The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Fae Rankings
vincentric:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 17, 2023, 12:42:56 PM ---If Maeve was that obviously crazy and infected, why would Harry even believe the merest hint that it was Mab who was the crazy one?
Because Harry still didn't think that it was possible for Maeve to tell a direct lie. He only discovered that at the denouement of CD.
--- End quote ---
g33k:
--- Quote from: Con on October 17, 2023, 08:59:28 AM ---... The Fae Courts are running their own version of the Cold War ...
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There's a decent simile, there.
But I don't think it's literal, and the simile breaks down if pushed too far.
The fae are almost completely constrained by their own natures, by their rules. Toot cannot resist pizza; Mab cannot resist taking vengeance for slights and wrongs done to her. Both must obey Faerie Law when acting, when speaking.
The real-world "cold war" was an evolving thing, coming almost straight out of the WWII mindset into the ideological communist-vs-capitalist mindset, with the specter of nuclear warfare making both sides very-unwilling to provoke a "hot" war.
The Fae go to war -- hot war -- every year, at the turning of the seasons.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Because Harry still didn't think that it was possible for Maeve to tell a direct lie. He only discovered that at the denouement of CD.
--- End quote ---
Exactly, and that little fact was either unknown to the Mothers, or they didn't reveal it to Harry for their own reasons. One reason could be that they were testing him, right out of the gate, when he arrived, either he freed himself or he'd end up in Mother Winter's stew pot. Of course by the time Maeve was lying to Lilly, was it still Maeve or mostly Nemesis in Maeve's body?
--- Quote ---The Fae go to war -- hot war -- every year, at the turning of the seasons.
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No, I don't think they do, the only reason there was possible hot war in Summer Knight was because Aurora had upset the balance which affected what happened at the stone table at the turning of the seasons.
--- Quote ---No; you're putting words into my mouth. It was NOT "that obvious."
Mab had multiple years to observe Maeve -- her words, her actions, her lack of actions -- and determine what had happened.
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Not putting any words in your mouth.. If something wasn't THAT obvious, it is because her behavior was bat guano normally before she was infected! Easy to ignore the normal, which Mab mostly did until it was too late. Maeve was the perfect host for Nemesis to deeply infiltrate unnoticed into the Winter Court.
--- Quote ---Harry only has a few brief scenes with her, less than an hour all-told across the years (up until the Birthday Party scene with Sarissa). It wasn't nearly enough for him to figure out who's "crazy," who's acting Winter-y vs who's acting Nemesis-y (Harry doesn't even have the name "Nemesis" to hang his theories upon, as of the Birthday Party!) .
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True, but when Maeve is acting like a sadistic nymphomaniac voyeur, it doesn't take long to figure out that something is a bit off with her.. On the other hand Mab is ordering him to execute her daughter, the Winter Lady, without explaining why, would also seem a bit insane, outward appearances to the contrary that she wasn't insane or more than her usual murderous self.
--- Quote ---Having "mommy issues" and generally being ... shall we call it "inadequate"? ... at the Winter Lady gig: this does not qualify either as "bat guano crazy" nor "nemfection." And all of that was out of Harry's sight (but not Mab's).
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Oh it was more than inadequate, as I said, look to Maeve's little court under Chicago.. Out of her own guilt perhaps, Mab chose to ignore and indulge her daughter's "normal" behavior until she realized that Maeve was beginning to undermine her, then she realized that she was infected, too late.
--- Quote ---Nemfection is good at subtlety, at passing unnoticed. I expect there were many things that Nemfected!Maeve could slip past Mab as just "that's just Maeve having mommy-issues again" and "Maeve not doing her job, again." Eventually, of course, Mab did notice that it wasn't just "Maeve being Maeve;" we don't know how long from that initial "notice" until Mab realized Maeve was Nemfected... It was book 8, Proven Guilty, where we saw Lea the Sidhe-cicle; but Mab never spoke. I think it isn't until book 10, Small Favor, that we see Rage!Mab speaking through malks, or causing head-trauma with her angry-voice. But we don't actually know when it was that Mab realized Maeve was Nemfected
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Yes, we do... Small Favor, the chapel, Mab had a real, "Oh Crap!" Moment.. Because that's when she put it all together, Harry asks her about it in Cold Days..
page 503
--- Quote ---" A few years back, you got angry. So angry that when you spoke it made people bleed from the ears. That was why. Because you figured out that the adversary had taken Maeve. And it hurt. To know that the adversary had gotten to her."
"It was the knife," Mab said.
--- End quote ---
We have the moment in Small Favor though we are a bit misdirected. Mab is talking to Harry in the chapel though her malk quite calmly actually, about her and the "Watchman" having a common enemy. Harry mentions "Thorned Namshiel." That's the moment Mab goes into a rage. page 403 Small Favor
--- Quote ---Mab's eyes flashed with sudden fury and frost literallyformed over every surface of the chapel, including my eyelashes. Mab snarled in her own voice. It sounded hideous--not melodious, because it was as rich and full and musical as it had ever been. But it was filled with such rage, such fury, such pain and such hate that every vowel clawed at my skin, and every consonant felt like someone taking a staple gun to my ears.
"I am Sidhe," she hissed. "I am Queen of Air and Darkness. I am Mab." Her chin lifted, her eyes wide and white around the rippling colors of her irises--utterly insane. "And I repay my debts, mortal, All of them."
--- End quote ---
It wasn't the mention of old Thorny that set her off, it was the realization that Nemesis had not just infected Lea, possibly her as well, but her daughter and was still making trouble, and she hadn't realized it.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 17, 2023, 02:56:01 PM ---Yes, we do... Small Favor, the chapel, Mab had a real, "Oh Crap!" Moment.. Because that's when she put it all together, Harry asks her about it in Cold Days...
. Mab is talking to Harry in the chapel though her malk quite calmly actually, about her and the "Watchman" having a common enemy. Harry mentions "Thorned Namshiel." That's the moment Mab goes into a rage.
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No; the malk-voice was the sign of her rage. She could act calmly (icy control -- it's a Mab thing), but not quite speak calmly.
Mab was already using the malk-voice back at the beginning of Small Favor (in chapter 5).
She was already in an earbleeding rage... she had already realised what had happened to Maeve.
But we don't know how long she had known... she entered book-10 already knowing, and she spoke normally back in Book 4, but that's a loooooooooong stretch of time where she might have realized.
Later, during the scene in the chapel (the last chapter, IIRC)... honestly, I don't think we know what made her self-control slip, made her use her own voice.
Harry mentioned the assault on Arctis Tor, and named Thorned Namshiel. Mab never confirmed the assault -- nor Thorny -- as causing her rage.
She permitted Harry to assume. That -- right there -- is classic Faerie misdirection: not-lying and leaving the mortal believing something that is un-true; thinking Mab herself had confirmed it!
The exchange is so typical of faerie deception, I figure it at far less than 50/50 chances that Thorny was the Fallen at Arctis Tor.
I have a low-key WAG that what slipped Mab's self-control was her Emissary and soon-to-be Knight being so stupid!
Mira:
--- Quote ---No; the malk-voice was the sign of her rage. She could act calmly (icy control -- it's a Mab thing), but not quite speak calmly.
--- End quote ---
She wasn't in a rage when she was speaking through her malk, the subject matter had nothing to do with anger.. Her and "The Watcher" had a common enemy, if Harry continued to refuse to become her knight, she'd get Thomas, because being in love as he was, that made him human enough to be her knight. When she started talking in her own voice that is when all hell broke loose because she lost control...
However in the context of things the above moment while important, it is what happened after that we don't know about. As in, what did Mab do to try and help Maeve? Could she do anything to help her? We know for several months between Changes and Cold Days she was in a cave on Demonreach trying to keep Harry alive.. What happened during that time? Were those the critical months that put Maeve beyond help so her death was the only solution? If so, will Mab end up holding Harry responsible?
--- Quote ---But we don't know how long she had known... she entered book-10 already knowing, and she spoke normally back in Book 4, but that's a loooooooooong stretch of time where she might have realized.
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If she had really known, Mab would have done something about it simply because she couldn't afford to have the adversary hanging out in her court. We have all gone though events where we know something isn't quite right, but we cannot put our finger on it. Then that "eureka" or "oh shit" moment happens when your brain actually is able to put two and two together and get four.. When it is something you should have known, but didn't, you get really pissed about it, that's what happened to Mab. Even if she was angry as you say when she was talking through her malk, she wasn't pissed.. When things finally added up in her brain and she got four, she got pissed, things turned to ice and ears bled.
--- Quote ---Later, during the scene in the chapel (the last chapter, IIRC)... honestly, I don't think we know what made her self-control slip, made her use her own voice.
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We do, because Harry asks her about it in Cold Days, and she answers, "it was the knife." The knife wasn't the subject of conversation when she spoke through her malk.. However you can hold a conversation on one subject, and be thinking on another at the same time.. We've all had those kinds of conversations where we are talking, suddenly the other person exclaims, "oh shit!" Or it is you who is talking and you realize you had forgotten something or realize something unrelated to the conversation, "oh shit, that's what happened!"
--- Quote ---Harry mentioned the assault on Arctis Tor, and named Thorned Namshiel. Mab never confirmed the assault -- nor Thorny -- as causing her rage.
--- End quote ---
No, she didn't, because it wasn't.. That isn't to say she wasn't angry about the assault, she was, her and the "the Watcher" had a common enemy.. But that didn't cause her to lose control.
--- Quote ---She permitted Harry to assume. That -- right there -- is classic Faerie misdirection: not-lying and leaving the mortal believing something that is un-true; thinking Mab herself had confirmed it!
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I don't think it was part of her calculation in that moment, and anyway there was no reason for her to direct Harry one way or the other about the attack on Arctis Tor, not during the chapel conversation in Small Favor. She simply lost it when she realized what had happened to her daughter and why.. "it was the knife." She freely admits that to Harry in Cold Days, and as Harry said,
--- Quote ---" A few years back, you got angry. So angry that when you spoke it made people bleed from the ears. That was why. Because you figured out that the adversary had taken Maeve. And it hurt. To know that the adversary had gotten to her."
"It was the knife," Mab said.
--- End quote ---
No quibble from Mab, as straight forward an answer as you are going to get from her, "it was the knife."
--- Quote ---The exchange is so typical of faerie deception, I figure it at far less than 50/50 chances that Thorny was the Fallen at Arctis Tor.
I have a low-key WAG that what slipped Mab's self-control was her Emissary and soon-to-be Knight being so stupid!
--- End quote ---
No, if it was about faerie deception, Mab wouldn't have lost control.. If she had thought Harry was being so stupid, she would have told him so.. Oh she was busy trying to move the goal posts a little so she could still claim a favor from Harry, i.e. become her knight, she even suggested Thomas for the job to persuade him, but she didn't lose control..
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