The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Mab chose Molly

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morriswalters:
There is no story reason why Sarissa need be a 300 year old virgin. I've not liked the  weird chastity belt Jim made Molly wear either.  It makes her sex a weapon. Slate raped both Lily and Sarissa, or at least Jim leads you to believe, since Harry has shown that if the Mantle had control he would. By any mainstream definition that means that neither were virgins as defined by the dictionary.

The_Sibelis:

--- Quote ---By any mainstream definition that means that neither were virgins as defined by the dictionary.
--- End quote ---
likely your mainstream definition doesn't mean jack then huh mate? Which is rather what dictionaries are, the current incarnation of a word. However virginity didn't classically have anything to do with the hymn, it was a matter of innocence, purity. In the old days they'd have a statue take the first blood, or even, pay another man to deflower your wife. And that wasn't seen as taking of virginity actually.
It's really funny though, so entrenched into your own ideas you point out multiple cases in the book now and insist they themselves must be flawed and not your perception of virginity. 1 no intercourse and two victims all qualify for a virginal role. Perhaps there's a very simple answer to that eh?

morriswalters:
Since Jim, I and I assume you all share a common lexicon it means quite a bit.  Without that commonality it would make him unreadable, since words after all are agreements among people with shared lexicons.

Arjan:
What the word means now for most people and what it meant in the past in the cultures where the concept was important is not open to any doubt.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VirginityTropes

Usually Wikipedia is quite reliable and you can find the attitudes of several cultures to this concept:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginity



Of course it is quite possible that the mantle will make you a virgin, it is magical after after all. What is shown in the short story, in Lilly’s rant in the books and in Maeves behavior and complains is that the mantle forces you to behave like one and to keep it. Being a virgin is part of the story and so part of the power.

I think that because the concept has been so idealized in stories people want to rob it from its negative connotations but that is burying your head in the sand or it might be a conscious attempt to change the meaning of the word and make the concept harmless. At the moment it is not.

Mira:

--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on October 18, 2021, 11:27:00 PM --- likely your mainstream definition doesn't mean jack then huh mate? Which is rather what dictionaries are, the current incarnation of a word. However virginity didn't classically have anything to do with the hymn, it was a matter of innocence, purity. In the old days they'd have a statue take the first blood, or even, pay another man to deflower your wife. And that wasn't seen as taking of virginity actually.
It's really funny though, so entrenched into your own ideas you point out multiple cases in the book now and insist they themselves must be flawed and not your perception of virginity. 1 no intercourse and two victims all qualify for a virginal role. Perhaps there's a very simple answer to that eh?

--- End quote ---

Sadly while I agree with you on the purity definition of a virgin, many cultures still rely on physical evidence.  The extreme is a girl or young woman is raped, and she is killed by her family,because she was raped, it is called an honor killing.  I think you could say what Carlos suffered at the hands of the Winter Lady Mantle is an example of the physical celibacy as a vital component to what she is.  Molly didn't chose to attack Carlos, on the contrary, she seemed as eager to have sex as he was.  Sex and the hormones and impulses that control it seem to be very much part of the Fae Mantles, at least in the case of the Winter Court.  The Winter Knight Mantle wants to rape and dominate everything that moves, while the Winter Lady Mantle goes in more for the virgin high priestess modal.

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