The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Fae Rankings
g33k:
--- Quote from: vincentric on October 16, 2023, 06:47:23 PM --- ...
I think it's highly likely that both Titania and Mab knew that she was Nemfected by the time of SK but were unable or unwilling to take direct action against her ...
--- End quote ---
I could see "unable." If we are to believe Bob, the Ladies are un-killable even to the Queens, except at the right Conjunctions. Conjunctions can be times (such as All Hallows Eve) or places (such as the Stone Table). But, even more than this issue, the Fae are circumscribed with all manner of rules and prohibitions; if Aurora wasn't violating any rule that mandated a death-sentence, it's possible that the Queens were unable to kill her because of Faerie rules.
But the theory (that the Queens knew) doesn't really hold together: your theory posits that the Queens didn't need investigation-work done (just execution). Harry's pretty badass, but for straight murderization there's better candidates out there (Kincaid, Genoskwa, and I'm sure many as-yet unmet).
Mira:
--- Quote ---But the theory (that the Queens knew) doesn't really hold together: your theory posits that the Queens didn't need investigation-work done (just execution). Harry's pretty badass, but for straight murderization there's better candidates out there (Kincaid, Genoskwa, and I'm sure many as-yet unmet).
--- End quote ---
Did Mab ask for an investigation to have Maeve executed? How about when she told Harry to kill Molly if something happened to her so Molly wouldn't get the Queen mantle? So no, they don't need an investigation..
Interesting passage in Cold Days, we know that Mab had ordered Harry to kill Maeve, but was it really Maeve/Nemesis setting Mab up to be killed so Maeve/Nemesis gets Mab's mantle and runs the Winter Court.. two passes really page 325
--- Quote ---"Don't be coy,child," Mother Summer sniffed. "What my counter part knows, I know. Mab commanded you to slay Maeve..What do you think will happen if you disobey her."
I walked around for a while before I answered,"It depends whether of not Mab's still around when the smoke clears, I guess," I said. "Id she is ...upset. I'll wind up like Lloyd Slate. If she isn't"
"Yes?"
"Maeve assumes Mab's mantle and becomes the new Winter Queen."
--- End quote ---
Then on 326 it gets a little confusing,
--- Quote ---"Quite so," said Mother Summer. "And if you do heed Mab's command?"
"Maeve's mantle gets passed on to someone else," I said. "And if. . . the adversary ? Can I say that safely?"
Mother Summer smiled. "That's why we use that word rather than a name. Sir Knight. Yes."
"If the adversary has taken Mab," I said, "then it gets to choose an agent to take the Winter Lady's mantle. Two-thirds of the Winter Court will be under its influence.
--- End quote ---
What I think Harry meant to say was if Mab is killed, Maeve/Nemesis gets to be Queen, and gets to pick someone else who is infected to become Lady... A really very clever plan.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 16, 2023, 10:53:46 PM --- Did Mab ask for an investigation to have Maeve executed? How about when she told Harry to kill Molly if something happened to her so Molly wouldn't get the Queen mantle? So no, they don't need an investigation..
--- End quote ---
It's not a procedural matter, as it is with mortal justice. The Faerie Courts don't "need an investigation" to make a judgement.
With the order to kill Maeve, Mab already knew of Maeve's Nemfection. She had done her grieving and raging, and settled to the kill. But the Winter Knight (or another mortal) had to do the deed, because faerie rules are specific and unrelenting.
Killing Molly was more "advice" than an "order." Mab's assessment was that Molly was too weak (and/or ignorant) to serve as nuMab, with an Apocalypse incoming. I'm pretty sure Mab's wrong about Molly being too weak... but she very well may be too ignorant... Mab, after all, has spent a millenium on plotting and planning and gathering info & intel... and that's all in Mab's head, not in the Mantle. At least if Lea became WQ, there would be a decent body of experience and "ancient wicked faerie" fighting to protect Creation.
But the Summer Knight issue needed investigating. Aurora knew how to hide the SK-Mantle, even from Titania (and if from SQ-Titania, then certainly from WQ-Mab). Suspicion was on Mab; if the Queens had known the truth, that wouldn't be so.
Mira:
--- Quote ---It's not a procedural matter, as it is with mortal justice. The Faerie Courts don't "need an investigation" to make a judgement.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---But the theory (that the Queens knew) doesn't really hold together: your theory posits that the Queens didn't need investigation-work done (just execution). Harry's pretty badass, but for straight murderization there's better candidates out there (Kincaid, Genoskwa, and I'm sure many as-yet unmet).
--- End quote ---
There seems to be a contradiction here^ Either the Fae need investigation or they don't.. I disagree about "moral judgement" that is important to them. Because she was accused and the consequences of her not being able to clear herself, Mab needed a first rate investigator..
--- Quote ---With the order to kill Maeve, Mab already knew of Maeve's Nemfection. She had done her grieving and raging, and settled to the kill. But the Winter Knight (or another mortal) had to do the deed, because faerie rules are specific and unrelenting.
--- End quote ---
But not as simple as it sounds, as Mother Summer points out.. Harry is her Knight but he uses his own moral judgement, also he had also seen Mab in "treatment" along side of Lea, and saw the Knife in Mab's belt. Maeve was bat guano crazy before she was infected, and didn't behave too differently after she was infected, who is to say that it wasn't Mab who was really the infected one trying to get rid of her uninfected daughter.
--- Quote ---Killing Molly was more "advice" than an "order." Mab's assessment was that Molly was too weak (and/or ignorant) to serve as nuMab, with an Apocalypse incoming. I'm pretty sure Mab's wrong about Molly being too weak... but she very well may be too ignorant... Mab, after all, has spent a millenium on plotting and planning and gathering info & intel... and that's all in Mab's head, not in the Mantle. At least if Lea became WQ, there would be a decent body of experience and "ancient wicked faerie" fighting to protect Creation.
--- End quote ---
Advice?
--- Quote ---But the Summer Knight issue needed investigating. Aurora knew how to hide the SK-Mantle, even from Titania (and if from SQ-Titania, then certainly from WQ-Mab). Suspicion was on Mab; if the Queens had known the truth, that wouldn't be so.
--- End quote ---
Again, not that simple, there was a whole conspiracy and power struggle behind the murder of the Summer Knight.. A simple announcement by the Queens wouldn't have been enough.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 17, 2023, 04:55:41 AM ---There seems to be a contradiction here^ Either the Fae need investigation or they don't.. I disagree about "moral judgement" that is important to them. Because she was accused and the consequences of her not being able to clear herself, Mab needed a first rate investigator.
--- End quote ---
Couple of points, here:
#1 -- I never said "moral" judgment, but mortal judgement.
Mortals' jurisprudence calls for cops to investigate, lawyers to advocate, judge & jury to render judgement; and even after all that, possible court-appeals, and even extra-judicial stays/clemency/pardons/etc.
The Fae... notsomuch. Mab shows up in black, her Aspect of Judgement... lives are on the line right now.
#2 -- Context matters.
Humans "need" all the steps, every time. Even when the facts are clear and the evidence clear & overwhelming.
The fae only need an investigation when the facts aren't clear.
In SK, Mab (Winter) was the "obvious suspect" (context) and nobody was stepping up with facts to the contrary (context). The fae are not omniscient. So Mab went to an investigator (and a mortal Emissary, as the Knights are Mortal & the murder & theft occurred in the mortal realm, not Faerie realms.
By CD, Mab had known of Maeve's Nemfection for years; the context of her kill-order was totally different. Mab didn't need an "investigation," here (she only needed a Winter Knight who was up to doing the job)... It was Harry himself who felt the need to investigate (and Jim himself, who needs an investigation for Harry to do).
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