The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
vincentric:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 29, 2024, 11:01:48 AM ---One of the themes of the series is redemption, that's what the Holy Knights are about. Their job isn't to kill Denarians, but to convince them to redeem themselves or try to. While maybe a Holy Knight didn't do it, Margaret managed to redeem herself in the end. Chauncy said it, they lost her in the end. So all the bad things said about her could all very well be true, but at the same time the good things said about her in the end were also true.
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And yet you stand fast to the idea that Mab, Titania and Molly no longer have souls. That Thomas and all the other WC vampires are just monsters pretending to be human. Redemption is for everyone, not just the people we like. Why is Margaret Redeemable and not them?
Mira:
--- Quote from: vincentric on July 29, 2024, 03:33:10 PM ---And yet you stand fast to the idea that Mab, Titania and Molly no longer have souls. That Thomas and all the other WC vampires are just monsters pretending to be human. Redemption is for everyone, not just the people we like. Why is Margaret Redeemable and not them?
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Margaret remained 100% human, with a human soul, powerful wizard maybe, but still human.. By her acts she put her soul in jeopardy, but she still had a soul. Same goes for the Denarians, they still have a soul, if they give up their coin, it is up to them to redeem themselves in their remaining time on Earth.. Mab is about 99.99% not human.. Debatable whether she has any soul left or not to redeem.
g33k:
--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on July 29, 2024, 05:44:06 AM ---... and Aramina, who is Aramina.
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Errr... who is Aramina?
(edit: do you mean the Rampire Duchess Arianna Ortega?)
--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on July 29, 2024, 05:44:06 AM --- ... Oh, yeah, one other tiny good sign: apparently Martha Liberty had some kind of positive opinion of Margaret, or so it's hinted at one point ...
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You forgot to mention Rashid; who is, likely, the very most Clued-In of all the White Council.
I think we see that he liked her, too. Maybe not 100% in agreement, but more in-agreement than not (and evidently with ample opportunity to take her out, if he had been so inclined).
--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on July 29, 2024, 05:44:06 AM --- ... But the overall thrust is bad ...
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Dunno.
You've listed Nic & Chaucy as key character-witnesses, here; and while their supernatural/Infernal state puts them very much in a position to know, their trustworthiness is worse than just "bad."
I'd be more inclined to think of them as con-artists, telling the story they want Harry to hear... including enough truth to be "that checks out" but also enough "bad stuff" to keep him from looking too hard for fear of what nastiness he might find.
Eb I think was trying really hard, still, to keep the secret of her parentage. So he couldn't investigate too hard, and maybe accepted the word of people he shouldn't have, about her lawbreaking behavior.
She was walking the wrong side of the line for a good long while, no mistake: politics may make "strange bedfellows," but she was literally in bed with the strongest Incubus in the world, having "awesome vampire sex" (Jim's phrase). I think Grey's experience of her was likely mostly from this "Black Council" period.
But when we look at Martha Liberty -- and especially Rashid -- then I think her overall image gets MUCH more shades-of-gray... and not necessarily one of the darker shades.
My headcanon has her "seduced by the Dark Side" for a while -- lured in via her idealism & the all-too-obvious failings of the White Council -- and working the "Starbabe Plan" on their behalf; but then broken-free (possibly/probably by Lea) and meeting Malcolm, and deciding a Starborn Wizard not under "Black Council aegis" was what the world needed (again, likely Lea's doing).
But also, Uriel was deep in those weeds, I think.
Mira:
--- Quote ---You've listed Nic & Chaucy as key character-witnesses, here; and while their supernatural/Infernal state puts them very much in a position to know, their trustworthiness is worse than just "bad."
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Might add though that Chauncy admitted that she changed somehow, he didn't elaborate, and she was lost to his side. I think that can be trusted because I think it took a lot for him to admit a loss for his side.
--- Quote ---My headcanon has her "seduced by the Dark Side" for a while -- lured in via her idealism & the all-too-obvious failings of the White Council -- and working the "Starbabe Plan" on their behalf; but then broken-free (possibly/probably by Lea) and meeting Malcolm, and deciding a Starborn Wizard not under "Black Council aegis" was what the world needed (again, likely Lea's doing).
But also, Uriel was deep in those weeds, I think.
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I agree with this for the most part.
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: g33k on July 29, 2024, 10:32:03 PM ---Errr... who is Aramina?
(edit: do you mean the Rampire Duchess Arianna Ortega?)
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Yes, that's her, for some reason I always find myself thinking of her as 'Aramina'. I don't know where that comes from, but I keep doing it.
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You forgot to mention Rashid; who is, likely, the very most Clued-In of all the White Council.
I think we see that he liked her, too. Maybe not 100% in agreement, but more agreement than niot (and evidently with ample opportunity to take her out, if he had been so inclined).
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I can't prove it, but I suspect we're seeing a 'timeline' issue. That is, Stacy's version was Margaret in the early stages, before she crossed whatever lines she crossed. Probably Rashid's association with her was in those relatively early stages too, Stacy did mention that even back then, she was a genius at accessing Faerie. I suspect the nastier stuff came later.
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Dunno.
You've listed Nic & Chaucy as key character-witnesses, here; and while their supernatural/Infernal state puts them very much in a position to know, their trustworthiness is worse than just "bad."
I'd be more inclined to think of them as con-artists, telling the story they want Harry to hear... including enough truth to be "that checks out" but also enough "bad stuff" to keep him from looking too hard for fear of what nastiness he might find.
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I don't think Chauzoggoroth ever lied to Harry by commission. I'm not sure he even could directly lie to Harry, once the deal was struck. Certainly, even if he could, getting caught in a direct lie would wreck his credibility, and thus tend to drive off sucke-I mean customers. :lol:
Now Chaunzoggorth certainly lied to Harry by omission and implication, just as Mab and her ilk sometimes do. He was trying to sucker Harry in, and Harry only realized what an idiot he was being in dealing with Chaunzoggoroth when it was almost too late. But I don't think C ever directly lied to Harry during their interaction.
Notice how he structured his statements. Everything he told Harry was a simple, direct statement of fact, except for one tidbit: the idea that the source of the loup garou curse was Saint Patrick. When he got to that part, C said, 'it is said that'. C didn't say Patrick cursed the MacFinns, he said that 'it is said that he cursed them'. Which is probably not a direct lie, I'm sure it's been said by someone at some point, whether he really did or not. That suggests to me that C doesn't actually, technically lie during his contractual exchanges.
--- Quote ---.
Eb I think was trying really hard, still, to keep the secret of her parentage. So he couldn't investigate too hard, and maybe accepted the word of people he shouldn't have, about her lawbreaking behavior.
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That I do not buy. Eb is many things, but stupid isn't one of them, and I can't imagine he would be made the Blackstaff if he wasn't the sort of man who doesn't do 'sloppy'.
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But when we look at Martha Liberty -- and especially Rashid -- then I think her overall image gets MUCH more shades-of-gray... and not necessarily one of the darker shades.
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As I said, I suspect it's a timeline issue, it depends on at what point in her life we're talking about. A century is a long time, on a human scale.
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