The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
LordDresden2:
Regarding Margaret and her escape, we have to assume that Eb is telling the truth when he told Harry that she had broken the First Law, among others, and that by the time Harry was born the Wardens were actively hunting her. Even if it started out as simply 'watching' her, as Luccio said, Eb said specifically that it had gone way past that by the end.
We have to assume that, because otherwise, when she escaped and went on the run, Margaret could have turned to the Council for protection. She could easily make it worth the Wardens' while to protect her and Malcolm from the WVs, IF she was just still a misguided idealist. After all, she would be an absolute platinum mine of juicy intel about the White Court. She could deliver inside information about the innermost circles of the organization.
But in the event, she was running from both the Council and the Court.
g33k:
--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on July 28, 2024, 06:19:41 PM --- ... We have to assume that, because otherwise, when she escaped and went on the run, Margaret could have turned to the Council for protection ...
--- End quote ---
Not necessarily.
For example -- Eb says she broke the First Law, and they were hunting her.
But what if she had been framed?
Knew she was innocent, but that she was under a kill-on-sight order?
Alternatively, I (and others) suspect that the "Dinner Party" she had invited Eb to -- he one with the white King & Duchess Arianna (where she spotted that Eb & Maggie "fought like family") -- was likely a "Black Council" initiative, an effort to recruit Eb. And if she was inside the "Black Council," it is entirely possible that she knew (or had excellent reason to suspect) that the White Council was already too compromised for her to shelter safely there.
I'm sure that Jim could create other valid reasons for Maggie Sr. to be "less evil" than depicted, but unable to claim any sanctuary or safety with the White Council. We know our understanding of her to be woefully inadequate; both incomplete, and mistaken in (at least some of) the details.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I'm sure that Jim could create other valid reasons for Maggie Sr. to be "less evil" than depicted, but unable to claim any sanctuary or safety with the White Council. We know our understanding of her to be woefully inadequate; both incomplete, and mistaken in (at least some of) the details.
--- End quote ---
It is possible that Margaret was every bit as bad as the White Council says she was. If you can believe Chauncy, who said she was headed right into their arms, she was.. Eb loved her, blamed himself no doubt, but I don't think he has any illusions about her. There are those who tried to be sympathetic, Rashid, Listens to Wind, even Morgan, partly because of Eb, and maybe because they might have known her a bit better than others did. So yeah, she was bad, she broke laws, but she wasn't beyond redemption, and she was redeemed in the end, Chauncy said so, even if he didn't understand. The love of a very good man with a very good soul and loving him back, made her want to mend her ways, and she was redeemed.. So everything said about Margaret can be true, it is just very complicated.
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: g33k on July 28, 2024, 06:59:45 PM ---Not necessarily.
For example -- Eb says she broke the First Law, and they were hunting her.
But what if she had been framed?
Knew she was innocent, but that she was under a kill-on-sight order?
Alternatively, I (and others) suspect that the "Dinner Party" she had invited Eb to -- he one with the white King & Duchess Arianna (where she spotted that Eb & Maggie "fought like family") -- was likely a "Black Council" initiative, an effort to recruit Eb. And if she was inside the "Black Council," it is entirely possible that she knew (or had excellent reason to suspect) that the White Council was already too compromised for her to shelter safely there.
I'm sure that Jim could create other valid reasons for Maggie Sr. to be "less evil" than depicted, but unable to claim any sanctuary or safety with the White Council. We know our understanding of her to be woefully inadequate; both incomplete, and mistaken in (at least some of) the details.
--- End quote ---
Agreed about out lack of knowledge.
But...this is where Ockham's Razor cuts sharply. We don't have much hard data about Margaret, but we've had lots of hints and clues, and most of them point in the same direction. Eb said point blank that she had broken the First Law, and added 'among others' IIRC. Nicodemus has 'fond memories' of Margaret, and her ability to make her own simulacrum and project it into Thomas and Harry's minds suggests she knew the Denarians well enough to study some of their abilities. Thomas called her 'one hell of a dangerous witch'. Chanzoggorth said Hell thought they were going to claim her. Lea said that Margaret acted like Harry...at the very end of her life. Not before. Goodman Grey, IIRC, called Margaret a 'piece of work'. That from a half-Nagloshi. She was plotting something with Lord Raith, who is known for being a Solid Guy (that's sarcasm, son, as Foghorn Leghorn would say), and Aramina, who is Aramina.
Out of all the hints and clues we've had from people who knew her or interacted with her, only Stacy's version is at all positive (and Lea's a little, Lea said she started acting like Harry acts at the very end). All the other references have been negative. Oh, yeah, one other tiny good sign: apparently Martha Liberty had some kind of positive opinion of Margaret, or so it's hinted at one point.
But the overall thrust is bad.
OK, maybe she was like Harry, broke Laws but not a true warlock, complicated extenuating circumstances and so forth. But contrast their reputations. A lot of people, on and off the Council, think Harry is a dangerous menacing warlock or worse...but there are also a lot of people, on and off the Council, who have very high opinions of him, too. It's not hard to find people in the Dresdenverse who'll tell you that Harry Dresden is a stand-up guy and solid. If a lot of people hate, fear, and distrust him, a lot of other people hold him in high regard and respect.
In contrast, almost everything we've received about Margaret is negative.
So what's the simplest interpretation of the data, as William of Ockham would ask?
One possibility (and I don't necessarily believe it, it's a WAG): during her idealistic wild youth, she might have found herself in a situation kind of like Harry's life, breaking a Law or two in extremis, and wrongly condemned for it. If she went down the wrong road after that, the twisting effects of black magic and bad company could have turned her into the Margaret we've all heard about.
Which might be part of why Eb is so worried about Harry's current activities...
Mira:
--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on July 29, 2024, 05:44:06 AM ---Agreed about out lack of knowledge.
But...this is where Ockham's Razor cuts sharply. We don't have much hard data about Margaret, but we've had lots of hints and clues, and most of them point in the same direction. Eb said point blank that she had broken the First Law, and added 'among others' IIRC. Nicodemus has 'fond memories' of Margaret, and her ability to make her own simulacrum and project it into Thomas and Harry's minds suggests she knew the Denarians well enough to study some of their abilities. Thomas called her 'one hell of a dangerous witch'. Chanzoggorth said Hell thought they were going to claim her. Lea said that Margaret acted like Harry...at the very end of her life. Not before. Goodman Grey, IIRC, called Margaret a 'piece of work'. That from a half-Nagloshi. She was plotting something with Lord Raith, who is known for being a Solid Guy (that's sarcasm, son, as Foghorn Leghorn would say), and Aramina, who is Aramina.
Out of all the hints and clues we've had from people who knew her or interacted with her, only Stacy's version is at all positive (and Lea's a little, Lea said she started acting like Harry acts at the very end). All the other references have been negative. Oh, yeah, one other tiny good sign: apparently Martha Liberty had some kind of positive opinion of Margaret, or so it's hinted at one point.
But the overall thrust is bad.
OK, maybe she was like Harry, broke Laws but not a true warlock, complicated extenuating circumstances and so forth. But contrast their reputations. A lot of people, on and off the Council, think Harry is a dangerous menacing warlock or worse...but there are also a lot of people, on and off the Council, who have very high opinions of him, too. It's not hard to find people in the Dresdenverse who'll tell you that Harry Dresden is a stand-up guy and solid. If a lot of people hate, fear, and distrust him, a lot of other people hold him in high regard and respect.
In contrast, almost everything we've received about Margaret is negative.
So what's the simplest interpretation of the data, as William of Ockham would ask?
One possibility (and I don't necessarily believe it, it's a WAG): during her idealistic wild youth, she might have found herself in a situation kind of like Harry's life, breaking a Law or two in extremis, and wrongly condemned for it. If she went down the wrong road after that, the twisting effects of black magic and bad company could have turned her into the Margaret we've all heard about.
Which might be part of why Eb is so worried about Harry's current activities...
--- End quote ---
One of the themes of the series is redemption, that's what the Holy Knights are about. Their job isn't to kill Denarians, but to convince them to redeem themselves or try to. While maybe a Holy Knight didn't do it, Margaret managed to redeem herself in the end. Chauncy said it, they lost her in the end. So all the bad things said about her could all very well be true, but at the same time the good things said about her in the end were also true.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version