Is Lasciel really a fallen angel?

[Con]

My favourite fan theory is Lasciel was once Ishtar a Bablynoian Goddess of Love and War.... but admittedly Jim has said any fan theory he has to have to learned Ancient Babylonian for is unlikely.

As for Namshiel. From Marcones perspective he tried doing things God's way with the Shroud of Turin trying to wake up coma girl. So he went to the other team. Pretty classic jilted criminal trope logic.

As for Gender in Angels. It's something I've toyed with in my own idea for Angelic characters. Like Raphael could just as easily be Rachael, depending on how much phlegm you put in the p/c-h. Makes for a pretty good non-binary in my head. Plus some Angel names can apply to both genders. Gabriel for instance.

[Yuillegan]

After careful consideration I think this question is going nowhere. I guess it's kind of like asking if water is really wet

Technically water isn't wet. Wet is the property of solid objects when a liquid like water adheres to it.

Secondly, don't insult other people and/or their threads. If you have nothing useful and polite to contribute, then don't post at all.

I have warned you before, if you can't follow that basic precept then further action will be taken.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Technically water isn't wet. Wet is the property of solid objects when a liquid like water adheres to it.

Sorry to nitpick, but ice cubes in water is a solid object (water at the freezing point) where a liquid like water (above the freezing point)  adheres to the solid.

So yes, you can have an interesting, polite, entertaining and reasoned debate on how wet is water.

[morriswalters]

Water physics?

[Yuillegan]

Sorry to nitpick, but ice cubes in water is a solid object (water at the freezing point) where a liquid like water (above the freezing point)  adheres to the solid.

So yes, you can have an interesting, polite, entertaining and reasoned debate on how wet is water.

No need to apologise, it's an interesting discussion to some (myself included).

I think you answer the problem though; ice is water in it's solid state. So we call it ice. Hence is isn't wet, yet it can become wet as well as making something wet.

The key thing with wetness is that a solid and a liquid is required, or that at least is my understanding.

[b4utoo]

I'll don't see how I insulted anyone or thread. I made a statement. It was clearly stated they are the fallen. It really seems your singling me out over a grudge. Because I didn't word it to your liking. Conspiracy Theory goes off in that direction all the time, where were you then?

[b4utoo]

I went and deleted every topic I posted just in case there was a slight chance it would offend anyone.

[Yuillegan]

It really isn't my problem if you can't understand what you did wrong.

I have given you more than enough chances, and instead of learning from them you have reacted childishly.

You were warned, and now you will have to live with the consequences. Failure to adhere to forum rules after repeated warnings results in a ban.

[Ed0517]

The TV show Lucifer had it that Angels self actualised, beyond gender this covered their powers, mortality, wings and ability to reproduce..

Everything would appear to indicate Lasciel is a “Fallen” Angel unless you are saying that there are actually no “Fallen” angels, only angels playing the part on behest of the White God as part of his/her ineffable plan, but how could we know? It’s effing ineffable!

This would mean the Knights of the Cross are nothing but unwitting Participants in the ultimate LARP (except Butters where it is certainly quite witting on his part, he is the biggest geek in the Multiverse).

The other angel we know about is Mac, who retired. Did he retire just because he got fed up with the LARPing? Doesn’t seem to have done him any good, so you would think he would spill the beans and sing like a canary to the mortals.

We did see, briefly, at least two more, in Ghost Story. The security guard, whi shuts down Harry's Sight for his own good, and the Angel sent to escort Forthill to the afterlife if he died. That last angel presented as female.

[g33k]

My favourite fan theory is Lasciel was once Ishtar a Bablynoian Goddess of Love and War.... but admittedly Jim has said any fan theory he has to have to learned Ancient Babylonian for is unlikely.
...

I'm pretty sure "Ishtar" exists in the original (1e) AD&D "Deities & Demigods" book, and Jim's a known gamer.

Also, "Ishtar" is sort of cognate to Astarte & several other middle-eastern goddesses... including Asherah, an ancient Semitic goddess (who may have historically been the consort/wife/etc of Yaweh... )

"Ancient Babylonian" isn't the only way to get to Ishtar (or to one of the other ancient goddesses with links to love and/or eros...) .

[g33k]

... Inhabiting Marcone is like hitting the lottery for a Denarian...

Agreed... long-term, John could become as potent for Namshiel as Nicodemus has been for Anduriel.

... If Mab can, she will hammer him, she owes him and she pays her debts ...

Do we know for sure that it was Namshiel at the assault on Arctis Tor?
I expect that *Mab* knows; but do we?
 

[g33k]

Lasciel is repeatedly called a her or she. The only problem is Angel's are not female. When they took on human form to create nephilim they took on male form. So if she isn't an angel, what is she?

I don't think most Angels even have "gender" in the human sense; when/if they do, I don't think it's exclusively male.

But in the end, it doesn't really matter what real-world pin-dancing we do:  as noted above by @Ed0517, at least one Dresdenverse angel was explicitly seen as female, so we KNOW for a fact they can be female in the Dresdenverse.
 

[morriswalters]

Do we know for sure that it was Namshiel at the assault on Arctis Tor?
I expect that *Mab* knows; but do we?
 

Nothing is ever explicit in the Dresden Files but this is pretty close. Certainly Harry was quick to reveal to her that Marcone had accepted the coin. The is the compelling text.

“The Black Council attack on Arctis Tor,” I said. “One of them used Hellfire.”

Mab showed me her snow-white teeth. “The Watchman and I,” Grimalkin mewled for her, “had a common enemy this day. The enemy could not be allowed to gain the power represented by the child Archive.”

I frowned and thought of the silver hand that had batted the fallen angel and his master sorceries around as if he’d been a stuffed practice dummy. “Thorned Namshiel.”

Mab’s eyes flashed with sudden, cold fury and frost literally formed over every surface of the chapel, including upon my own eyelashes.

“There are others yet who will pay for what they have done,”

[Mira]

Do we know for sure that it was Namshiel at the assault on Arctis Tor?
I expect that *Mab* knows; but do we?
 

 Nothing "confirmed" as in eye witnesses I guess you could say.  However "hellfire" was used and it is implied that that is more of a wizard thing.  Harry, because he is a wizard was able to use it when given access by Lasciel, so it is implied that it was Namshiel who used it at Arctis Tor.  At the same time we don't know who else among the Denarians have that capability.

[morriswalters]

It's not about who can throw hellfire, it's about who could throw hellfire at Arctis Tor.  Thorned Namshiel was granted the power to run the spell at the Shedd, thus he we know he had the power to do it, much in the same way Lily gave Harry the power to throw Summer fire at the Scarecrow and the Wellspring.