The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
Mira:
Trick Susan? What do you think she would have done once her daughter's throat was cut? The one who really screwed Susan was Martin, not Harry. Martin was the one playing both sides and got little Maggie kidnapped in the first place. Oh yeah, desperate, Harry made sure she knew, hoping that she'd turn, but what he did, was make sure her turning saved their daughter as well as himself and his grandfather. Yeah, he feels guilty about it, but that doesn't make him wrong.
This is also about choices both made long before the above moment...
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 08, 2021, 11:37:34 AM --- Trick Susan? What do you think she would have done once her daughter's throat was cut? The one who really screwed Susan was Martin, not Harry. Martin was the one playing both sides and got little Maggie kidnapped in the first place. Oh yeah, desperate, Harry made sure she knew, hoping that she'd turn, but what he did, was make sure her turning saved their daughter as well as himself and his grandfather. Yeah, he feels guilty about it, but that doesn't make him wrong.
This is also about choices both made long before the above moment...
--- End quote ---
Well he lied. If you are an all lies are equally and terrible wrong type of person then the discussion is over.
If you go for a utilitarian morality then I do not think Harry did anything wrong at that moment. Destroying the red court brought the greatest good for the most people.
morriswalters:
To kill off the Reds Martin used everybody. And Harry uses that knowledge he gains from the soul gaze just as ruthlessly as Martin. Jim lays to out clearly.
--- Quote ---I knew how angry she was. I knew how afraid she was. Her child was about to die only inches beyond her reach, and what I did to her was as good as murder.
I focused my thoughts and sent them to Susan. Susan! Think! Who knew who the baby’s father was? Who could have told them?
Her lips peeled away from her teeth.
His knife can’t hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could blithely ignore the touch of steel.
--- End quote ---
So who is the hero of the story?
Mira:
--- Quote ---To kill off the Reds Martin used everybody. And Harry uses that knowledge he gains from the soul gaze just as ruthlessly as Martin. Jim lays to out clearly.
--- End quote ---
Just as ruthlessly? Really? Martin had a plan, but would it have worked? Just what was his plan? He was willing to kill off all of his followers, he was willing to kill off an innocent little girl and her family and did murder her adopted family.. You compare that with what Harry did?
--- Quote ---I knew how angry she was. I knew how afraid she was. Her child was about to die only inches beyond her reach, and what I did to her was as good as murder.
I focused my thoughts and sent them to Susan. Susan! Think! Who knew who the baby’s father was? Who could have told them?
Her lips peeled away from her teeth.
--- End quote ---
Yes, he may look at it that way, but at the same time it was the only way to save their daughter. You think Susan shouldn't have known the truth that it was Martin who set up her child to be coldly sacrificed to kill her father and grandfather. And if Harry wasn't so ruthless as you put it, what would have happened do you suppose? I can tell you how it stood in that moment and if Harry hadn't told Susan the truth or helped her to see the truth.. Five minutes later, dead Maggie, dead, Harry, dead Eb, Susan turning once she sees her child murdered, and failing and still dead..
--- Quote ---His knife can’t hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could blithely ignore the touch of steel.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, he said that but do you really think it made any difference to Susan whether or not a knife could hurt her once she went over the edge, began to turn and rip Martin's throat out.. Or say, Harry didn't say the knife couldn't have hurt her, do you think it would have changed anything once Susan saw her baby's throat being cut and she realized who staged it?
--- Quote ---Well he lied. If you are an all lies are equally and terrible wrong type of person then the discussion is over.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, but that kind of belief is a bit hypercritical or falls into the "he who is without sin cast the first stone," category. No one is that pure and truthful 100% of the time..
--- Quote ---If you go for a utilitarian morality then I do not think Harry did anything wrong at that moment. Destroying the red court brought the greatest good for the most people.
--- End quote ---
It did, and Harry made some very difficult choices, his main aim was to save his daughter. And even though one can argue with plenty of certainty that his decisions were right given the outcome. Harry still feels guilty because a lot of people still died.
--- Quote ---So who is the hero of the story?
--- End quote ---
I don't think there is one hero of this story.
morriswalters:
How is Martin's behavior functionally different than Harry's? The only difference that I can see is the desired outcome. Martin meant to end the Reds. Harry meant to save his daughter. Killing the Reds was a happy accident. Only Martin made it possible for any of them to survive.
You may not like that but you would need to take it up with the author. That was the story he wrote. That makes Martin the Hero. The whole mission was a suicide run until that point. Going in, Harry neither knew the Grey Council would step in, or had any idea that Martin would give him the final weapon he would need.
I was very excited when I read Changes the first time, but this type of thing is what is getting old. Changes is a demonstration of dumb luck. The only one with a clear idea of what he wanted to accomplish was Martin. Harry only understands it as Martin dies. This ain't no way to run a railroad.
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