The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
Arjan:
Molly had agency sure but Ghost Story is not about that, it is about Harry and Harry is responsible for how he influenced Molly.
And Harry asked her to do it. It does not mean she is not responsible but it does mean Harry is responsible too. It is not a binary thing.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 03, 2021, 02:11:59 PM ---Why would she be, if it wasn't her doing that he was dead. All she needed was another wizard to step forward to take up her apprenticeship. None did. Instead of looking the other way as things got worse for her, if Carlos had captured her, soul gazed her and then offered to take Harry's place.
Truth is no one gave a damn about the fate of Molly, only Mab for very selfish reasons.
--- End quote ---
But until someone took up that responsibility and that was recognized by the rest of the council. Someone who was prepared to risk death for her sake like Harry did. Until that time she was just a warlock on the run not because something she did in changes but because something she did in Proven Guilty. Carlos had his orders.
We can not expect anyone else to take up that burden. The chances for example that Eb would just have executed her are pretty high, she was not her granddaughter after all and he can be like that. The chances are that if she met somebody else first were even bigger.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Arjan on November 03, 2021, 02:25:21 PM ---But until someone took up that responsibility and that was recognized by the rest of the council. Someone who was prepared to risk death for her sake like Harry did. Until that time she was just a warlock on the run not because something she did in changes but because something she did in Proven Guilty. Carlos had his orders.
We can not expect anyone else to take up that burden. The chances for example that Eb would just have executed her are pretty high, she was not her granddaughter after all and he can be like that. The chances are that if she met somebody else first were even bigger.
--- End quote ---
So Molly was doomed in any case, even if she never blocked his memories, he'd still be Winter Knight and she'd be on her own. But that is the whole point isn't it? Do you think that either Listens or Eb would have stepped up to take responsibility for her? Listens maybe, but not Eb. The situation with young Harry wasn't a simple clear case of taking on a would be warlock apprentice with him. Yes, Harry was under the Doom, and Eb had orders to kill him if he slipped, but nothing is said about Eb also getting the chop.
--- Quote ---Molly had agency sure but Ghost Story is not about that, it is about Harry and Harry is responsible for how he influenced Molly.
--- End quote ---
I also think that is over stated.. 1] If Harry knew Molly had talent do you think he would have acted differently around her? 2] Charity kept it all under wraps thinking Molly's talent would just go away if she did or said nothing about it. Worse she aggravated Molly's interest in Harry by constantly harping on the evils of magic, in other words, forbidden fruit. Also do you think Harry's "influence" level on her would had been the same if she never had any magical talent?
--- Quote ---And Harry asked her to do it. It does not mean she is not responsible but it does mean Harry is responsible too. It is not a binary thing.
--- End quote ---
Yes, and no, Harry was totally messed up mentally at that moment, all he could think about is saving his little girl and then the drastic move of killing himself so as not to become Mab's monster. He really cannot be held responsible, add in the poison of Lasciel's words "and it is all your fault!" Dialing emotions and desire for self loathing up to about 10. I think all of the above is the view that Uriel took.
With Molly it is also a case of yes and no, she was an adult, she was also raised in a strict Catholic home which aggravated her guilt to about 10 after the fact. On one hand she was helping the man she loved to kill himself, understood why he wanted to kill himself, knew she was the only one to help him kill himself, on the other hand suicide in one of the big no, no's sin wise in the faith she was brought up in.. So in for a penny in for a pound as they say, perhaps she already saw herself as damned so why not go full warlock? Also considering her emotions when she helped Harry she cannot be held fully responsible either.
Both needed an intervention to talk common sense, but there was no one at the time.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 03, 2021, 04:34:07 PM ---So Molly was doomed in any case, even if she never blocked his memories, he'd still be Winter Knight and she'd be on her own.
--- End quote ---
Harry being winter knight does not change his status with the white council and Molly’s status with Harry and the white council automatically. Everything would still have been negotiable and that with Mab’s shadow over it.
--- Quote ---But that is the whole point isn't it? Do you think that either Listens or Eb would have stepped up to take responsibility for her?
--- End quote ---
And had Molly any reason to think they would? I think mostly no on all accounts.
--- Quote --- Listens maybe, but not Eb. The situation with young Harry wasn't a simple clear case of taking on a would be warlock apprentice with him. Yes, Harry was under the Doom, and Eb had orders to kill him if he slipped, but nothing is said about Eb also getting the chop.I also think that is over stated.. 1] If Harry knew Molly had talent do you think he would have acted differently around her?
--- End quote ---
If he had known earlier he would have discussed it with Michael and they would have watched her more closely. Michael always has a good influence on Harry so I think it would have ended much better and the white council would not have sentenced her.
--- Quote ---2] Charity kept it all under wraps thinking Molly's talent would just go away if she did or said nothing about it. Worse she aggravated Molly's interest in Harry by constantly harping on the evils of magic, in other words, forbidden fruit. Also do you think Harry's "influence" level on her would had been the same if she never had any magical talent?
--- End quote ---
No, she would have found other examples.
--- Quote ---Yes, and no, Harry was totally messed up mentally at that moment, all he could think about is saving his little girl and then the drastic move of killing himself so as not to become Mab's monster. He really cannot be held responsible, add in the poison of Lasciel's words "and it is all your fault!"
--- End quote ---
Not completely responsible maybe but it only needed a small push, it is not like it was out of character as Michael and Thomas knew.
--- Quote ---Dialing emotions and desire for self loathing up to about 10. I think all of the above is the view that Uriel took.
--- End quote ---
Uriel had two views. Yes the fallen was to blame so he could do something about it but also Harry had some problems the fallen had exploited and something had to be done about that.
--- Quote ---With Molly it is also a case of yes and no, she was an adult, she was also raised in a strict Catholic home which aggravated her guilt to about 10 after the fact. On one hand she was helping the man she loved to kill himself, understood why he wanted to kill himself, knew she was the only one to help him kill himself, on the other hand suicide in one of the big no, no's sin wise in the faith she was brought up in.. So in for a penny in for a pound as they say, perhaps she already saw herself as damned so why not go full warlock? Also considering her emotions when she helped Harry she cannot be held fully responsible either.
Both needed an intervention to talk common sense, but there was no one at the time.
--- End quote ---
There were a lot of people with common sense around but they were kept out of it. Thomas, Michael, Karin, ......
morriswalters:
The only one who had made a promise to Molly was Harry. He broke it, because his daughter was more important then his promise. You can debate the morality of that, but it is what he did.
As a discussion of what the author is writing, this has been ongoing since the first book. Harry isn't reliable. He doesn't keep his word. He'll promise anything to get what he wants and then try to get out of it.
Jim has Murphy tell him at one point, that he should spend more time not getting into these messes rather than trying to get out of them, referring to his deals with Lea and Mab. And it isn't just Mab. He hires Kincaid without any idea of where the money is going to come from to pay him. Then Thomas has to bail him out. As a character I wouldn't loan him money or let him sleep over at my house. ;D
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