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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: seanham on September 15, 2021, 09:58:50 PM
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Harry is a powerhouse in terms of human wizards. But how powerful is he regarding the White Council (assuming he finds a way back into the Council or in comparison to the Council)? In the early books, Harry has said that he is among the 30-40 most powerful White Council Wizards. However, I do not remember Harry saying anything more recently about his power rankings in regard to the other wizards. Between the war with the Red Court, the massacre in Sicily, battle with the Mistfiend, and battles with the Fomor the Warden Old Guard has been decimated, two senior council members were killed, and other non-warden wizards were killed. With all the recent death how does Harry stack up? Is he top 20? 15? 10? Other?
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Harry is a powerhouse in terms of human wizards. But how powerful is he regarding the White Council (assuming he finds a way back into the Council or in comparison to the Council)? In the early books, Harry has said that he is among the 30-40 most powerful White Council Wizards. However, I do not remember Harry saying anything more recently about his power rankings in regard to the other wizards. Between the war with the Red Court, the massacre in Sicily, battle with the Mistfiend, and battles with the Fomor the Warden Old Guard has been decimated, two senior council members were killed, and other non-warden wizards were killed. With all the recent death how does Harry stack up? Is he top 20? 15? 10? Other?
I believe when Harry says that he was always talking about his age group, not a bunch of seasoned mature wizards of two or three hundred years of age, where Harry himself might be if he survives that long.
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In sheer lift a big rock style magical horsepower, I’d put Harry in the top 15 wizards. That’s not the same question as most dangerous in a fight, though.
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In sheer lift a big rock style magical horsepower, I’d put Harry in the top 15 wizards. That’s not the same question as most dangerous in a fight, though.
No, and I think any wizard on the Senior Council is a real bad ass in a fight, including Ancient Mai.
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In sheer lift a big rock style magical horsepower, I’d put Harry in the top 15 wizards. That’s not the same question as most dangerous in a fight, though.
Though true that it's not the same thing...
I still would put Harry darn high there. He has fought a duel with Ortega and Arianna (sp?), survived an altercation with a Titan, fought to catch the Wild Hunt... he isn't quite on Morgan's level, but he's dangerous.
And worst of all, he might actually use magic to kill outright if he's not paying attention or feels sufficiently threatened.
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If he was in top 30-40 before in terms of raw power I would think that just becoming winter knight and the associated training would put him in in the top or at the top, perhaps depending on the time of year (battleground was the winter knight mantle at its weakest.
I think saying he is in top 30-40 in his age group would make the statement almost meaningless. Harry must have been at the top of his age group back then. He is obviously not the most skilled wizard, so to be able to do more than other wizards, especially those of his own age, he must have more power to draw on.
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I would put Harry as Top 10 to be honest. Senior Council makes 7 Klaus the Toymaker 8th then Harry. Of the ones we know of that is. It's possible Jim could pull ot a fresh newbie. There's also Cowl to consider. Marcone Namshiel as well.
Harry could duel the Blackstaff admittedly neither was going for the kill but it was more then training sparring.
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I would put Harry as Top 10 to be honest. Senior Council makes 7 Klaus the Toymaker 8th then Harry. Of the ones we know of that is. It's possible Jim could pull ot a fresh newbie. There's also Cowl to consider. Marcone Namshiel as well.
Harry could duel the Blackstaff admittedly neither was going for the kill but it was more then training sparring.
Is Klaus still alive? I know Jim mentioned him, but it was during WW2 wasn't it? He might not be around anymore.
I'm not sure if Harry was speaking about in raw power, or in capabilities/skill. When it comes to raw power I'd put him in the top 10, maybe top 5. Skill level? Hmmmm I'm going to say maybe top 20 or 30. When you combine his raw power with his skill level I'm going to say he's maybe top 15 in a fight.
No, and I think any wizard on the Senior Council is a real bad ass in a fight, including Ancient Mai.
I think Jim touched on this before and said something like power isn't just about what you can do in a duel. I thought he also said Ancient Mai isn't very good at combat.
I look at it kind of like a warrior vs a tactician. A brilliant tactician can come up with ideas for battle that the warrior never would consider, but in a fight the warrior would stomp the tactician.
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Is Klaus still alive? I know Jim mentioned him, but it was during WW2 wasn't it? He might not be around anymore.
Yeah Ebenezar says Klaus turned down the Senior Council spot in Turn Coat to make room for Cristos.
If Carlos, Bill, Yoshimo and Chandler were all considered Elite Wardens enough to be the Senior Councils bodyguards, and Harry outranks them all that alone puts him in the top 10.
At the very least of the Wizards we know. Sure their may be some Battle Hardened Loner on the outskirts... oh wait that's Harry.
Admittedly I am talking exclusively Combat here.
I'm willing to admit overall power there are wizards with centuries of knowledge and experience.
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It depends on their area of expertise, we've seen what the Merlin can do, Eb, Listens to Wind, and Lord only knows what Rashid can do if pressed.. Of all of them I think Rashid get's the prize because you don't get to be a general at the Outer Gates if you are a butterfly.. Considering the deference he usually gets when he does show up to Council meetings, he is the strongest, the most dangerous, and everyone else knows it. Actually out of all the wizards on the Senior Council, he and Harry have the most in common.
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It depends on their area of expertise, we've seen what the Merlin can do, Eb, Listens to Wind, and Lord only knows what Rashid can do if pressed.. Of all of them I think Rashid get's the prize because you don't get to be a general at the Outer Gates if you are a butterfly.. Considering the deference he usually gets when he does show up to Council meetings, he is the strongest, the most dangerous, and everyone else knows it. Actually out of all the wizards on the Senior Council, he and Harry have the most in common.
Agreed. Also somewhat supported by WOJ that Rashid was the last one to do what Harry's doing now, and by Rashid himself in Cold Days in that he knows "precisely" how it feels to be where Harry is now.
Ebenezar would be a close second, not just cause Grandfather relation but because Harry believes in everything he does believe in because of Ebenezar. True meaning of magic is to protect people.
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It depends on their area of expertise, we've seen what the Merlin can do, Eb, Listens to Wind, and Lord only knows what Rashid can do if pressed.. Of all of them I think Rashid get's the prize because you don't get to be a general at the Outer Gates if you are a butterfly.. Considering the deference he usually gets when he does show up to Council meetings, he is the strongest, the most dangerous, and everyone else knows it. Actually out of all the wizards on the Senior Council, he and Harry have the most in common.
" Rashid is, by far, the most dangerous of the Senior Council. Which is not the same thing as most powerful." - Jim
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" Rashid is, by far, the most dangerous of the Senior Council. Which is not the same thing as most powerful." - Jim
Which sort of follows the other WOJ that we were talking about in the other thread. One also has
to define "power" which you know means many different things in many different contexts, as does dangerous. Who wins out? The most dangerous or the most powerful? It depends....
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I always sort of expected wizard power to be on a curve. I'm gonna geek a little, forgive me, I ain't no English major. People who know me I am all BS (that didn't come out right....) . A curve asymptotic to both axes. Let the Y axis be the number of people, the x axis their power level. At near 0 power there are 8 billion people. Can't even get enough juice for Flickum Bicus. I think it was established there was roughly 2000 White council members. So... about 1 for every 4 million people. Yes, they miss an Elaine or two, but they likely have most of them. But when the Skavis was killing the Paranetters, Elaine said he had 36 she knew of. If they were also 4 million to 1, that is nearly half the US contingent (assuming US dispersion is the same as worldwide), yet there are still a handful in Chicago we see, and Elaine only knew some cities. Therefore, the low powers are more common than high power. More people with 100 IQs than 150s. So Harry is high-end. But that curve is flattening out REAL fast there. So a gain may not pass too many. Though we know he moves up with Morgan gone, and likely Simon Pietrovich, and LaFortier. Luccio said even in her old body she didn't have his raw power.
Harry is not top 30 or 40 in his age cohort. Gatekeeper said he was probably the MOST powerful of his generation in Turn Coat. That 30 or 40 is compared to the old guard, the Ebs, Rashid, Langtry, Morgan. It appears you gain power with age. Harry is getting there, but he is not there yet.
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Yeah Ebenezar says Klaus turned down the Senior Council spot in Turn Coat to make room for Cristos.
If Carlos, Bill, Yoshimo and Chandler were all considered Elite Wardens enough to be the Senior Councils bodyguards, and Harry outranks them all that alone puts him in the top 10.
I don't think they were really dedicated bodyguards for the most part. Chandler is usually around the Seniors, yes, and guarding Ways, but Bill Meyers was a regular Warden down towards Texas, Harry was his boss. Carlos was western regional commander. Having Carlos and Bill get called up to a US fight is nothing odd. Until the last couple of books had we even seen Yoshimo? We had referenced her, when Harry was researching the ancestry of the Knights of the Cross. But just in a letter. They were NOT in the guard detail that went to Demonreach, and it should be expected Mai would have called in some heavies for that. And really, do we know where Chandler ranked? We know he had Carlos and Bill. Chandler is a guess.
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The only other Wardens we know by name are Bjorn and Luccio.
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You get to be high in the Wardens by having survived the Reds. Just in Dead Beat 143 wardens were killed. So Chandler or Carlos being high in the pantheon of the Wardens is more about having survived then anything else.
On Harry's relative power or danger level there isn't really anybody that could challenge him on his ground fighting his fight. On Demonreach you'd be at hazard from both the environment which Harry can control, or of being sent to bad boy time out. In Chicago he is on his turf backed by his allies. And if he thinks before he fights he even more dangerous. He anticipated Eb in the fight at the dock and made preparations to win against the Blackstaff. Which he did. He then fought Lara and Freya and never broke a sweat.
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You get to be high in the Wardens by having survived the Reds. Just in Dead Beat 143 wardens were killed. So Chandler or Carlos being high in the pantheon of the Wardens is more about having survived then anything else.
You have to include Harry in that group as well. The war with the Reds in many ways really screwed up the Warden command structure and power curve. When the war broke out the above named Wardens were all considered "young" Wardens, but so many of them were wiped out, they became "senior." We have Harry in that horrible flash back where the ghouls captured and went feasting on young Warden trainees and Harry totally lost it. The thing I remember about that is they were all described as being teenagers, which means they were little more than young apprentices. If it is true that Harry being named "full wizard" at the age of sixteen was unusual, then these kids were either exceptional young wizards, or sacrificed as little more than cannon fodder.. Or can young apprentices chose to be future Wardens and were in the White Council's equivalent of the ROTC? And if so, was the White Council so hard up, that like the "Children's Crusade" or when the South emptied local military schools to fight, these kids were pressed into battles in which they had no chance?
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You get to be high in the Wardens by having survived the Reds. Just in Dead Beat 143 wardens were killed. So Chandler or Carlos being high in the pantheon of the Wardens is more about having survived then anything else.
On Harry's relative power or danger level there isn't really anybody that could challenge him on his ground fighting his fight. On Demonreach you'd be at hazard from both the environment which Harry can control, or of being sent to bad boy time out. In Chicago he is on his turf backed by his allies. And if he thinks before he fights he even more dangerous. He anticipated Eb in the fight at the dock and made preparations to win against the Blackstaff. Which he did. He then fought Lara and Freya and never broke a sweat.
Agreed, on every point. Particularly know he has his own magical castle.
You have to include Harry in that group as well. The war with the Reds in many ways really screwed up the Warden command structure and power curve. When the war broke out the above named Wardens were all considered "young" Wardens, but so many of them were wiped out, they became "senior." We have Harry in that horrible flash back where the ghouls captured and went feasting on young Warden trainees and Harry totally lost it. The thing I remember about that is they were all described as being teenagers, which means they were little more than young apprentices. If it is true that Harry being named "full wizard" at the age of sixteen was unusual, then these kids were either exceptional young wizards, or sacrificed as little more than cannon fodder.. Or can young apprentices chose to be future Wardens and were in the White Council's equivalent of the ROTC? And if so, was the White Council so hard up, that like the "Children's Crusade" or when the South emptied local military schools to fight, these kids were pressed into battles in which they had no chance?
I remember thinking that about the 16 year olds at the time, but then at the same time I thought given the number of Supernatural stuff marketed to teenagers. Harry Potter, Twilight, Vampire Diaries so on and so forth.
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Was just thinking about this and how the discussion may be too one dimensional. Wizard power is but one power source. The Gatekeeper may be the most dangerous, not because of his wizard capabilities but because of a Mantle he has. The same could be said for any others.
Look at Harry. He can tap into the Winter Knight Mantle, utilize the Island, and it's prisoners, has a god killing weapon, and the spear. This also doesn't take into account of favors owed by powerful Beings that one can get. Harry for example could probably get an incredible amount of power if he offered to release a prisoner.
So this in my opinion makes it a little difficult to measure true power because we don't know what power the Council members are tapping into. I believe Jim mentioned Listen's to Wind's shapeshifting ability is connected to a Mantle he has. So his awesome shape shifting abilities might not be entirely from being a wizard.
Looking at how the Wizards nature is to learn, gain power, and be secretive, it's really difficult to know where their natural power ends, and where another source of power begins.
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I remember thinking that about the 16 year olds at the time, but then at the same time I thought given the number of Supernatural stuff marketed to teenagers. Harry Potter, Twilight, Vampire Diaries so on and so forth.
Then again, those kids were captured, tortured, and eaten by those ghouls in short order, that is what set Harry off to the point where he totally lost it. Of course it didn't help that Lasciel's shadow was stoking his rage, but I think even if she wasn't in his head he still would of lost it. What happened to those kids was that horrible.
Was just thinking about this and how the discussion may be too one dimensional. Wizard power is but one power source. The Gatekeeper may be the most dangerous, not because of his wizard capabilities but because of a Mantle he has. The same could be said for any others.
We don't even know what Mantle the Gatekeeper carries, if he carries any. All we know is he traded in one of his eyes for a Nemesis detector made of the same material as the Outer Gates.. We know he can also tell what might happen in the future with it. That is he can see odds, not the future exactly, as in Turn Coat, when Harry was on the boat, Rashid did his eye thing and told Harry what his chances were, then when Harry hopped onto the island, Rashid saw a different future. Mantles also are not the same, Eb and Rashid both call being the Warden of Demonreach a Mantle, yet off the island it has a limit, as in with power boost, the shores of Lake Michigan, beyond which it is merely a title. The mantles of the Queens, Ladies, and Knights seem to have no limit.. However in the case of the Knights, they can numb pain, but not prevent serious injury.
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We don't even know what Mantle the Gatekeeper carries, if he carries any. All we know is he traded in one of his eyes for a Nemesis detector made of the same material as the Outer Gates.. We know he can also tell what might happen in the future with it. That is he can see odds, not the future exactly, as in Turn Coat, when Harry was on the boat, Rashid did his eye thing and told Harry what his chances were, then when Harry hopped onto the island, Rashid saw a different future.
He watches the Outer Gates and is called "The Gate Keeper". Almost positive that it's an actual Mantle of power. I tend to think of it as a Winter Mantle but it could be a Summer one.
Mantles also are not the same, Eb and Rashid both call being the Warden of Demonreach a Mantle, yet off the island it has a limit, as in with power boost, the shores of Lake Michigan, beyond which it is merely a title. The mantles of the Queens, Ladies, and Knights seem to have no limit.. However in the case of the Knights, they can numb pain, but not prevent serious injury.
All Mantles have some sort of limit. Harry's is leaving the Island. Mab is getting stabbed with Iron. Do that and she can't use her power.
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He watches the Outer Gates and is called "The Gate Keeper". Almost positive that it's an actual Mantle of power. I tend to think of it as a Winter Mantle but it could be a Summer one.
Or unique in that it is a Mantle that serves both Courts, more likely the Mothers. One theory that I believe has legs is that his "eye" is the eye that the three Fates shared to see the future, Mother Winter responded to the name, Atropos, which was the name of one of the three sisters.
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I don't think they were really dedicated bodyguards for the most part. Chandler is usually around the Seniors, yes, and guarding Ways, but Bill Meyers was a regular Warden down towards Texas, Harry was his boss. Carlos was western regional commander. Having Carlos and Bill get called up to a US fight is nothing odd. Until the last couple of books had we even seen Yoshimo? We had referenced her, when Harry was researching the ancestry of the Knights of the Cross. But just in a letter. They were NOT in the guard detail that went to Demonreach, and it should be expected Mai would have called in some heavies for that. And really, do we know where Chandler ranked? We know he had Carlos and Bill. Chandler is a guess.
Ramirez was in charge and got to pick the security detail, so he went with wardens he was comfortable working with and that were good in a fight. It's why he approached Harry in PT to join the security detail.
We also know that Chandler is a very trusted warden by WoJ. He's one of the few that gets solo guard duty for Edinburgh. He's also allowed to pursue his time magic specialty, even though it skirts one of the Laws.
In the end, I think its pretty safe to say that Harry is in the top 15 most dangerous wizards after BG. He's got plenty of raw power for a wizard. He's (painstakingly) slowly improving his control and efficiency with magic. He's got a long list of powerful entities where he has a strong working relationship. He has a fallback position where he's nearly invincible in Demonreach. Plus, he has the Winter Knight's mantle to draw upon and to guard his physical flank.
Let's not forget that he went head to head against the WC's top enforcer in PT. Neither was going for the kill directly, but they weren't just sparring for fun either. While Harry didn't win that fight, one mistake on either side could have changed the outcome easily. In a fair fight (not that those actually exist in this series), Harry is definitely a big-ish fish in the WC.
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Ramirez was in charge and got to pick the security detail, so he went with wardens he was comfortable working with and that were good in a fight. It's why he approached Harry in PT to join the security detail.
Ordinarily I'd agree, but I think it was a bit more complicated than that. I don't think Carlos approached Harry to be part of the security detail because he is good in a fight, though on the surface Harry is an obvious choice. No, it was when he came to inform him he was on the detail that Carlos secretly slapped the tracking tab on Harry.. No, mostly it was a ruse so they could keep a close eye on him, and this was before Thomas did what he did.
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Let's not forget that he went head to head against the WC's top enforcer in PT. Neither was going for the kill directly, but they weren't just sparring for fun either. While Harry didn't win that fight, one mistake on either side could have changed the outcome easily. In a fair fight (not that those actually exist in this series), Harry is definitely a big-ish fish in the WC.
He didn't go head to head with Eb in a magical duel. It was a duel with staves. The moment Eb got too angry he killed fake Harry with magic.
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Ordinarily I'd agree, but I think it was a bit more complicated than that. I don't think Carlos approached Harry to be part of the security detail because he is good in a fight, though on the surface Harry is an obvious choice. No, it was when he came to inform him he was on the detail that Carlos secretly slapped the tracking tab on Harry.. No, mostly it was a ruse so they could keep a close eye on him, and this was before Thomas did what he did.
I wouldn’t say mostly it was to keep an eye on Harry, but two birds one stone is always nice.
He didn't go head to head with Eb in a magical duel. It was a duel with staves. The moment Eb got too angry he killed fake Harry with magic.
Of course he did. They threw spells around, and Harry presses his physical advantage by closing in with frosty flooring and staff fighting.
Harry would have lost a purely magical duel, but there aren’t any of those outside an Accords duel. The point is Harry put up a respectable fight against the WC’s top enforcer. He’d stand a better chance against weaker opponents, i.e. most every other wizard in the world.
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Of course he did. They threw spells around, and Harry presses his physical advantage by closing in with frosty flooring and staff fighting.
Harry would have lost a purely magical duel, but there aren’t any of those outside an Accords duel. The point is Harry put up a respectable fight against the WC’s top enforcer. He’d stand a better chance against weaker opponents, i.e. most every other wizard in the world.
Until the end that is, we don't know how much Eb was holding back until he totally lost it.
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Harry would have lost a purely magical duel, but there aren’t any of those outside an Accords duel. The point is Harry put up a respectable fight against the WC’s top enforcer. He’d stand a better chance against weaker opponents, i.e. most every other wizard in the world.
Agreed.
Until the end that is, we don't know how much Eb was holding back until he totally lost it.
I mean if he had Blackstaff he could have straight up killed him, but yeah it was more than a friendly sparring match. Harry held his own is the point, puts his combat abilities in the top 10.
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I'm going to be a bit contrarian here. I don't think Harry is actually that good at magical combat. I'll bet that he's maybe top 50 in the council, which considering their casualties over the past ten years is not as great as it seems.
To use a combat sport analogy to explain, I'd say that Harry is a good puncher, but not a good boxer. Like a lot of very hard hitters, it's a crutch for him and he leans on it way too much. His duel with Hannah Asher was quite ironic, given that he was essentially fighting himself from only a few years prior.
We've seen several examples of far less -- let's use the word energetic, rather than powerful -- practitioners demonstrate that they could be more than a match for Harry.
It's actually a good thing for the narrative that he is so bad. Given the potential power he wields, if he were also very skilled, it would lower the stakes.
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I mean if he had Blackstaff he could have straight up killed him, but yeah it was more than a friendly sparring match. Harry held his own is the point, puts his combat abilities in the top 10.
Eb didn't need the Blackstaff to defeat Harry, his arsenal of skills honed over three hundred years or more were enough for that. No, I think Eb was trying to pull his punches some, this is he grandson after all. However he needed to stop him, and Harry is powerful no argument there. Powerful enough that when he wouldn't give up it triggered the fail safe that killed his double.
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My opinion is that there are levels of wizards. The top tier wizards are the Senior Council members. So less than ten. These wizards are the best, and most powerful, and have access to secret power that the lower tiers don't have. They are head and shoulders above the next tier. I see Dresden as being in the top few wizards of the 2nd tier. He's head and shoulders above the third tier.
So it's like top tier has maybe 10 wizards (if that)
Second tier has like 50 wizards. I see Harry as in the top of this tier, and able to reach the next tier eventually. (If you minus Demonreach and Winter Knight Mantle)
Third tier is like 16 year old Harry Dresden. Powerful, capable, but can't stand with the big kids.
Fourth tier is where the bulk of the wizard population is.
I'm just spit balling here
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We don't actually have any personal examples of White Council Wizards outside of combat.
Ancient Mai is supposed to be less combat oriented, but seemed confident enough in Turn Coat and is a Senior Council member.
Similarly Martha Liberty, she has some empathic spirit magic.
Listens to Winds is an outright badass despite being a healer.
Rashid regularly fights at the Outer Gates and has some elements of foresight.
Klaus the Toymaker- WOJ is he beat a bunch of Nazi sorcerers with a wind up duck.
Langtry stopped the entire Red Court with one ward.
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Ramirez was in charge and got to pick the security detail, so he went with wardens he was comfortable working with and that were good in a fight. It's why he approached Harry in PT to join the security detail.
The event was in the US. A US regional commander is the logical choice to head security. Harry is one, but he also has ties with one of the other parties, could be a conflict. Plus, Harry is not really an organizer here...
We also know that Chandler is a very trusted warden by WoJ. He's one of the few that gets solo guard duty for Edinburgh. He's also allowed to pursue his time magic specialty, even though it skirts one of the Laws.
Chandler is mentioned as always being around the Seniors. He's why I said "for the most part" He works security at the Ways too. His role with the SC is not exactly defined, but he could be a bodyguard. He didn't go to Demonreach, but maybe he usually works with Martha - she was in Chicago, but not Demonreach.
In the end, I think its pretty safe to say that Harry is in the top 15 most dangerous wizards after BG. He's got plenty of raw power for a wizard. He's (painstakingly) slowly improving his control and efficiency with magic. He's got a long list of powerful entities where he has a strong working relationship. He has a fallback position where he's nearly invincible in Demonreach. Plus, he has the Winter Knight's mantle to draw upon and to guard his physical flank.
i don't think we know enough of the other wizards to rank him this high. If he has 30 older wizards with more raw power - and more experience - at least a few are going to be combat-oriented, and ahead of him. Where, for example, is Klaus the Toymaker? They went thru several other names before they got to Eb when he took the seat too.
In a fair fight (not that those actually exist in this series), Harry is definitely a big-ish fish in the WC.
big-ish? Sure. But if there are a couple thousand wizards, 50 is pretty big-ish too.
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I'm going to be a bit contrarian here. I don't think Harry is actually that good at magical combat. I'll bet that he's maybe top 50 in the council, which considering their casualties over the past ten years is not as great as it seems.
To use a combat sport analogy to explain, I'd say that Harry is a good puncher, but not a good boxer. Like a lot of very hard hitters, it's a crutch for him and he leans on it way too much. His duel with Hannah Asher was quite ironic, given that he was essentially fighting himself from only a few years prior.
We've seen several examples of far less -- let's use the word energetic, rather than powerful -- practitioners demonstrate that they could be more than a match for Harry.
It's actually a good thing for the narrative that he is so bad. Given the potential power he wields, if he were also very skilled, it would lower the stakes.
I agree. In fact, I'll give an example IN a combat sport.
A wise veteran fighter, as it happens, an ex-champ himself, faces an up-and-comer. Max Schmeling watches film, one of the first athletes to break down film, and when asked why, Max supposedly says "I think I see something."
His opponent is a young Joe Louis. Fast, strong, can hit. Joe Louis is Harry. Joe didn't have good management, was very rough on his skills, getting by on physical gifts.
They meet, and the supposedly over the hill Max knocks Joe out in the 12th.
2 years later, the rematch. Joe's team has been replaced, his new trainer is not an idiot. Joe's skills have been polished somewhat, he is not as crude. Joe knocks out Max in the first.
Max is a better trained wizard. Maybe even Carlos. not as much power, but uses what he has well. Well schooled, well trained. Skills gets him a narrow decision over raw power.
Harry is Joe. raw power carried him far, until he reached a level it was not enough. But Joe took a step back, and honed his craft. Got better teaching. With even somewhat close skills, his gifts would let him dominate a rematch.
Carlos might be close to Harry now in a fight, skills vs. strength, but with a little work, Harry crushes him.
(in case you care, early in his career Joe dropped his left after a jab - a common amateurish mistake. It invited the right cross as a counter. Max had a good one. After the loss to Schmeling they fixed this flaw. Louis then became one of the most dominant heavyweight champs.)
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However, Harry has been training, he isn't the same wizard he was pre-Proven Guilty. To teach Molly he has had to buckle down and teach himself as well, everything from his Latin to his abilty to make veils is vastly improved. Because of his run in with Corpse Taker, he and Molly sparred mentally beyond the ineffective method that the White Council allows, and it proved critical. He's improved his shields, he also has a new staff that he carved on Demonreach.. He has trained hard physically because it helps him to mentally control the Winter Knight's Mantle. It enhances his many skills and allows him to use ice magic... Yeah, he is Joe Louis, but he isn't an aging out of shape Joe Louis that takes his skills for granted, he cannot afford to.. Joe Louis got knocked out, Harry could be dead.
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Rough thought. Back when Harry said he was in the top 40 for strength, but as we've seen, strength counts for only so much Luccio said she was weaker than Harry back in her old body, but she was head of the Warders and I feel very certain could have taken Harry. So, lets give it a x3 multiplier for skill and say Harry used to be top 120 wizards in a fight.
Since then we've seen Harry significantly increase in skill and add power through deals (winter knight, soulfire). We know from WoJ that most older, and certainly all the senior council have a tendency to do the same (gain secret sources of power), so that might skew Harry's estimate because in his youth he probably wasn't accounting for all the deals these guys had going for them outside of natural strength.
Lets say the pool was actually 50% bigger because Harry didn't account for deals, but Harry has increased his strength to top 30 and skill modifier is now only x2. 30x1.5x2= top 90. Now say at least 10 of these died in the war and you put Harry in the top 30-45 most powerful still, and in the top 80 most dangerous. It might be less than that if you are talking about in a straight up fight though, since Harry specializes in brawling. Within that, obviously, it depends the kind of fight (if it is close enough to get physical I think Harry goes into top 20), terrain, ability to plan, etc. But if Harry had gone into the meeting with the Vampire in Edinburgh, I bet there were at least 30 people present who could have shut him down.
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We could try to make a list of wizards who would probably win a fight against Dresden on neutral territory and both fresh and perhaps one with wizards where it would be roughly equal and one with those that would probably loose. To get 8t started I think:
Probably win
The Merlin
Eb
Listens to wind
Rashid
Molly
Roughly equal
Cowl
Kumori
Marcone
Probably loose
Carlos
Chandler
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If Carlos, Bill, Yoshimo and Chandler were all considered Elite Wardens enough to be the Senior Councils bodyguards, and Harry outranks them all that alone puts him in the top 10.
Not going to lie, I was really, really disappointed when Bill, Yoshimo, and Chandler FINALLY got a chance to fight on the page, and got completely curbstomped. It wasn't even close. They even had a freaking Sasquatch as backup and got their teeth kicked in.
I don't think they were even in Harry's league, to be honest, at least not by Battle Ground. No idea how they'd have measured up pre-Changes, but Winter Knight Harry completely outclasses them, in my reading of it.
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Not going to lie, I was really, really disappointed when Bill, Yoshimo, and Chandler FINALLY got a chance to fight on the page, and got completely curbstomped. It wasn't even close. They even had a freaking Sasquatch as backup and got their teeth kicked in.
I don't think they were even in Harry's league, to be honest, at least not by Battle Ground. No idea how they'd have measured up pre-Changes, but Winter Knight Harry completely outclasses them, in my reading of it.
Yeah, one wonders if Harry had decided to really object and resist the sex-scan and innuendo when they stopped him and Murphy upon their return from the Raith Estate how it would have turned out. Especially with Murphy as back up, even though she was crippled. Also if Chandler would have joined his fellow Wardens or would he have been as conflicted as he seemed and either stayed out of the fight or actually joined Harry?
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Not going to lie, I was really, really disappointed when Bill, Yoshimo, and Chandler FINALLY got a chance to fight on the page, and got completely curbstomped. It wasn't even close. They even had a freaking Sasquatch as backup and got their teeth kicked in.
I don't think they were even in Harry's league, to be honest, at least not by Battle Ground. No idea how they'd have measured up pre-Changes, but Winter Knight Harry completely outclasses them, in my reading of it.
It was against blampires with no prep time. I think that was the only way it could have reasonably gone, especially with Drakul there to keep Harry's River Shoulders's attention. They're all bad news.
Numbers makes a big difference in a fight. I think individually, Harry could have taken down any of the wardens on that road, but altogether is much much harder.
Yeah, one wonders if Harry had decided to really object and resist the sex-scan and innuendo when they stopped him and Murphy upon their return from the Raith Estate how it would have turned out. Especially with Murphy as back up, even though she was crippled. Also if Chandler would have joined his fellow Wardens or would he have been as conflicted as he seemed and either stayed out of the fight or actually joined Harry?
I think Chandler is more loyal to Ramirez than to Harry tbh. I doubt he would have gone rogue to help him against the other wardens.
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Jury's out on Steed for me. I can't get a good enough read on him. He could have just been playing Good Cop in that scene, but then again he's also the one who warns Harry about the attack on the Council in Changes. Then again again, he's also one of the ONLY young wardens left at liberty by that point, too, which means he's perceived as trustworthy by enough people with authority (who generally oppose Harry).
I like to think that his time-related magic specialization is giving him clearer glimpses into the future than anyone suspects. I think he's playing his part as best he can and carefully wriggling out of situations in order to support the best outcomes he can perceive. It's also possible that he knows more about people's pasts than he lets on, and uses that information to judge their character more accurately. Knowing someone's past alters the way you perceive them and your behavior toward/around them (at least it does for most people, in my experience).
I don't know what Chandler's deal is, to be honest. Though I fully anticipate him being the catalyst for whatever time travel book we eventually get.
It was against blampires with no prep time. I think that was the only way it could have reasonably gone, especially with Drakul there to keep Harry's River Shoulders's attention. They're all bad news.
Numbers makes a big difference in a fight. I think individually, Harry could have taken down any of the wardens on that road, but altogether is much much harder.
My issue isn't so much with the fact that they lost; it's that we finally get to see Harry's war buddies fight, and they get wiped. They've got a reputation for being survivors, tough customers, veterans of a bloody and brutal protracted conflict (and then a second one, against the Fomor). I would've liked to have seen them win a fight or three before this encounter, to justify the reputation Harry gives them. It's not quite the Worf Effect, because you at least saw Worf kick plenty of keisters before he started getting his own kicked in return, but it left a similar taste in my mouth.
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It was against blampires with no prep time. I think that was the only way it could have reasonably gone, especially with Drakul there to keep Harry's River Shoulders's attention. They're all bad news.
They knew they were about to go into battle one way or another when they came across Mavra, Drakul and company, if they are good warriors, and Wardens supposedly are, then they should have been ready.
Numbers makes a big difference in a fight. I think individually, Harry could have taken down any of the wardens on that road, but altogether is much much harder.
But he also had Murphy at his back, the two of them have squared off against enemies with much tougher odds and still won.
I think Chandler is more loyal to Ramirez than to Harry tbh. I doubt he would have gone rogue to help him against the other wardens.
Maybe not full rouge, but at the same time he could have held back just enough not to be of help against Harry.
My issue isn't so much with the fact that they lost; it's that we finally get to see Harry's war buddies fight, and they get wiped. They've got a reputation for being survivors, tough customers, veterans of a bloody and brutal protracted conflict (and then a second one, against the Fomor). I would've liked to have seen them win a fight or three before this encounter, to justify the reputation Harry gives them. It's not quite the Worf Effect, because you at least saw Worf kick plenty of keisters before he started getting his own kicked in return, but it left a similar taste in my mouth.
Agreed, they knew they'd be facing battle shortly, so they should have been ready for anything. Like you said, they may have still gone down, but they should have taken some with them before they did go down. After all Harry, Rivershoulders, and Listens to Wind, yes, and Carlos had the same amount of warning and were able to put up a fight.
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They knew they were about to go into battle one way or another when they came across Mavra, Drakul and company, if they are good warriors, and Wardens supposedly are, then they should have been ready.
Drakul by himself could have stomped all of them, even if they had a year to plan. They can't beat him.
Not going to lie, I was really, really disappointed when Bill, Yoshimo, and Chandler FINALLY got a chance to fight on the page, and got completely curbstomped. It wasn't even close. They even had a freaking Sasquatch as backup and got their teeth kicked in.
I don't think they were even in Harry's league, to be honest, at least not by Battle Ground. No idea how they'd have measured up pre-Changes, but Winter Knight Harry completely outclasses them, in my reading of it.
Harry survived because he was for Drakul. Mavra could have killed Dresden in an instant. He was helpless. He wouldn't have faired any better if Mavra wanted to kill him like the others.
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Harry survived because he was for Drakul. Mavra could have killed Dresden in an instant. He was helpless. He wouldn't have faired any better if Mavra wanted to kill him like the others.
Huh? I don't remember Harry being "for" Drakul.. Harry fared better because when he sneezed huge iron anvils fell out of the sky.. Then again as Listens to Wind said, if you fight these kinds of creatures to a draw, it is a win..
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My issue isn't so much with the fact that they lost; it's that we finally get to see Harry's war buddies fight, and they get wiped. They've got a reputation for being survivors, tough customers, veterans of a bloody and brutal protracted conflict (and then a second one, against the Fomor). I would've liked to have seen them win a fight or three before this encounter, to justify the reputation Harry gives them. It's not quite the Worf Effect, because you at least saw Worf kick plenty of keisters before he started getting his own kicked in return, but it left a similar taste in my mouth.
They get some nice time like that in one of the comics. War Cry, I think? The problem is that there are only so many pages you can fit in before the BAT. Maybe a short story from Ramirez's perspective could be done. It would be neat to have him dealing with losing them while doing flashbacks to some time they worked well together without Harry.
They knew they were about to go into battle one way or another when they came across Mavra, Drakul and company, if they are good warriors, and Wardens supposedly are, then they should have been ready.
Meh, dealing with blampires necessitates specialized prep more than most fights. That crew was expecting wizard necromancers, not blampires. Not even usual blampires like Harry fought on Thomas's birthday, elder blampires.
In the end, they do seem to have taken out two of them on their own. Only Mavra, tentacle guy, and the twins are mentioned of the original Drakul + Mavra + four elder blampires. = 7 figures.
I don't think they had as bad a showing for their fight as people are saying. Just a lot of it was off page.
But he also had Murphy at his back, the two of them have squared off against enemies with much tougher odds and still won.
Two on four where your mortal is in bad physical shape is not a good combination, even if you stipulate that they've lucked out of tougher odds before. That wasn't a fight that Harry and Murphy could have won without extreme luck and severe injury to themselves or their friends.
Maybe not full rouge, but at the same time he could have held back just enough not to be of help against Harry.
Meh, Chandler strikes me as more aligned with WC ideals than Ramirez, and he was not going to side with Harry against the others or stay neutral. I don't think Chandler dislikes Harry at all, but Harry is not going to be in the first few items on his priority list of loyalties.
Huh? I don't remember Harry being "for" Drakul.. Harry fared better because when he sneezed huge iron anvils fell out of the sky.. Then again as Listens to Wind said, if you fight these kinds of creatures to a draw, it is a win..
Yep, it was around when they showed Bill's and Yoshimo's bodies. Harry was intentionally spared, and Carlos was next on the chopping block.
The other twin pointed at me. “Give it to my sister. She must restore herself.”
“His blood is not for the likes of you or me,” Mavra replied calmly. “Starborn are for the Master.”
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It's interesting to me that people seem to forget that a lot of Mab's "physical therapy" was about sharpening his magical skills in Cold Days. Harry's much better, faster, and more efficient at casting than he was before, in addition to being pushed to a physical peak it appears he's bothering to maintain having achieved.
I rather suspect that this is all relevant to Mirror, Mirror- native Harry is a bit lazy, reliant on his natural brawn- physical and magical- over precision. Main timeline Harry was forced to go without crutches, develop his magical skills, and achieve the latent physical potential due to the pain suppression of the Knight Mantle.
I rather suspect Harry will find himself summoned into something like a waterfall that he just Hulks his way out of, to the total surprise of alt-Harry. Or uses his new ice powers for same- force the water into ice against his body, now he's no longer in running water.
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Yep, it was around when they showed Bill's and Yoshimo's bodies. Harry was intentionally spared, and Carlos was next on the chopping bloc
Mavra says a lot of things, that doesn't mean it will go her way. It still was a draw, and as Listens to Wind says, that's a win..
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Yeah, he is Joe Louis, but he isn't an aging out of shape Joe Louis that takes his skills for granted, he cannot afford to.. Joe Louis got knocked out, Harry could be dead.
I said he was young - at the time of the first Schmeling fight, Joe Louis was 22 and had yet to fight for the title. Crude and strong - like Harry. Couple of tips away from being a dominator.
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Mavra says a lot of things, that doesn't mean it will go her way. It still was a draw, and as Listens to Wind says, that's a win..
She literally had Dresden in a position he couldn't get out. She could have ripped his head from his body. Harry's inner dialogue was that he was powerless. Dresden was caught off guard by her, but because of the Black Court's incredible speed, it's likely that the others were caught off guard.
I think that 1 vs 1 Harry, or the others could have probably handled any one of the Black Court vamps there but it was a group of vamps moving at super speed.
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She literally had Dresden in a position he couldn't get out. She could have ripped his head from his body. Harry's inner dialogue was that he was powerless. Dresden was caught off guard by her, but because of the Black Court's incredible speed, it's likely that the others were caught off guard.
I think that 1 vs 1 Harry, or the others could have probably handled any one of the Black Court vamps there but it was a group of vamps moving at super speed.
But they handled them, Harry, Carlos, Listens to Wind, and River Shoulders lived to fight another day, as Listen says, that's a win.. Mavra could have done this or that, but she didn't succeed.
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We could try to make a list of wizards who would probably win a fight against Dresden on neutral territory and both fresh and perhaps one with wizards where it would be roughly equal and one with those that would probably loose. To get 8t started I think:
Probably win
The Merlin
Eb
Listens to wind
Rashid
Molly
Roughly equal
Cowl
Kumori
Marcone
Probably loose
Carlos
Chandler
Arguably, Molly doesn't count - she isn't Council anymore, I think, since becoming Winter Lady. Non-winter Molly loses.
Cowl takes Harry, easily.
I don't think we saw enough of Kumori to be sure, but I tend to lean Harry,
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Cowl takes Harry, easily.
Really? That hasn't happened in spite of the so called advantage Cowl supposedly has, as in age and experience.
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Really? That hasn't happened in spite of the so called advantage Cowl supposedly has, as in age and experience.
There have only been like three chances total? One in DB when they met and Cowl was playing with Harry (I don't count the end there because Harry sucker punched him when he was managing the Darkhallow). One in WN when Cowl zapped him through Little Chicago and busted it. Then again in the Raith Deeps when he let in the uber-ghouls and the pteradactyl before leaving altogether and not really fighting Harry.
Cowl has shown Senior Council level of power and control (possibly because he's Simon, a former Senior Council member). I think he takes down Harry in a fair fight, but with the winter knight's mantle it could be closer. Kinda like the Harry/Eb fight.
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There have only been like three chances total? One in DB when they met and Cowl was playing with Harry (I don't count the end there because Harry sucker punched him when he was managing the Darkhallow). One in WN when Cowl zapped him through Little Chicago and busted it. Then again in the Raith Deeps when he let in the uber-ghouls and the pteradactyl before leaving altogether and not really fighting Harry.
Cowl has shown Senior Council level of power and control (possibly because he's Simon, a former Senior Council member). I think he takes down Harry in a fair fight, but with the winter knight's mantle it could be closer. Kinda like the Harry/Eb fight.
Yet, those times you mention, compared to Cowl, Harry is very young and inexperienced without
the aid of a mantle of any kind, further though the shadow of Lasciel was in his head for part of the time, she didn't enhance his power or magic. Still he held his own, I disagree that Cowl was simply toying with him in their first meeting, Harry has grown since they last met in knowlege, mantel, and experience.
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Yet, those times you mention, compared to Cowl, Harry is very young and inexperienced without
the aid of a mantle of any kind, further though the shadow of Lasciel was in his head for part of the time, she didn't enhance his power or magic. Still he held his own, I disagree that Cowl was simply toying with him in their first meeting, Harry has grown since they last met in knowlege, mantel, and experience.
Cowl was definitely going easy on Harry in their first meeting.
"Just as well," Cowl murmured. "I have wanted to see for myself what has the Wardens so nervous about you."
The cold wind rose again, and the hairs on the back of my neck rose up stiffly. A flash of sensation flickered over me as Cowl drew in power. A lot of power.
...
I've traded practice blows with my old master Justin DuMorne, himself at one time a Warden. I fought him in earnest, too, and won. I've tested my strength in practice duels against the mentor who succeeded him, Ebenezar McCoy. My faerie godmother, the Leanansidhe, has a seriously nasty right hook, metaphysically speaking, and I've even gone up against the least of the Queens of Faerie. Throw in a couple of demons, various magical constructs, a thirteen-story fall in a runaway elevator, half a dozen spellslingers of one amount of nasty or another, and I've seen more sheer mystic violence than most wizards in the business. I've beaten them all, or at least survived them, and I've got the scars to show for it.
Cowl hit me harder than any of them.
...
Cowl walked slowly toward me down the sidewalk, all cloak and hood and shadows. "Disappointing," he said. "I hoped you were ready for the heavyweight division."
...
Cowl kept walking toward me. Hell's bells, it didn't even look like he was trying all that hard.
I got a cold feeling in my chest.
Harry has grown since DB, but not enough to make a match of Cowl yet.
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But they handled them, Harry, Carlos, Listens to Wind, and River Shoulders lived to fight another day, as Listen says, that's a win.. Mavra could have done this or that, but she didn't succeed.
They didn't handle them. Toot and the little folk showed up, and started attacking with garlic. If not for them, Harry and the others would have been killed.
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They didn't handle them. Toot and the little folk showed up, and started attacking with garlic. If not for them, Harry and the others would have been killed.
But that is part of it, isn't it? Winning is a team effort, Harry has that kind of loyalty, Mavra never will.
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I'd put Cowl Senior Council level as well.
Mavra was the drummer so weakest of Drakuls entourage.
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I'd put Cowl Senior Council level as well.
Mavra was the drummer so weakest of Drakuls entourage.
But in the end it isn't about one on one.. It is about leadership, it is about those who will follow that lead. That's what really scares the Senior Council, yeah, anyone one of them one on one is stronger than Harry and most likely could take him, but it isn't about that. When the flying squid thingies were raising havoc when the battle begun, there were Senior Council members present, for all their personal power and knowledge they couldn't do squat in an effective manner to stop them. Enter Harry, a word to his loyal Za'Gard, and they took them.. Same against Mavra and Drakul, yeah, one on one, they were screwed, three Wardens, killed or dispatched to another dimension.. But while it was bad, they didn't win, not because one of the wizards or the sash-quash was badder than the rest, but because of Harry's loyal little army, following orders to go and get the garlic..
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But in the end it isn't about one on one.. It is about leadership, it is about those who will follow that lead. That's what really scares the Senior Council, yeah, anyone one of them one on one is stronger than Harry and most likely could take him, but it isn't about that. When the flying squid thingies were raising havoc when the battle begun, there were Senior Council members present, for all their personal power and knowledge they couldn't do squat in an effective manner to stop them. Enter Harry, a word to his loyal Za'Gard, and they took them.. Same against Mavra and Drakul, yeah, one on one, they were screwed, three Wardens, killed or dispatched to another dimension.. But while it was bad, they didn't win, not because one of the wizards or the sash-quash was badder than the rest, but because of Harry's loyal little army, following orders to go and get the garlic..
By that logic, Harry is more powerful than Mab, Titania, the Erlking, and Odin combined because he was the only one that could take down Ethniu after they tried. He'd be the most powerful wizard in the world by leaps and bounds. That's not what this thread is about. It's about where Harry ranks among wizards in a fair fight.
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By that logic, Harry is more powerful than Mab, Titania, the Erlking, and Odin combined because he was the only one that could take down Ethniu after they tried. He'd be the most powerful wizard in the world by leaps and bounds. That's not what this thread is about. It's about where Harry ranks among wizards in a fair fight.
He may be before it is over, especially if he is going to be among the leaders in the BAT.
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But that is part of it, isn't it? Winning is a team effort, Harry has that kind of loyalty, Mavra never will.
No, it isn't. The discussion was how Harry specifically, plus LtW, River Shoulders, and the wardens did vs Drakul and the Black Court Vampires. The result was a loss. "surviving is a win" was LtW referring to how he and River Shoulders did vs Drakul. The vampires suffered no casualties while team Dresden lost people (who are now probably vampires).
Also as I stated previously, Harry lost. He was dead to rights and got rescued. Being rescued by someone isn't a victory for you. If I was being held hostage and police saved me, it wouldn't be my victory.
So Harry and the Wardens got beat by the BCV's.
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No, it isn't. The discussion was how Harry specifically, plus LtW, River Shoulders, and the wardens did vs Drakul and the Black Court Vampires. The result was a loss. "surviving is a win" was LtW referring to how he and River Shoulders did vs Drakul. The vampires suffered no casualties while team Dresden lost people (who are now probably vampires).
Also as I stated previously, Harry lost. He was dead to rights and got rescued. Being rescued by someone isn't a victory for you. If I was being held hostage and police saved me, it wouldn't be my victory.
So Harry and the Wardens got beat by the BCV's.
Yeah, they took losses, but they weren't all wiped out. I think a "win" as far as Mavra and Drakul are concerned is a dead and turned Harry.. They didn't get that.
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No, it isn't. The discussion was how Harry specifically, plus LtW, River Shoulders, and the wardens did vs Drakul and the Black Court Vampires. The result was a loss. "surviving is a win" was LtW referring to how he and River Shoulders did vs Drakul. The vampires suffered no casualties while team Dresden lost people (who are now probably vampires).
Also as I stated previously, Harry lost. He was dead to rights and got rescued. Being rescued by someone isn't a victory for you. If I was being held hostage and police saved me, it wouldn't be my victory.
So Harry and the Wardens got beat by the BCV's.
The wardens did manage to take down a couple blampires from the large group of them before Harry pays attention to them again. At least, they don't get mentioned again. Your main point stands, though.
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I'd put Cowl Senior Council level as well.
Mavra was the drummer so weakest of Drakuls entourage.
The technical term is “the Ringo”.
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The technical term is “the Ringo”.
Or a "Hard Day's Night.."
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Just out of curiosity, exactly how do wizards fight fair? Given the rules, assuming you aren't the Black Staff, you can't kill with magic, you can't enthrall with magic. So what do you do? If it's down to fisticuffs Harry tags everybody shorter and lighter than he is. If it comes down to ordinance, watch Carlos, he carries grenades. Harry put down Corpse Taker with a 44 to the back of the head. Kincaid killed Harry with a sniper rifle. And the Red Court used sarin gas to kill thousands including wizards.
In the face off with the Black Court nobody won. Everybody called it a day and blew the vicinity. Winning involves getting whatever prize you were playing for. It looks like nobody got everything they wanted.
Was Drakul trying to stage a Dark Hallow?
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Just out of curiosity, exactly how do wizards fight fair? Given the rules, assuming you aren't the Black Staff, you can't kill with magic, you can't enthrall with magic. So what do you do? If it's down to fisticuffs Harry tags everybody shorter and lighter than he is. If it comes down to ordinance, watch Carlos, he carries grenades. Harry put down Corpse Taker with a 44 to the back of the head. Kincaid killed Harry with a sniper rifle. And the Red Court used sarin gas to kill thousands including wizards.
In the face off with the Black Court nobody won. Everybody called it a day and blew the vicinity. Winning involves getting whatever prize you were playing for. It looks like nobody got everything they wanted.
Was Drakul trying to stage a Dark Hallow?
A fair fight wouldn't necessarily be to the death, but this is all theoretical anyway.
The explanation in BG was that Drakul was kind of out on a whim to gather information. He could either build up an army of zombies, or the Accords forces could come to stop him, and he'd get an idea of their capabilities and possibly some new blampire recruits (which he managed to do). He didn't much care himself whether or not Ethniu and the Fomor actually succeeded in Chicago.
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What about the Bottom Members? Those who just barely qualify? Luccio is amongst those at the moment.
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What about the Bottom Members? Those who just barely qualify? Luccio is amongst those at the moment.
Nah, Luccio got dropped down a few pegs, but I don't think she's near the bottom. They don't conjure fiery lasers at a moment's notice. Closer to average wizard, I'd say. Unfortunately, average wizard can't keep up in most of the fights that Harry gets in nowadays. Before DB, she was in the running for Senior Council level wizard.