The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Harry should have trusted Ramirez

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prince lotore:
Though I have to say that the councils reasoning of we think Harry has been corrupted let's make sure that he only talks to monsters and let's take away our protection so he would have to make deals with them isn't what I would expect from a group of people with thousands of years of experience. It makes more sense if mab was behind it all. She never struck me as someone who shares well

forumghost:

--- Quote from: Mira on January 26, 2023, 12:10:46 PM ---Maybe you answered your own question with that.  Though the Council are wizards, and many of them are hundreds of years old, basically they are still human. Half of them never trusted Harry because of who his mother was, nor liked him.  Harry can gain their respect, which he has, but that isn't the same as trust.  Trust, they will never give him, because they fear him.

Ramirez said, "talk to me.."Those are words police say when they want a confession from a suspect.  He wasn't asking it as a friend, the vibs from Chandler warned Harry of that.  Harry has a right to remain silent because anything he'd say could and would be used against him.   Maybe trust but verify would be more apt here, Ramirez didn't come to Harry as a friend,he came as a cop, he had Harry scanned for recent sexual activity, he came in force [by that I mean he had other Wardens with him], all this screams that Harry was already suspected of something.  So if you were Harry, would you have trusted him?
--- End quote ---

Oh for sure, the time for Harry to start earning the Council's trust was well before Peace Talks. All I'm saying is that if Harry, after acknowledging that he'd need to start playing politics after saving Molly, had actually bothered to... play politics, instead of ignoring the Council until he next wanted a favour, he might have been better off for it. Instead he allowed his enemies on the White Council to act freely, relying on his connection to Eb to keep him in good standing despite never taking part in Council meetings, or doing his Warden duties, or generally acting like he was ever part of the White Council at all.


--- Quote ---And Knight of the Cross Michael cussed in several languages words that even Harry didn't know...
--- End quote ---

I mean yeah, Michael has all the Context and stuff about Harry's actions that make him seem reasonable and not a nut-job, but the Council doesn't because the only times that the Council has seen Harry recently was Turn Coat where hard-core-loyalist-turned-'traitor' Morgan died to save him, and Changes, where he barges into a meeting and tries to murder an envoy before fucking off with no explanation.

The Council are wrong and also assholes, I won't deny it, but it's like... Harry does himself no favours with the way he approaches them, is all I'm saying. Like, I want to shake that boy sometimes and tell him to stop being so anti-social and self-sabotaging.


--- Quote from: prince lotore on January 26, 2023, 04:53:55 PM ---Though I have to say that the councils reasoning of we think Harry has been corrupted let's make sure that he only talks to monsters and let's take away our protection so he would have to make deals with them isn't what I would expect from a group of people with thousands of years of experience. It makes more sense if mab was behind it all. She never struck me as someone who shares well

--- End quote ---

Oh yeah I have no doubt that Mab had a hand in this, it feels very much her style. And the fact that the Council just went 'lol lets cut this guy off and hope that someone kills him for us' is really fucking dumb, because it:

A) Cuts off any potential leverage/influence the Council has on him and

B) Makes no fucking sense, since the Council never protected Dresden from jack shit, and everyone knows it. Remember that time when the Council almost sold him to the Red Court? Remember the time when someone sold him on Ebay and they did shit all?

But no, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it was partly either Mab's agents in the Council cutting him off so that he'd be easier to mold, or Black Council agents ensuring Harry didn't ruin their next plan to take over the White Council, or something.

Mira:

--- Quote ---Oh for sure, the time for Harry to start earning the Council's trust was well before Peace Talks. All I'm saying is that if Harry, after acknowledging that he'd need to start playing politics after saving Molly, had actually bothered to... play politics, instead of ignoring the Council until he next wanted a favour, he might have been better off for it. Instead he allowed his enemies on the White Council to act freely, relying on his connection to Eb to keep him in good standing despite never taking part in Council meetings, or doing his Warden duties, or generally acting like he was ever part of the White Council at all.
--- End quote ---

Just what would you have Harry do in this case?  For at least a year after he saved Molly he was considered dead..  Then for another year Mab confined him to Demonreach.. Actually it was Rashid that restored him to the Council.  After standing up for Molly he was considered a possible political rival for Langtree, a bit of a polarizing figure pitting older wizards verses the younger.  He did uncover Peabody, didn't fight the need to find an innocent Morgan guilty.  So if uncovering the fact that their trusted secretary was using ink to mind rape the lot of them didn't endear Harry to the Council, do you think showing up to meetings and smiling would? 

--- Quote ---I mean yeah, Michael has all the Context and stuff about Harry's actions that make him seem reasonable and not a nut-job, but the Council doesn't because the only times that the Council has seen Harry recently was Turn Coat where hard-core-loyalist-turned-'traitor' Morgan died to save him, and Changes, where he barges into a meeting and tries to murder an envoy before fucking off with no explanation.

--- End quote ---

Michael isn't an ordinary Joe, he is a Holy Knight..  Morgan was no traitor, all of the crap Peabody did was covered up.  And right after that scene you are talking about Langtree takes Harry to one side and says he wants Harry to deal with her and the Red Court, but keep the Council's hands clean... Harry actually manages that, but it didn't earn him any brownie points with the Council.

--- Quote ---But no, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it was partly either Mab's agents in the Council cutting him off so that he'd be easier to mold, or Black Council agents ensuring Harry didn't ruin their next plan to take over the White Council, or something.

--- End quote ---

All of that is BS, the truth of the matter is the Council is scared shitless of Harry.  They may have had a hand in him being a starborn, but he is proving that he isn't their weapon to wield.  He got their attention when he called up Za'Gard,Toot and his little motes of light men proved they could handle the flying squid things when Senior Council members couldn't. He is Warden of Demonreach, not sure if they know he is holder of the Spear or not, being Winter Knight is just a side show.. He has influence in both Winter and Summer Courts, with the Holy Knights, with the White Court, especially if he does marry Lara.  Truth is, once he figures it out, Harry will realize he is a power on to himself that can rival the White Council, and they know it... No amount of playing nice is going to get any amount of trust from the Council.. That ship has sailed if there ever was a ship to sail to begin with..

forumghost:

--- Quote from: Mira on January 26, 2023, 07:03:44 PM ---Just what would you have Harry do in this case?  For at least a year after he saved Molly he was considered dead..  Then for another year Mab confined him to Demonreach.. Actually it was Rashid that restored him to the Council.
--- End quote ---

Dude, there was literally 4 years between Molly's trial and the events of Changes. In that time the only interaction the Council had with Harry was
"Hey guys, need you to help me save a bunch of Mind Rapists" (White Knight)
"Hey guys, need you to help me save a Mob Don" (Small Favor) and
"Hey guys I've been sheltering that Traitor you're after, come fight me on my creepy supervillain Island if you don't like it" (Turn Coat).

Like, we know that's not how any of those situations really were, but to the average Council member...


--- Quote ---After standing up for Molly he was considered a possible political rival for Langtree, a bit of a polarizing figure pitting older wizards verses the younger.  He did uncover Peabody, didn't fight the need to find an innocent Morgan guilty.  So if uncovering the fact that their trusted secretary was using ink to mind rape the lot of them didn't endear Harry to the Council, do you think showing up to meetings and smiling would?
--- End quote ---

Not many people knew that, to the Council as a whole Morgan was the main traitor, remember? The Senior Council and other upper echelons is a bit different, but to most, that's how it went down.


--- Quote ---Michael isn't an ordinary Joe, he is a Holy Knight..
--- End quote ---

Michael has one of the weaknesses that all KOTC have- he has to give people the benefit of the doubt, even when they don't deserve it (it's why Murphy didn't make the grade) so him vouching for Harry is a mixed bag, assuming the Council even bothered to notice him, which I doubt.


--- Quote ---Morgan was no traitor, all of the crap Peabody did was covered up.
--- End quote ---

Hence the quotes around 'Traitor'.


--- Quote ---And right after that scene you are talking about Langtree takes Harry to one side and says he wants Harry to deal with her and the Red Court, but keep the Council's hands clean... Harry actually manages that, but it didn't earn him any brownie points with the Council.
--- End quote ---

No, Langtry tells Harry to sit out of it, forget about the random kidnapped girl (nobody knew it was his daughter) and not fuck up the Council's plan to wipe out the Red Court. The fact that Harry went and wiped out the Red's all by himself anyway probably just made them nervous.



--- Quote ---All of that is BS, the truth of the matter is the Council is scared shitless of Harry.  They may have had a hand in him being a starborn, but he is proving that he isn't their weapon to wield.  He got their attention when he called up Za'Gard, Toot and his little motes of light men proved they could handle the flying squid things when Senior Council members couldn't
. He is Warden of Demonreach, not sure if they know he is holder of the Spear or not, being Winter Knight is just a side show.. He has influence in both Winter and Summer Courts, with the Holy Knights, with the White Court, especially if he does marry Lara.  Truth is, once he figures it out, Harry will realize he is a power on to himself that can rival the White Council, and they know it... No amount of playing nice is going to get any amount of trust from the Council.. That ship has sailed
--- End quote ---

I mean yes, I absolutely agree. I just think that if Harry had taken an hour a month to show up to Council meetings, rub a couple shoulders, made a little small-talk, he'd have never had to deal with any of this shit (obviously this would have had to be pre-Changes, since after that he's never had the opportunity to do so).

Mira:

--- Quote ---Dude, there was literally 4 years between Molly's trial and the events of Changes. In that time the only interaction the Council had with Harry was
"Hey guys, need you to help me save a bunch of Mind Rapists" (White Knight)
"Hey guys, need you to help me save a Mob Don" (Small Favor) and
"Hey guys I've been sheltering that Traitor you're after, come fight me on my creepy supervillain Island if you don't like it" (Turn Coat).

Like, we know that's not how any of those situations really were, but to the average Council member...

--- End quote ---

Um, lets see, rooted out Peabody who had the whole Senior Council by the short hairs with his magical ink.. Oh you forgot to mention that the Denarians were also holding the Archive.. The Archive is a power kind of important to the White Council..  And while most of the Council members may keep their heads up their robes most of the time, the Senior Council doesn't.

--- Quote ---Not many people knew that, to the Council as a whole Morgan was the main traitor, remember? The Senior Council and other upper echelons is a bit different, but to most, that's how it went down.

--- End quote ---
Yeah, that was an interesting cover up don't you think?  Maybe instead of saying Harry has done nothing to earn the Council's trust, maybe you should be asking after that why should Harry trust the Council at all?  Rashid clearly doesn't and keeps stuff from them.

--- Quote ---Michael has one of the weaknesses that all KOTC have- he has to give people the benefit of the doubt, even when they don't deserve it (it's why Murphy didn't make the grade) so him vouching for Harry is a mixed bag, assuming the Council even bothered to notice him, which I doubt.
--- End quote ---

While it is true that Michael doesn't judge, that is for the Almighty, neither does he suffer fools.. Not notice a Holy Knight of the Cross who just happened to have a lot to do with saving a bunch of Senior members of the Council at the end of Proven Guilty?

--- Quote ---No, Langtry tells Harry to sit out of it, forget about the random kidnapped girl (nobody knew it was his daughter) and not fuck up the Council's plan to wipe out the Red Court. The fact that Harry went and wiped out the Red's all by himself anyway probably just made them nervous.

--- End quote ---
It is a little more complicated than that.. What the Merlin tells Harry; page 59 Changes

--- Quote ---"Uncounted billionsnow living and yet to be born will be saved if we stop the Red Court from feeding on humanity ever again."
--- End quote ---

Think about it, the White Council's army is depleted, so what counter attack could they use?  If the Merlin had a handy dandy spell to wipe out the Red Court root and branch, he would have loosed it by now.  So what is about the only way to completely wipe out the Red Court, roots and all, burn the roots and the seed, then salt the earth they fall upon?  Why your handy dandy generational spell of course.. What is worth risking the sacrifice of a little girl's life?  I bet the Merlin knows all about the connection between little Maggie, Harry, to Eb his Blackstaff, he also knows if anyone is capable of reversing and pulling off the reversal of the generational spell it is Harry, so he will gamble with their lives against wiping out the Red Court for good.. One little catch, the Merlin of the White Court cannot be seen to have ordered genocide.  So he doesn't, he tosses Harry into the Brier Patch to figure it out, knowing that he will, and that he will move heaven and earth to save his child, and the only way to do that is reversing the generational spell...That's why he is the Merlin, very clever, if Harry fails, well he is out a star born and a Blackstaff, but the gamble is worth it.

--- Quote ---I mean yes, I absolutely agree. I just think that if Harry had taken an hour a month to show up to Council meetings, rub a couple shoulders, made a little small-talk, he'd have never had to deal with any of this shit (obviously this would have had to be pre-Changes, since after that he's never had the opportunity to do so).
--- End quote ---

No amount of glad handing was ever going to cut it... All the younger wizards were for the most part on Harry's side, which politically speaking also makes him a threat to the Merlin.. So they get him the one way they can by kangaroo court when his most powerful allies are indisposed.. Oh and using a significant event to turn one of his closest Warden friends against him.

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