The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Great another starborn theory, this time with vampires
Mira:
--- Quote from: g33k on February 02, 2024, 07:27:35 PM ---Ah, I see; TYVM!
To me, the phrase "Red Court" is a bit ambiguous: you might mean "any Rampire, or all collectively," but IMHO it largely implies "the Rampire leadership/nobility" (i.e. leaning in on the Court element). So I had understood you to have meant that the leadership once was composed of half-turned.
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But who half-turned them?
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on February 02, 2024, 02:50:33 PM --- ... RCVs can also apparently choose who they want to feed upon until they die, and those they want to half-turn. Bianca's secretary was not a vampire, nor was she half-turned, and apparently Bianca did sip her blood from time to time. The secretary apparently went along with it because whatever it is in RCV venom, she felt narcotic pleasure and so did Bianca ...
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Yes, Harry himself has experienced the narcotic pleasure of Rampire-venom (several times), and attests to the intense and immediate euphoria & loss of judgement.
Rampires -- at least the higher levels of them -- often had "harems" or "herds" from whom they eat lightly but widely, keeping them all addicted to the pleasure but seldom taking any of them to the half-Ramp stage, nor killing them.
--- Quote from: Mira on February 02, 2024, 02:50:33 PM --- ... when things went to hell many were killed outright and others like Susan were half-turned. Then it seems to come down to will, some join the resistance and others go on to kill and become full vampires.
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I think feeding-until-dead can be deliberate, or from loss-of-control. It's less clear what causes the "half-turned" phenomenon... does it have to be intentional? Does it happen automatically, unless suppressed? Etc.
What a newly-turned half-Ramp does with their status is highly-dependent on a bunch of different things.
People like Martin were longtime (human) servants of the Rampires, and were deliberately half-turned, then coached / supported / controlled through their initial bloodlust (eating lightly but not killing) until they could control it themselves. I think the Fellowship of St. Giles does something similar, for newly-turned who come under their influence.
Harry managed to coach Susan enough that she could hold it off, but she wasn't able to consume any blood to sate the hunger, so the urges were getting worse and worse. We don't know how Susan managed to get her hunger under control after the climactic battle in Grave Peril, before she left Chicago. It seems very likely to me that the Fellowship contacted her there in Chicago, in the aftermath of the Velvet Room burning down (they likely had Bianca's under surveillance, because of all the Red Court activity surrounding her elevation to the nobility; they might have picked up Susan's trail there). This is yet another open question in the series.
It's also very possible that -- in all the carnage after Bianca's battle with Harry -- Susan was able to sate the bloodlust from the freshly-dead, not have to actually perform a killing. That might have given her the time she needed.
--- Quote from: Mira on February 02, 2024, 02:50:33 PM --- ... I don't think that every RCV started out as human and was half turned, is there a word of Jim on this? ...
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That's just how it works:
A human has to get infected/implanted with a Ramp-spirit before they become a full Rampire. At that point, they're half-turned.
They may stay in that state indefinitely, or they can turn full-Ramp very soon; but AFAIK they always have that state of being half-turned: there's no way for a human to go from "just human" to "full Rampire" without -- at some point, however briefly -- being a half-turned who performs a killing.
I don't think we have WoJ on how short that half-Ramp stage can be, but I think a single day or so is likely (it might be something specific like "until the next nightfall" or the like, meaning that someone turned just before the deadline may be able to go full-Ramp in just minutes, while someone turned just after the deadline needs to wait almost 24 hours... but this is entirely speculative, I know of no canonical or WoJ info on the point).
--- Quote from: Mira on February 02, 2024, 02:50:33 PM --- ... Nor do I remember exactly where is says that her promotion gave Bianca "permission" to turn and half-turn humans... Or did her promotion merely give her authority to choose who she wanted to recruit and who she wanted merely as food? ...
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I think we infer quite a bit about Rampire political and power structures from bits & pieces here and there. I don't recall any specific canon/WoJ statements as to what Bianca's new powers would be, and thus don't know whether they were mostly "legalistic" permissions, or were extra Ramp-mojo magic/psychic stuff, or both.
--- Quote from: Mira on February 02, 2024, 02:50:33 PM --- ...Another interesting point if I remember correctly from the party, one of the things that Harry and Michael discovered was that the wine was either drugged or poisoned, so many of the young recruits weren't even considered suitable as food.
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It was a warning from Thomas: there was Rampire-venom in the drink.
Michael hadn't been drinking, I think; and Harry forced himself to throw it up.
I think the human servants & "party snacks" circulating at the party had been being recruited for some weeks -- maybe even months -- by Bianca, so she'd have a lavish offering at her ball. Plus of course her longtime servants, who I think were largely tasked with managing these new recruits. I think there was a mix of down-and-out homeless off the streets (meant largely as "just food" for indiscriminate eaters like Blampires) with "rebellious (but attractive) youth" from local colleges &c (for aesthetes like Whampires).
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on February 02, 2024, 08:05:15 PM ---But who half-turned them?
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I am presuming the Red King was the first-ever Rampire, the Patient Zero of Rampirism.
He was, I presume, infected (half-turned) by one of those slimy, leathery, "batlike creatures" that the Rampires naturally are... but one who had never had a human host.
My working theory is that those beings come from the Nevernever (being related to the Ick). The Red King could have either summoned it to the mortal world, or encountered it in the Nevernever & come home infected (or even performed that First Kill there in the Nevernever, and come home as a full Rampire).
It's also possible the RK wasn't the first-ever, but that other early Rampires -- and any descendent lineages -- died out (or were killed-off in ancient Ramp-v-Ramp intertribal warfare).
I don't think anyone (any mortals) in the Dresdenverse knows those ancient details... wasn't the Red King multi-thousands of years old? And I don't think WoJ has ever gone that deep into those details. He may not even have decided them.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I think feeding-until-dead can be deliberate, or from loss-of-control. It's less clear what causes the "half-turned" phenomenon... does it have to be intentional? Does it happen automatically, unless suppressed? Etc.
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I think in the case of the half-turned it is a little bit of both. A good example of intentional is Susan, the impression I got from Bianca is that she did it deliberately as revenge for her secretary. Her thinking I supposed, knowing there was no cure that a half turned Susan would make Harry suffer for a very long time. However Justine was spared, was this simply because they hadn't had a chance to either feed upon her or half-turn her? Or since she was the girlfriend of Thomas they didn't want to risk pissing off the White Court? In other cases motives for half-turning a victim is less clear, especially when many go on to join the Fellowship of St. Giles which is an anti-RVC resistance group devoted to limiting the damage that the Red Court does. So why would they do that?
--- Quote ---Harry managed to coach Susan enough that she could hold it off, but she wasn't able to consume any blood to sate the hunger, so the urges were getting worse and worse. We don't know how Susan managed to get her hunger under control after the climactic battle in Grave Peril, before she left Chicago. It seems very likely to me that the Fellowship contacted her there in Chicago, in the aftermath of the Velvet Room burning down (they likely had Bianca's under surveillance, because of all the Red Court activity surrounding her elevation to the nobility; they might have picked up Susan's trail there). This is yet another open question in the series.
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I don't think Harry did anything to coach Susan in resistance to the venom. I think controlling hunger, emotions, impulses connected with newly born "super powers," i.e. strength, speed,and longevity take time to kick in. I agree that the Fellowship more than likely had Bianca under surveillance and perhaps even Harry as well, on the look out for the half-turned. I believe Harry was in the hospital for a bit, and during that time the Fellowship might have made contact with her, Yes, Susan was of Hispanic heritage, but I don't think it mere coincidence that she fled to Central American where the Red Court strongholds were and where the Fellowship is the most active.
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Thanks, I reread the passage and it is very interesting from the standpoint of while mentally/emotionally he got excited about the prospect of Lea having a way to cure both Susan and Martin and possibly all the half-turned, he didn't leap to the prospect of agreeing to a bargain with her. Not I think because he didn't want to cure them and no doubt would give up a lot for a cure, but because he knew from her answer that she wasn't really offering a cure.. She said vaguely that such knowledge would really be a "treasure." She was willing to bargain "knowledge," but she wasn't specific as to what that knowledge was... The Fae cannot lie, but the reason why it is so dangerous to bargain with them is that they are willing to let you lie to yourself! She agreed that such knowledge was very valuable, but she never said what the knowledge was she had, or that she had any knowledge beyond putting them asleep. Harry had already spent a year searching for a cure, Bob had told him there was none. While putting a RCV or half-turned RCV to sleep was useful, it wasn't all that useful and Harry realized that. On the subject of bargains it is also interesting as to how much Lea really did do to keep Harry safe as per her agreement with his mother.. Also the comment about Margaret not being able to sleep after she acquired the roadmap gem of the Nevernever and how dangerous it was.. Why would that be?
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