The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
Mira:
--- Quote ---I don't think Chauzoggoroth ever lied to Harry by commission. I'm not sure he even could directly lie to Harry, once the deal was struck. Certainly, even if he could, getting caught in a direct lie would wreck his credibility, and thus tend to drive off sucke-I mean customers. :lol:
Now Chaunzoggorth certainly lied to Harry by omission and implication, just as Mab and her ilk sometimes do. He was trying to sucker Harry in, and Harry only realized what an idiot he was being in dealing with Chaunzoggoroth when it was almost too late. But I don't think C ever directly lied to Harry during their interaction.
Notice how he structured his statements. Everything he told Harry was a simple, direct statement of fact, except for one tidbit: the idea that the source of the loup garou curse was Saint Patrick. When he got to that part, C said, 'it is said that'. C didn't say Patrick cursed the MacFinns, he said that 'it is said that he cursed them'. Which is probably not a direct lie, I'm sure it's been said by someone at some point, whether he really did or not. That suggests to me that C doesn't actually, technically lie during his contractual exchanges.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I do think while Chauncy might not out right lie to Harry, I also think he could be deceptive.. If you aren't smart enough to figure that out it's on you, how many times have we heard Mab say that to Harry? In other words saying enough to where they aren't lying, but leaving out some important information allowing you to lie to yourself about what she said. Anyway that's off topic a bit, I don't think Chauncy lied about Margaret to Harry simply because I don't think it was any advantage in telling Harry that she redeemed herself in the end.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 31, 2024, 01:53:15 PM ---Yeah, I do think while Chauncy might not out right lie to Harry, I also think he could be deceptive.... In other words saying enough to where they aren't lying, but leaving out some important information allowing you to lie to yourself ...
--- End quote ---
THIS.
100%
You can tell the absolute truth, without coming anywhere close to the whole truth, and still be telling nothing but the truth.
If Chauncy tells a carefully-curated "worst 5%" of the truth to Harry; and puts careful spin and "implication" onto it -- loaded words without being false words, etc -- then he can deceive Harry quite completely, by telling "the truth."
Nicodemus/Anduriel even more-so, even more subtly. Without lying, he can imply things that will lead Harry to suspect certain things, that will spark certain ideas, that will get Harry to investigate in certain directions. If Harry then does as Nic predicted, well... that was Harry's free will, wasn't it? Even if the info Harry finds is untrustworthy/prejudicial... and that was known to Nic.
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: g33k on August 01, 2024, 05:50:22 AM ---THIS.
100%
You can tell the absolute truth, without coming anywhere close to the whole truth, and still be telling nothing but the truth.
If Chauncy tells a carefully-curated "worst 5%" of the truth to Harry; and puts careful spin and "implication" onto it -- loaded words without being false words, etc -- then he can deceive Harry quite completely, by telling "the truth."
Nicodemus/Anduriel even more-so, even more subtly. Without lying, he can imply things that will lead Harry to suspect certain things, that will spark certain ideas, that will get Harry to investigate in certain directions. If Harry then does as Nic predicted, well... that was Harry's free will, wasn't it? Even if the info Harry finds is untrustworthy/prejudicial... and that was known to Nic.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, but that fails the Ockham's Razor test.
Yes, they could be lying indirectly...but Chaunzoggoth's statements about Margaret were pretty direct and basic. There wasn't much room for interpretation, as far as they went.
Now Nicodemus is certainly capable of lying, directly or indirectly, and certainly willing to do so...but again, under the circumstances when the exchange happened, he had no motive to do so. He was trying to recruit Harry, but he had already decided that if Harry wouldn't join up, then he was going to kill him then and there. So manipulation would be a waste of time. That whole conversation looks most likely to be just what it seemed like, Nicodemus trying to recruit Harry, mentioning in passing that he knew Harry's mother and about his sibling, and Harry refusing to play.
Nicodemus had every intention of killing Harry there and then, and he would have done so, except that Shiro showed up just in time to save him. So Nicodemus could have been playing con man...but under the circumstances, that fails the Razor test.
Mira:
--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on August 02, 2024, 06:42:57 AM ---Yeah, but that fails the Ockham's Razor test.
Yes, they could be lying indirectly...but Chaunzoggoth's statements about Margaret were pretty direct and basic. There wasn't much room for interpretation, as far as they went.
Now Nicodemus is certainly capable of lying, directly or indirectly, and certainly willing to do so...but again, under the circumstances when the exchange happened, he had no motive to do so. He was trying to recruit Harry, but he had already decided that if Harry wouldn't join up, then he was going to kill him then and there. So manipulation would be a waste of time. That whole conversation looks most likely to be just what it seemed like, Nicodemus trying to recruit Harry, mentioning in passing that he knew Harry's mother and about his sibling, and Harry refusing to play.
Nicodemus had every intention of killing Harry there and then, and he would have done so, except that Shiro showed up just in time to save him. So Nicodemus could have been playing con man...but under the circumstances, that fails the Razor test.
--- End quote ---
It does pass it in the sense that what Nic was doing was twisting the knife and increasing Harry's emotional pain in hopes of weakening him to the point where Harry would give up and accept the coin because he would feel that the White Council wronged his mother and wronged him. He was playing Harry but not in the usual way.
g33k:
Also, I think Nic & Anduriel are entirely capable of making a "safety" play & leaving Harry with an impression they'd like him to have, on the outside chance he survives.
They know there are KotC's in the field against them, so they know their "best-laid plans" may still not be good enough.
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