The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Ebenezars journal
Mira:
--- Quote from: vincentric on September 24, 2022, 04:47:33 PM ---I think the main difference is where a particular mantle stands on the power scale, what created it and more specifically if it grants immortality. There are capital M and small m mantles.
Mother, Lady or perhaps even Kringle grant immortality. They have much greater restraints on their holders freedom of action. Warden and Winter Knight are either created by or meant to be held by mortals. Winter Knight is more powerful than Warden(It works everywhere) but it does constrain Harry to obey Winter Law to maintain access.
--- End quote ---
In one sense the mantle of the Warden of the Island makes Harry more powerful than the Winter Mantle. The Winter Mantle so far only seems to make him physically stronger, but is hard to control and as you say he has to follow Winter's rules, or he should. Where as Warden, using the tools, the ley line and with Alfred at his disposal, he can put Titans away, something he was unable to do as a mere Winter Knight.
Ed0517:
--- Quote from: Mira on September 24, 2022, 05:08:53 PM ---In one sense the mantle of the Warden of the Island makes Harry more powerful than the Winter Mantle. The Winter Mantle so far only seems to make him physically stronger, but is hard to control and as you say he has to follow Winter's rules, or he should. Where as Warden, using the tools, the ley line and with Alfred at his disposal, he can put Titans away, something he was unable to do as a mere Winter Knight.
--- End quote ---
I think it depends on location - the Knight mantle seems to have given Harry much more ice magic. He didn't use it nearly so much before. And that goes everywhere. The Warden mantle is only good a few miles from Demonreach - he had to get the titan to the waterfront to trigger. But IN that radius, it is far more powerful. Alfred massively overwhelmed someone who trashed Mab casually. And there is apparently worse in the lower levels. (worse than Ethniu? who is it? Balor? Surtur?)
Mira:
--- Quote from: Ed0517 on September 25, 2022, 04:00:12 AM ---I think it depends on location - the Knight mantle seems to have given Harry much more ice magic. He didn't use it nearly so much before. And that goes everywhere. The Warden mantle is only good a few miles from Demonreach - he had to get the titan to the waterfront to trigger. But IN that radius, it is far more powerful. Alfred massively overwhelmed someone who trashed Mab casually. And there is apparently worse in the lower levels. (worse than Ethniu? who is it? Balor? Surtur?)
--- End quote ---
I think Harry's ice magic is a wash frankly.. Before he was Winter Knight Harry's specialty was fire magic, he was really good a kaboom, now he as Winter Knight he has incorporated ice magic, but I think it is well with in his wheel house. From that stand point, I don't think Harry is doing more powerful magic than he was before, just now one is cold as opposed to hot. I also seem to remember him, I think it was in White Night putting the freeze on a bit of Lake Michigan, that was long before he was Winter Knight.
Conspiracy Theorist:
There is a WOJ that Odin traded his immortality to be able to continue to operate in the mortal world, and took on the Kringle Mantle to regain immortality.
I wonder actually if Odin’s immortality went into the Kringle Mantle. It’s the kind of sneaky thing he would do. Trade in his immortality as a huge sacrifice to be rewarded with the Mantle. I think KrIngle must have a partial intellectus, he knows whether everyone has been naughty or nice I.e. he has knowledge of a persons good and bad deeds, at least over the last year. That would be consistent with the lore and the use of intellectus in the Files. For someone in the Security Business that would be nice. He doesn’t need to vet people. If so he would have known immediately about Marcone picking up the coin. That would suggest he is keeping close to Marcone for that reason, and is doing the same now with Lara.
Everyone at the level of immortal is generally prohibited from living in the Mortal World the exceptions being the Queens, Ladies and Kringle (the Mothers power levels are so great they can’t without warping it). You can give it up, live in the NeverNever, or suffer Demonreach.
Now the Erl King is an immortal but the Wild Hunt rides in the mortal world. Did he undertake Vassallage to Mab to permit this? It surprised me in Battle Ground that he was Mab’s Vassal, but there would have to be some reason why he would agree to be so bound.
The other free- roaming immortals are the Naagloshii, and they are tied to a particular geographical area. If they break that is it Demonreach? There are at least half a dozen in there.
My thought is that the Ladies Mantles were imbued with just enough power to render their wearers immortal. The Queen’s with just enough to avoid reality breaking down too badly around them, the Mother’s with enough for full intellectus.
The Angels are immortal but are again subject to restrictions.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on September 24, 2022, 05:08:53 PM ---In one sense the mantle of the Warden of the Island makes Harry more powerful than the Winter Mantle. The Winter Mantle so far only seems to make him physically stronger, but is hard to control and as you say he has to follow Winter's rules, or he should ...
--- End quote ---
It's a two-edged sword, physically.
Essentially it seems to remove normal, "survival-oriented" physical limits -- it gives the WK routine & effortless access to what's sometimes called "hysterical strength" (the "lift a car off your child" &c strength); and dampen's pain & awareness of injuries.
Of course, those are "survival-oriented" -- Harry is wracking his body with injuries faster than his wizardly "healing factor" can keep up (generally, when something drops the Mantle, he's momentarily incpacitated from the pain). He's killing himself.
I suspect that part of Harry's "meditation" &c in Little Things may have been exploring some self-healing and/or other ways to mitigate the WK-Mantle's propensity to simply burn out the Knights. It may have been as simple as enforcing some rest, in which to heal (or maybe that was just a side-benefit).
But on the mystical side of things, it gives him an automatic & instinctive grasp of ice-magic, on par with (and sometimes superior to) the fire-magic he spent years cultivating. Remember in the climactic fight against the Red King, Harry was in hand-to-hand battle (literally -- grabbing and being grabbed, not even the distance of a sword-fight); previously, Harry has been clear this situation is too-close and too swiftly-changing a situation for him to:
* gather his will
* formulate his spell
* release the spellBut with the Winter mantle -- already corp-a-corps with the mighty Red King (who had millenia of combat experience!) -- Harry was able to create a pair of ice-daggers on his fingertips, to stab the RK. It might "seem" like that's just physical fighting, but it's really not (the biophysics of crafting usable weapons is a real issue).
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