The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
Mira:
--- Quote ---How is Martin's behavior functionally different than Harry's? The only difference that I can see is the desired outcome. Martin meant to end the Reds. Harry meant to save his daughter. Killing the Reds was a happy accident. Only Martin made it possible for any of them to survive.
--- End quote ---
What Martin did was planned over several years, and he was using everyone. He was also fine with the slaughter of Maggie's adoptive family. It was Martin's actions telling the Red King where and who little Maggie was that set all of this off. That sent Susan off to tell Harry, and it all flows from there. If Martin hadn't set any about little Maggie, the Red King wouldn't have attempted his spell to kill Eb etc.. Harry would never had known about Maggie, and things would have gone on as before, with the exception that the Red Court most likely have continued. And no the end of the Red Court was no accident, it was Harry's skill and hard choices that reversed the whole thing and wiped out the Red Court.
--- Quote ---You may not like that but you would need to take it up with the author. That was the story he wrote. That makes Martin the Hero. The whole mission was a suicide run until that point. Going in, Harry neither knew the Grey Council would step in, or had any idea that Martin would give him the final weapon he would need.
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I don't see Martin as the hero at all, not even remotely, nor do I see in any way that it was written that way. The end doesn't always justify the means.
--- Quote ---I was very excited when I read Changes the first time, but this type of thing is what is getting old. Changes is a demonstration of dumb luck. The only one with a clear idea of what he wanted to accomplish was Martin. Harry only understands it as Martin dies. This ain't no way to run a railroad.
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Not exactly, Martin was always head of the Resistance, they had goals. What Harry and everyone else didn't know was he saw everyone as his pawns to achieve his goal. Yeah, well a lot of things work out in the end due to dumb luck. Martin was an excellent double agent, no one was supposed to know who's side he was on. That doesn't make him a hero, at the end he was more about gloating as to how he had everyone fooled than ending the Red Court.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on November 08, 2021, 04:55:38 PM ---To kill off the Reds Martin used everybody. And Harry uses that knowledge he gains from the soul gaze just as ruthlessly as Martin. Jim lays to out clearly.So who is the hero of the story?
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Susan :)
SerScot:
--- Quote from: Arjan on November 08, 2021, 08:36:13 PM ---Susan :)
--- End quote ---
She certainly gave more than anyone else.
morriswalters:
What was Harry's plan for Chicken Pizza? What series of steps would have ended with Maggie and Harry walking off into the sunset talking about Big Bird? Could you aim me at it?
I'm pretty sure that Jim didn't want you to see Martin as the Hero. He was suppose to be the tragic figure. However it was his plan and not Harry's that killed the Red King. Harry was simply the dagger.
--- Quote ---Everything he had done, I realized, he had done for one reason: to be sure that I was standing here when it happened. To give me a chance to change everything.
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There aren't very many ways to parse that, are there?
--- Quote from: Arjan on November 08, 2021, 08:36:13 PM ---Susan :)
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;)
Mira:
--- Quote ---What was Harry's plan for Chicken Pizza? What series of steps would have ended with Maggie and Harry walking off into the sunset talking about Big Bird? Could you aim me at it?
--- End quote ---
I don't claim that he had one, his only desire was to save his child, himself, and his grandfather from death. In contrast, Martin had been setting things up coldly for years playing both sides. All Harry had were a small group of friends willing to put it on the line to help him, a strong talent, the knowledge how to reverse the Red King's spell back at him, and in desperation the will to make the final very hard choices.
--- Quote ---I'm pretty sure that Jim didn't want you to see Martin as the Hero. He was suppose to be the tragic figure. However it was his plan and not Harry's that killed the Red King. Harry was simply the dagger.
--- End quote ---
I don't see Martin as a tragic figure either, he had Susan's total trust, then betrayed her when he told the Red King where little Maggie was.
--- Quote --- Everything he had done, I realized, he had done for one reason: to be sure that I was standing here when it happened. To give me a chance to change everything.
--- End quote ---
No, it was at best a gamble.
--- Quote ---Susan
--- End quote ---
Yes, in the end she was a hero, but. . .
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