The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Does Thomas get a free pass?
Mira:
--- Quote from: g33k on March 19, 2024, 01:00:18 AM ---Odin isn't Fae.
The Kringlemantle is: -- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/... Search for "Kringle" on the page
Just like Harry himself isn't Fae, but the WK mantel is.
--- End quote ---
But then Jim goes on in the next line to say;
--- Quote ---His mantle, yes, is part of the Winter Court. Which does not necessarily mean that he himself is Fae as much as the fact that his mantle is. While he’s there, he’s got to pay deference to Mab. If Mab gives him a command, he has to obey it.
2013 KC signing Q&A
If you’re (a powerful immortal being) in the real world, well, the problem is that you’re in the world, and you’re kind of mortal, and something could come along and try and whack you, if they’re fast enough, or good enough, or lucky enough. Which makes Odin a kind of special guy, because he doesn’t mind it, he thinks it’s awesome.
--- End quote ---
What I don't understand, is in the Q&A, Jim calls Kringle a "mantle" but in the book he calls Kringle a "person," in the body of Odin. Plus a lot of talk about protocol. Which brings me to what Jim says next about Odin, how I read it is while in theory Kringle has to obey Mab, Odin/Kringle doesn't mind giving her the finger on occasion if her agenda doesn't match his. In Skin Game their agendas matched, what would be interesting is if Mab gave Kringle an order which didn't match Odin's agenda.. Then we would see how readily Kringle would obey Mab.. That's where all the talk of protocol to prevent conflict comes in I think.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on March 19, 2024, 02:26:12 PM --- ... What I don't understand, is in the Q&A, Jim calls Kringle a "mantle" but in the book he calls Kringle a "person," in the body of Odin. Plus a lot of talk about protocol.
--- End quote ---
Harry is an "unreliable narrator," and has limited understanding of things.
I think you are inferring more from & about the Harry-POV than actually is stated.
The WoJ is clear: "Kringle" is a faerie mantle (specifically, Winterfae).
--- Quote from: Mira on March 19, 2024, 02:26:12 PM --- ... Which brings me to what Jim says next about Odin, how I read it is while in theory Kringle has to obey Mab, Odin/Kringle doesn't mind giving her the finger on occasion if her agenda doesn't match his. In Skin Game their agendas matched, what would be interesting is if Mab gave Kringle an order which didn't match Odin's agenda.. Then we would see how readily Kringle would obey Mab.. That's where all the talk of protocol to prevent conflict comes in I think.
--- End quote ---
Odin knows the trick of taking off a mantle without dying, of holding onto it, of putting it back on again at need. If Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle, he has to obey Mab; if Odin isn't willing to obey Mab, he just takes off the Kringlemantle (and loses the Christmas-y Kringlepowers... but he's still f'ing Odin the Allfather, who was ancient before mortal-Mab first joined the fae; and things probably just got really tense...) .
Harry doesn't stop being Harry, just because he's got the WK mantle (I'm expecting him to learn the off-and-on mantle trick from Odin).
Reading between the lines, I think Odin & Mab probably both put in a bit of effort to see to it that Odin's interests do not seriously conflict with Mab's interests, during the time that Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle: neither one of them wants that conflict, but neither one of them could avoid it under the rightwrong circumstances.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Harry is an "unreliable narrator," and has limited understanding of things.
I think you are inferring more from & about the Harry-POV than actually is stated.
--- End quote ---
You are saying that Harry was quoting Vadderung/Odin wrong.. Possible, but then again we will have to see.
--- Quote ---Odin knows the trick of taking off a mantle without dying, of holding onto it, of putting it back on again at need. If Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle, he has to obey Mab; if Odin isn't willing to obey Mab, he just takes off the Kringlemantle (and loses the Christmas-y Kringlepowers... but he's still f'ing Odin the Allfather, who was ancient before mortal-Mab first joined the fae; and things probably just got really tense...) .
--- End quote ---
Which really makes Vadderung/Odin's point doesn't it. Protocol, in other words while wearing the Kringlemantle, Kringle has to obey Mab, but only as long as Mab's agenda goes along with Odin. If it doesn't, Odin simply drops the Kringlemantle, AND he doesn't have to obey Mab. And yes, things would get tense really quick, so it is all handled very diplomatically, through protocol because Odin or Kringle/Odin doesn't need to duel Mab as Vadderung/Odin points out.
--- Quote ---Reading between the lines, I think Odin & Mab probably both put in a bit of effort to see to it that Odin's interests do not seriously conflict with Mab's interests, during the time that Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle: neither one of them wants that conflict, but neither one of them could avoid it under the rightwrong circumstances.
--- End quote ---
Again, protocol, so on the surface Kringle has to obey Mab as a member of Winter, but since he is also Odin, he can drop the mantle ,and tell her to go fish at anytime which wouldn't be good.. So it is in the best interest of both to play nice, Mab is never going to command Kringle to do anything that Odin would really object to..
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on March 20, 2024, 01:15:32 PM --- You are saying that Harry was quoting Vadderung/Odin wrong.. Possible, but then again we will have to see ...
--- End quote ---
No, I'm saying that Harry was understanding Vadderung/Odin wrong.
I quote Obi-Wan "It was true... from a certain point of view."
Odin doesn't want to just come out and say some of this outright. He wants Harry to come to the understanding with a minimum of prompting from outside powers.
Here's the thing: "Kringle" is a person... but only while Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle. That "person" doesn't exist when Odin "takes off" the mantle, because "Kringle" (the person) is specifically and only the person who is wearing the Kringlemantle.
OutsideIn:
To much off topic. Let's start other threads
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