The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Turncoat

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Tinfoil hat:

--- Quote from: Talby16 on May 28, 2025, 02:09:14 AM ---In Changes, Carlos tried to ask Harry what was going on when he left the confrontation with the Duchess, but Harry was in no shape to respond and Molly told Carlos that they would be in touch. Luccio told Harry that she would be the eyes and ears in headquarters and by implication organizing help there. However, before any the plan was formulated Carlos and several other wardens (except Chandler) were arrested and thus unable to help Harry in the final battle.

After Changes, Harry was dead for awhile and then in PT in the Winter Court and thus not able to be contacted. When his PT was done he was thrown right into the events of Cold Days and things moved way to quick for any type of contact to exist between them. After Cold Days, Harry had to stay on the island due to the parasite. He stayed there until the events of Skin Game started. Mab tells Harry that she specifically prevented contact between Harry and his friends and altered his messages going out in order to pressure him into backing her play in Skin Game. Once Harry got off the island, he could have taken the time to reach out to Carlos, but once again he is in the thick of Big Bad Events and rekindling communication was low on the priority list. After Skin Game is really the first time that Carlos and Harry have a chance to reconnect. Molly and Carlos' interaction takes place sometime between Cold Days and Skin Game and the end result is Carlos severely injured and most likely out of commission for a good long while since In Peace Talks he is still showing some of the effects from his injury from Molly. Recuperating in the hospital would make reaching out to Harry hard especially given that it was Harry's apprentice who did the injuring. It was the Winter Lady who injured Carlos, do you think he is going to reach out to the Winter Knight when he is still suffering from those injuries or is he going to wait until he can face Harry on his own two feet again?

To summarize, based on my understanding of the timeline, I don't think it would have been easy for Harry and Carlos to reconnect after their last meeting in Changes. Once again, from Carlos' point of view, Harry was at the least a colleague if not some degree of friend. Harry killed the Red Court, died, went to work for Mab, and did two major events all without talking to the council or touching base with the wizards who were his colleagues. I can see how Carlos might think that Harry has gone over to the dark side or at least is no longer on the good side.

--- End quote ---
Does Carlos even know why Molly attacked him. Its possible that the only explanation he was given is that Winter are masochist and its how they get off. Carlos has no idea why Molly attacked him, for all he knows Harry and Molly are gone only  things that look like them and sound like them remain.
Ps for all the Carlos hate ,Harry is also to blame.
Think about it.
Harry killed the entire Red court alone. Does the Council's general population know what happened. Im sure the senior members know he had help, but what about the  wardens including Carlos , the average WC member Joe and Jane  Everywizard. For all they know Harry made some dark deal to kill them all. What price or deal did he make to be able to do that?
Afterwards he died as in ded. At least as far as they know.
Harry died and came back. Who was the last wizard to do that.
Wait hes back and he just killed the Winter lady and is the new winter knight. His apprentice is the new winter lady. Hold on the summer lady is also died and we have a new summer lady. Dresden was also involved.
Ps someone just robbed hell ( hades i know), and Nicodemus is now on the run, Dresden was involved. He was part of Nic's crew but he suffered no consequences. Probably framed Nic and got away with it.

Im saying Harry looks shady as hell. Did Harry even try to touch base with his allies. To tell them his back and ok. No .

Talby16:

--- Quote from: Tinfoil hat on May 28, 2025, 06:26:01 AM ---Does Carlos even know why Molly attacked him. Its possible that the only explanation he was given is that Winter are masochist and its how they get off. Carlos has no idea why Molly attacked him, for all he knows Harry and Molly are gone only  things that look like them and sound like them remain.
Ps for all the Carlos hate ,Harry is also to blame.
Think about it.
Harry killed the entire Red court alone. Does the Council's general population know what happened. Im sure the senior members know he had help, but what about the  wardens including Carlos , the average WC member Joe and Jane  Everywizard. For all they know Harry made some dark deal to kill them all. What price or deal did he make to be able to do that?
Afterwards he died as in ded. At least as far as they know.
Harry died and came back. Who was the last wizard to do that.
Wait hes back and he just killed the Winter lady and is the new winter knight. His apprentice is the new winter lady. Hold on the summer lady is also died and we have a new summer lady. Dresden was also involved.
Ps someone just robbed hell ( hades i know), and Nicodemus is now on the run, Dresden was involved. He was part of Nic's crew but he suffered no consequences. Probably framed Nic and got away with it.

Im saying Harry looks shady as hell. Did Harry even try to touch base with his allies. To tell them his back and ok. No .

--- End quote ---

Exactly. We know Harry motives because we are in his head. However, from the outside, most of his actions since Changes can be painted in a very negative light with very little effort. Natural paranoia would make you think that Harry has made some dark deals and is going down a slippery slope. Harry has done nothing to try and change that perspective (granted you can make the argument that he has not had time/opportunity since Changes). Carlos' attitude during Peace Talks makes more sense when looking at the whole picture. He tried to reach out to Harry, put him on the security team, and bring him back into the White Council fold. He might have been trying to help Harry. What did Harry do? He kept secrets, attacked the Fae violinist in a way that even briefly shocked Molly, seemed to "associate" too closely with the White Court, and pulled a trick on Carlos. Its easy to see how Carlos is upset at the end of Battle Ground.

Mira:

--- Quote ---Exactly. We know Harry motives because we are in his head. However, from the outside, most of his actions since Changes can be painted in a very negative light with very little effort. Natural paranoia would make you think that Harry has made some dark deals and is going down a slippery slope. Harry has done nothing to try and change that perspective (granted you can make the argument that he has not had time/opportunity since Changes). Carlos' attitude during Peace Talks makes more sense when looking at the whole picture. He tried to reach out to Harry, put him on the security team, and bring him back into the White Council fold. He might have been trying to help Harry. What did Harry do? He kept secrets, attacked the Fae violinist in a way that even briefly shocked Molly, seemed to "associate" too closely with the White Court, and pulled a trick on Carlos. Its easy to see how Carlos is upset at the end of Battle Ground.
--- End quote ---

At the end though, doesn't explain him putting that tracking device on Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks.  That motivated Harry who felt betrayed to pull the trick on Carlos.  We also do not really know what happened between them between Changes and Peace Talks.  We know what happened to Carlos with Molly, apparently Harry knew Carlos had gotten injured, but not how it happened, Molly apparently didn't tell him either.  Harry was "dead" for a while during Ghost Story.. Not much action between them in Cold Days, though you'd think Rashid vouching for Harry and doing the paperwork would put him say a lot.  Then Harry was confined to the island for a year before Skin Game..   The White Court isn't exactly the enemy either, Lara did her bit in the battle to save Chicago.

Talby16:

--- Quote from: Mira on May 28, 2025, 01:32:26 PM ---At the end though, doesn't explain him putting that tracking device on Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks.  That motivated Harry who felt betrayed to pull the trick on Carlos.

--- End quote ---

I would contend it does explain it. In short, Carlos and his team are not sure where Harry's loyalty lies. They are not sure if they can trust him. They look at everything that happened from Changes onwards and listen to the Council distortion of Harry's actions and wonder if Harry is still Harry. They tracked him to see what he was doing and who he was associating with. In addition, Carlos is the head of the security team for the peace talks. It is his job to look for threats to the wizard delegation and the talks as a whole. You could argue he was doing his job checking into Harry.

That being said, Harry has a right to feel upset about their actions. The tracking was borderline shady and the spell to see if Harry had sex was borderline unethical. They could have just asked him, but could they have trusted his answer? Harry also could have cleared everything up by explaining that he was with his girlfriend, but he was too hurt and angry to cooperate.


--- Quote from: Mira on May 28, 2025, 01:32:26 PM ---The White Court isn't exactly the enemy either, Lara did her bit in the battle to save Chicago.

--- End quote ---

The White Court is a fellow signatory under the accords. Lara did her part as she was required to as a member of the accords. That doesn't mean she is nice or good. You can be a fellow signatory and still be an enemy. All the accords are is an agreement of a pattern of conduct and a governance of how the signatories relate to each other. Both the Red Court and Ghouls are signatories and yet have both been enemies of the White Council. Most wizards are very leery of vampires because of their ability to enthrall. An enthralled wizard could have horrible outcomes. That is partly why Carlos and company investigate Harry, to see if Lara had her psychic hooks in him.

Mira:

--- Quote ---I would contend it does explain it. In short, Carlos and his team are not sure where Harry's loyalty lies. They are not sure if they can trust him. They look at everything that happened from Changes onwards and listen to the Council distortion of Harry's actions and wonder if Harry is still Harry. They tracked him to see what he was doing and who he was associating with. In addition, Carlos is the head of the security team for the peace talks. It is his job to look for threats to the wizard delegation and the talks as a whole. You could argue he was doing his job checking into Harry.

--- End quote ---

Yet in Turn Coat, who was it that Harry stood up for?  A Warden.  We know that Luccio was in extensive rehab because of the Peabody ink.  Were the younger Wardens as well?  Was Carlos?  Yet Carlos made Harry part of the security team.. In addition secretly putting that tracking device on him, setting him up..  If Carlos really suspected Harry he did a piss poor job of protecting the participants in it didn't he?  I mean Harry was able to spring Thomas, and made Carlos look like a fool at the conference before all hell broke loose.  No, something else is going on here, it wasn't until the last minute that Harry realized that Justine wasn't what she appeared to be..  The Council vote again reeks of set up, along with trumped up charges yet here is Carlos playing the hard assed cop all of a sudden? 


--- Quote ---The White Court is a fellow signatory under the accords. Lara did her part as she was required to as a member of the accords. That doesn't mean she is nice or good. You can be a fellow signatory and still be an enemy. All the accords are is an agreement of a pattern of conduct and a governance of how the signatories relate to each other. Both the Red Court and Ghouls are signatories and yet have both been enemies of the White Council. Most wizards are very leery of vampires because of their ability to enthrall. An enthralled wizard could have horrible outcomes. That is partly why Carlos and company investigate Harry, to see if Lara had her psychic hooks in him.

--- End quote ---

There are still rules that those who sign the treaty must abide by, the White Court has done that.. No, Carlos jumped to conclusions on the road back from the visit from the Raith estate... Again set up, Chandler knew it and that was the look he gave Harry... Now, either Chandler will turn out to be the actual plant here influencing Harry to get his back up, or there is corruption and he was trying to warn Harry.. Based on the BS charges at the end of Battle Ground, Chandler was right.

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