The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Harry should have trusted Ramirez
forumghost:
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on January 25, 2023, 12:51:31 PM ---The Title is wrong, Ramirez Should Have Trusted Harry. Carlos is keeping secrets from Harry, the tracker, his true instructions from the White Council, not telling him how he got injured, still refusing to admit he is a virgin, but who is vouching for Carlos?
--- End quote ---
Have you ever heard the expression "Trust is a Two-Way Street"?
Like yeah, I agree that the Council are a bag of dicks. But here's the thing...
Since when has Harry ever tried to do anything that makes him seem trustworthy to them? The answer is never. He just acts like they should have read his mind and know that he's a good guy, obviously.
Ramirez and the Council don't know that Harry has a brother, just that he's apparently super-tight with a bunch of Mind-Rapists.
Ramirez and the Council don't know about his daughter, just that one day Harry decided to join the Queen of evil faeries and immediately committed genocide.
Ramirez and the Council don't know what happened on Demonreach, just that two demigods were murdered and replaced with people that Harry is allied with.
Ramirez and Harry don't know that it was a double cross, but they probably know that Harry was making friendly with Nicodemus recently.
Remember, if you haven't been reading the books, Harry looks dodgy as fuck.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Since when has Harry ever tried to do anything that makes him seem trustworthy to them? The answer is never. He just acts like they should have read his mind and know that he's a good guy, obviously.
--- End quote ---
Actually he has toed the line pretty well, considering. He has had to, the only time he has really gone against them is when they wanted to give Molly the chop, and in defense of Morgan. They made him a Warden, they must think he was trustworthy at some point. He has had to prove himself over and over again.. But there is that faction that has never trusted him ever since he came before them as a scared 16 year old kid with a scary amount of talent..
--- Quote ---Ramirez and the Council don't know that Harry has a brother, just that he's apparently super-tight with a bunch of Mind-Rapists.
--- End quote ---
But that didn't seem to matter to them before.. Do they know how Ramirez got hurt? That he was trying to have sex with the Winter Lady.. They might want to check his trustworthiness.
--- Quote ---Ramirez and the Council don't know about his daughter, just that one day Harry decided to join the Queen of evil faeries and immediately committed genocide.
--- End quote ---
Actually that genocide was sanctioned by Langtree himself if I remember correctly. The Merlin wanted the Red Court dealt with, had a nice talk with Harry about it, but at the same time wanted to keep his hands clean. Also there is no evidence that the Winter Court is evil, on the contrary one of their Senior Members is helping the Winter Court guard the Outer Gates from Outsiders.
--- Quote ---Ramirez and the Council don't know what happened on Demonreach, just that two demigods were murdered and replaced with people that Harry is allied with.
--- End quote ---
I don't know that you could call the Ladies demi-gods, even so, none of that has a whole lot to do with trusting Harry.
--- Quote ---Ramirez and Harry don't know that it was a double cross, but they probably know that Harry was making friendly with Nicodemus recently.
--- End quote ---
They might also know that he is the keeper of the Holy Swords and that he hangs out with the Holy Knights.
--- Quote ---Remember, if you haven't been reading the books, Harry looks dodgy as fuck.
--- End quote ---
So does the White Council, and your point is?
forumghost:
My point is that the Council doesn't trust Harry because Harry never bothered to do anything that would actually engineer trust, despite knowing that they didn't like him.
The situation with Ramirez and the rest of the Council sucks, but it's very much a problem of Harry's own making, because as much as the White Council has treated Harry like shit, Harry has equally treated the Council like shit.
Like, this entire conflict could have been avoided, it only happened because Harry refused to interact with the Council except when he needs them to fight a war he started or save him from necromancers.
KurtinStGeorge:
--- Quote from: forumghost on January 26, 2023, 10:15:36 AM ---My point is that the Council doesn't trust Harry because Harry never bothered to do anything that would actually engineer trust, despite knowing that they didn't like him.
The situation with Ramirez and the rest of the Council sucks, but it's very much a problem of Harry's own making, because as much as the White Council has treated Harry like shit, Harry has equally treated the Council like shit.
Like, this entire conflict could have been avoided, it only happened because Harry refused to interact with the Council except when he needs them to fight a war he started or save him from necromancers.
--- End quote ---
* Harry gained for the Council the right to use the Ways through Farie; or at least Winter's part of it, without which the Council would not have been able to compete with the Red Court.
* Defeating the Necromancers also helped the Council, especially the part that prevented one of them from gaining the power to destroy the Senior Council. Morgan understood that by the end of Dead Beat.
* Harry exposed a traitor at the heart of power within the White Council.Harry has done other things that helped the Council, but these are the easy to understand ones. The last one alone should have gained Harry a fair amount of good will.
Mira:
--- Quote ---My point is that the Council doesn't trust Harry because Harry never bothered to do anything that would actually engineer trust, despite knowing that they didn't like him.
--- End quote ---
.
Maybe you answered your own question with that. Though the Council are wizards, and many of them are hundreds of years old, basically they are still human. Half of them never trusted Harry because of who his mother was, nor liked him. Harry can gain their respect, which he has, but that isn't the same as trust. Trust, they will never give him, because they fear him.
Ramirez said, "talk to me.."Those are words police say when they want a confession from a suspect. He wasn't asking it as a friend, the vibs from Chandler warned Harry of that. Harry has a right to remain silent because anything he'd say could and would be used against him. Maybe trust but verify would be more apt here, Ramirez didn't come to Harry as a friend,he came as a cop, he had Harry scanned for recent sexual activity, he came in force [by that I mean he had other Wardens with him], all this screams that Harry was already suspected of something. So if you were Harry, would you have trusted him?
You also bring up Morgan, what happened to Morgan is reason enough for Harry to be less than trusting, especially in the face of the warning vibs that Chandler was sending him. Morgan next to Luccio was one of the most trusted Wardens of the Council, he was their chief executioner. Yet he also fled the Council, not just because he looked guilty, but because he knew they had no interest in any proof of his innocence. In fact though Harry proved Peabody was behind the murder, and who knows how much more damage he did to the Council with his ink, yet the Council, i.e. the Merlin still felt that it was necessary for Morgan to be found responsible for the murder for political reasons. So we saw at the end of Battle Ground, for political reasons the Council trumps up charges that Harry killed "humans" with magic in battle. Though these "humans" were altered by the Fomor and no longer human, thus exspelled him from the Council and put him in effect under a death sentence. Was the angry Carlos acting like a friend when he gave that message to Harry? Did he acknowledge at all that Harry had a huge part in saving all of their bacon? No, he just accused him of becoming a monster and that he should have talked to him...
And Knight of the Cross Michael cussed in several languages words that even Harry didn't know...
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