The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Carlos and Chandler's mentors
Mira:
--- Quote from: Tinfoil hat on April 18, 2024, 03:13:17 PM ---Agreed it easier said than done.
Even without the doom over their heads( I doubt Harry would retain it of wizards willing to rehab young kids who are potential warlocks) he would still have difficulty finding wizards willing to play babysitter for a potential warlock. Dark magic is addictive. Helping someone kick an addiction is hard and most people ain't suited for the job even if willing which most people aren't.
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Most likely it is that addictive aspect of Black magic is why if the apprentice under the Doom slides into warlockhood, the assumption is that it has to have happened to the master as well.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Mira on April 14, 2024, 11:56:34 AM ---Not maybe as we have known him, but Harry will survive. But then again, Jim is now successful enough that if he loses some readers because he kills Harry off it won't hurt him that much. Also consider, Jim has already "killed" Harry off once and brought him back, and he isn't the same Harry he was before, nor is his world.
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I mean, unless Harry becomes immortal...which has been hinted at. But I think Harry might go the Vadderung model if he does, rather than the Mab one. Something a bit more flexible. That said, after everything Harry has been through I think it would almost cruel to have to live more in the mortal plane (whether he is immortal or otherwise). Harry deserves to find peace and be with his family again.
--- Quote ---Yes, young Harry rejected authority in a lot of ways, corrupt authority especially. I disagree, Harry is no libertarian, not in the classic sense. Up until they rejected him outright, Harry had a lot of respect for the White Council from just the way he talked about it. No, he didn't follow all the rules all of the time, but more out of nessesity rather than disregard for them or belief that they didn't have merit. Go back to his debate with the Merlin in his defense of Molly in Proven Guilty, that wasn't argued by a libertarian, it was argued by a future Merlin wanting the White Council to follow it's own rules. Carlos maybe still young but he still represents the old guard, Harry is the new.
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Well, it's just a philosophical position. Which doesn't mean he follows every tenet of it. But he does surely hold the central tenet of liberty (the freedom from oppressive restrictions imposed by an authority on one's life) is a core value of his. So, even if he isn't a Libertarian in the sense of a political movement (and I was a bit unclear on that, I apologise) he is a follower of the philosophy.
But I am not suggesting he believes the world would be better without the White Council, yet. I do think he thinks the world is better off without a corrupt one, though. Which I think it could be argued the current one, is.
The latest book doesn't simply put Harry outside the White Council, he's on a collision course with it. Harry and the White Council are gearing up for a fight with each other. Harry is simply saying his boundary is his home, and they need to live him and his alone. The Council is saying they don't recognise his boundary, and will not leave him alone. That will lead to a conflict. I remind you that the Gatekeeper did once tell Harry (back in Proven Guilty I think) that it is not yet his time to challenge the Council. But, I think we have reached that inflection point now.
Ultimately though, Harry himself admits openly his distrust and disdain for authority. Every single book has had him clash with some sort of authority. I would even go so far to say it's a core part of his character - to clash with authority. He has improved a lot since the early days, is a bit wiser about how he goes about it and understands the issues better now. But he doesn't want to rule anyone, because he himself doesn't wish to be ruled.
Carlos is the new wave, but yes he ultimately follows the philosophies of the old guard. But he wants to control and restrict others, he won't compromise himself so much for the greater good. It's a fundamental difference to Harry. Harry will "sell off pieces of his soul, so that someone who won't know his name can live" as Mab put it. As evidenced by his many deals - hell, he used to sell pieces of his Name to Chauncy. Carlos doesn't do that. He sticks to the rules.
As Harry is quite the rule breaker (having broken many of the Accords himself, and several Laws of Magic and purportedly from Jim will break them all eventually) he hardly is the right candidate to be Merlin. Above all, the Merlin must have ultimate integrity otherwise the whole thing cannot be trusted. Harry is more like Ebenezar (no surprise). If he doesn't become the Blackstaff, I would say he is lining up for the next Gatekeeper role. Both of those long before the Merlin position.
But as I say, I don't really see him forming another White Council. Something else, more free, if he had anything to do with it. Not so archaic and restrictive. As g33k suggested, probably something built out of the Paranet.
--- Quote ---Harry didn't leave the White Council, the White Council left him. I also disagree that Harry likes being an outsider, he cannot afford to be with the BAT coming. He has to learn to play well with others and become a leader. This is what makes the series interesting, Harry has to evolve and is evolving, he has had to learn to play nice with some and reject others, watching him grow up is what makes the series compelling.
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Well, they kicked him out. A small but important difference, I think. For breaking their rules too often, mind you. I mean, the very first book says Harry is on probation for breaking one of the main rules.
I think Harry IS an outsider, a loner. Whether he really likes it or not. He never really fit in with the White Council or the mainstream. He openly advertised himself in the phonebook - this was so far outside the ideas of the mainstream wizarding community he was ostracised (not to mention whatever monstrous nature he may have).
As Ebenezar has pointed out, Harry is being isolated. By his own choice, to a degree. But also by his new allies like Mab. From Harry's perspective, he is making the best choices he can. But that doesn't mean he isn't being isolated.
But Harry has allies, through his various deals and favors and friendships. The question is, which of them will come to his aid voluntarily and which will be forced to when the chips are down and he takes on the White Council? Winter? Vadderung? Ebenezar? River Shoulders? Lara and the White Court? The Knights of the Cross?
It reminds me of another wizard...
Something else to consider. If the White Council had an enemy or group of enemies out there, who wanted to remove them, who found them inconvenient - one of the best and oldest tricks to do it is divide and conquer. Now, what enemy might the White Council have? A shadowy organisation with links to eldritch demon gods...? If, say, that organisation knew of a powerful, rebellious wizard and knew that by isolating him and playing into his fears and pressuring him it might send him on a collision course with the White Council, how might they go about that?
Would they just tell him to attack the White Council, make some offer for power that he wouldn't take? Or would they turn his allies against him? Misconstrue his actions and best intentions to look as bad as possible? Create an environment of fear and distrust in order to push people to act in certain ways, say, kicking a White Council hero off the team? Target his friends and family in order to get him to act rashly? Perhaps even put years of work into him just to get him to the moment he might act?
Whilst simultaneously preparing more direct assaults against the White Council, the largest defence humanity has against the supernatural?
I think that's exactly the kind of thing Cowl & Co. might do.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I mean, unless Harry becomes immortal...which has been hinted at. But I think Harry might go the Vadderung model if he does, rather than the Mab one. Something a bit more flexible. That said, after everything Harry has been through I think it would almost cruel to have to live more in the mortal plane (whether he is immortal or otherwise). Harry deserves to find peace and be with his family again.
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If Harry dies, it will be at the end I hope surrounded by his children and grandchildren. I don't want to see Harry made into some kind of immortal of any stripe. He does deserve peace, and after it is over, if he is surrounded by friends and family, he will have it.
--- Quote ---Well, it's just a philosophical position. Which doesn't mean he follows every tenet of it. But he does surely hold the central tenet of liberty (the freedom from oppressive restrictions imposed by an authority on one's life) is a core value of his. So, even if he isn't a Libertarian in the sense of a political movement (and I was a bit unclear on that, I apologise) he is a follower of the philosophy.
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It doesn't make him a libertarian, it just makes him an ordinary human who wishes to havethe freedom to mostly live his life as he sees fit. That's no different from the rest of us, and most of us understand there are still laws we all have to abide by or there would be anarchy. Harry understands that also.
--- Quote ---But I am not suggesting he believes the world would be better without the White Council, yet. I do think he thinks the world is better off without a corrupt one, though. Which I think it could be argued the current one, is.
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I don't think anyone disagrees with that except maybe some of the old fossilized wizards, however having said that I don't think for the most part that the White Council is corrupt so much as it needs to be reformed and updated to fit better into the 21st Century.
--- Quote ---As Ebenezar has pointed out, Harry is being isolated. By his own choice, to a degree. But also by his new allies like Mab. From Harry's perspective, he is making the best choices he can. But that doesn't mean he isn't being isolated.
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However that isn't an isolation of choice on Harry's part.. That kind of isolation isn't the same as choosing to be a loner.
--- Quote ---Ultimately though, Harry himself admits openly his distrust and disdain for authority. Every single book has had him clash with some sort of authority. I would even go so far to say it's a core part of his character - to clash with authority. He has improved a lot since the early days, is a bit wiser about how he goes about it and understands the issues better now. But he doesn't want to rule anyone, because he himself doesn't wish to be ruled.
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Again, I disagree, Harry has reason to distrust authority, but that isn't the same as having a disdain for authority. His clashes with authority in most of the books is about what the rules should be and living by those rules, not about disregarding the rules.
--- Quote ---Something else to consider. If the White Council had an enemy or group of enemies out there, who wanted to remove them, who found them inconvenient - one of the best and oldest tricks to do it is divide and conquer. Now, what enemy might the White Council have? A shadowy organisation with links to eldritch demon gods...? If, say, that organisation knew of a powerful, rebellious wizard and knew that by isolating him and playing into his fears and pressuring him it might send him on a collision course with the White Council, how might they go about that?
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Well, that is a technique as old as when mankind first began to organize into groups. In this case it isn't Harry doing the isolation, the White Council is it's own worst enemy. The enemy plays upon the White Council's own fossilized view of the world, not much Harry can do about that. He has clashed with the White Council at Molly's trial, and Rashid has foretold that he will clash with them again... However that doesn't mean that it is a bad thing if he does.
--- Quote ---Would they just tell him to attack the White Council, make some offer for power that he wouldn't take? Or would they turn his allies against him? Misconstrue his actions and best intentions to look as bad as possible? Create an environment of fear and distrust in order to push people to act in certain ways, say, kicking a White Council hero off the team? Target his friends and family in order to get him to act rashly? Perhaps even put years of work into him just to get him to the moment he might act?
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Except I cannot see Harry doing that, nor does the series point to that happening in my opinion. Harry is too logical a being, that's part of his makeup as a good private detective.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Mira on April 19, 2024, 04:37:56 PM --- If Harry dies, it will be at the end I hope surrounded by his children and grandchildren. I don't want to see Harry made into some kind of immortal of any stripe. He does deserve peace, and after it is over, if he is surrounded by friends and family, he will have it.
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I more meant Heaven - which while we don't know for a fact exists in the Dresden Files (Uriel was exceptionally tight lipped on the subject) - I think it is heavily implied to exist. Uriel wasn't so sure Harry would end up there either, when Harry last flirted with death. I wonder where Harry is on the scale now.
--- Quote ---It doesn't make him a libertarian, it just makes him an ordinary human who wishes to have the freedom to mostly live his life as he sees fit. That's no different from the rest of us, and most of us understand there are still laws we all have to abide by or there would be anarchy. Harry understands that also.
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Not all people in the world do actually hold that as a central idea. Many places do not have the luxury of the kind of freedom we enjoy. Some places and societies even believe that they prefer a lessening of one's personal freedoms for the "greater good" of their society. I am sure you can work out which places those are. But even in countries like the US, not everyone holds liberty as highly as others. Hence all the politics. But Harry does hold liberty highly, higher than most. He might not be Ron Swanson (if you have ever seen Parks and Rec) and not believe in no government etc but I would say he is less likely to allow himself to be governed than ever before. I will concede that he seems to have more respect for mortal governments than supernatural ones...which is highly interesting.
--- Quote ---I don't think anyone disagrees with that except maybe some of the old fossilized wizards, however having said that I don't think for the most part that the White Council is corrupt so much as it needs to be reformed and updated to fit better into the 21st Century.
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I mean, it's hard to say. Depending on your definition of corruption - is it simply corrupted by its own political power, or has black magic corrupted their purpose etc. At one point, Harry thought that the White Council was so corrupt and infiltrated by the theoretical Black Council, that he needed to help create a Grey Council (whatever happened to them, by the way, haven't heard a peep from them in 5 books). Ebenezar constantly would chastise Harry for suggesting there should be no White Council, even suggested that it might be worth Harry's life for suggesting such a thing in days gone by. I think the question becomes does Harry think the current White Council is too corrupt to exist?
--- Quote ---However that isn't an isolation of choice on Harry's part.. That kind of isolation isn't the same as choosing to be a loner.
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Oooh, I am not sure I agree with that. One of the clearest parts of the series is about how much individual choices matter. Harry has chosen his path, no one walked it for him. The consequences of it are on him. Earlier in the series he chose to be a loner, but these days it's worse than that. He made deals with vampires and faeries and other monsters, he pushed against the White Council's restrictions and even got himself in political fights with them, he has lied and pushed away many of his former allies in order to "save" them but also to protect himself, and he has done a LOT of questionable stuff that without context doesn't look great from the outside (and even with context some of which still is pretty questionable). Most of all, he has gathered a hell of a lot of personal and political power in a very short amount of time. That's the sort of thing that scares people. It's not for nothing that Mab loves Harry's rise to power.
--- Quote ---Again, I disagree, Harry has reason to distrust authority, but that isn't the same as having a disdain for authority. His clashes with authority in most of the books is about what the rules should be and living by those rules, not about disregarding the rules.
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Are you sure about that? His disdain for the White Council is fairly evident. He refused to attend regular Council meetings, barely visits HQ in Edinburgh (to the point that only Rashid, the most mysterious wizard, visited less), refused for the longest time to learn proper Latin or wear a formal robe (he literally wore a dirty bath robe - if that isn't disrespectful I don't know what is), argued publicly with the Merlin and actually beat him politically, refused for the longest time to be a Warden (openly hated them until he was forced to be one), and after "dying" ended up with a powerful new role in a shady group (the Winter Court) and refused to tell the White Council what was going on until Rashid did it for him.
Look at it this way - if he were a rogue soldier in the army, who often wouldn't follow orders, refused to learn proper army lingo, argued with superiors openly and disrespected the Commander-in-Chief openly by arguing with him, wore a dirty uniform openly, and wouldn't take on higher duties when heavy losses by a war he started needed him to, and then is supposedly KIA and doesn't bother to tell his bosses what happened and where he is - all they hear is that he actually is alive and involved in major combats outside their control and he actually might be playing for another (and very shady) organization (like a mercenary group for example, or even another sovereign entity). Plenty of that would get him discharged, if not court marshalled. He might even get executed.
But really, who is Harry to decide what the rules of the White Council (or any form of government) should be? What has he done in his life to show that he should be trusted with good governance and is an expert on such things? I don't think you want the human wrecking ball deciding on public policy.
--- Quote ---Well, that is a technique as old as when mankind first began to organize into groups. In this case it isn't Harry doing the isolation, the White Council is it's own worst enemy. The enemy plays upon the White Council's own fossilized view of the world, not much Harry can do about that. He has clashed with the White Council at Molly's trial, and Rashid has foretold that he will clash with them again... However that doesn't mean that it is a bad thing if he does.
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As above, I think Harry has done plenty to isolate himself. That's what Ebenezar was warning him about. Yes, the White Council is its own worst enemy. Yes, Harry has been pushed and manipulated and yes, their were plenty of extenuating circumstances to the things Harry has done. But. Harry's distrust and fear of the White Council and some of his own allies has kept them in the dark, and that is why they don't know why he is doing what he is doing. He might even be right to keep them in the dark - but that's the choice he made, and the consequences are on him.
I believe Rashid wasn't predicting Harry's future arguments with the White Council. He was predicting a civil war, in my opinion. Considering that if Harry defeats the Council, Cowl and his allies get what they want - no more White Council (something they have been trying to achieve since before the series started), I don't know if that would be such a good thing.
Like many civil wars, these things start based on ideology and progress into an increasingly violent and unforgivable tit-for-tat.
For example, let's say hypothetically Harry does something like use magic in a way the Council don't like. Warden's show up to arrest him. Harry resists arrest, maybe hurts or kills a Warden. The White Council treat him as an active threat and ask Ebenezar to kill him. Maybe Ebenezar tries and fails, Harry retaliates and brings his allies into it. Or maybe Eb sides with Harry and factions emerge and full-scale war breaks out. In the end, there is no White Council and Harry emerges the victor. Cowl is victorious.
--- Quote ---Except I cannot see Harry doing that, nor does the series point to that happening in my opinion. Harry is too logical a being, that's part of his makeup as a good private detective.
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Well, the Black Council has made Harry look as bad as possible (not that they needed to do all that much). They certainly have managed to turn his allies against him - he is literally off the White Council due to their interference. They have been targeting his friends and family for years - they took took Susan (which ended up killing her), they took Molly (which ended up with her as Winter Queen), they took Maggie (which she survived but is traumatised by), they killed many of his friends and possibly his parents (strongly hinted at), they manipulated his brother and stole Thomas' partner and baby (which resulted in Thomas being sentenced to death and Harry having to fight the White Council for him AND having to lock Thomas up himself in the most awful prison in the world), and they killed the woman he loves, Murphy.
Each time, Harry has been pushed to act more impulsively by these moments. Each time, he has been driven further away from the White Council and "good" allies. The Black Council have been manipulating Harry for years. Even before he was born, that's implied too. Harry has even realised that he might have been pushed for a very long time. He talks about it with Lea.
Harry is highly logical at times, but he is also incredibly emotional. Look at what he has done when emotional. He even knows and admits how little he is in control during those moments. Even so, logic alone won't be enough to stop him being manipulated. It's too late - he already has been manipulated. He is already outside the Council and prepared to fight them. It's a power keg scenario. Do you really think Harry Dresden, paragon of self-control, will hold back when the White Council does something harsh and unfair like try and arrest him for trumped up charges or perhaps attack those he loves? What if they arrest or kill friends of his? What if they took Maggie away? Harry would burn them to the ground. He's done it before. He's way stronger now, far more dangerous.
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote --- Harry has chosen his path, no one walked it for him
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I could say much on this topic, I have a fairly evolved tree of theory on it. But my idea for dresden isn't that he's a new being.. but a new identity for an older group of archetypes. A swirl, the easiest I think to see is the similarity of the 7 sins an seven laws. They are unbalanced. Twc's forgiveness saves from sin, but harry... isn't so nice. He'll be more weighty in his jurisdiction.
The above quote sparks such a parallel to Nic saying he is his path... Harry is the one who's really like that. Even with possible TT shenanigans, he's just manipulating his own circumstances to make better choices..
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