The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Harry should have trusted Ramirez
Mira:
--- Quote ---Sure, there is definitely some of that going on. However, Jim did point out that Harry has a very limited idea of what the White Council knows or does, particularly when it comes to the Merlin and the other Senior Council members. So we've got a bit of a biased view as we've only seen things from Harry's narrow perspective. Perhaps Jim will give us some insight to how the operate and their knowledge from a better insiders view (e.g. a short story from the Merlin's perspective or something).
--- End quote ---
We do have the opinion of Rashid on the matter of what the Senior Council knows, if Harry is retelling it correctly. Now to be fair, Rashid was telling him what the Council knows of their roles, but from that one can extrapolate that the Council doesn't know all that much as to how the Winter Court functions.
page 341 Cold Days, Outer Gates
--- Quote ---"I know precisely how it feels to be where you are." He gestured back towards the battleground. "Precisely." He seemed to think about it for a moment, and then nodded. "I will do what I can. If we both survive the next several hours, I will settle matters between you and the Council,which knows only as much about our roles as it needs to--and that isn't much."
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So what goes on at the Outer Gates and within the Winter Court on a "need to know basis" only? Is that what Rashid was saying? Only the very top levels of the Senior Council need to know? Or is Rashid saying that the Council is for the most part closing their eyes and putting their fingers in their ears while singing "la,la,la..."? I think the latter, do they think it will go away if they turn a blind eye to the problem? Or perhaps thirdly Rashid deliberately keeps secrets from the Council because he suspects traitors with in the ranks? Or is he acting on Mab's orders to keep the Council in the dark? So while Harry may have a limited idea of what the Council knows, I'd say that Rashid's idea of what the Council knows, and don't know, is far from limited.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Snark Knight on January 04, 2022, 03:56:12 AM ---I'm not sure he's going to find out at all. But he wanted her to stop pining after him, so her finding an alternative attachment with an age-appropriate good (at the time, anyway) person seems like about the best case scenario. I'd think he'd be more sorry for her tragic predicament.
--- End quote ---
Perhaps he won't but why waste a good bit of drama? He did want that...but would it really surprise us if Harry felt jealousy? He's not known what he wanted before, and he can be a hypocritical as anyone. I agree, he probably will be sorry for her though.
--- Quote from: Arjan on January 04, 2022, 04:45:23 AM ---White council in peace talks. Ebenezer and Harry explain to the rest of the group what einherjar are when they are already there. They are just not well prepared.
Ebenezer does not know what makes them tick. It is just they are monsters, they eat you, don’t trust them (kill them if you get the chance).
--- End quote ---
The group he is explaining to consisted of four Wardens younger than Ramirez, in particular Wild Bill. Harry and Ramirez already know about Einherjaren. If anything, the only one who seems unclear on them is Wild Bill. We could include Yoshimo, but we would be assuming. Chandler is quite well educated, and is around Harry's own age, and likely had a more normal (if not better) magical education (let alone mortal education). Ebenezar's information is sound. So I don't think that argument holds up.
Again, I am not sure what you mean here. I assume by them you mean the White Court, the Sidhe, the Svartalves? To which I would point out that Ebenezar knows quite a lot about them, perhaps more than Dresden (despite Harry's sometimes unique perspective). Unless there is something I am missing, I am not sure how it's clear that Ebenezar doesn't know about them. He might not empathise with them, but that doesn't mean he doesn't understand what they are and how they work.
--- Quote from: Mira on January 04, 2022, 04:52:50 AM ---We do have the opinion of Rashid on the matter of what the Senior Council knows, if Harry is retelling it correctly. Now to be fair, Rashid was telling him what the Council knows of their roles, but from that one can extrapolate that the Council doesn't know all that much as to how the Winter Court functions.
page 341 Cold Days, Outer Gates
So what goes on at the Outer Gates and within the Winter Court on a "need to know basis" only? Is that what Rashid was saying? Only the very top levels of the Senior Council need to know? Or is Rashid saying that the Council is for the most part closing their eyes and putting their fingers in their ears while singing "la,la,la..."? I think the latter, do they think it will go away if they turn a blind eye to the problem? Or perhaps thirdly Rashid deliberately keeps secrets from the Council because he suspects traitors with in the ranks? Or is he acting on Mab's orders to keep the Council in the dark? So while Harry may have a limited idea of what the Council knows, I'd say that Rashid's idea of what the Council knows, and don't know, is far from limited.
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Yes, but we don't have Rashid's perspective. It isn't like the scene is from his point of view. And with regards to that scene in particular, he is referring to what the Council as a whole (not the Senior Council) knows about the role of the Gatekeeper and the Warden of Demonreach, as you point out. The Council at large may not be aware of too much of the internal dynamics of the Winter Court. But there are specialists on the Council like Ancient Mai, and I wouldn't be so sure that the Senior Council wizards know less than Harry. They've been around the longest (with the exception of Cristos) and they have accumulated a hell of a lot of knowledge. Plus there are plenty of senior wizards around who may well know more than the "average" wizard.
I think you're closer with your first idea. It's a need-to-know thing. Think about the 7th Law of Magic. The one they take so seriously that they execute wizards for even researching the Outside. I'd say it's far more of an operational security thing than the Council deciding to be wilfully ignorant. They are far more concerned that angry wizards in trying to gain power might endanger reality. Seems a pretty good reason to not let the Council on the whole know too much about that part of Winter. But I don't believe the Senior Council are unaware of that stuff, to varying levels. Remember, Ebenezar knows about the role of the Warden, and in his diary implies the other Senior Council members do too (because they want to execute Harry) - this is in Turn Coat I believe.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I think you're closer with your first idea. It's a need-to-know thing. Think about the 7th Law of Magic. The one they take so seriously that they execute wizards for even researching the Outside. I'd say it's far more of an operational security thing than the Council deciding to be wilfully ignorant. They are far more concerned that angry wizards in trying to gain power might endanger reality. Seems a pretty good reason to not let the Council on the whole know too much about that part of Winter. But I don't believe the Senior Council are unaware of that stuff, to varying levels. Remember, Ebenezar knows about the role of the Warden, and in his diary implies the other Senior Council members do too (because they want to execute Harry) - this is in Turn Coat I believe.
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The bit that is interesting in that journal, is it is implied that the title Warden of that island, [won't call it Demonreach because that is Harry's name for it] is a mantle. That sets is apart from being a Warden of the White Council, not even if you are the Captain of the Wardens is a mantle. "Mantle" in the Dresdenverse means acquiring a power of some kind, and it can do stuff to the one acquiring it as we see in Harry's struggle with the Winter Knight's Mantle. They seem to know what resides on that island, how dangerous it is, apparently there have been other Wardens in the past. Yet they have chosen to leave that position unfilled.. Why? Rashid seemed to think that Harry could handle the job, and Eb more or less concurred, but that was before Harry also acquired the mantle of Winter Knight. Now you can make the argument that the Merlin, Gatekeeper, and Blackstaff are all mantles, but only Harry as far as we know wears two, and they don't even know that he is also Custodian of the Holy Swords. Which could also be called a mantle of sorts, because of the authority to give them out isn't something one can just assume.
As we saw in Battleground, being Warden of the Island carries huge power. Power I don't think Harry is fully aware of, even yet. I think that is what the Council is afraid of, if indeed Kemmler was the last Warden of the Island. Was he corrupted by it and tapped as Rashid warned Harry against the power of it's leyline?
vincentric:
The Warden is not a Mantle. It is a title that comes with taking up the power and responsibility of watching over the island. Demonreach also hinted in CD that the title predated the the Wardens of the White Council.("First there was one, now there are many.")That implies that the White Council Wardens were founded by one of the early Wardens of Demonreach.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on January 04, 2022, 05:26:28 AM ---The group he is explaining to consisted of four Wardens younger than Ramirez, in particular Wild Bill. Harry and Ramirez already know about Einherjaren. If anything, the only one who seems unclear on them is Wild Bill. We could include Yoshimo, but we would be assuming. Chandler is quite well educated, and is around Harry's own age, and likely had a more normal (if not better) magical education (let alone mortal education). Ebenezar's information is sound. So I don't think that argument holds up.
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They are not briefed. They are not prepared. If you go to such a meeting you need to know these essential things. Read the reports.
--- Quote ---Again, I am not sure what you mean here. I assume by them you mean the White Court, the Sidhe, the Svartalves? To which I would point out that Ebenezar knows quite a lot about them, perhaps more than Dresden (despite Harry's sometimes unique perspective). Unless there is something I am missing, I am not sure how it's clear that Ebenezar doesn't know about them. He might not empathise with them, but that doesn't mean he doesn't understand what they are and how they work.
--- End quote ---
He does not understand the web of duties and obligations Harry is working under so he asks impossible things and does not understand what Harry is doing. It is all over the book.
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