The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

The Soul Gaze in Blood Rites, Something Margaret Said to Harry About Justine..

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Mira:

--- Quote ---We already can be pretty sure that the demon-parasites don't totally dominate their human hosts, because we've seen what that looks like when it does happen, the 'silver eyes' state.  Remember Thomas in Turn Coat, when he was about to attack Molly:  he wasn't acting like Thomas, he wasn't even acting like a sapient being.  It was more like an animal.

--- End quote ---

That could be said of the Red Court Vampires as well, Bianca could act very civilized, until she got hungry or decided to attack.  The silver eyes signaling that the demon needs to feed to survive or is about to attack, what control did the host have over that? None, because the demon took over.  Also Thomas has no problem calling on the demon when he needs to fight, to help him. Thomas tried to control his demon and nearly starved to death..  Then there is the other aspect that Thomas confesses to Harry after the Skin Walker got to him, he enjoyed killing.  In short Thomas may have some control but his life depends on the demon, and the demon depends on him, neither can live without the other at this point.  In any contest between host and this parasite, the parasite always wins.. No, free will for Thomas or any other White Court vampire is an illusion.

--- Quote ---I'm not at all sure how much actual independent intelligence the White Court demons possess.  When they're in control, they seem to act primarily on predatory instinct.  It might have the same sort of awareness that a hungry bear or tiger has, not purely mindless but not really thinking in any abstract or sophisticated way, either.  Thomas' demon might perceive that he drew spiritual support from his relationship with Justine, but I'm not sure it has any grasp of why or what that means.

--- End quote ---
 
Yeah, but that is a bit fuzzy as well, I think it is very complicated.  You have the Hunger demon, in order to survive it needs to eat, so as you say acts like a tiger or bear.  However even tigers and bears have hunting strategies that are driven by their hunger, otherwise they starve.  The Hunger demon drives it's human host to stalk (odd phrase I know since they feed on the pleasure emotion of others) a victim and then feed upon it. In turn the host get longer life, super human strength etc, the host has figured out, and I imagine the demon as well, that they can't go around feeding until death it's prey and survive in the modern world.  So it has made adjustments, but that doesn't make it civilized or different other vampires.

--- Quote ---Remember, too, what Thomas told Harry:  the demon tries to feed at any time when there is flesh-to-flesh contact with another human.  Most of the time, the human host can suppress it, which is why a White Court vampire can shake someone's hand or something without feeding.  They only go full silver eyes if they go too long without feeding.

--- End quote ---

Same could be said for Black Court or Red Court vampires as well..

--- Quote ---Thomas mentioned that Madeline had never trained herself to suppress the reflex, but he was kind of contemptuous about it, apparently most of the WC do manage to control it most of the time.

--- End quote ---

Perhaps because Madeline fed off different emotions than Thomas did.  If I remember correctly she fed off of fear and terror, the more she freaked out her prey the more well fed she became.  Where as Thomas fed off of sensual and sexual pleasure, also he and Lara both gave out seductive vibes to a would be victim.. Almost all their victims were willing victims. 

vincentric:

--- Quote from: Mira on November 05, 2024, 12:27:27 PM ---That could be said of the Red Court Vampires as well, Bianca could act very civilized, until she got hungry or decided to attack.  The silver eyes signaling that the demon needs to feed to survive or is about to attack, what control did the host have over that? None, because the demon took over.  Also Thomas has no problem calling on the demon when he needs to fight, to help him. Thomas tried to control his demon and nearly starved to death..  Then there is the other aspect that Thomas confesses to Harry after the Skin Walker got to him, he enjoyed killing.  In short Thomas may have some control but his life depends on the demon, and the demon depends on him, neither can live without the other at this point.  In any contest between host and this parasite, the parasite always wins.. No, free will for Thomas or any other White Court vampire is an illusion. 

--- End quote ---

The only time the Red Court is comparable to the White Court is when they are not fully turned like Susan, Martin and others in the Fellowship of St. Giles. Susan demonstrated strength, speed, stamina and regenerative powers on par with Thomas that were fueled by blood and not lust. Reds don't become true monsters until after their first kill. They can then look and act human, but their humanity is gone.

Whites remain human throughout their lives but have superhuman abilities. But as long as they have made some effort in their early lives or are not pushed to their physical limits, they retain control of their demon. Both Thomas and Lara have been talked out of their silver eyed states. They enjoy their kills on a visceral level but are capable of feeling regret and guilt afterwards. If Lara couldn't control her daemon, she couldn't have given Thomas energy on the ride to Demonreach. If they didn't have free will. Uriel wouldn't have sympathy for them. Whites have free will but most of them accept or embrace being monsters, they just control their rampages better than most because they don't actually have to kill.

Mira:

--- Quote ---The only time the Red Court is comparable to the White Court is when they are not fully turned like Susan, Martin and others in the Fellowship of St. Giles. Susan demonstrated strength, speed, stamina and regenerative powers on par with Thomas that were fueled by blood and not lust. Reds don't become true monsters until after their first kill. They can then look and act human, but their humanity is gone.
--- End quote ---

This is the definition of humanity;


--- Quote ---The word humanity is from the Latin humanitas for "human nature, kindness.” Humanity includes all the humans, but it can also refer to the kind feelings humans often have for each other.
--- End quote ---

Thomas might exhibit it to some extent, but the word doesn't fit most White Court Vamps.  Lara doesn't do anything out of kindness.


--- Quote --- They enjoy their kills on a visceral level but are capable of feeling regret and guilt afterwards.
--- End quote ---

Thomas didn't feel any guilt about killing those girls, Lara has never felt any guilt.


--- Quote ---If they didn't have free will. Uriel wouldn't have sympathy for them. Whites have free will but most of them accept or embrace being monsters, they just control their rampages better than most because they don't actually have to kill.
--- End quote ---

They don't have free will once the Hunger Demon gets hold, for that reason Uriel would feel sympathy..

KurtinStGeorge:

--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on November 05, 2024, 05:32:15 AM ---I'm not at all sure how much actual independent intelligence the White Court demons possess.  When they're in control, they seem to act primarily on predatory instinct.  It might have the same sort of awareness that a hungry bear or tiger has, not purely mindless but not really thinking in any abstract or sophisticated way, either.  Thomas' demon might perceive that he drew spiritual support from his relationship with Justine, but I'm not sure it has any grasp of why or what that means.

Remember, too, what Thomas told Harry:  the demon tries to feed at any time when there is flesh-to-flesh contact with another human.  Most of the time, the human host can suppress it, which is why a White Court vampire can shake someone's hand or something without feeding.  They only go full silver eyes if they go too long without feeding.

Thomas mentioned that Madeline had never trained herself to suppress the reflex, but he was kind of contemptuous about it, apparently most of the WC do manage to control it most of the time.

That said, I agree with Mira that there is almost surely an Outsider connection of some kind with the parasites.  It's interesting that Thomas and Lara both use 'empty night' as a swear phrase.

--- End quote ---

How intelligent the White Court demons might be is difficult to determine.  I suspect there is more intelligence than just that of an animal while in hunting mode.  The clue that tells me this is in the soulgaze that Harry shared with Thomas.

The Hunger hissed more words at Thomas. "What is it saying?" I asked.

"It's telling him to give up. That there's no point in fighting anymore. That it will never leave him in peace."

Perhaps the demon wasn't using actual words.  That could be Harry's projection of what was happening.  Even if the demon was only communicating with unspoken ideas and images, that shows a degree of intelligence a bit above being a shark or polar bear on the hunt.


--- Quote from: Mira on November 06, 2024, 11:05:15 AM ---They don't have free will once the Hunger Demon gets hold, for that reason Uriel would feel sympathy..

--- End quote ---

I don't think this is true, otherwise how did Lara stop herself twice; once while in the Raith Deeps and a second time after Harry blasted both of them out of the Deeps, when she would have been hungry after using so much energy.  Lara has learned to master her hunger when she needs to do so or sees a valid reason to do so.  The valid reason was keeping her promise to Harry and honoring his guest rights.  Of course, if Lara had been starving she probably would not have been able to hold back.

This means Lara; and by extension, all White Court vampires have free will, unless they are pushed to extremis.  Though their demon exerts constant pressure on them, it can be controlled, at least to a degree.  This is why Uriel feels sympathy for the members of the White Court.  Their free will to make a better choice isn't eliminated but is severely constrained and they are always being pushed to just give in and go the other way.

Mira:

--- Quote ---How intelligent the White Court demons might be is difficult to determine.  I suspect there is more intelligence than just that of an animal while in hunting mode.  The clue that tells me this is in the soulgaze that Harry shared with Thomas.

--- End quote ---

A lot about the Hunger Demon and it's hold on it's host was revealed in that soul gaze.  The other side of the coin is the picture of a human host, Thomas,  that we see fighting the Demon's will.  The Thomas of the soul gaze isn't the handsome strong man that Harry knows, but this; Page 169 of Blood Rites

--- Quote ---I drew closer.  My steps echoed among the pillars.  I drew closer to the young man and peered at him. It was Thomas.  Not Thomas as I had seen him with my own eyes, but Thomas none the less.  This version of him was not deadly beautiful.  His face seemed a little more plain.  He looked like he might have been a little nearsighted.  His expression strained with pain, and his shoulders and back were thick with tension.
--- End quote ---

Without the Hunger Demon Thomas is a very ordinary man, with very human flaws including perhaps some nearsightedness. On the other side of that mirror is the Hunger Demon, described as roughly the size of Thomas, humanoid, it's hide shinning with a silver luminous silver glow. Then in the next line is the important bit, " It crouched , hunched and grotesque, though at the same time there was an eerie beauty about the thing.

Notice Thomas and the Demon are fighting through a mirror, not a window..  One reflects the other and what we see in that reflection is the opposite of reality.  Which is the real Thomas?  The rather plain ordinary man with human frailties, or the beautiful monster?  In my opinion this is the source of the addiction, at some point during that first fatal feeding, the frail vanilla human who is predisposed to addiction makes a Faustian bargain with the Hunger Demon, beauty, strength, and long life in exchange for the emotions that feed the Demon.  Eventually the human becomes the Demon and accepts it's fate, Lara has for example.  Thomas is Margaret's son, he hasn't completely given up the fight, but he is tired. 

This is where Margaret says the important bit about Justine.  That she is dead, that "It" i.e. the Hunger Demon knows that, and knows her love is the source of Thomas' resistance to it.  Justine is dead, and eventually Thomas will become exhausted and the Demon will win. The process gets accelerated later in Turn Coat by the Skin Walker and by the time we hit Peace Talks it is complete.  Now tin hat time, the Hunger Demon/ Nemesis created an illusion of Justine, then used Thomas for it's purposes. Once it was accomplished,  the Hunger Demon/Nemesis let Thomas know Justine was dead, I believe that is what injured Thomas was mumbling to Harry. The realization that Justine is really dead is what is killing Thomas.. The Hunger Demon/Nemesis has won and has moved on, without the presence of either the love from Justine or the Hunger Demon, Thomas is dying. 

--- Quote ---Perhaps the demon wasn't using actual words.  That could be Harry's projection of what was happening.  Even if the demon was only communicating with unspoken ideas and images, that shows a degree of intelligence a bit above being a shark or polar bear on the hunt.
--- End quote ---

A shark or polar bear are a lot smarter than you think, they carefully select their prey for example.


--- Quote ---I don't think this is true, otherwise how did Lara stop herself twice; once while in the Raith Deeps and a second time after Harry blasted both of them out of the Deeps, when she would have been hungry after using so much energy.  Lara has learned to master her hunger when she needs to do so or sees a valid reason to do so.  The valid reason was keeping her promise to Harry and honoring his guest rights.  Of course, if Lara had been starving she probably would not have been able to hold back.
--- End quote ---

Then again was it Lara's free will?  Or simple survival instinct?  Also like any intelligent predator the Hunger Demon selects and culls it's victims.  I don't think Lara's free will has anything to do with that, as you point out if the Hunger Demon is starving, Lara wouldn't be able to hold back.. I think Thomas has tried or did try that was the struggle that Margaret was talking about, but his free will is weakening.

--- Quote ---This means Lara; and by extension, all White Court vampires have free will, unless they are pushed to extremis.  Though their demon exerts constant pressure on them, it can be controlled, at least to a degree.  This is why Uriel feels sympathy for the members of the White Court.  Their free will to make a better choice isn't eliminated but is severely constrained and they are always being pushed to just give in and go the other way.

--- End quote ---

Or for them, free will is an illusion, they may appear to have free will, but in the end when hungry enough, the Demon will have it's way, the host will feed, feed until death of the victim if need be.. No free will there, it appears that the host doesn't even have the option of suicide to rid themselves of it.. Unless that is what Thomas is really doing now, committing suicide to finally rid himself of it.  That's why what Harry saw in that soul gaze was two sides of a mirror, which image of Thomas is real and which one is illusion.

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