White Council Top Members

[seanham]

Harry is a powerhouse in terms of human wizards. But how powerful is he regarding the White Council (assuming he finds a way back into the Council or in comparison to the Council)? In the early books, Harry has said that he is among the 30-40 most powerful White Council Wizards. However, I do not remember Harry saying anything more recently about his power rankings in regard to the other wizards. Between the war with the Red Court, the massacre in Sicily, battle with the Mistfiend, and battles with the Fomor the Warden Old Guard has been decimated, two senior council members were killed, and other non-warden wizards were killed. With all the recent death how does Harry stack up? Is he top 20? 15? 10? Other?

[Mira]

Harry is a powerhouse in terms of human wizards. But how powerful is he regarding the White Council (assuming he finds a way back into the Council or in comparison to the Council)? In the early books, Harry has said that he is among the 30-40 most powerful White Council Wizards. However, I do not remember Harry saying anything more recently about his power rankings in regard to the other wizards. Between the war with the Red Court, the massacre in Sicily, battle with the Mistfiend, and battles with the Fomor the Warden Old Guard has been decimated, two senior council members were killed, and other non-warden wizards were killed. With all the recent death how does Harry stack up? Is he top 20? 15? 10? Other?

I believe when Harry says that he was always talking about his age group, not a bunch of seasoned mature wizards of two or three hundred years of age, where Harry himself might be if he survives that long.

[Second Aristh]

In sheer lift a big rock style magical horsepower, I’d put Harry in the top 15 wizards. That’s not the same question as most dangerous in a fight, though.

[Mira]

In sheer lift a big rock style magical horsepower, I’d put Harry in the top 15 wizards. That’s not the same question as most dangerous in a fight, though.

No, and I think any wizard on the Senior Council is a real bad ass in a fight, including Ancient Mai.

[Avernite]

In sheer lift a big rock style magical horsepower, I’d put Harry in the top 15 wizards. That’s not the same question as most dangerous in a fight, though.

Though true that it's not the same thing...

I still would put Harry darn high there. He has fought a duel with Ortega and Arianna (sp?), survived an altercation with a Titan, fought to catch the Wild Hunt... he isn't quite on Morgan's level, but he's dangerous.

And worst of all, he might actually use magic to kill outright if he's not paying attention or feels sufficiently threatened.

[TrueMonk]

If he was in top 30-40 before in terms of raw power I would think that just becoming winter knight and the associated training would put him in  in the top or at the top, perhaps depending on the time of year (battleground was the winter knight mantle at its weakest.

I think saying he is in top 30-40 in his age group would make the statement almost meaningless. Harry must have been at the top of his age group back then. He is obviously not the most skilled wizard, so to be able to do more than other wizards, especially those of his own age, he must have more power to draw on.

[Con]

I would put Harry as Top 10 to be honest. Senior Council makes 7 Klaus the Toymaker 8th then Harry. Of the ones we know of that is. It's possible Jim could pull ot a fresh newbie. There's also Cowl to consider. Marcone Namshiel as well.

Harry could duel the Blackstaff admittedly neither was going for the kill but it was more then training sparring.

[groinkick]

I would put Harry as Top 10 to be honest. Senior Council makes 7 Klaus the Toymaker 8th then Harry. Of the ones we know of that is. It's possible Jim could pull ot a fresh newbie. There's also Cowl to consider. Marcone Namshiel as well.

Harry could duel the Blackstaff admittedly neither was going for the kill but it was more then training sparring.

Is Klaus still alive?  I know Jim mentioned him, but it was during WW2 wasn't it?  He might not be around anymore.

I'm not sure if Harry was speaking about in raw power, or in capabilities/skill.  When it comes to raw power I'd put him in the top 10, maybe top 5.  Skill level?  Hmmmm I'm going to say maybe top 20 or 30.  When you combine his raw power with his skill level I'm going to say he's maybe top 15 in a fight.

No, and I think any wizard on the Senior Council is a real bad ass in a fight, including Ancient Mai.

I think Jim touched on this before and said something like power isn't just about what you can do in a duel.  I thought he also said Ancient Mai isn't very good at combat. 

I look at it kind of like a warrior vs a tactician.  A brilliant tactician can come up with ideas for battle that the warrior never would consider, but in a fight the warrior would stomp the tactician.

[Con]

Is Klaus still alive?  I know Jim mentioned him, but it was during WW2 wasn't it?  He might not be around anymore.

Yeah Ebenezar says Klaus turned down the Senior Council spot in Turn Coat to make room for Cristos.
If Carlos, Bill, Yoshimo and Chandler were all considered Elite Wardens enough to be the Senior Councils bodyguards, and Harry outranks them all that alone puts him in the top 10.

At the very least of the Wizards we know. Sure their may be some Battle Hardened Loner on the outskirts... oh wait that's Harry.

Admittedly I am talking exclusively Combat here.

I'm willing to admit overall power there are wizards with centuries of knowledge and experience.

[Mira]

It depends on their area of expertise,  we've seen what the Merlin can do, Eb, Listens to Wind, and Lord only knows what Rashid can do if pressed..  Of all of them I think Rashid get's the prize because you don't get to be a general at the Outer Gates if you are a butterfly..  Considering the deference he usually gets when he does show up to Council meetings, he is the strongest, the most dangerous, and everyone else knows it.   Actually out of all the wizards on the Senior Council, he and Harry have the most in common.

[Con]

It depends on their area of expertise,  we've seen what the Merlin can do, Eb, Listens to Wind, and Lord only knows what Rashid can do if pressed..  Of all of them I think Rashid get's the prize because you don't get to be a general at the Outer Gates if you are a butterfly..  Considering the deference he usually gets when he does show up to Council meetings, he is the strongest, the most dangerous, and everyone else knows it.   Actually out of all the wizards on the Senior Council, he and Harry have the most in common.

Agreed. Also somewhat supported by WOJ that Rashid was the last one to do what Harry's doing now, and by Rashid himself in Cold Days in that he knows "precisely" how it feels to be where Harry is now.

Ebenezar would be a close second, not just cause Grandfather relation but because Harry believes in everything he does believe in because of Ebenezar. True meaning of magic is to protect people.

[groinkick]

It depends on their area of expertise,  we've seen what the Merlin can do, Eb, Listens to Wind, and Lord only knows what Rashid can do if pressed..  Of all of them I think Rashid get's the prize because you don't get to be a general at the Outer Gates if you are a butterfly..  Considering the deference he usually gets when he does show up to Council meetings, he is the strongest, the most dangerous, and everyone else knows it.   Actually out of all the wizards on the Senior Council, he and Harry have the most in common.

" Rashid is, by far, the most dangerous of the Senior Council. Which is not the same thing as most powerful." - Jim 

[Mira]

" Rashid is, by far, the most dangerous of the Senior Council. Which is not the same thing as most powerful." - Jim

Which sort of follows the other WOJ that we were talking about in the other thread. One also has
to define "power" which you know means many different things in many different contexts, as does dangerous.  Who wins out?  The most dangerous or the most powerful?  It depends....

[Ed0517]

I always sort of expected wizard power to be on a curve. I'm gonna geek a little, forgive me, I ain't no English major. People who know me I am all BS (that didn't come out right....) . A curve asymptotic to both axes. Let the Y axis be the number of people, the x axis their power level. At near 0 power there are 8 billion people. Can't even get enough juice for Flickum Bicus. I think it was established there was roughly 2000 White council members. So... about 1 for every 4 million people. Yes, they miss an Elaine or two, but they likely have most of them. But when the Skavis was killing the Paranetters,  Elaine said he had 36 she knew of.  If they were also 4 million to 1, that is nearly half the US contingent (assuming US dispersion is the same as worldwide), yet there are still a handful in Chicago we see, and Elaine only knew some cities. Therefore, the low powers are more common than high power. More people with 100 IQs than 150s. So Harry is high-end. But that curve is flattening out REAL fast there. So a gain may not pass too many.  Though we know he moves up with Morgan gone, and likely Simon Pietrovich, and LaFortier. Luccio said even in her old body she didn't have his raw power.

Harry is not top 30 or 40 in his age cohort. Gatekeeper said he was probably the MOST powerful of his generation in Turn Coat. That 30 or 40 is compared to the old guard, the Ebs, Rashid, Langtry, Morgan.  It appears you gain power with age. Harry is getting there, but he is not there yet.   

[Ed0517]

Yeah Ebenezar says Klaus turned down the Senior Council spot in Turn Coat to make room for Cristos.
If Carlos, Bill, Yoshimo and Chandler were all considered Elite Wardens enough to be the Senior Councils bodyguards, and Harry outranks them all that alone puts him in the top 10.

I don't think they were really dedicated bodyguards for the most part. Chandler  is usually around the Seniors, yes, and guarding Ways, but Bill Meyers was a regular Warden down towards Texas, Harry was his boss. Carlos was western regional commander. Having Carlos and Bill get called up to a US fight is nothing odd. Until the last couple of books had we even seen Yoshimo? We had referenced her, when Harry was researching the ancestry of the Knights of the Cross. But just in a letter. They were NOT in the guard detail that went to Demonreach, and it should be expected Mai would have called in some heavies for that. And really, do we know where Chandler ranked? We know he had Carlos and Bill. Chandler is a guess.