The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Carlos and Chandler's mentors
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on April 23, 2024, 01:18:36 AM --- I could say much on this topic, I have a fairly evolved tree of theory on it. But my idea for dresden isn't that he's a new being.. but a new identity for an older group of archetypes. A swirl, the easiest I think to see is the similarity of the 7 sins an seven laws. They are unbalanced. Twc's forgiveness saves from sin, but harry... isn't so nice. He'll be more weighty in his jurisdiction.
The above quote sparks such a parallel to Nic saying he is his path... Harry is the one who's really like that. Even with possible TT shenanigans, he's just manipulating his own circumstances to make better choices..
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You know, I had forgotten that quote. Thank you for reminding me. It's an eerie parallel, isn't it? We are all our path, in some ways. But you only have to look at what that path is made of to realise where it's going.
Harry has a knack for choosing to do better than the worst choice when confronted with bad options. But that doesn't mean the choices he has made are necessarily good either. Michael Carpenter even says that he doesn't envy the choices Harry has had to made, and isn't sure himself he would have done so well (and Michael is such a paragon of good a freaking Archangel trusted him with his Grace).
Mira:
--- Quote ---I more meant Heaven - which while we don't know for a fact exists in the Dresden Files (Uriel was exceptionally tight lipped on the subject) - I think it is heavily implied to exist. Uriel wasn't so sure Harry would end up there either, when Harry last flirted with death. I wonder where Harry is on the scale now.
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I remember that passage from Ghost Story, and Uriel didn't say one way or the other, though Uriel is an archangel, it isn't his place or job to judge Harry or anyone else.
--- Quote ---Not all people in the world do actually hold that as a central idea. Many places do not have the luxury of the kind of freedom we enjoy. Some places and societies even believe that they prefer a lessening of one's personal freedoms for the "greater good" of their society. I am sure you can work out which places those are. But even in countries like the US, not everyone holds liberty as highly as others. Hence all the politics. But Harry does hold liberty highly, higher than most. He might not be Ron Swanson (if you have ever seen Parks and Rec) and not believe in no government etc but I would say he is less likely to allow himself to be governed than ever before. I will concede that he seems to have more respect for mortal governments than supernatural ones...which is highly interesting.
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I haven't seen Parks and Rec, but Harry does allow himself to be governed, as Winter Knight, he is governed by Mab.. Yes, he wiggles as much as he can with in her rules and the rules that govern the Winter Court, but he respects them and obeys most of them.
--- Quote ---I mean, it's hard to say. Depending on your definition of corruption - is it simply corrupted by its own political power, or has black magic corrupted their purpose etc. At one point, Harry thought that the White Council was so corrupt and infiltrated by the theoretical Black Council, that he needed to help create a Grey Council (whatever happened to them, by the way, haven't heard a peep from them in 5 books). Ebenezar constantly would chastise Harry for suggesting there should be no White Council, even suggested that it might be worth Harry's life for suggesting such a thing in days gone by. I think the question becomes does Harry think the current White Council is too corrupt to exist?
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It isn't a simple problem of the White Council being infiltrated by the likes of the Black Council.. Harry wants to reform, not to abolish the White Council. I don't ever remember where Harry was arguing with Eb that there should be no White Council. However there is a bit of a problem when a large percentage of future wizards lose their heads because they make mistakes when their talent awakes and the fear that they may go warlock.. And then there are those that do go warlock because there aren't enough wizards to take them under their wing.. You see the problem here, wizards live a long time, but new blood is needed, and the rules that worked great six hundred or so years ago might not work quite as well in the 21st Century.
--- Quote ---Oooh, I am not sure I agree with that. One of the clearest parts of the series is about how much individual choices matter. Harry has chosen his path, no one walked it for him. The consequences of it are on him. Earlier in the series he chose to be a loner, but these days it's worse than that. He made deals with vampires and faeries and other monsters, he pushed against the White Council's restrictions and even got himself in political fights with them, he has lied and pushed away many of his former allies in order to "save" them but also to protect himself, and he has done a LOT of questionable stuff that without context doesn't look great from the outside (and even with context some of which still is pretty questionable). Most of all, he has gathered a hell of a lot of personal and political power in a very short amount of time. That's the sort of thing that scares people. It's not for nothing that Mab loves Harry's rise to power.
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Harry has never chosen to be a loner, he isn't a social butterfly, but he never was a loner.. He has always had friends, Michael for one.. There have always been those who have sacrificed themselves not just for his causes, but for him because of their love for
him.
--- Quote ---Are you sure about that? His disdain for the White Council is fairly evident. He refused to attend regular Council meetings, barely visits HQ in Edinburgh (to the point that only Rashid, the most mysterious wizard, visited less), refused for the longest time to learn proper Latin or wear a formal robe (he literally wore a dirty bath robe - if that isn't disrespectful I don't know what is), argued publicly with the Merlin and actually beat him politically, refused for the longest time to be a Warden (openly hated them until he was forced to be one), and after "dying" ended up with a powerful new role in a shady group (the Winter Court) and refused to tell the White Council what was going on until Rashid did it for him.
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Just because he doesn't attend the White Council's meetings doesn't mean he has no respect for them. Yeah, he didn't wear the proper robe to the meeting once but his good robe was covered in puke, blood, or cat poop I cannot remember which... That was also at a time when Harry was suffering clearly from severe depression his person and apartment reflected that. Learning any language takes time, Harry didn't know the White Council existed until he was arrested by them and they nearly took his head. He never finished high school though he did eventually get his GED.. He was still of high school age when he went to live with Eb.. Eb could have made him finish high school and take Latin, but he didn't. His argument with the Merlin was out of respect for the very rules of the White Council, and it was under those very rules he was able to save Molly.. If he had no faith in those rules he wouldn't have advised her to surrender to the Wardens in the first place.. Harry was under the Doom for years, and after many on the Council didn't want him, it was only out of nessesity that Luccio drafted him.
--- Quote ---But really, who is Harry to decide what the rules of the White Council (or any form of government) should be? What has he done in his life to show that he should be trusted with good governance and is an expert on such things? I don't think you want the human wrecking ball deciding on public policy.
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He isn't deciding what the rules of the White Council should be, but he does question whether or not they are all that they could be. Governments of any form are not perfect, sometimes bad laws are made, ineffective laws are made, some laws that worked great a hundred years ago, no longer apply now, the smarter governments recognize this and evolve.. Actually what has happened in Harry's life and what he has seen has made him very expert in these things, he nearly was a victim.
--- Quote ---As above, I think Harry has done plenty to isolate himself. That's what Ebenezar was warning him about. Yes, the White Council is its own worst enemy. Yes, Harry has been pushed and manipulated and yes, their were plenty of extenuating circumstances to the things Harry has done. But. Harry's distrust and fear of the White Council and some of his own allies has kept them in the dark, and that is why they don't know why he is doing what he is doing. He might even be right to keep them in the dark - but that's the choice he made, and the consequences are on him.
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He isn't the only one, Rashid is another who has isolated himself from the Council, but he has years of experience on how to do it without alienation of the Council. However that isolation is a two way street, the Council's own prejudice against Harry because of who his mother was has gone a long way to isolate Harry.
--- Quote ---Harry is highly logical at times, but he is also incredibly emotional. Look at what he has done when emotional. He even knows and admits how little he is in control during those moments. Even so, logic alone won't be enough to stop him being manipulated. It's too late - he already has been manipulated. He is already outside the Council and prepared to fight them. It's a power keg scenario. Do you really think Harry Dresden, paragon of self-control, will hold back when the White Council does something harsh and unfair like try and arrest him for trumped up charges or perhaps attack those he loves? What if they arrest or kill friends of his? What if they took Maggie away? Harry would burn them to the ground. He's done it before. He's way stronger now, far more dangerous.
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And should he? Really? Who was in control in Peace Talks, Eb or Harry? Who understood from the beginning that he didn't have a chance toe to toe with Eb and figured out a way around it?
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Mira on April 23, 2024, 01:08:59 PM ---I remember that passage from Ghost Story, and it wasn't so much that Uriel thought one way or the other, but though Uriel is an archangel, it isn't his place or job to judge Harry or anyone else.
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I don't think he was judging. I think he can see which way the river is flowing though, and he commented on it. A warning to Harry. Don't forget, Harry's did go "On" and low and behold went to the person he had sold himself to. A big part of the whole exercise was to warn Harry that he was on a slippery path.
--- Quote ---I haven't seen Parks and Rec, but Harry does allow himself to be governed, as Winter Knight, he is governed by Mab.. Yes, he wiggles as much as he can with in her rules and the rules that govern the Winter Court, but he respects them and obeys most of them.
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I mean, he "allows" it because she he often gets reminded she has him by the throat. If he obeys the rules, it's because he has no other option. Hence why he tries to wiggle out of them every. single. time. If that's a not a disrespect for authority, I don't know what is.
Mab often outplays him too, and for all his small victories against her, I'd say she is winning the longer battle. She told him he would be her Knight one day, she told him he would be her weapon. Everything has worked in her favour in the long run.
--- Quote ---It isn't a simple problem of the White Council being infiltrated by the likes of the Black Council.. Harry wants to reform, not to abolish the White Council. I don't ever remember where Harry was arguing with Eb that there should be no White Council. However there is a bit of a problem when a large percentage of future wizards lose their heads because they make mistakes when their talent awakes and the fear that they may go warlock.. And then there are those that do go warlock because there aren't enough wizards to take them under their wing.. You see the problem here, wizards live a long time, but new blood is needed, and the rules that worked great six hundred or so years ago might not work quite as well in the 21st Century.
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I agree Harry would prefer to reform them, but he did actually suggest at one point that it wouldn't be so bad if the White Council didn't exist and Ebenezar chewed him out over it. He even said it would be worth as much as Dresden's life to say such things, in times gone by. It was during the discussion when Ebenezar reveals himself as Blackstaff.
--- Quote --- "Ever since the founding of the White Council, ever since the first wizards gathered to lay down the Laws of Magic, there has been someone interested in tearing it apart," he said. "The vampires, for one. The faeries have all been at odds with us at one time or another. And there have always been wizards who thought the world would be a nicer place without the Council in it."
"Gee," I said. "I just can't figure why any wizard would think that."
Ebenezar's voice lashed out, harsh and cold. "You don't know what you're talking about, boy. You don't know what you're saying. Within my own lifetime, there have been times and places where even speaking those words could have been worth your life."
--- End quote ---
Blood Rites, pg 216.
Harry understands the sentiment that the world "would be a better place without the White Council" and it implies he feels the same, at least sometimes.
--- Quote ---Harry has never chosen to be a loner, he isn't a social butterfly, but he never was a loner.. He has always had friends, Michael for one.. There have always been those who have sacrificed themselves not just for his causes, but for him because of their love for him.
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Are we talking about the same guy who prefers to stay in reading books than going out? Who prefers the peacefulness of farms and homesteads to the big smoke? Who willing didn't see or tell any of his friends about his return from death? At least, until he had to. Yes, Harry has had friends. But that doesn't mean he hasn't chosen many, many times to be alone.
--- Quote ---Just because he doesn't attend the White Council's meetings doesn't mean he has no respect for them. Yeah, he didn't wear the proper robe to the meeting once but his good robe was covered in puke, blood, or cat poop I cannot remember which... That was also at a time when Harry was suffering clearly from severe depression his person and apartment reflected that. Learning any language takes time, Harry didn't know the White Council existed until he was arrested by them and they nearly took his head. He never finished high school though he did eventually get his GED.. He was still of high school age when he went to live with Eb.. Eb could have made him finish high school and take Latin, but he didn't. His argument with the Merlin was out of respect for the very rules of the White Council, and it was under those very rules he was able to save Molly.. If he had no faith in those rules he wouldn't have advised her to surrender to the Wardens in the first place.. Harry was under the Doom for years, and after many on the Council didn't want him, it was only out of nessesity that Luccio drafted him.
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He began to respect them more over time, but he eventually ended up hating them all the more when they failed him. Is it any accident, that when they failed to help him when he needed them the most, he stopped going to Council meetings? He only recently returned to warden duties, and then got kicked out of the White Council. Wearing his "formal" attire (which often was just a bathrobe rather than a proper robe) covered in dirt and grime and filth...is hardly respectful. If he were a cop or soldier, he would be reprimanded. If he did it repeatedly, he would be fired. It's disrespectful to the role that you hold. Yes, he might have been depressed. But either you deal with it and try and get better, or you quit. You can't compromise your job and expect everyone to pick up the slack indefinitely - and that's just a normal workplace. There's a lot less tolerance in things like law enforcement. Let alone a magic society.
I quite agree, the warlock problem is complex and multi-faceted. Apparently there are not enough wizards to train warlocks properly (although, what is stopping a wizard taking on multiple students?). A bigger problem is then each wizard would be under the Doom of Damocles. Hard to enforce that if you end up killing more wizards than wardens. Yes, the rules that were invented during the early days of the White Council are probably not as relevant or sophisticated to deal with the more complex issues that exist in the 21st century. But as Harry has shown, information being shared and early intervention is helping (although the wizards don't like that idea much, too dangerous in their eyes). Perhaps a less punitive approach and a more rehabilitative approach would work better. But only time will tell, and Dresden's world is only getting harsher and more chaotic. We ARE moving towards the apocalypse after all (which for some reason lots of readers forget Jim has said that's where the series is going - the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy).
--- Quote ---He isn't deciding what the rules of the White Council should be, but he does question whether or not they are all that they could be. Governments of any form are not perfect, sometimes bad laws are made, ineffective laws are made, some laws that worked great a hundred years ago, no longer apply now, the smarter governments recognize this and evolve.. Actually what has happened in Harry's life and what he has seen has made him very expert in these things, he nearly was a victim.
--- End quote ---
He would be deciding the rules if he made a new White Council, which was your suggestion. He is right to question if the rules need updating, that's fairly clear. But also Harry has seen over time the need for the Council's policies and procedures - things he didn't understand for a long time. He's seen what happens when things go wrong. Of course governments are not perfect! Some would say by definition they cannot be. I suspect Harry is somewhere in the middle of that. He sees the necessity, yet also wishes a lessening of the reach and authority of government. It's an incredibly complex topic that has been debated forever. I doubt Harry Dresden will solve it. Harry being a product of the failings of the White Council's policies and structure don't make him qualified to make a new one, in my opinion. If Harry has the right to make a new Council and decide new rules, it will be because he has earned it through trials of blood and sacrifice. It will be because he has learned the real dangers of unrestrained magic (which he still has yet to fully understand). It will be because he has defeated enough enemies of humans that they will respect him. It will be ultimately because he becomes strong enough that the wizards cannot say no to him, and as we know, a wizard's strength comes from his knowledge.
--- Quote ---He isn't the only one, Rashid is another who has isolated himself from the Council, but he has years of experience on how to do it without alienation of the Council. However that isolation is a two way street, the Council's own prejudice against Harry because of who his mother was has gone a long way to isolate Harry.
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Indeed, Rashid has isolated himself. But Rashid is also the oldest wizard on the planet - maybe the oldest human alive. He's a thousand years old or more. So, just by virtue of that, it isolates him. Not to mention his work requires him to be about as far from the mortal plane as you can go. The literal farthest reaches of the Nevernever. Perhaps Rashid was isolated by Mab or others but it's impossible to say. I would say Rashid is a bit alien to the Council, but he's so quiet and mysterious the don't get worried about him. And as we know, age and experience and mystery are the big things in wizard society, and Rashid has the most of all three.
Not just prejudice because of Margaret Le Fey, but also because of Justin Du Morne being his teacher, not to mention those who know about Harry being star born, and Harry murdering his master in highly unusual circumstances. The first most of the council hear about him is this warlock who killed a highly respected warden who supposedly went dark side according to the account of the very person who killed him. Harry didn't start off well at all, and has only made it harder on himself. Not all his fault, but that's just how it is.
--- Quote ---And should he? Really? Who was in control in Peace Talks, Eb or Harry? Who understood from the beginning that he didn't have a chance toe to toe with Eb and figured out a way around it?
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Oh no, I don't think Harry should hold back at all if they push him. But it will play into the hands of those who wish the Council to fall. I am not so sure he built his little decoy to defeat Eb specifically so much as have a decent chance of fooling whatever horrible fight he knew he would encounter. I don't see how he could have known he was going to duel Ebenezar.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I don't think he was judging. I think he can see which way the river is flowing though, and he commented on it. A warning to Harry. Don't forget, Harry's did go "On" and low and behold went to the person he had sold himself to. A big part of the whole exercise was to warn Harry that he was on a slippery path.
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Okay, I found the passage in Ghost Story and I don't think Uriel was warning Harry of anything except reminding him that in the end he will be judged on his choices in life. He also gives Harry a choice of working for him in the In-Between..
page 454 Ghost Story
--- Quote ---"When you say what comes next, what do you mean exactly?"
"The part involving words like forever, eternity, and judgement."
"Oh," I said. "What Comes Next."
"Exactly."
--- End quote ---
Then Harry asks what happens if he accepts Uriel's job offer to work for him? This is where you are perhaps a bit confused. Uriel isn't warning Harry of anything, all he is telling him is he will be judged on how he has lived his life up until on and the choices he has made. How he has lived his life up until that moment is totally up to Harry to judge, not Uriel. However if Harry opts for what comes next he will be judged as we all will when we face Judgement.
Here is what Uriel says; same page 454 Ghost Story
--- Quote ---"So I can stay Between," I said quietly. "Or I can go get on that train,"
"If you do," Uriel said, his eyes intent and serious, "then you accept the consequences for all that you have done while alive. When judged, what you have done will be taken into account. Your fate, ultimately, will be determined by your actions in life."
"You're saying that if I don't work for you, I'll just have to accept what comes?"
"I am saying that you cannot escape the consequences of your choices," he said.
--- End quote ---
No warning of him being on a slippery slope.. No judgement on Uriel's part, just the truth, that if Harry chose what comes next at that moment, he'd have to answer for what he did and chose in life up until that point. It's up to Harry to chose if he wants to face it at that time or not... You will remember that Harry did choose what comes next, though since he really wasn't all dead, he never went on to what comes next.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Mira on April 24, 2024, 06:27:24 PM ---Okay, I found the passage in Ghost Story and I don't think Uriel was warning Harry of anything except reminding him that in the end he will be judged on his choices in life. He also gives Harry a choice of working for him in the In-Between..
page 454 Ghost Story
Then Harry asks what happens if he accepts Uriel's job offer to work for him? This is where you are perhaps a bit confused. Uriel isn't warning Harry of anything, all he is telling him is he will be judged on how he has lived his life up until on and the choices he has made. How he has lived his life up until that moment is totally up to Harry to judge, not Uriel. However if Harry opts for what comes next he will be judged as we all will when we face Judgement.
Here is what Uriel says; same page 454 Ghost Story
No warning of him being on a slippery slope.. No judgement on Uriel's part, just the truth, that if Harry chose what comes next at that moment, he'd have to answer for what he did and chose in life up until that point. It's up to Harry to chose if he wants to face it at that time or not... You will remember that Harry did choose what comes next, though since he really wasn't all dead, he never went on to what comes next.
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My apologies, I was confused. I conflated the conversation Harry has with Jack Murphy with the conversation Harry has with Uriel. Captain Murphy says "with your record, son, you could just as easily find yourself on a south bound train."
But I do think Uriel does warn Harry. He says "you cannot escape the consequences of your choices." That's a pretty big warning to me.
I am not sure I agree though that Harry didn't face What Comes Next. That was what came next, for Harry. At least at that point. There'll be another Next at some point, unless Harry achieves immortality (and even then it's not assured).
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