The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Harry should have trusted Ramirez
Mira:
--- Quote from: vincentric on January 04, 2022, 03:30:34 PM ---The Warden is not a Mantle. It is a title that comes with taking up the power and responsibility of watching over the island. Demonreach also hinted in CD that the title predated the the Wardens of the White Council.("First there was one, now there are many.")That implies that the White Council Wardens were founded by one of the early Wardens of Demonreach.
--- End quote ---
I'm not so sure about that.
Here is what Eb said in his journal; Turn Coat page 379
There are a couple of really interesting comments that I will highlight
--- Quote ---. . .seems clear that he had no idea of the island's original purpose.
I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate--or at least a
higher power of some sort attempting to arrange events in our favor despite everything
we, in our ignorance, do to thwart it. The Merlin has demanded that we put the boy under surveillance at once.I think he is a damn fool.
Rashid says warning him about the island would be pointless. He's a good judge of
people, but I'm not so sure he's right this time. The boy's got a solid head on his shoulders, generally. And if all the wizards I know, he is among the three or four I'd be willing to see take up that particular mantle. I trust his judgement.
--- End quote ---
1] As we know or knew, Harry had no clue what he was getting himself into.
2] When the Merlin finds out about what Harry did he wants him watched. Watched for what?
being corrupted by the power he now has in his hands? Like Kemmler? How did that happen?
3] Eb calls it a mantle, no mistake, a mantle.. No, it doesn't enter his body like the mantle of the Winter Knight perhaps, however Harry's power and reach has increased who knows how many times over. He was able to put a Titian away, that speaks to great power at his finger tips, and that kind of power can corrupt.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Mira on January 04, 2022, 12:19:08 PM ---The bit that is interesting in that journal, is it is implied that the title Warden of that island, [won't call it Demonreach because that is Harry's name for it] is a mantle. That sets is apart from being a Warden of the White Council, not even if you are the Captain of the Wardens is a mantle. "Mantle" in the Dresdenverse means acquiring a power of some kind, and it can do stuff to the one acquiring it as we see in Harry's struggle with the Winter Knight's Mantle. They seem to know what resides on that island, how dangerous it is, apparently there have been other Wardens in the past. Yet they have chosen to leave that position unfilled.. Why? Rashid seemed to think that Harry could handle the job, and Eb more or less concurred, but that was before Harry also acquired the mantle of Winter Knight. Now you can make the argument that the Merlin, Gatekeeper, and Blackstaff are all mantles, but only Harry as far as we know wears two, and they don't even know that he is also Custodian of the Holy Swords. Which could also be called a mantle of sorts, because of the authority to give them out isn't something one can just assume.
As we saw in Battleground, being Warden of the Island carries huge power. Power I don't think Harry is fully aware of, even yet. I think that is what the Council is afraid of, if indeed Kemmler was the last Warden of the Island. Was he corrupted by it and tapped as Rashid warned Harry against the power of it's leyline?
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Not just implied, but outright stated it is a mantle. Whether it is a mantle like the Winter Knight that comes with powers etc or whether it's more like the mantle of being given an office of responsibility is the real question, as you imply. Mantle has two meanings in the Dresden Files, our meaning (i.e. an office or rank like being President) or a magical one (a powerful magical boost alongside the office of responsibility). My guess is that it's somewhere in-between. He definitely brings some of that power with him (his magic now is green and gold). But it doesn't seem anywhere near the same as his Winter Knight mantle. Demonreach is very limited beyond the lake, perhaps literally.
Jim answered why they left it unfilled btw. He said that anyone who claimed it would be all the reason the Senior Council would need to execute (particularly if it was one of them, it would be all the reason they need to start pointing fingers and be like "they're the bad guy, get them"). In their minds, no one would be insane or stupid enough now. Well, almost no one...
Harry has definitely used *some* of the Island's power. See the fight scene in Battle Ground between him, Lara and Freydis. But, it isn't clear if he is just using latent energy that Merlin used OR the leyline. My guess is the former but it's not totally clear.
--- Quote from: Mira on January 04, 2022, 05:28:01 PM ---1] As we know or knew, Harry had no clue what he was getting himself into.
2] When the Merlin finds out about what Harry did he wants him watched. Watched for what?
being corrupted by the power he now has in his hands? Like Kemmler? How did that happen?
3] Eb calls it a mantle, no mistake, a mantle.. No, it doesn't enter his body like the mantle of the Winter Knight perhaps, however Harry's power and reach has increased who knows how many times over. He was able to put a Titian away, that speaks to great power at his finger tips, and that kind of power can corrupt.
--- End quote ---
I think the Merlin was naturally cautious. As I said above, the Senior Council didn't want ANYONE to have the mantle of Warden, to be the Warden of Demonreach. Harry gives as much of an explanation as any in Cold Days (I think). Yeah, I think the Merlin was only acting normally from his perspective. I think he is less worried about the ley line corrupting Harry as much as Harry releasing monsters from Demonreach, or using them as his personal weapons. Harry's own island of demonic and insane pokemon.
As I said earlier, the mantle definition is tricky. Somewhere in the middle. I mean, why should all mantles work the same eh?
--- Quote from: vincentric on January 04, 2022, 03:30:34 PM ---The Warden is not a Mantle. It is a title that comes with taking up the power and responsibility of watching over the island. Demonreach also hinted in CD that the title predated the the Wardens of the White Council.("First there was one, now there are many.")That implies that the White Council Wardens were founded by one of the early Wardens of Demonreach.
--- End quote ---
Yes and no. It's a mantle in the normal sense. It's less clear if it is a mantle in the magical sense. I mean, it sure predates the White Council because the guy who made the White Council was the first one, built the prison and got the t-shirt. He also built it in multiple times, so conceivably the prison existed hundreds if not thousands of years before Merlin first made the Council. It's hard with time-travellers because who knows when he is originally from.
--- Quote from: Arjan on January 04, 2022, 03:49:21 PM ---They are not briefed. They are not prepared. If you go to such a meeting you need to know these essential things. Read the reports.
He does not understand the web of duties and obligations Harry is working under so he asks impossible things and does not understand what Harry is doing. It is all over the book.
--- End quote ---
By "they" I assume you mean Wild Bill (who asked the question), and possibly Yoshimo and Chandler. Ramirez clearly knows as he acknowledges them when Harry reminds him Marcone has some. I mean, you're assuming there were reports to read. Anyway, Chandler is around Dresden's age too, might even be older. It's hard to say. It seems to me that Harry and Ebenezar were explaining Einherjar as a quick reminder to Wild Bill and included everyone as a matter of politeness and simplicity. If it's just Wild Bill who doesn't understand, it's more complicated to have to pull him aside and explain (or have a scene where every other character shows they know). I mean, the explanation is just as much for the reader as anything else. Jim often re-explains things even when he doesn't have to (and it occasionally it isn't needed or doesn't really make sense). It's part of his writing style. Have a character ask a question so that another character can provide some exposition to the audience. That's the Doylist explanation.
Ah, I see what you're getting at about Ebenezar. Well, it is possible he doesn't understand the duties and obligations. He would only know that Harry has some, not necessarily the specifics (which isn't unreasonable considering no one has told Ebenezar about what Harry is meant to do for Mab and for Lara, and he doesn't yet know of the Thomas connection). But I think it's still quite the step to say he doesn't understand that Harry HAS obligations and duties that might conflict with his White Council ones. They even discuss it as much in Changes, right at the end. Eb acknowledges that he has made deals before, too. And he gives Harry the very good advice (that Harry gets time and time again) that no can actually change Harry but himself, despite that all the old monsters will try and convince him otherwise. The monsters can make Harry do things, but not CHOOSE to do them. It's an important distinction. But I don't believe that Ebenezar just thinks of supernatural nations as pure monsters. He knows about their politics, their way of doing things, some of their history and some of their secrets. Even though he hates the White Court, he seems to know their nature and their game. He might not know all their internal politics and operations, but he would know enough to do business with them (and to fight them of course). He also doesn't seem to hate the Svartalves, just knows to show strength sometimes is better than looking weak (at least, in his point of view). I don't think he particularly hates the Sidhe Courts either. Considering where he got his staff, I would say he knows a few things about Winter at the least.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I think the Merlin was naturally cautious. As I said above, the Senior Council didn't want ANYONE to have the mantle of Warden, to be the Warden of Demonreach. Harry gives as much of an explanation as any in Cold Days (I think). Yeah, I think the Merlin was only acting normally from his perspective. I think he is less worried about the ley line corrupting Harry as much as Harry releasing monsters from Demonreach, or using them as his personal weapons. Harry's own island of demonic and insane pokemon.
--- End quote ---
I still think it goes deeper that the Merlin merely acting normally. The has to be a reason why the Island has been without a Warden for so long. I actually think Eb is relieved that the Island has a Warden once more.
--- Quote ---. . .seems clear that he had no idea of the island's original purpose.
I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate--or at least a
higher power of some sort attempting to arrange events in our favor despite everything
we, in our ignorance, do to thwart it. The Merlin has demanded that we put the boy under surveillance at once.I think he is a damn fool.
--- End quote ---
Basically he is saying, "thank God someone is in charge of the Island again." Even if it is Harry who stumbled into the job. Again the question is why is the Senior Council or many on the Senior Council so opposed to the Island having a Warden? Eb seems to think it is out of ignorance, ignorance of what? What happened? Does it all go back to Kemmler? Does the Merlin so fear that the next Warden will turn out the same way that he prefers a less secure Island to one with it's defenses fully functional?
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Mira on January 05, 2022, 04:53:14 AM ---I still think it goes deeper that the Merlin merely acting normally. The has to be a reason why the Island has been without a Warden for so long. I actually think Eb is relieved that the Island has a Warden once more.
Basically he is saying, "thank God someone is in charge of the Island again." Even if it is Harry who stumbled into the job. Again the question is why is the Senior Council or many on the Senior Council so opposed to the Island having a Warden? Eb seems to think it is out of ignorance, ignorance of what? What happened? Does it all go back to Kemmler? Does the Merlin so fear that the next Warden will turn out the same way that he prefers a less secure Island to one with it's defenses fully functional?
--- End quote ---
There IS a reason - since the last Warden, anyone who tries to take it would be executed. Threat of execution is a strong deterrent. As for if it were a Senior Council wizard (or another wizard of significant age, power, and political sway with enough allies) it would probably amount to civil war. That's why there has been no Warden for some time. The WOJ on this is in a Q&A that shouldn't be too hard to find, I think it was in the 20 years of Dresden interview with Priscilla (it's on YouTube).
I agree, Eb does seem somewhat thankful. Considering he is the most combat capable wizard on the planet, I am not so sure that's a vote in Harry's favor. But he is fairly wise as well.
But the considering the power that the Island has, and could grant a wizard...not to mention an army of dark monsters and gods that said wizard could release, if not control. Why on Earth would they want anyone to have that? Kemmler is a good indication, but there have been at least two Wardens between him and Harry. I think the Merlin is aware the Island is secure enough from most attempts.
And as Harry is starting to realise, Demonreach hides things. It might not be such a good thing to be the Warden in the end. Any wizard who knows enough about the Island might think twice anyway regardless of the White Council issues, just because of the danger the Island itself poses to them personally. Not to mention all the evil characters who might want the Warden to release their friends. Harry has a giant target on him that says "Bribe me, torture me, kill me...or my loved ones". Even Rashid hints he has gained a lot more problems by being Warden.
Mira:
--- Quote ---But the considering the power that the Island has, and could grant a wizard...not to mention an army of dark monsters and gods that said wizard could release, if not control. Why on Earth would they want anyone to have that? Kemmler is a good indication, but there have been at least two Wardens between him and Harry. I think the Merlin is aware the Island is secure enough from most attempts.
--- End quote ---
Yet the Merlin is willing to allow the Blackstaff to remain in the hands of one wizard. Now I realize that perhaps Eb couldn't do as much damage as all the monsters on the Island being turned loose, but still with that staff he could do a lot of damage. The point is, how does the Merlin know the island is secure enough without a Warden? Just because no one has been successful in getting in during the last hundred years doesn't mean that it is. It only speaks of a lack of imagination..
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