy is taking that totally ineffective shot at the Genoskwa, Nicodemus is going to murder the hell out of her. And then kill Harry anyway.
Murphy was in an untenable position. There was not quick fix that would have gotten everybody out alive, and believing that Nicodemus was telling the truth about not wanting Harry dead requires ignoring who Nicodemus is, Harry's conclusions and basic common sense.
I mean, what do you seriously think happens if Murphy doesn't arrive with the Sword? Nicodemus to shrug and go, "Oops! Well, that didn't go how I thought. Sorry about that, see you at the hide-out, no hard feelings!"? The idea is absurd.
Murphy's choice -- a choice she arrived at because of Butters mucking things up and her and Harry's decision to save him -- was to lose the Sword or lose Harry.
Yes. I've seen this brought up as Murphy not trusting Harry, but Harry blatantly tells her that he's keeping things close to the chest—even when they're alone, in her house, behind a threshold. Aside from which, there's really no reason to tell Harry she's bringing the Sword anyway; it's not like he's going to use it. In fact, she brings out the "rocket launcher" and deliberately avoids calling it that; she just says it's something that'll make the Genoskwa think twice.
Even worse than that, look at the position she was holding Nic in. He was on his feet, with the Sword pointed at his throat. Murph was across from him, also on her feet. If she shifts at all to draw a gun—across her body, mind you—she loses the position, and Nic gets free. Nic is really fast; Michael considers him an even match against himself—a guy who is a professional Sword-guy. Part-time, maybe, but he puts in a lot of hours. Murphy is good—really good—which is why the ruse had some semblance of verisimilitude at all—but nobody's good enough to beat Nic twice. Hell, the moment she tensed up to kill him, he wriggled out of the danger, grabbed her wrists, and wrestled the Sword away fro
And if she didn't use the Sword, but instead relied on standard weaponry, Nicodemus would've slaughtered her. It wouldn't have even been close; the Sword helps keep Anduriel at bay. Without it, Anduriel is free to shadow-stomp her.
I mean, what do you seriously think happens if Murphy doesn't arrive with the Sword? Nicodemus to shrug and go, "Oops! Well, that didn't go how I thought. Sorry about that, see you at the hide-out, no hard feelings!"? The idea is absurd.
Even if she was able to beat him, it wouldn't have done lasting damage. He still had the Noose during the fight; he takes it off when he "surrenders"—which is what I think actually makes the Sword vulnerable, too. If he had kept it on, and Murphy knew that, I think the Sword would have remained unbroken.
Butters deserves a big chunk of blame for the whole situation. He didn't have Faith (yuk-yuk-yuk) in Harry and Murphy's good intentions. It's only when it's restored that he redeems himself.
No. I won't move on. You can move on. Don't tell me what to do, thank you.But that is futile because:
You are constantly and forever arguing with Mira about Murphy. You engage in that behavior. I'll engage in mine.
Assuming Murphy is Mab or becomes Mab or becomes some Mantled individual and Anduriel/Nicodemus knows it, what is Nicodemus aiming at with his interplay with Murphy and say Mab. Is he trying to poke an eye at Mab by screwing with Murphy, one of her prior reality past selves?
That is my take anyway. Nicodemus knows who Mab is and is poking Mab by beating the hell out of Murphy. And Mab is poking Nic by screwing him over with the plot of Skin Game.
But that is futile because:All you seem to do here anymore Arjan is troll idea's you don't like...
Mouse == Mab
Clearly the superior theory. Proof? Better alliteration.
You are missing the point, it isn't about how good Murphy is with the Sword, or that she beat him... It is all about what she did after he surrendered. It was about her saying "damn you," then attempting a killing blow, the Sword wouldn't allow itself to be used that way and the additional insult of breaking the rules got it broken.. Remember back in Grave Peril when Harry tried to kill Lea with Michael's Sword and it fell out of his hands? Michael said it wouldn't allow itself to be misused like that, Lea scooped it up to take to the party to bargain with for the Knife, and it was to be used in a sacrifice to be unmade...The sword broken was the least important part of the whole affair. Michael understood as he told Harry before the sword was remade:
Michael smiled at me a little. “You’re a good man, Harry. But you’re making the same mistake Nicodemus always has—and the same one Karrin did.”
“What mistake?”
“You all think the critical word in the phrase ‘Sword of Faith’ is ‘sword.’”
I frowned at him.
“The world always thinks that the destruction of a physical vessel is victory,” he said quietly. “But the Savior was more than merely cells and tissue and chemical compounds—and Fidelacchius is more than wood and steel.”
All you seem to do here anymore Arjan is troll idea's you don't like...I sometimes make a joke when the situation calls for it, that is all. There is no malice in it. Do not take it too seriously. Concentrate on the things you like.
*vehemently disagree, argue evidence to the contrary, ignore them, ect. Don't sit there and make tasteless jokes on people's idea's as a way to cut at them.
Everyone who thinks saving that wood and steel is more important than saving Harry and Waldo makes that same mistake.
Which brings us to the important decision and that is not what she did when Nicodemus did his mock surrender, she knew she was not knight material and that she would place saving Harry above saving a denarian soul. The important decisions were bringing the sword and risking it to save lives. That decision was made earlier.
After that all her decisions were made under heavy pressure and she was following her nature. she did what she thought was best and she achieved a lot. She saved the day. She deserves recognition for that. Especially since I did not really read a better action plan here and we had years to think about it, she had to decide immediately.
You miss the point of the carefully crafted set up, that is why as he beat the crap out of her, Nic took such pleasure in taunting her. Neither Harry nor Butters were ever really in danger, Nic wasn't going to jeopardize his deal with Mab. Harry saw through it, but wasn't able to warn Murphy not to attack. Nobody is saying that life is less important than steel, but truth was, she wasn't saving anyone, she let herself be tricked and she went right where Nic wanted her to go.
Yes, she knew, but she was also arrogant, so arrogant as to think she knew better than Harry, or even God... She was self proclaimed custodian, not the custodian.. For the sake of argument lets go along with she was bringing the Sword to wield herself in spite of the danger she would put it in because with it she could save lives... But if that was the real intention, the opposite would have happened... 1] After the Sword broke, Nic would have beaten her to death, not just cripple her, oh he may have had Harry's skull crushed in front of her first.. No lives would have been saved..
No, she didn't save the day, she merely was played and got a Sword broken..
You miss the point of the carefully crafted set up, that is why as he beat the crap out of her, Nic took such pleasure in taunting her. Neither Harry nor Butters were ever really in danger, Nic wasn't going to jeopardize his deal with Mab. Harry saw through it, but wasn't able to warn Murphy not to attack. Nobody is saying that life is less important than steel, but truth was, she wasn't saving anyone, she let herself be tricked and she went right where Nic wanted her to go.To believe that you have to believe Nicodemus gloating which was not designed to deliver truth but to do maximum harm. It was part of the beating. Such stuff is always never completely true. It just has to be the most negative story that is even remotely plausible at the moment. Plausible for someone who is beaten down anyway.
Yes, she knew, but she was also arrogant, so arrogant as to think she knew better than Harry, or even God...That is just slander inspired by Nicodemus gloating. She was desperate to make something out of a hopeless situation and that was why she took the sword. And she did. It ended badly for her but that means it ended up beter for everyone else.
She was self proclaimed custodian, not the custodian.. For the sake of argument lets go along with she was bringing the Sword to wield herself in spite of the danger she would put it in because with it she could save lives... But if that was the real intention, the opposite would have happened... 1] After the Sword broke, Nic would have beaten her to death, not just cripple her, oh he may have had Harry's skull crushed in front of her first.. No lives would have been saved..She was the de facto custodian. Harry gave the swords to her. If you have the swords in your possession you are responsible for them as long as you can not give that responsibility to someone else. She could not give the swords back to Harry in Cold Days for obvious reasons as was foreshadowed by Sanya so she was stuck with them. She just did her best as everyone should have done.
No, she didn't save the day, she merely was played and got a Sword broken..
I'm not sure why you guys are still doing these. You know everyone who will argue for either side, you've seen the arguments from them a dozen times and replied with your own arguments and it never goes anywhere. Are you all just too stubborn to quit?
I'm not sure why you guys are still doing these. You know everyone who will argue for either side, you've seen the arguments from them a dozen times and replied with your own arguments and it never goes anywhere. Are you all just too stubborn to quit?
Now I know that most people don't believe in the theory of Murphy being Mab. That being said does anyone else find it curious that Murphy, and her sister have a messed up relationship similar to Mab, and Titania? Mab and Titania's fallout was over a man. Murphy's ex husband married her younger sister (That has got to cause friction). Not saying there is a connection, although it is I dunno, weird. Kind of like Harry's path seems similar to Merlin's.
I'm not sure why you guys are still doing these. You know everyone who will argue for either side, you've seen the arguments from them a dozen times and replied with your own arguments and it never goes anywhere. Are you all just too stubborn to quit?The alternative is to not challenge someone when they put forward something that is not just wrong but patently false.
The alternative is to not challenge someone when they put forward something that is not just wrong but patently false.And clearly not a joke. If it was a joke I would just laugh and maybe just improve it or counter it with a different one, there is not enough humor here lately.
Murphy is Mab is a bit far fetch for my taste. Murphy taking up the mantle of one of the queens of faerie in the future however, well that is worth contemplating.
If Murphy continue to stay around Harry, she might be dragged into the political power struggles of the fae realms. She already garnered some attention from Gard, and by extention Vadderung. Which menat she is in Kringgle's radar and if Mab does not at least notice her, Mab is an idiot and an idiot Mab is not.
Now I know that most people don't believe in the theory of Murphy being Mab.There may be some type of intellectus going on where Mab/notMurphy knows that a Mab/Murphy exists in some past/present/future/alternate reality and there is feedback occurring by the existence of this Mab/Murphy existing out there somewhere. Perhaps what I'm picking up in perceived ironies/foreshadowing is not necessarily that Murphy=Mab but rather that somewhere at sometime Murphy=Mab and it is affecting our Mab.
And clearly not a joke. If it was a joke I would just laugh and maybe just improve it or counter it with a different one, there is not enough humor here lately.And born out of apparently irrational hatred of a character. Murphy = Mab, even if I'm tired of seeing it, at least doesn't have that kind of needless derogation behind it.
There may be some type of intellectus going on where Mab/notMurphy knows that a Mab/Murphy exists in some past/present/future/alternate reality and there is feedback occurring by the existence of this Mab/Murphy existing out there somewhere.Would this be the same intellectus that lets completely random people like the mailman know that Harry is switching universes? The same intellectus that must exist in order for someone who has absolutely no other way of knowing something know that thing to justify a whacko theory?
And I wasn't the first to subscribe to the idea of some sort of intellectual amongst past, present, future Mabs. Ms. Duck argued similarly at some point too.Isn't it obvious? Mab has her own form of intellectus that tells her things about her past and future, same mechanism by which she knows the chess board set up vs Titania and when it's whose turn to balance whom, though battleship might be more accurate lol. They know a move is made, not always what move.
What theories have you put forth. What have you tried to imagine. Are you afraid of being wrong.This may come as a shock but some of us are fully capable of discussing and enjoying the books without coming up with oddball theories or trying to push them in every discussion.
You know what I'm wondering. How is Murphy going to respond when she finds out Kincaid was the trigger man who shot Harry? Even though Dresden hired him, I don't expect Murphy's response to be anything less than explosive!I have a hard time believing she doesn't already know, or at least heavily suspect it, especially if Harry's musings on the subject are anything to go by.
I have a hard time believing she doesn't already know, or at least heavily suspect it, especially if Harry's musings on the subject are anything to go by.
I wouldn't expect her to do much, unless she finds out suddenly, while Kincaid is in the room with her. I don't see her as going after him otherwise, since she knows what he's capable of and that he's likely to take her out even if she does kill him. And getting yourself killed avenging a man is a little silly when the man you're avenging is not, in fact, still dead.
In fact, didn't they talk about it in either Cold Days or Skin Game?I don't recall.
This may come as a shock but some of us are fully capable of discussing and enjoying the books without coming up with oddball theories or trying to push them in every discussion.And if there is truth, or some truth, to the odd ball theory, how will you feel when some of them are right.
In fact, didn't they talk about it in either Cold Days or Skin Game?
And if there is truth, or some truth, to the odd ball theory, how will you feel when some of them are right.Dunno, so far I haven't seen an oddball theory come anywhere close, and I'm pretty confident they're not going to.
Oh wait. I remember. You said sometimes you dread reading the next book for fear some of the theories you found distasteful and that have been argued on this forum might come true.That's not quite what I said or meant.
Besides that I was making a point before that it is rather easy to not create 'oddball' theories. I've made a Murphy=Mab theory that is similar to Ms. Duck's Molly=Mab theory. I use it while reading the Dresden Files. In doing so, I get the quirks of the interplay etc if in fact Murphy ends up Mab, which I wouldn't get until I finally found out that she was Mab. Using the construct, I can also make predictions. Since my theory is durable, I can apply it in many different situations which is why it can pop up many times on this forum. I also like to find ways I can weave it when I find inconsistencies. I'll have to later focus more on those but still, it is a work in progress. At least I don't spend my time arguing the same argument about Murphy with Mira.And you can do all that without inserting it into every thread that has anything to do with Murphy.
I actually do something I enjoy. Unless you actually enjoy arguing with her, in which case keep doing so.
They didn't. Though, I did get the impression in Cold Days that Murphy had put it together about Molly. And in GS, it was apparent she knew Kincaid had killed Harry but she most likely didn't know who had hired him. Harry pointed out that Murphy left out Kincaid as one option as the murderer.Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. Between them, Murphy and Harry seem to imply that Murphy knows, though I suppose until one of them says something outright we won't know for sure.
Dunno, so far I haven't seen an oddball theory come anywhere close, and I'm pretty confident they're not going to.Challenge Accepted. See any one of my theories on Arthurian legend, or pretty much anything to do with the gyre or history repeating or ect. :)
dread reading the next book for fear some of the theories you found distasteful and that have been argued on this forum might come true.And every time a new book comes out I relish the look on peoples faces when some of mine do come true mwahahahaha.
I think Mother Winter will end up dying too. I mean her dying is much more powerful at stakes type of event than even Mab.
We do have a WOJ about one of the Mother's dying/changing and its result on the Fae. He was talking though with respect to the abdication I believe of the last Mother Summer, or possibly the theoretical changing of that position in the future.
And born out of apparently irrational hatred of a character. Murphy = Mab, even if I'm tired of seeing it, at least doesn't have that kind of needless derogation behind it....
*more stuff I cut because it's a bit of a wall of text*
Depending on Mother Winter's relationship with the concept of Death (Dresden mentioned when summoning her that she was about as close to that persona as many thought you could get), she might not be able to die, even on Halloween. What is dead cannot die, anyone?
If possible, I do think it likely, primarily based on my analysis of Cowl's agenda. Either leading up to or within the BAT, I'm expecting some massive infrastructure changes and destabilizations in the supernatural realm. The Faerie Courts might go the way of the Aesir and Vanir, leaving the defense of reality to new players. Assuming, of course, that reality survives.
An eloquent articulation of how I feel about both topics.And that is exactly the problem. Telling Harry he is wrong is called lecturing. It is a sign of arrogance and it implies you don't understand Harry. Nobody should say Harry is wrong, it will only undermine his confidence. It shows you don't love Harry. It is actually a sign you are trying to undermine Harry. You are evil, you should die in the next book. It is better for you.
Mostly, it's not that I'm a fan of Murphy, it's that there is a very, almost absurdly specific interpretation of her actions throughout the series that leads to people painting her as a villain, or not supportive of the guy she promised to walk into Hades for, or who took up a holy Sword on a suicide mission to attack what appeared to be the entire Red Court, or who... you get the idea. It's like anything she does that's positive is interpreted negatively, or gets selfish motivations ascribed to it, or she's otherwise blamed for not knowing everything Harry does, or treated as though her own thoughts and emotions shouldn't matter to the choices she makes.
I mean, we get it, and we all agree: she broke the Sword. That likely could've been avoided if she could see the future. But bringing it along wasn't arrogance, it was for two reasons: first, she wanted to protect Harry. Second, she decided to bring it after they met the Genoskwa, and she saw him toss Harry across the warehouse, shrug off Harry's magic like it was nothing, and essentially kick his butt without trying. She realized that they needed a different weapon to deal with him, so she brought the Sword. She was wrong; the weapon they needed was Goodman Grey, but she didn't know he was on The Team. Even he wasn't able to finish it off.
Anyway, I will likely never agree with some people here about Murphy. I think she's a good character who's demonstrated she's on Harry's side more times than I can count, and remains one of the only people in Harry's life who is willing to tell him he's wrong.
Also, come on, guys: Jim is not going to end their relationship within one book of it finally starting, not after twenty years of buildup. Give it until Body Slam at the very least, cuz Murphy probably won't be in Mirror, Mirror much.
Mother Winter isn't death. And she can abdicate, then move on like the previous Mother Summer did.Is this to prepare the Molly-Harry ship? Because I think Molly as winter queen shoul invite Carlos to make a few changelings.
I'd like to see Mother Winter go down, cuz you know it would be EPIC.
Is this to prepare the Molly-Harry ship? Because I think Molly as winter queen shoul invite Carlos to make a few changelings.I dunno, I think being beaten close to death would end Carlos' interest in that idea.
I dunno, I think being beaten close to death would end Carlos' interest in that idea.
When I did say that, I did not mean things like "Murphy = Mab," because I'm extremely confident that such theories are nowhere near anything that Butcher actually has planned for the series, and I don't take them remotely seriously enough to think they'd actually have any bearing at all on the books.
I'm more thinking, "I hope he doesn't kill off Murphy, because we'll never heard the end of it from the people who hate her."
You forgot Murphy was really goodman gray’s father einde ghost story :)Who had that WAG?
Is this to prepare the Molly-Harry ship? Because I think Molly as winter queen shoul invite Carlos to make a few changelings.I'm really not a Ship person, other than Harry/Murphy. I'm just saying a Winter Queen that hasn't changed in recorded human history is bound to change.
Who had that WAG?I just made that one up. If it sounds like something discussed here earlier then that tells you something about Murphy bashing on this board. :)
I'm really not a Ship person, other than Harry/Murphy. I'm just saying a Winter Queen that hasn't changed in recorded human history is bound to change.It is something to talk about until the next book but when either mother winter or Mab goes down Molly will become winter queen at the worst possible moment. Probably at the start of the Apocalypse or something like that. Molly takes her duties seriously so she will be busy..
Today, I was thinking about Babylon 5 a bit. We know Jim was watching much of it while writing plotting out the series. In Babylon 5, there is emphasis placed on "the One". It turns out this "the One" actually is a trinity of people: Sinclair, Delenn, Sheridan. The one who was, who is, who will be. We have it established that the Queens are also divided by this division. I'm wondering if "the One" idea will end up playing a part in the Dresden Files. I mean we could have "the One" being a trinity of Starborn. Or, a trinity of Mab's affecting the mantle at any one time. Or just "the One" being a trinity of Fae Queens. It should be noted however that this "the One" identity is tied up in a time traveling plot whereby one of "the One" goes back into the past 1000 years ago. This would be similar to my idea that Murphy becomes Mab; or similar to Ms. Duck's theory that Molly becomes Mab.
Wow. I know first hand the battle with a mental illness. It isn't fun.
I actually made some strides in finding out partially what is behind mine at least. Of course this is off topic but I hit my head during a swim meet when I was 16. I had mental breakdown at 19 due to OCD with computer games. But recently, I went to neurologist who in her infinitely wisdom had me go through a sleep study. She found sleep apnea, both obstructive and central apneas with severe oxygen desaturations as low as 83%. So, I've had a chronic apnea problem for some time, possibly due to me hitting my head. I go back to see my neurologist early next month.
The other peculiarities with the sleep study is I had no stage 3 sleep and I had a high Rest Disturbance Index of 17. I'm going to be getting a BIPAP to help me breath better at night. Hopefully that will help. I've had insomnia for a very long time so I'm thinking some of these apneas most likely go back to when I was 16 and I'm 38 now. I'll point out that the obstructive apneas are airway blockages whereas central apneas are a glitch between/in central nervous system and respiratory muscles.
So now, maybe some of my crazy theories and behavior at times previously should be viewed through the lens of a psychiatric patient who has chronic oxygen desaturations.
Well. Who knows, there is that guy in Cold Days that fed the Paranet the clues about the boats. He lives at home with his mom I think. He operates out of the basement. I think it is said he has a mental illness. Maybe he has undiagnosed sleep apnea as well.
If Dresden Files is going to be similar to the real world, there will be people with mental illness and with sleep apnea, whose behaviors are touched by oxygen desaturations at night :). I mean after all those head injuries, one would wonder if Harry doesn't have some sort of mild traumatic brain injury and sleep apnea to go with it. Same can be said for Cowl or other Wardens engaged in war. We have many veterans coming back from wars overseas with traumatic brain injuries and mental illnesses associated with either the stress and/or the head injury. The wardens most likely have had injuries either PTSD or direct injuries to their head; therefore it is likely they too experience mental illnesses and sleep apneas as well. It is a dangerous combination with their combat abilities. I mean it is comparable to putting a gun in the hands of mental ill patient undergoing active psychosis. It isn't a safe thing to do.
What role would wizard healing play, though? Specifically with brain trauma? It's been suggested that wizards might heal injuries that normal humans don't heal from.
Not to add to that, but why have we never seen Harry get magical medical attention when he gets banged up? Which is at least once a year. Always at home, always Butters because either he doesn't want to mess with the IC machines or because he doesn't want the gunshot wounds reported.We have. In blood rites Eb uses something to help him keep his hand and Harry's in the white council infirmary at the end of turn coat
We have. In blood rites Eb uses something to help him keep his hand and Harry's in the white council infirmary at the end of turn coatIn blood rites Eb uses something to stop the pain. He did nothing for the hand whatsoever.
In blood rites Eb uses something to stop the pain. He did nothing for the hand whatsoever.
And in Turncoat, well. He was incapacitated in the freaking headquarters.
I would hope that wardens suffering from PTSD and other things that could contribute to experience-based trauma would receive some treatment from the Council's medical corps.
That kind of treatment, combined with their natural healing abilities, could help a wizard recover after a few years. Faster, if they'd research mental magic in the name of medical aide.
Not to add to that, but why have we never seen Harry get magical medical attention when he gets banged up? Which is at least once a year. Always at home, always Butters because either he doesn't want to mess with the IC machines or because he doesn't want the gunshot wounds reported.
The bracelet helped with the pain but didn't Eb rub some sort of cream all over the hand as well? I don't remember but thought he did. As for why he doesn't always use magical medication. My guess would be that just like only one person on the Council can make enchanted swords, magical medicine is probably rare to come by and only specific people like LtW can even make it.That too.
In blood rites Eb uses something to stop the pain. He did nothing for the hand whatsoever.Nah, Ebenezer specifically said he did something that should help Harry's bloodflow in the hand in addition to helping with the pain.
And in Turncoat, well. He was incapacitated in the freaking headquarters.
Nah, Ebenezer specifically said he did something that should help Harry's bloodflow in the hand in addition to helping with the pain.
Going by the examples in the RPG's rulebook, it seems that most magical healing doesn't do much more than start or maybe slightly speed up the normal healing process. Any kind of "instant fix" is in the realm of sponsored magics, like Summer.
Makes me wonder if Listen to Wind would have a Summer Mantle. He being a healer, and being big on protecting nature seems like a natural fit for him.... as short as he is I'd laugh if he was secretly EG. I'm still partial to Shakespear, but LTW would make an ironic donut scene too.
Makes me wonder if Listen to Wind would have a Summer Mantle. He being a healer, and being big on protecting nature seems like a natural fit for him.It seems to fit, but from the descriptions we have, I wouldn't be sure. For one, he apparently has to keep going to medical school to keep up, which is consistent with regular wizardry "healing," which requires that you know what you're doing, as opposed to Summer Magic healing, in which the sponsor does all the hard work.
Also Elaine did some magical healing stuff, using Reiki to move energy around or somesuch, in White Night.Yeah, that's the clearest basis for an example in the DFRPG books -- with the caveat that it only works on certain types of injuries (mainly blunt trauma -- it won't make wounds close any faster, and even then, only up to a certain severity).
Nah, Ebenezer specifically said he did something that should help Harry's bloodflow in the hand in addition to helping with the pain.I remember now, thanks.
Going by the examples in the RPG's rulebook, it seems that most magical healing doesn't do much more than start or maybe slightly speed up the normal healing process. Any kind of "instant fix" is in the realm of sponsored magics, like Summer.
It seems to fit, but from the descriptions we have, I wouldn't be sure. For one, he apparently has to keep going to medical school to keep up, which is consistent with regular wizardry "healing," which requires that you know what you're doing, as opposed to Summer Magic healing, in which the sponsor does all the hard work.There is probably some black magic trick that makes you heal really fast. Something with human sacrifice probably :-)
Yeah, that's the clearest basis for an example in the DFRPG books -- with the caveat that it only works on certain types of injuries (mainly blunt trauma -- it won't make wounds close any faster, and even then, only up to a certain severity).
The sense I've gotten is that magical healing basically does what mundane medicine can, only different and sometimes slightly faster.
It seems to fit, but from the descriptions we have, I wouldn't be sure. For one, he apparently has to keep going to medical school to keep up, which is consistent with regular wizardry "healing," which requires that you know what you're doing, as opposed to Summer Magic healing, in which the sponsor does all the hard work.
Another possibility worth considering is that even the Summer Healing may require the conscious, practical knowledge of what you are fiddling with before it will work, and the only reason the Fae are good at it is that they are not restricted by all those pesky Laws against using magic to manipulate the bodies of others. It has better PR but Healing Magic (especially the water-based stuff as I understand it) is the same 1/2 step from Law Breaking that Ectomancy, Chronomancy, and Neuromancy all are, which is to say they make the Council verrry nervous even if they are useful.Not according to the write-up in the RPG. That, at least, makes it pretty clear that healing is a part of Summer and Winter magics because the sponsor is doing the leg-work for you as far as medical knowledge goes. That's basically the entire advantage to healing through that magic instead of normal mortal magic.
Not according to the write-up in the RPG. That, at least, makes it pretty clear that healing is a part of Summer and Winter magics because the sponsor is doing the leg-work for you as far as medical knowledge goes. That's basically the entire advantage to healing through that magic instead of normal mortal magic.That's what I meant: even if it is a fae handling the magic, the magic still requires a guiding intellect that understands the changes needed and directs the magic accordingly. Even if it is Sponsored Magic, there is still a requirement for somebody to actually have hte knowledge; there is no free lunch magic that could, for example, heal an alien with unknown physiology.
You're not far off about it being transformative, though. It is in the same school of magic as 2nd-law-breaking spells, though the fact you're just fixing things lets it slide, I think.
That's what I meant: even if it is a fae handling the magic, the magic still requires a guiding intellect that understands the changes needed and directs the magic accordingly. Even if it is Sponsored Magic, there is still a requirement for somebody to actually have hte knowledge; there is no free lunch magic that could, for example, heal an alien with unknown physiology.Oh, I thought you were saying that, for instance, if Harry picked up Summer Magic and wanted to use it to heal, Harry would have to have the medical knowledge. My mistake.
Oh, I thought you were saying that, for instance, if Harry picked up Summer Magic and wanted to use it to heal, Harry would have to have the medical knowledge. My mistake.No worries, I wasnt as clear as Id hoped. The main distinction I had in mind was comparing it to things like Cosmere healing (been spending time on the Brandon Sanderson subreddit) where healing more typically abotu pouring power in to the person which restores their bodies to it's former self based on some combination of platonic ideal and your own self-image.
Oh my... I just had a odd thought about butters and his newfound abilities... he knows the human body atl...
*rolls eyes*One, Butters is the new era dv JesusBruceLeeChrist so show some respect (:P).
Yes, because that's what Butters needs. More Powerups.
It's not enough that he's a Magitech Jedi Batman MMORPG Protagonist.
I wonder if Michael actually completely healed Harry with that lay on hands while wielding Uriel's Grace in Skin Game. I mean, maybe he no longer has a broken back that he has to worry about without the Winter Knight mantle post Skin Game.
Naw, I think his back has been fully healed since Changes, however Mab isn't going to tell him is she? Perfect leverage, when he rebels as he did in Cold Days, suddenly his spine won't hold him up... It would make no sense for it not to be healed, because there might be times when Mab's magic/influence is blocked for some reason, she cannot have her Winter Knight literately falling apart when she might need him the most.I agree. She's too smart to have her knight vulnerable to anyone but herself.
Mab fixed his back. That was the agreement so she did.
Could Harry have fixed his own back, and Mab basically did what Lea did in the past and just fooled him? He Believed she fixed it, so it was fixed.No because the agreement was very specific.
No. We saw that once Harry said screw winters law the back is broken. So it wasn't healed completely. I argue that Michael may have healed it completely in skin game while wielding uriels Grace. Michael did lay on hands to help Harry against nics wife.
So I'm talking about a healing that goes past winter.
We have woj that winter isn't really into healing. So it likely is that what mab did is an approximation of healing but she can leave Harry paralyzed without her ongoing magical support.I believe she did fix it, it was part of the agreement for him to become Winter Knight, it was specific ergo, she couldn't go back on her word... Have to go back to what was originally agreed to to see. Now if they agreed as long as Harry remains her Knight his spine would be healed, then when he said screw Winter, she was free to re-break his spine. However if they agreed simply that in return for him becoming her Knight she'd fix his spine, there is no way she could get out of the bargain without serious repercussions.. No, Mab isn't into healing for the sake of it, but to get what she wants she'd do it... So when Harry's legs turned to noodles when he said screw Winter, I think it was an illusion.. If Harry pressed her on their bargain, her come back would be, "see, where would you be if I hadn't helped you? Remember our deal..."
It isn't an illusion though, as in it's all in Harry's mind.. Severed spinal cords do not work that way. I believe she did fix it, it was part of the agreement for him to become Winter Knight, it was specific ergo, she couldn't go back on her word... Have to go back to what was originally agreed to to see. Now if they agreed as long as Harry remains her Knight his spine would be healed, then when he said screw Winter, she was free to re-break his spine. However if they agreed simply that in return for him becoming her Knight she'd fix his spine, there is no way she could get out of the bargain without serious repercussions.. No, Mab isn't into healing for the sake of it, but to get what she wants she'd do it... So when Harry's legs turned to noodles when he said screw Winter, I think it was an illusion.. If Harry pressed her on their bargain, her come back would be, "see, where would you be if I hadn't helped you? Remember our deal..."I agree about the injury. Placebo effect won't work with severed nerves.
Another possibility is that she installed a magical bypass to connect the nerves of the spine while it heals itself over 40 or 50 years. In that case, screw winter law = screw winter magic = magical bypass temporarily fails.
I think y'all got it backwards.
I don't think breaking winter law "undid" the back healing.
I think what happened there was Mab going, "If you break winter law, I will put you right back how I found you." I.e., that she possesses the power over him to just break him again if she wishes.
I agree about the injury. Placebo effect won't work with severed nerves.
Another possibility is that she installed a magical bypass to connect the nerves of the spine while it heals itself over 40 or 50 years. In that case, screw winter law = screw winter magic = magical bypass temporarily fails.
*rolls eyes*
Yes, because that's what Butters needs. More Powerups.
It's not enough that he's a Magitech Jedi Batman MMORPG Protagonist.
If it is your ordinary magical fix, cold iron under the skin should nullify it.
It does not happened that way though.
Iron under the skin give Harry a lot of pain, but he is not paralyse or lose all feeling on the lower body parts.
If it is indeed just a magical bypass, it is something beyond the normal rules.
I don't think Michael physically healed Harry at all. His arm's still busted, after all. I think all he did there was drive Tessa away.That's the impression I got. What Michael says during that scene is "Lava quod est sordium." Roughly translated from an amateur, it's essentially "Cleanse that which is unclean." Literally translated, it's "Wash the dirt/filth." That got rid of the Tessabugs. It's followed up with simple faith magic/prayer, which calms Harry and buys him enough time to put his pain blocks back up.
I don't think Michael physically healed Harry at all. His arm's still busted, after all. I think all he did there was drive Tessa away.That is a good point. I was thinking that Michael had inadvertently healed Harry's back, but if he didn't heal Harry's arm then he most likely didn't heal his back either. And yes, that was the time I was referring to when Michael cleansed Harry from Tessa.
I do wonder what the knock down effects having Uriel's Grace within Michael will have, and having Michael exercising it
See. I think Michael was allowed free will. And he could use his free will with the Grace, while Uriel couldn't even do that. Therefore, I see that Michael having the Grace and being in that position has more flexibility than had it reside in Uriel. So, Uriel counted on achieving more with it than he could have done by himself. Of course, the immediate use was to heal Michael so as to allow him to intervene successfully against Nic. I think though Uriel needed to have his Grace on the mission to Hades realm.
Part of the thing may be that Michael has the power but not the knowledge to use it. We see something like that in The Warrior, but it's possible that Michael could have used Uriel's power to do something that he thinks is right, and that even seems like the proper thing to do, but has unforeseen consequences or violates some of the more subtle rules governing it.
Also Uriel made it clear not to "play with the controls". Michael of all people would die before defying TWG's will. He loves Harry very much but he'd let himself, and Harry both die before violating Uriel's words. He'd have used it only so he could walk.Devil's Advocate Statement: Until his Family is Threatened, at which point his priorities can potentially shift (see Warrior for an example). If things had gone differently at the end there, if he were somehow certain Harry would failed and Nic would murder his family, I dont know that he'd have been able to hold himself back. He trusted Harry to get there in time and save the day, but gun to their heads and I think you could make him desperate enough to make a mistake.
Devil's Advocate Statement: Until his Family is Threatened, at which point his priorities can potentially shift (see Warrior for an example). If things had gone differently at the end there, if he were somehow certain Harry would failed and Nic would murder his family, I dont know that he'd have been able to hold himself back. He trusted Harry to get there in time and save the day, but gun to their heads and I think you could make him desperate enough to make a mistake.
Maybe for his family. However Uriel's Grace did not fall so he didn't play with it at all.Oh, agreed. I just meant that while he would certainly Die before he risked it he might not be willing to stand by and watch them die. I think that is the only lever that might actually do it.
Oh, agreed. I just meant that while he would certainly Die before he risked it he might not be willing to stand by and watch them die. I think that is the only lever that might actually do it.
Oh, agreed. I just meant that while he would certainly Die before he risked it he might not be willing to stand by and watch them die. I think that is the only lever that might actually do it.
I doubt that that would do it, Michael's faith is unshakable, he'd put his trust in the Almighty. He'd believe if they were meant to die, it was God's will.. If they weren't, the Almighty would step in in some way to save them.. He might even believe when weighed against an archangel falling, the sacrifice of his family pales in the larger picture of things.. Michael doesn't think in the same way that you or I do, that is one reason why though he is left a cripple for the rest of his life, he is happy..I agree. That's what true faith means. And even though a little cynical voice tell me that every one has their breaking point, I know that there are some people who's faith is staggering. I've seen it a few times in real life. It's not inconceivable that Michael is one of those.
I agree. That's what true faith means. And even though a little cynical voice tell me that every one has their breaking point, I know that there are some people who's faith is staggering. I've seen it a few times in real life. It's not inconceivable that Michael is one of those.
I think it's pretty clear even Michael does. Just look at how he nearly beat Father Douglas to death in "The Warrior" and only snapped out of it because of Harry. It's not hard to imagine Michael having another moment like that under extreme circumstances, faith or not. That's part of being human.Wouldn't have been wrong to do it either. Nothing wrong with an eye for an eye.
Wouldn't have been wrong to do it either. Nothing wrong with an eye for an eye.If you do not have a proper justice system available. It is an improvement from let’s just kill and eat them I suppose.
A very nice justice system indeed. He never went to jail, the church took him to "take care of it's own". How's that any different?That is because the story runs on another moral view. one where mercy is more important than justice. The first is seen as an opportunity to save souls and the second is seen surrendering to lower emotions like revenge, hate and so on.
I think it's pretty clear even Michael does. Just look at how he nearly beat Father Douglas to death in "The Warrior" and only snapped out of it because of Harry. It's not hard to imagine Michael having another moment like that under extreme circumstances, faith or not. That's part of being human.
Yes, but that was his own soul at stake, not the fate of an archangel, who had lent him his Grace.. Notice he used a baseball bat, not a Holy Sword if I remember correctly. At the end of Skin Game, Michael didn't use Uriel's Grace even though he knew that Nic and company were going after his family. I guess one could argue that since he suddenly had trouble walking that the Grace had gone back to Uriel, but he fought like a mortal, so I doubt that it had.
A man tries to kill my daughter better pray to God for mercy. I won't have any. I'll just kill him. If he succeeded however, that's where torture comes in.Very human and completely understandable but it is not the mentality big states are build on, it is the mentality that causes bleud feuds and wars between families. It can cause anarchy.
Maybe that's just me, but I doubt anyone would do any less if their children were threatened, and they had the ability to do something about it.
That's not the point of my argument: my point is everyone has a breaking point where even faith isn't enough. He didn't just let "faith" guide him in The Warrior and believe God will protect Alicia.
So I repeat, everyone has a breaking point, including Michael, where gosh they might make a mistake. I mean, Harry does. Repeatedly.
Yes, everyone does, but if you are entrusted with what Michael was, you handle it, no matter how hard, you handle it... If Uriel and his Boss were not sure of that, Michael would never have been entrusted with such an important thing no matter how vital the mission.
That is why when someone breaks into your home you are supposed to call the police and not kill them on sight. I know it can be difficult but that is what you are supposed to do :)Somehow I don't see any character of DF that would do that. Much less Michael the fist of God himself.
Comes down to Choice. They had trust in Michael, but there was still a chance he could have messed up.Yes, he is human, but Uriel and his Boss had faith in Michael..
Oh, and isn't God supposed to help those who help themselves? So you take action, lift that baseball bat (or preferably a 12 guage shotgun) against the intruder, rest assured that you're doing the right thing. By God, if not by Law."God helps those who help themselves" is in no way part of the Bible.
Somehow I don't see any character of DF that would do that. Much less Michael the fist of God himself.Actually no. You are probably more at home with old Norse paganism or something like that.
Oh, and isn't God supposed to help those who help themselves? So you take action, lift that baseball bat (or preferably a 12 guage shotgun) against the intruder, rest assured that you're doing the right thing. By God, if not by Law.
A man tries to kill my daughter better pray to God for mercy. I won't have any. I'll just kill him. If he succeeded however, that's where torture comes in.
Maybe that's just me, but I doubt anyone would do any less if their children were threatened, and they had the ability to do something about it.
At the end of Skin Game, Michael didn't use Uriel's Grace even though he knew that Nic and company were going after his family. I guess one could argue that since he suddenly had trouble walking that the Grace had gone back to Uriel, but he fought like a mortal, so I doubt that it had.
Ehh...the duty to call the police instead of handling it yourself first is different from state to state. Stand Your Ground laws and Castle Doctrine states offer various protections to those defending their property, not just their lives.Human law makes concessions to human nature, public opinion and practical reasoning, religious law often does not and asks for more.
Right now, there seems to be only one character that can generate so much discussion. It is Murphy. I mean right now, we are on 20 pages of Murphy discussion. I just looked briefly through the forums on the first few pages, nothing comes close.
The one character that Jim has us most interested in it seems is Murphy.
No, I'm pretty certain Uriel was still mortal; didn't he get a nosebleed or something during the Carpenter House fight? Regardless, Michael had the opportunity and motive to abuse Uriel's Grace, but didn't. Though, at that point, I think he was putting his faith in Harry, too, not just TWG.
lol one reason I started it :-x... One thing I do love about discussions like this is it started as Murphy theory and morphed into a discussion about Michael. Kinda cool
Michael got brought up in part because of him wielding uriels Grace.
Yeah. You know what's funny. When Murphy made her error against Nicodemus, he in turn error'd against the Sword. He took the Sword, and broke it on the ground because he didn't have Faith the Sword could work without the blade. The correct way is to unmake the Sword by killing an innocent with it.You know, I always wondered how they know that.
You know, I always wondered how they know that.
I mean, obviously it hasn't happened before. So how could they know what would or wouldn't unmake it?
You know, I always wondered how they know that.I imagine Anduriel knows, thanks to the powers of being a fallen angel.
I mean, obviously it hasn't happened before. So how could they know what would or wouldn't unmake it?
I imagine Anduriel knows, thanks to the powers of being a fallen angel.Id go with that. They still follow Rules, just Rules that we wee mortals have difficulty understanding. Or TWG informed the knights somewhere/somehow along the line (seems like the sort of thing the rules would allow the Knights to know).
Yeah. You know what's funny. When Murphy made her error against Nicodemus, he in turn error'd against the Sword. He took the Sword, and broke it on the ground because he didn't have Faith the Sword could work without the blade. The correct way is to unmake the Sword by killing an innocent with it.That's how you destroy Amoracchius (aka the Sword of Love), which as cold-hearted murder of an innocent is arguably a supremely Loveless Act. The Sword of Faith is Destroyed by Faithlessness, or an act of treachery (per SmF). Im guessing the Sword of Hope would be destroyed by an Act of Despair where somebody would need to commit suicide on it.
Id go with that. They still follow Rules, just Rules that we wee mortals have difficulty understanding. Or TWG informed the knights somewhere/somehow along the line (seems like the sort of thing the rules would allow the Knights to know).
That's how you destroy Amoracchius (aka the Sword of Love), which as cold-hearted murder of an innocent is arguably a supremely Loveless Act. The Sword of Faith is Destroyed by Faithlessness, or an act of treachery (per SmF). Im guessing the Sword of Hope would be destroyed by an Act of Despair where somebody would need to commit suicide on it.
But the other aspect is that, per GP, a Swords destruction is a two-stage thing. First it needs to be made Vulnerable through mis-use, rendering it a mundane sword the way Harry did with Lea that time. Then, once a wielder has exposed it the final destruction can be done, which was where Mavra was going to murder an innocent with it. It's possible that Nic was hoping Murphy's strike would be enough internal/emotional betrayal to do the deed, but I think it more likely that he just went for the lesser Win. Even if the Sword's magic/spirit wasnt permanently destroyed it should have taken months or years to reforge the Sword into something that would actually threaten him; ensuring that one of the defunct swords stays defunct is a Win for him, especially now when all the Big powers are realizing the clock is almost out, so a few years more is all that really matters.
Nic may have wanted to unmake the sword, but he had things to do, so going out of his way and delaying his mission wasn't going to happen. Especially if he expected to get his hands on upwards of half a dozen other artifacts on par with the Swords.
I have to disagree.We know this to be true -- Lea outright says she couldn't even have picked it up if Harry hadn't made it vulnerable, and Fid outright burns Susan in Death Masks when she tries to pick it up. So apparently, monsters and such simply can't touch the thing if it's not vulnerable.
I do agree that the Sword must first become vulnerable via the Knight misusing it. Harry was a Knight for a few moments, and then violated the Sword. If a Knight was killed and the Sword recovered by an enemy I don't think they could destroy it. It would either be summoned by an Angel or the Sword could protect itself from said villain. So it must first be made vulnerable by the Knight, then after that it can be unmade.
We know this to be true -- Lea outright says she couldn't even have picked it up if Harry hadn't made it vulnerable, and Fid outright burns Susan in Death Masks when she tries to pick it up. So apparently, monsters and such simply can't touch the thing if it's not vulnerable.
Harry was never a Knight, not even for a little while, he did however misuse the Sword of Love when he tried to kill Lea with it. It fell out of his hands and Lea was able to pick it up. Michael said that Holy Swords don't allow themselves to be misused. Since Harry misused it when he tried to kill Lea, he made it vulnerable to being unmade, which almost happened at the party.If the sword does not accept you you can not abuse it, you can not even touch it. Unless it was made vulnerable before.
Harry was never a Knight, not even for a little while
If the sword does not accept you you can not abuse it, you can not even touch it. Unless it was made vulnerable before.
So it can only be made vulnerable by someone accepted by the sword. Someone who was going to act with the sword. A de facto knight.
In that sense Harry was a knight. The sword trusted him to do the right thing and he did not.
Not necessarily, if you go back and read what Michael said when it happened. He said a Holy Sword wouldn't allow itself to be misused. He didn't say anything about a Knight misusing it, Harry's attempt merelyNot merely, this is absolute essential.
made it vulnerable so Lea could pick it up.. This opened the door for her gifting Bianca with it at the party, in turn she wanted to do a human sacrifice with it, no Knights there, the mere act of killing an innocent would have broken it completely.Harry telling himself he is no knight means nothing. It is all about human free willed choice and the sword can give you the opportunity to choose. And with choices actions have more meaning than words.
The Sword of Faith wouldn't let Susan a half/vamp touch it, but Harry, not a Knight, though he received it from from Shiro, handled it, he didn't abuse it, so it wasn't made vulnerable so someone like Susan could touch it.
Harry like Merlin was later entrusted with the Swords. He must have been considered worthy to be so. Unless the rule is any mortal who comes in contact with a Sword can unmake it regardless if they are a Knight or not.
In this instance Harry was entrusted with the Sword, and like Murphy he failed.
Harry telling himself he is no knight means nothing. It is all about human free willed choice and the sword can give you the opportunity to choose. And with choices actions have more meaning than wo
Knighthood is not something bestowed upon you, it is a choice you make. And that is the only rule.No, you've got that a little backwards, the Almighty or one of his Agents have to bestow the Knighthood first... Only then can the potential Knight chose to accept or not accept the job offer for however long... Like Susan, when she touched the Sword of Faith before it totally rejected her, only later in Changes when though Harry she was chosen to a Knight for a night to go and save her daughter did the Sword allow her to make the choice...
And it is not about the final act, the killing of an innocent. Every monster can do that if it is made vulnerable. It is about the first act, making it vulnerable in the first place. No monster can do so.
At the moment you pick up the sword, the sword accepts you and you decide to do something with it you are the knight. Even if only for a few minutes. Even if you are not a perfect knight. Even if you tell yourself you are not.No, Harry kept it on his back on the island even with the idea of trading it for Ivy, but that did not make him a Knight.
Harry is considered worth to be custodian of the Swords, but that in no way makes him a Knight. Murphy was considered to be worthy of being a Knight for one night, refused any offer to be one full time... However that doesn't make her a custodian, as stated by Uriel and Michael, that she took upon herself.That does not mean she wasn't one. She took the responsibility when there was no alternative. That means she was the de facto custodian with all the responsibilities that brings.
You are not taking into account the reaction of the Swords to the person who touches them..On the contrary, that reaction is everything. Does the sword accept you? That is what count, not some angelic appointment because that is rarely available.
In Harry's case, though he has handled two of the three Swords, they have never lighted up to his touch.Lightning up is encouraging but not burning counts for a lot. It means you can try. It is after all your free willed decision.
The Sword of Faith did light up in it's sheath in the presence of the enemy while on his back, but that wasn't a job offer, and Harry didn't take it as such..The sword might have known Harry was not interested.
It did light up a little while later when Murphy touched it, Harry immediately took that as a job offer.. No, you've got that a little backwards, the Almighty or one of his Agents have to bestow the Knighthood first... Only then can the potential Knight chose to accept or not accept the job offer for however long... Like Susan, when she touched the Sword of Faith before it totally rejected her, only later in Changes when though Harry she was chosen to a Knight for a night to go and save her daughter did the Sword allow her to make the choice...There is no reason to believe such a thing. The sword can accept or reject wielders according to its nature. Harry explains this to Susan, she had to act out of love to wield the sword of love.
I believe that is what I said, Harry misusing it made it vulnerable, then Bianca and company could proceed to use it in a sacrifice and unmake it. If it had been stolen from Michael and taken to the party, I doubt that they would have been able to even begin to use it in such a way.No, Harry kept it on his back on the island even with the idea of trading it for Ivy, but that did not make him a Knight.If Harry had taken the sword to fight Nicodemus and the sword had accepted him he would have been a knight, no heavenly appointment needed, just a free willed choice to take the responsibility.