The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
Arjan:
That is another thing. Harry abused the teacher pupil relationship. That is very serious. He should have teacher her a different lesson.
In some ways Lea did a better job as she pointed out to Harry.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Harry being winter knight does not change his status with the white council and Molly’s status with Harry and the white council automatically. Everything would still have been negotiable and that with Mab’s shadow over it.
--- End quote ---
Would it? With Mab's shadow hanging over everything? You really think that would work out well?
--- Quote ---And had Molly any reason to think they would? I think mostly no on all accounts.
--- End quote ---
It would matter if Molly had a reason, but she got her answer at her trial.
--- Quote ---If he had known earlier he would have discussed it with Michael and they would have watched her more closely. Michael always has a good influence on Harry so I think it would have ended much better and the white council would not have sentenced her.
--- End quote ---
But he didn't know, did he? Charity made sure he didn't know, she would have overruled any discussion about Molly's talents between Michael and Harry. Plus that little rebellious streak was in Molly from the get go, that is what got her into trouble in the first place.
--- Quote ---No, she would have found other examples.
--- End quote ---
Maybe, but that doesn't mean that they'd be good ones. Molly went out of her way to do opposite of what her mother especially wanted.. Call it a teenage thing. Considering who she ran with, without talent she still could have gotten into a lot of trouble.
--- Quote ---Uriel had two views. Yes the fallen was to blame so he could do something about it but also Harry had some problems the fallen had exploited and something had to be done about that.
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Not just exploited, Lasciel knew Harry intimately, her shadow lived in his head for many years, she knew exactly what buttons to push.
--- Quote ---There were a lot of people with common sense around but they were kept out of it. Thomas, Michael, Karin, ......
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Let's not forget that Changes is all about Harry going to these people for help to save little Maggie, but it wasn't enough, they had no answers.. He even summoned an archangel to plea for help, an old Norse god, in the end he was left with the least bad of several bad options. The only Winter Knight in action he ever witnessed was Slate, and what he had heard of others, Bob had told him. Harry didn't want to become a monster. Ironic that Carlos now calls him a monster, but I digress. Uriel tells him before he makes his decision that if he strays from the path out of love, he can get back on the path.. But did Harry really have time to ponder that? Eb tells him at C.I. that Mab cannot really force him to go against his will, but the dye had already been cast by then.. Uriel's seven words were great and made Harry feel better, but the damage had already been done.
--- Quote ---The only one who had made a promise to Molly was Harry. He broke it, because his daughter was more important then his promise. You can debate the morality of that, but it is what he did.
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Yeah, letting your daughter die, your grandfather die, and yourself die, for a promise... Morally that can be argued several ways depending on point of view and belief system. However to think Molly wasn't unaware of what she did, is a mistake, she knew exactly what she was doing and knew that sometimes promises have to be broken. She made the decision she made just like when she went into the heads of her friends to cure their drug addiction.
--- Quote ---As a discussion of what the author is writing, this has been ongoing since the first book. Harry isn't reliable. He doesn't keep his word. He'll promise anything to get what he wants and then try to get out of it.
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That simply isn't true, if it were, he would have taken up a coin a long time ago and Michael wouldn't be his friend.
--- Quote ---Jim has Murphy tell him at one point, that he should spend more time not getting into these messes rather than trying to get out of them, referring to his deals with Lea and Mab. And it isn't just Mab. He hires Kincaid without any idea of where the money is going to come from to pay him. Then Thomas has to bail him out. As a character I wouldn't loan him money or let him sleep over at my house
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Um, he was a scared 16 year old kid when he made his deal with Lea.. Mab bought the contract, Murphy has no clue about any of that, she thinks she does, but she has no clue how that even works. Which deal? The one to clear out Mavra's nest or the one to shoot him through the heart? If he is so untrustworthy how is it he ends up with the Spear of Destiny?
--- Quote ---at is another thing. Harry abused the teacher pupil relationship. That is very serious. He should have teacher her a different lesson.
--- End quote ---
He may have been wrong about some stuff, but he didn't abuse the teach/pupil relationship. He never tried to exploit or abuse her. Taught her a different lesson? About what? Let us not forget he wasn't the only teacher in her life, she had her parents, Michael and Charity, Father Forthill, she was around Murphy, other Holy Knights, on the whole a pretty solid foundation.
--- Quote ---In some ways Lea did a better job as she pointed out to Harry.
--- End quote ---
Yes, and the Fae are tricky, they like to twist, Lea did a good job in preparing Molly to be a Lady, that was never Harry's goal. His goal was to mostly to help her keep her head and his along with it.
Lea didn't give a damn if what she taught Molly may cost her her head.
morriswalters:
Jim set the stakes for Harry's obligation to Molly, life or death. If Harry didn't want the obligation he should have let Molly die in Proven Guilty. The end result would have been the same.
SerScot:
--- Quote from: Arjan on November 03, 2021, 02:17:50 PM ---Molly had agency sure but Ghost Story is not about that, it is about Harry and Harry is responsible for how he influenced Molly.
And Harry asked her to do it. It does not mean she is not responsible but it does mean Harry is responsible too. It is not a binary thing.
--- End quote ---
Honestly, the laser focus on Harry hurts the series. Particularly the last two books they would have been much better had it been from multiple POVs. A battle of that scale seems small when seen through the eyes of one person.
Mira:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on November 03, 2021, 10:26:59 PM ---Jim set the stakes for Harry's obligation to Molly, life or death. If Harry didn't want the obligation he should have let Molly die in Proven Guilty. The end result would have been the same.
--- End quote ---
He did his best with in his capacity.. He was her mentor, not her parents, her thoughts and attitudes were shaped before he became her teacher. None of us is perfect, especially Harry, on the contrary he is all too human. It is a wonder really that Harry functions at all, from the age of 6 until he was sixteen he wasn't loved, he got no moral guidance, no support. Harry learned one lesson well, that was to survive.
Molly assisting Harry's suicide or going to C.I. even though he told her not to go, was done out of love and her part. Not unlike Murphy leaving Art's Place in Battle Ground after Harry told her to stay there to protect those who had taken shelter. She did that out of love also, and the desire to be part of the action, did Harry fail there as well because she didn't listen to him? Yes, Harry took on obligations to Molly and he failed with some of them. But it is also true that Molly isn't some fragile little doll being manipulated, she made her own choices, early on.
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