WAG.... Murphy has moved on

[groinkick]

All of this ignores the fact that even before Murphy left her house she lectured Harry as to why she shouldn't use a Holy Sword...  Yes, it worked for C.I. but she didn't like being a sock puppet for an archangel

I don't remember a lot of stuff from the books.  Could you show where she says this? 

She didn't believe that any of them deserved such a chance, they only deserved execution, thud her carrying a Sword thus put it at risk  for being broken...

After removing the Coin Nicodemus ordered the execution of the man she loves.  I'd hardly say that she believes they deserve execution if they are actually seeking redemption, which Nicodemus was clearly not doing.  Murphy is not a blood thirsty monster.  If Nic's surrender hand been genuine, she'd have accepted it.  She only raised the Sword to kill him after he ordered the murder of her friend.  Nicodemus was protected because he removed the Coin, but he was not innocent, nor was he seeking redemption.

[Mr. Death]

Protected against bullets or not, the gun was not in Murphy's hand and she only had leverage on Nicodemus because both her hands are on the Sword. As we see immediately afterward, Nicodemus is extremely capable in hand-to-hand and Murphy adjusting her grip on the sword and reaching for her gun would have been all the opening he'd need to disarm her.

And Mira, I really don't know what you're trying to argue by restating how the Swords work. We already know all that. We already clearly understand the parameters of using the Sword. I should think that was obvious from the bit of my post you quoted, so I really don't get why you feel the need to try and tell me something I obviously already know.

I don't remember a lot of stuff from the books.  Could you show where she says this? 

After removing the Coin Nicodemus ordered the execution of the man she loves.  I'd hardly say that she believes they deserve execution if they are actually seeking redemption, which Nicodemus was clearly not doing.  Murphy is not a blood thirsty monster.  If Nic's surrender hand been genuine, she'd have accepted it.  She only raised the Sword to kill him after he ordered the murder of her friend.  Nicodemus was protected because he removed the Coin, but he was not innocent, nor was he seeking redemption.

Ditto. Also, Mira, please quote the bit where she says none of them deserve a chance and they all deserve execution.

Chapter and page number, please, so we can all verify it.

[forumghost]

She doesn't, exactly. What she says is that she want's no part in helping them. She goes over this when explaining to Harry why she won't take up the Sword:

“And that’s why I’m not carrying one. I don’t want to save those animals, Harry."

[Mr. Death]

She doesn't, exactly. What she says is that she want's no part in helping them. She goes over this when explaining to Harry why she won't take up the Sword:

“And that’s why I’m not carrying one. I don’t want to save those animals, Harry."

That's exactly my point.

Nowhere in the book does Murphy say the things Mira keeps insisting she feels. Nowhere in the book does she say anything like, "They all deserve to be executed" or "I don't believe in redemption."

[forumghost]

I mean yeah, but I see why someone could read it that way. It's very much a blanket "fuck those guys" kind of statement- she's saying that she doesn't have it in her to even try and turn them around (not that I can blame her, I'd do the same).

Which is imo quite in keeping with Karrin's character. She doesn't save badguys from themselves, she stops them. Like I always put it: there's a reason that Harry saw her as an avenging angel and not a guardian angel.

[Mr. Death]

I mean yeah, but I see why someone could read it that way. It's very much a blanket "fuck those guys" kind of statement- she's saying that she doesn't have it in her to even try and turn them around (not that I can blame her, I'd do the same).

Which is imo quite in keeping with Karrin's character. She doesn't save badguys from themselves, she stops them. Like I always put it: there's a reason that Harry saw her as an avenging angel and not a guardian angel.

Here's the thing, though.

Murphy in the same conversation says she is holding onto the Swords and will pass them on to people who are willing to do that. So she explicitly acknowledges that someone should be willing to offer them redemption. She, personally, is just not the one to do it.

So there is a very important difference between, "They don't deserve redemption," and "I don't want to offer them redemption, so I will give the Sword to someone who does."

She's saying pretty clearly, "I don't want to do this," not "Nobody should do this" or "They don't deserve the chance."

[huangjimmy108]

All of this ignores the fact that even before Murphy left her house she lectured Harry as to why she shouldn't use a Holy Sword...  Yes, it worked for C.I. but she didn't like being a sock puppet for an archangel, so she didn't want to be a Knight on a regular basis...  Most importantly she didn't believe in the rules that are set down for the Knights, i.e. she doesn't believe in the redemption clause of the rules.  That is, if the Denarian surrendered and willingly gave up the coin he or she would be let go to seek their own redemption.   She didn't believe that any of them deserved such a chance, they only deserved execution, thud her carrying a Sword thus put it at risk  for being broken... Then she ignored her own advice, Nic had nothing to do with that...  Yes, he played her beautifully and played off her emotions to achieve his goal of getting the Sword broken... It wouldn't have happened if she had left the Sword at home and I don't know, just shot him in the head to save Harry...

Mira. Your argument is disjointed.

There are 2 different issues presented here.

If we are talking about qualifications to be a KoTC, then beyond doubt Murphy has fail. But just because Murphy has fail as a KoTC, that does not mean that her choice to pick up fid at the time does not saved Harry's life.

The 2 ideas cannot be mixed up together.

It does not negate the fact that there is no good options available and whatever path being chosen a price must be payed. Either Harry, Butters or Murphy has to die, or as what Murphy did, Fid is broken and Michael offer himself in exchange for Harry's life. Something has to give, because Harry decided to help Butters out and get caught in the action by Nick.

If Nick truly cannot kill Harry, Harry does not need to be so hesitant. He can just bring Butters to the carpenters home and then taunt Nicodemous: "You can't kill me!!!!" when he get surrounded by Nick and the Genoskwa. If there truly no danger, and there is truly no price need to be paid, why so much hassle? Unless Harry is an idiot and simply does not understand the rules.
 

It does not change the fact that Murphy proven herself to be unsuited for KoTC duty however. No matter how nescesary her choice is, When push came to shove, Murphy sacrifice fid for Harry's safety. It is kind of sacrificing public interest for personal interest. It is almost like Harry's attitude to let the world burn as long as he can save little Maggi. For a KoTC, such an attitude is not acceptable.

This does not however means that her actions and choices has no value. Murphy did save Harry by wielding fid, even if it cause the holy sword to be broken.

Again, mixing up the 2 issues is misleading. Murphy fail as a Knight, but she definitely does not fail as a person and as a woman.

[Mira]

After removing the Coin Nicodemus ordered the execution of the man she loves.  I'd hardly say that she believes they deserve execution if they are actually seeking redemption, which Nicodemus was clearly not doing.  Murphy is not a blood thirsty monster.  If Nic's surrender hand been genuine, she'd have accepted it.  She only raised the Sword to kill him after he ordered the murder of her friend.  Nicodemus was protected because he removed the Coin, but he was not innocent, nor was he seeking redemption.

Whether or not it was sincere isn't the point, Cassius's surrender wasn't sincere either, yet Michael and Sanya had to accept it, those are the rules, it isn't their place to judge...  Didn't say Murphy was a blood thirsty monster, however she is a cop, seen a lot of bad people in her day and has an opinion of what should happen to them, she judged Nic and decided his sentence. That was her fuck up, regardless of her motives..

If we are talking about qualifications to be a KoTC, then beyond doubt Murphy has fail. But just because Murphy has fail as a KoTC, that does not mean that her choice to pick up fid at the time does not saved Harry's life.

The 2 ideas cannot be mixed up together.

Yes, they can, because the rules are for the Sword, why they were made, doesn't matter if she was a Knight at the time or not..  She broke the rule that governs the Sword... As to saving Harry's life, it was a ploy on Nic's part to get Murphy to attack then he skillfully pissed her off enough to try and execute him with the Sword after he surrendered..  If Harry's death was what he really wanted, his skull could have been crushed in a nano second, before Murphy even got the Sword pulled out.. Or after Nic succeeded in goading her to break the Sword, he could have singled Gen to crush Harry's skull...   So no, her bringing the Sword along only put the Sword in danger, regardless of her motives...

It does not negate the fact that there is no good options available and whatever path being chosen a price must be payed. Either Harry, Butters or Murphy has to die, or as what Murphy did, Fid is broken and Michael offer himself in exchange for Harry's life. Something has to give, because Harry decided to help Butters out and get caught in the action by Nick.

Neither here nor there,  given her feelings about the rules governing the Holy Swords, and she is very eloquent on that point to Harry knowing full well that breaking those rules could break one, she shouldn't have brought it.  She could have been just as effective with her gun, expert marksmen that she is and quick too... Talk about saving Harry's life, she could have put a bullet between Gen's eyes in a twinkle, more effective in saving Harry than attacking Nic with a Sword.. Nic the button pusher was effective in doing it on all levels, he played everyone like a harp on that day...  Only factor he didn't count on was Michael stepping up and Uriel putting his Grace on the line, that is what saved the day...

[Arjan]

Mira. Your argument is disjointed.

There are 2 different issues presented here.

If we are talking about qualifications to be a KoTC, then beyond doubt Murphy has fail. But just because Murphy has fail as a KoTC, that does not mean that her choice to pick up fid at the time does not saved Harry's life.

The 2 ideas cannot be mixed up together.

It does not negate the fact that there is no good options available and whatever path being chosen a price must be payed. Either Harry, Butters or Murphy has to die, or as what Murphy did, Fid is broken and Michael offer himself in exchange for Harry's life. Something has to give, because Harry decided to help Butters out and get caught in the action by Nick.

Basically a true knight would have failed here.

If Nick truly cannot kill Harry, Harry does not need to be so hesitant. He can just bring Butters to the carpenters home and then taunt Nicodemous: "You can't kill me!!!!" when he get surrounded by Nick and the Genoskwa. If there truly no danger, and there is truly no price need to be paid, why so much hassle? Unless Harry is an idiot and simply does not understand the rules.

Of course that is exactly what Nicodemus wants you to believe. It would make Harry less effective and increase Murphy’s suffering.

It does not change the fact that Murphy proven herself to be unsuited for KoTC duty however. No matter how nescesary her choice is, When push came to shove, Murphy sacrifice fid for Harry's safety. It is kind of sacrificing public interest for personal interest. It is almost like Harry's attitude to let the world burn as long as he can save little Maggi. For a KoTC, such an attitude is not acceptable.

Except being a human in this case was more important than being a knight. It is not that Karen let the whole world burn. In the end breaking find was repairable.

Most people would have failed as a knight, some people would have failed as a human being. Some of them would have given up the sword immediately afterwards because the sword is not just something wonderful, it is also a burden that sometimes unrealistic demands. Sacrifice is part of it and that includes self sacrifice.

This does not however means that her actions and choices has no value. Murphy did save Harry by wielding fid, even if it cause the holy sword to be broken.

Again, mixing up the 2 issues is misleading. Murphy fail as a Knight, but she definitely does not fail as a person and as a woman.

And then you have to ask yourself what is more important. Failing as a knight or failing as a human being by not even trying?

[groinkick]

Actually this brings up an interesting question.  Was Anduriel listening in on Harry, and Murphy's conversation when she stated that she didn't want to help the Fallen? 

[Arjan]

Actually this brings up an interesting question.  Was Anduriel listening in on Harry, and Murphy's conversation when she stated that she didn't want to help the Fallen?

Of course he was. Nicodemus is not stupid but he is not as smart as he wants people to believe, he is just well informed. when that is out of the picture he does make mistakes and most of those follow out of the nature of the fallen what has become his nature, he lies and betrays more than necessary which makes him predictable in that respect.

if he says something just assume he is lying in some way, you are almost always right with the important things.

[Arjan]

Whether or not it was sincere isn't the point, Cassius's surrender wasn't sincere either, yet Michael and Sanya had to accept it, those are the rules, it isn't their place to judge...  Didn't say Murphy was a blood thirsty monster, however she is a cop, seen a lot of bad people in her day and has an opinion of what should happen to them, she judged Nic and decided his sentence. That was her fuck up, regardless of her motives..

Maybe not important for being a knight but very important for being a human. And mark that when Cassius surrendered the knights worked around that, they did not prevent Harry from doing what he did.

Yes, they can, because the rules are for the Sword, why they were made, doesn't matter if she was a Knight at the time or not..  She broke the rule that governs the Sword... As to saving Harry's life, it was a ploy on Nic's part to get Murphy to attack then he skillfully pissed her off enough to try and execute him with the Sword after he surrendered..  If Harry's death was what he really wanted, his skull could have been crushed in a nano second, before Murphy even got the Sword pulled out.. Or after Nic succeeded in goading her to break the Sword, he could have singled Gen to crush Harry's skull...   So no, her bringing the Sword along only put the Sword in danger, regardless of her motives...Neither here nor there,  given her feelings about the rules governing the Holy Swords, and she is very eloquent on that point to Harry knowing full well that breaking those rules could break one, she shouldn't have brought it.  She could have been just as effective with her gun, expert marksmen that she is and quick too... Talk about saving Harry's life, she could have put a bullet between Gen's eyes in a twinkle, more effective in saving Harry than attacking Nic with a Sword..

Nicodemus knows how to handle guns, he would have been dead already if not. It is just not a realistic option.

Nic the button pusher was effective in doing it on all levels, he played everyone like a harp on that day...  Only factor he didn't count on was Michael stepping up and Uriel putting his Grace on the line, that is what saved the day...

Again the whole theory just is based on believing Nicodemus when he tells Harry how smart he is. Against all other evidence brought up. This idea is combined with the idea that there must have been a way to save the sword and everyone else by being a good knight. The first point is against everything we know about Nicodemus and the second point is against everything we know about the dresdenverse where actions have consequences. Butters choices had consequences and Karen's choices narrowed them down.

The swords ask more from you than you can realistically ask from a human being, that is their nature and Jim showed that a few times but nowhere more explicit than here. He bragged about that before the release of Skin Game if I remember correctly. Knights do die and swords get broken. The knights sometimes die because they were good knights, the swords sometimes broke because they were good humans.

Would you let the world burn to save a sword? 

[forumghost]

Actually this brings up an interesting question.  Was Anduriel listening in on Harry, and Murphy's conversation when she stated that she didn't want to help the Fallen? 

Of course he was. He was probably watching Harry from the moment he left Mab's side.

Heck, that conversation was probably what inspired Nick to try and break the Sword in the first place.

[huangjimmy108]

Basically a true knight would have failed here. Of course that is exactly what Nicodemus wants you to believe. It would make Harry less effective and increase Murphy’s suffering. Except being a human in this case was more important than being a knight. It is not that Karen let the whole world burn. In the end breaking find was repairable.

Most people would have failed as a knight, some people would have failed as a human being. Some of them would have given up the sword immediately afterwards because the sword is not just something wonderful, it is also a burden that sometimes unrealistic demands. Sacrifice is part of it and that includes self sacrifice.And then you have to ask yourself what is more important. Failing as a knight or failing as a human being by not even trying?

In Murphy's shoe, the best I could think of to get out of the predicament presented in skin game is for Murphy to resolutely  put pressure on Nicodemous. If the Genoskwa truly kills Harry, I am certain that fid can be freely wielded to cut off Nick's head.

If Murphy is resolute enough and Nick is convinced of her resolution, Between his own life and taking revenge on Harry, I have about 70% confidence that Nick will back off. However, if Murphy make this choice, I will be personally disappointed in her role as Harry's love interest. It is a bit too cold hearted for my taste.

Furthermore, if Murphy is indeed that resolute, Nicodemous will just let Harry go and then lodge a complaint to Mab. Harry getting caught red handed while helping Butters is already a violation of Mab's given word. Murphy, as Harry's + 1, attacking and threatening Nico is another violation. Mab will be put in a bind and Harry will definitely suffer the consequences. Even if Harry does not die, he will at least shed 3 layers of skin from this deboccle. If only the laws of TWG is the only thing at play, but this is not the case, the laws of the fae world is involve in the matter and as we seen in book 3, TWG cannot interfere when the fae is within their rights.

Not to mention that this matter involves 5 great artifact in Hades's vault. Mab being put in a bind may result in these artifacts falling into Nick's hands, and that will be a far greater disaster then just one holy sword being broken.

Murphy and Michael, with Uriel's help,  ended the matter cleanly on the spot. It eliminates all other possible complications. If the matter can be so easily shrug off by Harry saying" "You can't kill me!". Not just Harry will end up looking stupid, even Uriel is that much of a joke putting his entire grace at risk for mere BS from Nick.

Heck, if not for WoJ confirming that TWG cannot interfere with a mortal's free will, I almost convinced that the entire thing is a setup by the Almighty himself. The sword is allowed to idle around doing nothing, in the custody of Murphy who clearly stated her desire not to be come a knight. Meanwhile the world is going worse by the day. And it happens that this unworthy person is there just so to break a sword that a true knight definitely cannot broken, which resulted in saving a very powerful and very important fulcrum of a mortal wizard, which also prepare the sword into a lightsaber from which suited the future true knight far better. It is almost look like TWG allow Murphy to keep fid just so she can break it in the proper time and place.

If there is any power who could craft such a complicated setup without actually interfering with a mortal's free will, TWG will be that power. It will also explain why the power of Heaven allow the holy swords to stay idle for so long. I mean, there is about 7 billion people out there. Even if people like Michael is as rare as a Unicorn horn and phoenix feather, it is unlikely that Heaven can't arrange and find 2 such people to wield them, corruption in the church notwithstanding.

[raidem]

I very much like your analysis, huangjimmy.